RE: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control

February 13, 2005

In a message dated 2/13/05 3:26:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, hl@...

writes:

> Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by

> the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree

> in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support

> him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not

> to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiently or otherwise he

> fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is

> unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone

> else.

>

> Theodore Roosevelt

___

Go Theo, Go Theo...

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

February 13, 2005

>but entirely another to start a new thread with an off-topic post consisting

>of little more than a litany of insulting overgeneralizations wrapped in a

>thin veneer of humor.

Inasmuch as that message cracked up my ultra-conservative girlfriend, I

think your humorless contingent is rather small, .

-

February 13, 2005

In a message dated 2/13/05 3:34:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,

implode7@... writes:

> Perhaps, rather than looking at it as socialism influencing people to adopt

> these policies, you can look at them as policies that have been won (and

are

> now rapidly being lost) by the real struggles of people. Bush

> acquiesces to some of this not because he is in any way influenced by

> Socialism (the very idea is totally ludicrous) but because there is a

status

> quo now which he cannot simple dismantle on command. He is trying his best

> though, just as I suspect that you would, your little signature quote about

> compassion notwithstanding.

_____

Yeah, I think that's true to a certain extent. I can't see inside Bush's

brain, but it does seem probable that Bush supports the prescription drug plan

and Head First as a calculated move to try to rid neoconservatism of its blunt,

selfish edge.

But also, I'd have to brush up on economic history a bit, but weren't many

economic theories that have come to the fore in modern history such as

Keynesianism born out of the struggle between capitalism and socialism and the

perceived crisis of capitalism?

I don't think that Bush is a closet socialist or anything ridiculous like

that, but it's difficult to imagine that such an influential movement in the

past

didn't leave it's mark on modern politics. Had their never been a socialist

movement, never been a socialist critique of capitalism on moral, ethical, and

economic grounds, then there never would have been a real threat to

capitalism, and an effort to save capitalism by synthesizing it with elements of

the

movements that posed the greatest threats to it.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

February 13, 2005

-

Two things.

First:

>I use a Webster's. Perhaps you should check your dictionary.

I'm afraid you should follow your own advice. Here for your reading

comprehension pleasure is the definition of " socialist " from

Miriam-Webster's online dictionary.

>>Main Entry: so·cial·ist

>>Pronunciation: 'sO-sh( & -)list

>>Function: noun

>>1 : one who advocates or practices socialism

>>2 capitalized : a member of a party or political group advocating socialism

That's not especially useful by itself, so here's the Miriam-Webster

definition of socialism:

>>Main Entry: so·cial·ism

>>Pronunciation: 'sO-sh & - " li-z & m

>>Function: noun

>>1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective

>>or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production

>>and distribution of goods

>>2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private

>>property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of

>>production are owned and controlled by the state

>>3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism

>>and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay

>>according to work done

Kerry did not advocate collective or governmental ownership and

administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

Kerry did not advocate the abolition of private property.

Kerry is not secretly (or publicly) a communist who intends ultimately

to remake the country along communist lines.

>If you look up the definition of Fascist, you clearly would find that

> Bush is not a Fascist, unless you are adept at blinding yourself to

>the truth. Being the leader of a sovereign nation and making decisions

>based on that fact and in order to keep that nation sovereign and safe,

>does not by definition make one a Fascist...and neither does your or

>anyone else's opinion.

Oh well, what the heck. Here's your dictionary of choice's definition of

fascism:

>>Main Entry: fas·cism

>>Pronunciation: 'fa- " shi-z & m also 'fa- " si-

>>Function: noun

>>Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from

>>Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces

>>1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as

>>that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the

>>individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed

>>by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and

>>forcible suppression of opposition

>>2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or

>>dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J.

>>W. Aldridge>

It's arguable whether Bush exalts nation above the individual. He

definitely behaves dictatorially and forcibly suppresses his

opposition. And it's arguable whether his policies foster severe economic

and social regimentation -- certainly not even remotely to the degree that

late-stage fascist regimes do.

So I'd say that by your dictionary's definition Bush has certain fascist

tendencies, but it's much too early to call him a fascist proper. If he

contrives to stay in office past his second term, then yes, but otherwise no.

Second:

>http://www.auctionsniper.com/?how=shelleyslifeearthlink (DOT) net

I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to remove this advertisement from

your sig.

-

February 13, 2005

Perhaps you should check Kerry's voting record. It speaks for itself.

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Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control

-

Two things.

First:

>I use a Webster's. Perhaps you should check your dictionary.

I'm afraid you should follow your own advice. Here for your reading

comprehension pleasure is the definition of " socialist " from

Miriam-Webster's online dictionary.

>>Main Entry: so·cial·ist

>>Pronunciation: 'sO-sh( & -)list

>>Function: noun

>>1 : one who advocates or practices socialism

>>2 capitalized : a member of a party or political group advocating socialism

That's not especially useful by itself, so here's the Miriam-Webster

definition of socialism:

>>Main Entry: so·cial·ism

>>Pronunciation: 'sO-sh & - " li-z & m

>>Function: noun

>>1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective

>>or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production

>>and distribution of goods

>>2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private

>>property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of

>>production are owned and controlled by the state

>>3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism

>>and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay

>>according to work done

Kerry did not advocate collective or governmental ownership and

administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

Kerry did not advocate the abolition of private property.

Kerry is not secretly (or publicly) a communist who intends ultimately

to remake the country along communist lines.

>If you look up the definition of Fascist, you clearly would find that

> Bush is not a Fascist, unless you are adept at blinding yourself to

>the truth. Being the leader of a sovereign nation and making decisions

>based on that fact and in order to keep that nation sovereign and safe,

>does not by definition make one a Fascist...and neither does your or

>anyone else's opinion.

Oh well, what the heck. Here's your dictionary of choice's definition of

fascism:

>>Main Entry: fas·cism

>>Pronunciation: 'fa- " shi-z & m also 'fa- " si-

>>Function: noun

>>Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from

>>Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces

>>1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as

>>that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the

>>individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed

>>by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and

>>forcible suppression of opposition

>>2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or

>>dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J.

>>W. Aldridge>

It's arguable whether Bush exalts nation above the individual. He

definitely behaves dictatorially and forcibly suppresses his

opposition. And it's arguable whether his policies foster severe economic

and social regimentation -- certainly not even remotely to the degree that

late-stage fascist regimes do.

So I'd say that by your dictionary's definition Bush has certain fascist

tendencies, but it's much too early to call him a fascist proper. If he

contrives to stay in office past his second term, then yes, but otherwise no.

Second:

>http://www.auctionsniper.com/?how=shelleyslifeearthlink (DOT) net

I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to remove this advertisement from

your sig.

-

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February 13, 2005

>

> If you look up the definition of Fascist, you clearly would find that

> Bush is not a Fascist, unless you are adept at blinding yourself to the truth.

> Being the leader of a sovereign nation and making decisions based on that fact

> and in order to keep that nation sovereign and safe, does not by definition

make

> one a Fascist...and neither does your or anyone else's opinion.

Well, one definition of the word fascist is 'A reactionary or dictatorial

person.' I think then that it is certainly a matter of opinion whether Bush fits

this definition. I most certainly think that he does.

I might go further about Bush, and say, for instance that the man should

be executed as a war criminal. And I don't believe that his actions are meant to

keep the nation safe, and, in fact, has made it much more unsafe.

>

> However, if you look up the definition of a Socialist and check a certain

> person's voting record, you would clearly see that by definition, that certain

> person is a Socialist.

>

> 'nuff now?

This, is equally absurd. If you really feel that simple access to a dictionary

should convince anyone that Kerry is a socialist, then perhaps you might

invest in a new dictionary.

February 13, 2005

As I said, your opinion matters not. And, your further explanation is a really

good reason why I am most thankful it doesn't.

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Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control

>

> If you look up the definition of Fascist, you clearly would find that

> Bush is not a Fascist, unless you are adept at blinding yourself to the

truth.

> Being the leader of a sovereign nation and making decisions based on that

fact

> and in order to keep that nation sovereign and safe, does not by definition

make

> one a Fascist...and neither does your or anyone else's opinion.

Well, one definition of the word fascist is 'A reactionary or dictatorial

person.' I think then that it is certainly a matter of opinion whether Bush fits

this definition. I most certainly think that he does.

I might go further about Bush, and say, for instance that the man

should be executed as a war criminal. And I don't believe that his actions are

meant to keep the nation safe, and, in fact, has made it much more unsafe.

>

> However, if you look up the definition of a Socialist and check a certain

> person's voting record, you would clearly see that by definition, that

certain

> person is a Socialist.

>

> 'nuff now?

This, is equally absurd. If you really feel that simple access to a dictionary

should convince anyone that Kerry is a socialist, then perhaps you might

invest in a new dictionary.

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February 13, 2005

Can we stop this political speak now? I really just want to enjoy the group.

And the topic is so very far away from what is really important to the group. I

think it is, anyway.

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February 13, 2005

I wouldn't expect an extreme right wing ideologue to care about my opinions.

>

> As I said, your opinion matters not. And, your further explanation is a really

> good reason why I am most thankful it doesn't.

>

> ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

> ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

> ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:-

> 2005~*~Alive! Alive! Alive!

> -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*.

>

> Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control

>

> >

> > If you look up the definition of Fascist, you clearly would find that

> > Bush is not a Fascist, unless you are adept at blinding yourself to the

> truth.

> > Being the leader of a sovereign nation and making decisions based on that

> fact

> > and in order to keep that nation sovereign and safe, does not by

definition

> make

> > one a Fascist...and neither does your or anyone else's opinion.

>

> Well, one definition of the word fascist is 'A reactionary or dictatorial

> person.' I think then that it is certainly a matter of opinion whether Bush

fits

> this definition. I most certainly think that he does.

>

> I might go further about Bush, and say, for instance that the man

> should be executed as a war criminal. And I don't believe that his actions are

> meant to keep the nation safe, and, in fact, has made it much more unsafe.

>

> >

> > However, if you look up the definition of a Socialist and check a certain

> > person's voting record, you would clearly see that by definition, that

> certain

> > person is a Socialist.

> >

> > 'nuff now?

>

> This, is equally absurd. If you really feel that simple access to a

dictionary

> should convince anyone that Kerry is a socialist, then perhaps you might

> invest in a new dictionary.

>

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February 13, 2005

LOL! " oh, the dictionary proves that Bush isn't a fascist. And Kerry

is a socialist. Anyone can see that. Now, everyone please let me have the last

word and shut up "

>

> Can we stop this political speak now? I really just want to enjoy the group.

> And the topic is so very far away from what is really important to the group.

I

> think it is, anyway.

>

> ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

> ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

> ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:-

> 2005~*~Alive! Alive! Alive!

> -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*.

>

February 13, 2005

> Can we stop this political speak now? I really just want to enjoy the

> group. And the topic is so very far away from what is really

> important to the group. I think it is, anyway.

I think anyone and everyone on this list has the right not to engage in

political discussions. Just say no, or hit delete. This group thrives

on the occasional romping through the political woods, frolicking among

the boobs and butts, and tiptoeing through religious perspectives. It

kind of rounds out the talk of food and exercise. Think of it as our

dessert.

Deanna

February 13, 2005

I personally don't care what your opinion is...however, I didn't say you didn't

have a right to your opinion.

If you go back and read my e-mails, you will find that I said that opinions did

not matter in determining whether GW was a Fascist...or for that matter, if JK

is a Socialist.

And no, I didn't say that the dictionary says Kerry is a Socialist. I said

his voting record says he's a Socialist.

You really must read more carefully.

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Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control

>

> >

> > If you look up the definition of Fascist, you clearly would find that

> > Bush is not a Fascist, unless you are adept at blinding yourself to the

> truth.

> > Being the leader of a sovereign nation and making decisions based on

that

> fact

> > and in order to keep that nation sovereign and safe, does not by

definition

> make

> > one a Fascist...and neither does your or anyone else's opinion.

>

> Well, one definition of the word fascist is 'A reactionary or dictatorial

> person.' I think then that it is certainly a matter of opinion whether Bush

fits

> this definition. I most certainly think that he does.

>

> I might go further about Bush, and say, for instance that the man

> should be executed as a war criminal. And I don't believe that his actions

are

> meant to keep the nation safe, and, in fact, has made it much more unsafe.

>

> >

> > However, if you look up the definition of a Socialist and check a

certain

> > person's voting record, you would clearly see that by definition, that

> certain

> > person is a Socialist.

> >

> > 'nuff now?

>

> This, is equally absurd. If you really feel that simple access to a

dictionary

> should convince anyone that Kerry is a socialist, then perhaps you

might

> invest in a new dictionary.

>

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>

February 13, 2005

-

>Perhaps you should check Kerry's voting record. It speaks for itself.

Strangely enough, I did, back in the election season leading up to Debacle

'04. Kerry was a crummy candidate, and I reluctantly voted for him because

I could not in good conscience do anything to aid in the reelection of

Bush, but he's by no stretch of the imagination a socialist.

To reiterate, Kerry did not advocate collective or governmental

ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of

goods, and has not voted for anything of the kind.

Kerry did not advocate the abolition of private property and has never

voted for any such thing.

Kerry is not secretly (or publicly) a communist who intends ultimately

to remake the country along communist lines and has never voted for such

policies.

Now, if your argument is that Medicare and the like are socialist or

socialist-like programs, then we'd get into a separate debate, but since

Bush campaigned for and signed off on the prescription drug bill, you'd be

hard pressed to argue that Kerry is more socialist than Bush on this basis.

-

February 13, 2005

It's ok with me. I just don't want anyone to get offended.

I'm personally, always up for a little political romping. It's actually one of

my most favorite subjects...it and religion.

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Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control

> Can we stop this political speak now? I really just want to enjoy the

> group. And the topic is so very far away from what is really

> important to the group. I think it is, anyway.

I think anyone and everyone on this list has the right not to engage in

political discussions. Just say no, or hit delete. This group thrives

on the occasional romping through the political woods, frolicking among

the boobs and butts, and tiptoeing through religious perspectives. It

kind of rounds out the talk of food and exercise. Think of it as our

dessert.

Deanna

February 13, 2005

>> Perhaps you should check your dictionary.

Maybe you should check your reading comprehension? I didn't call Bush a

fascist, I said that using words such as " fascist " to describe leaders such

as Bush leaves us with no words for leaders such as Hitler and Mussolini. My

implication, which is, I think, quite clear, is that calling Kerry a

socialist, as you did, is JUST AS ABSURD and BANKRUPTS LANGUAGE JUST AS

MUCH, as calling Bush a fascist. Whether you agree with me on Kerry being a

socialist or not, it's perfectly clear from what I said that I do NOT think

Bush is a fascist.

I'm always happy to defend what I say and what I believe, but I really don't

much care for being called to task for things I neither said nor believe.

As to your believing Kerry is a socialist, that is only true in Bizarro

world, where words have totally different definitions than in the

reality-based community. Hate him, love him, think he'd be the savior of the

world or its doom, it's just plain silly to say he's a socialist. It's

certainly true, as said, that elements of socialism have been put

forward by both parties, including Kerry and Bush, but neither man is,

himself, a socialist, nor would any actual socialist care to claim either

one.

Christie

February 13, 2005

-

>Can we stop this political speak now? I really just want to enjoy the

>group. And the topic is so very far away from what is really important to

>the group. I think it is, anyway.

The original post was a joke. Most people responded to it as such. You

bear primary responsibility for diverting the discussion into a genuinely

political domain.

I don't especially like this detour, but as a strong believer in the

principle of free speech, I'm reluctant to squelch it. However, if you

don't want to wade through the thread and you'd rather focus exclusively on

nutritional and health matters on this list, you can create a filter in

your email client to automatically delete all NN messages with the

'POLITICS' tag in the subject header. That's why I instituted the tag. If

you don't know how to create such a filter but want to, please don't

hesitate to ask me for help offlist -- I'll be happy to walk you through

the process.

-

February 13, 2005

Obviously, your interpretation of his voting record and mine, differ. We can

agree to disagree.

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Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control

-

>Perhaps you should check Kerry's voting record. It speaks for itself.

Strangely enough, I did, back in the election season leading up to Debacle

'04. Kerry was a crummy candidate, and I reluctantly voted for him because

I could not in good conscience do anything to aid in the reelection of

Bush, but he's by no stretch of the imagination a socialist.

To reiterate, Kerry did not advocate collective or governmental

ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of

goods, and has not voted for anything of the kind.

Kerry did not advocate the abolition of private property and has never

voted for any such thing.

Kerry is not secretly (or publicly) a communist who intends ultimately

to remake the country along communist lines and has never voted for such

policies.

Now, if your argument is that Medicare and the like are socialist or

socialist-like programs, then we'd get into a separate debate, but since

Bush campaigned for and signed off on the prescription drug bill, you'd be

hard pressed to argue that Kerry is more socialist than Bush on this basis.

-

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February 13, 2005

I'm sorry, Christie. Perhaps you are right. I am uncertain as to my response

now and don't have time at this moment to check and see what my response was. I

did read yours thoroughly, I just need to see if I responded inappropriately.