Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 In a message dated 2/13/05 3:26:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, hl@... writes: > Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by > the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree > in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support > him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not > to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiently or otherwise he > fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is > unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone > else. > > Theodore Roosevelt ___ Go Theo, Go Theo... Chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 >but entirely another to start a new thread with an off-topic post consisting >of little more than a litany of insulting overgeneralizations wrapped in a >thin veneer of humor. Inasmuch as that message cracked up my ultra-conservative girlfriend, I think your humorless contingent is rather small, . - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 In a message dated 2/13/05 3:34:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, implode7@... writes: > Perhaps, rather than looking at it as socialism influencing people to adopt > these policies, you can look at them as policies that have been won (and are > now rapidly being lost) by the real struggles of people. Bush > acquiesces to some of this not because he is in any way influenced by > Socialism (the very idea is totally ludicrous) but because there is a status > quo now which he cannot simple dismantle on command. He is trying his best > though, just as I suspect that you would, your little signature quote about > compassion notwithstanding. _____ Yeah, I think that's true to a certain extent. I can't see inside Bush's brain, but it does seem probable that Bush supports the prescription drug plan and Head First as a calculated move to try to rid neoconservatism of its blunt, selfish edge. But also, I'd have to brush up on economic history a bit, but weren't many economic theories that have come to the fore in modern history such as Keynesianism born out of the struggle between capitalism and socialism and the perceived crisis of capitalism? I don't think that Bush is a closet socialist or anything ridiculous like that, but it's difficult to imagine that such an influential movement in the past didn't leave it's mark on modern politics. Had their never been a socialist movement, never been a socialist critique of capitalism on moral, ethical, and economic grounds, then there never would have been a real threat to capitalism, and an effort to save capitalism by synthesizing it with elements of the movements that posed the greatest threats to it. Chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 - Two things. First: >I use a Webster's. Perhaps you should check your dictionary. I'm afraid you should follow your own advice. Here for your reading comprehension pleasure is the definition of " socialist " from Miriam-Webster's online dictionary. >>Main Entry: so·cial·ist >>Pronunciation: 'sO-sh( & -)list >>Function: noun >>1 : one who advocates or practices socialism >>2 capitalized : a member of a party or political group advocating socialism That's not especially useful by itself, so here's the Miriam-Webster definition of socialism: >>Main Entry: so·cial·ism >>Pronunciation: 'sO-sh & - " li-z & m >>Function: noun >>1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective >>or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production >>and distribution of goods >>2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private >>property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of >>production are owned and controlled by the state >>3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism >>and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay >>according to work done Kerry did not advocate collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods. Kerry did not advocate the abolition of private property. Kerry is not secretly (or publicly) a communist who intends ultimately to remake the country along communist lines. >If you look up the definition of Fascist, you clearly would find that > Bush is not a Fascist, unless you are adept at blinding yourself to >the truth. Being the leader of a sovereign nation and making decisions >based on that fact and in order to keep that nation sovereign and safe, >does not by definition make one a Fascist...and neither does your or >anyone else's opinion. Oh well, what the heck. Here's your dictionary of choice's definition of fascism: >>Main Entry: fas·cism >>Pronunciation: 'fa- " shi-z & m also 'fa- " si- >>Function: noun >>Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from >>Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces >>1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as >>that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the >>individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed >>by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and >>forcible suppression of opposition >>2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or >>dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. >>W. Aldridge> It's arguable whether Bush exalts nation above the individual. He definitely behaves dictatorially and forcibly suppresses his opposition. And it's arguable whether his policies foster severe economic and social regimentation -- certainly not even remotely to the degree that late-stage fascist regimes do. So I'd say that by your dictionary's definition Bush has certain fascist tendencies, but it's much too early to call him a fascist proper. If he contrives to stay in office past his second term, then yes, but otherwise no. Second: >http://www.auctionsniper.com/?how=shelleyslifeearthlink (DOT) net I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to remove this advertisement from your sig. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 Perhaps you should check Kerry's voting record. It speaks for itself. ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- 2005~*~Alive! Alive! Alive! -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*. Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control - Two things. First: >I use a Webster's. Perhaps you should check your dictionary. I'm afraid you should follow your own advice. Here for your reading comprehension pleasure is the definition of " socialist " from Miriam-Webster's online dictionary. >>Main Entry: so·cial·ist >>Pronunciation: 'sO-sh( & -)list >>Function: noun >>1 : one who advocates or practices socialism >>2 capitalized : a member of a party or political group advocating socialism That's not especially useful by itself, so here's the Miriam-Webster definition of socialism: >>Main Entry: so·cial·ism >>Pronunciation: 'sO-sh & - " li-z & m >>Function: noun >>1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective >>or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production >>and distribution of goods >>2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private >>property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of >>production are owned and controlled by the state >>3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism >>and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay >>according to work done Kerry did not advocate collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods. Kerry did not advocate the abolition of private property. Kerry is not secretly (or publicly) a communist who intends ultimately to remake the country along communist lines. >If you look up the definition of Fascist, you clearly would find that > Bush is not a Fascist, unless you are adept at blinding yourself to >the truth. Being the leader of a sovereign nation and making decisions >based on that fact and in order to keep that nation sovereign and safe, >does not by definition make one a Fascist...and neither does your or >anyone else's opinion. Oh well, what the heck. Here's your dictionary of choice's definition of fascism: >>Main Entry: fas·cism >>Pronunciation: 'fa- " shi-z & m also 'fa- " si- >>Function: noun >>Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from >>Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces >>1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as >>that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the >>individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed >>by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and >>forcible suppression of opposition >>2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or >>dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. >>W. Aldridge> It's arguable whether Bush exalts nation above the individual. He definitely behaves dictatorially and forcibly suppresses his opposition. And it's arguable whether his policies foster severe economic and social regimentation -- certainly not even remotely to the degree that late-stage fascist regimes do. So I'd say that by your dictionary's definition Bush has certain fascist tendencies, but it's much too early to call him a fascist proper. If he contrives to stay in office past his second term, then yes, but otherwise no. Second: >http://www.auctionsniper.com/?how=shelleyslifeearthlink (DOT) net I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to remove this advertisement from your sig. - <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> <UL> <LI><B><A HREF= " / " >NATIVE NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message archive with Onibasu</LI> </UL></FONT> <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> Idol <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer Wanita Sears </FONT></PRE> </BODY> </HTML> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 > > If you look up the definition of Fascist, you clearly would find that > Bush is not a Fascist, unless you are adept at blinding yourself to the truth. > Being the leader of a sovereign nation and making decisions based on that fact > and in order to keep that nation sovereign and safe, does not by definition make > one a Fascist...and neither does your or anyone else's opinion. Well, one definition of the word fascist is 'A reactionary or dictatorial person.' I think then that it is certainly a matter of opinion whether Bush fits this definition. I most certainly think that he does. I might go further about Bush, and say, for instance that the man should be executed as a war criminal. And I don't believe that his actions are meant to keep the nation safe, and, in fact, has made it much more unsafe. > > However, if you look up the definition of a Socialist and check a certain > person's voting record, you would clearly see that by definition, that certain > person is a Socialist. > > 'nuff now? This, is equally absurd. If you really feel that simple access to a dictionary should convince anyone that Kerry is a socialist, then perhaps you might invest in a new dictionary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 As I said, your opinion matters not. And, your further explanation is a really good reason why I am most thankful it doesn't. ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- 2005~*~Alive! Alive! Alive! -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*. Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control > > If you look up the definition of Fascist, you clearly would find that > Bush is not a Fascist, unless you are adept at blinding yourself to the truth. > Being the leader of a sovereign nation and making decisions based on that fact > and in order to keep that nation sovereign and safe, does not by definition make > one a Fascist...and neither does your or anyone else's opinion. Well, one definition of the word fascist is 'A reactionary or dictatorial person.' I think then that it is certainly a matter of opinion whether Bush fits this definition. I most certainly think that he does. I might go further about Bush, and say, for instance that the man should be executed as a war criminal. And I don't believe that his actions are meant to keep the nation safe, and, in fact, has made it much more unsafe. > > However, if you look up the definition of a Socialist and check a certain > person's voting record, you would clearly see that by definition, that certain > person is a Socialist. > > 'nuff now? This, is equally absurd. If you really feel that simple access to a dictionary should convince anyone that Kerry is a socialist, then perhaps you might invest in a new dictionary. <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> <UL> <LI><B><A HREF= " / " >NATIVE NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message archive with Onibasu</LI> </UL></FONT> <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> Idol <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer Wanita Sears </FONT></PRE> </BODY> </HTML> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 Can we stop this political speak now? I really just want to enjoy the group. And the topic is so very far away from what is really important to the group. I think it is, anyway. ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- 2005~*~Alive! Alive! Alive! -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 I wouldn't expect an extreme right wing ideologue to care about my opinions. > > > As I said, your opinion matters not. And, your further explanation is a really > good reason why I am most thankful it doesn't. > > ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- > ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) > ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- > 2005~*~Alive! Alive! Alive! > -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*. > > > > > > Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control > > > > > > > If you look up the definition of Fascist, you clearly would find that > > Bush is not a Fascist, unless you are adept at blinding yourself to the > truth. > > Being the leader of a sovereign nation and making decisions based on that > fact > > and in order to keep that nation sovereign and safe, does not by definition > make > > one a Fascist...and neither does your or anyone else's opinion. > > Well, one definition of the word fascist is 'A reactionary or dictatorial > person.' I think then that it is certainly a matter of opinion whether Bush fits > this definition. I most certainly think that he does. > > I might go further about Bush, and say, for instance that the man > should be executed as a war criminal. And I don't believe that his actions are > meant to keep the nation safe, and, in fact, has made it much more unsafe. > > > > > > However, if you look up the definition of a Socialist and check a certain > > person's voting record, you would clearly see that by definition, that > certain > > person is a Socialist. > > > > 'nuff now? > > This, is equally absurd. If you really feel that simple access to a dictionary > should convince anyone that Kerry is a socialist, then perhaps you might > invest in a new dictionary. > > > > > > > <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " > " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT > FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> > <UL> > <LI><B><A > HREF= " / " >NATIVE > NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> > <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message > archive with Onibasu</LI> > </UL></FONT> > <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A > HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> > Idol > <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer > Wanita Sears > </FONT></PRE> > </BODY> > </HTML> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 LOL! " oh, the dictionary proves that Bush isn't a fascist. And Kerry is a socialist. Anyone can see that. Now, everyone please let me have the last word and shut up " > > > Can we stop this political speak now? I really just want to enjoy the group. > And the topic is so very far away from what is really important to the group. I > think it is, anyway. > > ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- > ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) > ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- > 2005~*~Alive! Alive! Alive! > -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 > Can we stop this political speak now? I really just want to enjoy the > group. And the topic is so very far away from what is really > important to the group. I think it is, anyway. I think anyone and everyone on this list has the right not to engage in political discussions. Just say no, or hit delete. This group thrives on the occasional romping through the political woods, frolicking among the boobs and butts, and tiptoeing through religious perspectives. It kind of rounds out the talk of food and exercise. Think of it as our dessert. Deanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 I personally don't care what your opinion is...however, I didn't say you didn't have a right to your opinion. If you go back and read my e-mails, you will find that I said that opinions did not matter in determining whether GW was a Fascist...or for that matter, if JK is a Socialist. And no, I didn't say that the dictionary says Kerry is a Socialist. I said his voting record says he's a Socialist. You really must read more carefully. ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- 2005~*~Alive! Alive! Alive! -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*. Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control > > > > > > > If you look up the definition of Fascist, you clearly would find that > > Bush is not a Fascist, unless you are adept at blinding yourself to the > truth. > > Being the leader of a sovereign nation and making decisions based on that > fact > > and in order to keep that nation sovereign and safe, does not by definition > make > > one a Fascist...and neither does your or anyone else's opinion. > > Well, one definition of the word fascist is 'A reactionary or dictatorial > person.' I think then that it is certainly a matter of opinion whether Bush fits > this definition. I most certainly think that he does. > > I might go further about Bush, and say, for instance that the man > should be executed as a war criminal. And I don't believe that his actions are > meant to keep the nation safe, and, in fact, has made it much more unsafe. > > > > > > However, if you look up the definition of a Socialist and check a certain > > person's voting record, you would clearly see that by definition, that > certain > > person is a Socialist. > > > > 'nuff now? > > This, is equally absurd. If you really feel that simple access to a dictionary > should convince anyone that Kerry is a socialist, then perhaps you might > invest in a new dictionary. > > > > > > > <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " > " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT > FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> > <UL> > <LI><B><A > HREF= " / " >NATIVE > NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> > <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message > archive with Onibasu</LI> > </UL></FONT> > <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A > HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> > Idol > <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer > Wanita Sears > </FONT></PRE> > </BODY> > </HTML> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 - >Perhaps you should check Kerry's voting record. It speaks for itself. Strangely enough, I did, back in the election season leading up to Debacle '04. Kerry was a crummy candidate, and I reluctantly voted for him because I could not in good conscience do anything to aid in the reelection of Bush, but he's by no stretch of the imagination a socialist. To reiterate, Kerry did not advocate collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and has not voted for anything of the kind. Kerry did not advocate the abolition of private property and has never voted for any such thing. Kerry is not secretly (or publicly) a communist who intends ultimately to remake the country along communist lines and has never voted for such policies. Now, if your argument is that Medicare and the like are socialist or socialist-like programs, then we'd get into a separate debate, but since Bush campaigned for and signed off on the prescription drug bill, you'd be hard pressed to argue that Kerry is more socialist than Bush on this basis. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 It's ok with me. I just don't want anyone to get offended. I'm personally, always up for a little political romping. It's actually one of my most favorite subjects...it and religion. ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- 2005~*~Alive! Alive! Alive! -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*. Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control > Can we stop this political speak now? I really just want to enjoy the > group. And the topic is so very far away from what is really > important to the group. I think it is, anyway. I think anyone and everyone on this list has the right not to engage in political discussions. Just say no, or hit delete. This group thrives on the occasional romping through the political woods, frolicking among the boobs and butts, and tiptoeing through religious perspectives. It kind of rounds out the talk of food and exercise. Think of it as our dessert. Deanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 >> Perhaps you should check your dictionary. Maybe you should check your reading comprehension? I didn't call Bush a fascist, I said that using words such as " fascist " to describe leaders such as Bush leaves us with no words for leaders such as Hitler and Mussolini. My implication, which is, I think, quite clear, is that calling Kerry a socialist, as you did, is JUST AS ABSURD and BANKRUPTS LANGUAGE JUST AS MUCH, as calling Bush a fascist. Whether you agree with me on Kerry being a socialist or not, it's perfectly clear from what I said that I do NOT think Bush is a fascist. I'm always happy to defend what I say and what I believe, but I really don't much care for being called to task for things I neither said nor believe. As to your believing Kerry is a socialist, that is only true in Bizarro world, where words have totally different definitions than in the reality-based community. Hate him, love him, think he'd be the savior of the world or its doom, it's just plain silly to say he's a socialist. It's certainly true, as said, that elements of socialism have been put forward by both parties, including Kerry and Bush, but neither man is, himself, a socialist, nor would any actual socialist care to claim either one. Christie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 - >Can we stop this political speak now? I really just want to enjoy the >group. And the topic is so very far away from what is really important to >the group. I think it is, anyway. The original post was a joke. Most people responded to it as such. You bear primary responsibility for diverting the discussion into a genuinely political domain. I don't especially like this detour, but as a strong believer in the principle of free speech, I'm reluctant to squelch it. However, if you don't want to wade through the thread and you'd rather focus exclusively on nutritional and health matters on this list, you can create a filter in your email client to automatically delete all NN messages with the 'POLITICS' tag in the subject header. That's why I instituted the tag. If you don't know how to create such a filter but want to, please don't hesitate to ask me for help offlist -- I'll be happy to walk you through the process. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 Obviously, your interpretation of his voting record and mine, differ. We can agree to disagree. ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- 2005~*~Alive! Alive! Alive! -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*. Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control - >Perhaps you should check Kerry's voting record. It speaks for itself. Strangely enough, I did, back in the election season leading up to Debacle '04. Kerry was a crummy candidate, and I reluctantly voted for him because I could not in good conscience do anything to aid in the reelection of Bush, but he's by no stretch of the imagination a socialist. To reiterate, Kerry did not advocate collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and has not voted for anything of the kind. Kerry did not advocate the abolition of private property and has never voted for any such thing. Kerry is not secretly (or publicly) a communist who intends ultimately to remake the country along communist lines and has never voted for such policies. Now, if your argument is that Medicare and the like are socialist or socialist-like programs, then we'd get into a separate debate, but since Bush campaigned for and signed off on the prescription drug bill, you'd be hard pressed to argue that Kerry is more socialist than Bush on this basis. - <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> <UL> <LI><B><A HREF= " / " >NATIVE NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message archive with Onibasu</LI> </UL></FONT> <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> Idol <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer Wanita Sears </FONT></PRE> </BODY> </HTML> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 I'm sorry, Christie. Perhaps you are right. I am uncertain as to my response now and don't have time at this moment to check and see what my response was. I did read yours thoroughly, I just need to see if I responded inappropriately. ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- 2005~*~Alive! Alive! Alive! -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*. Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control >> Perhaps you should check your dictionary. Maybe you should check your reading comprehension? I didn't call Bush a fascist, I said that using words such as " fascist " to describe leaders such as Bush leaves us with no words for leaders such as Hitler and Mussolini. My implication, which is, I think, quite clear, is that calling Kerry a socialist, as you did, is JUST AS ABSURD and BANKRUPTS LANGUAGE JUST AS MUCH, as calling Bush a fascist. Whether you agree with me on Kerry being a socialist or not, it's perfectly clear from what I said that I do NOT think Bush is a fascist. I'm always happy to defend what I say and what I believe, but I really don't much care for being called to task for things I neither said nor believe. As to your believing Kerry is a socialist, that is only true in Bizarro world, where words have totally different definitions than in the reality-based community. Hate him, love him, think he'd be the savior of the world or its doom, it's just plain silly to say he's a socialist. It's certainly true, as said, that elements of socialism have been put forward by both parties, including Kerry and Bush, but neither man is, himself, a socialist, nor would any actual socialist care to claim either one. Christie <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> <UL> <LI><B><A HREF= " / " >NATIVE NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message archive with Onibasu</LI> </UL></FONT> <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> Idol <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer Wanita Sears </FONT></PRE> </BODY> </HTML> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 I took it as a joke as well. A very bad one and one that intended to belittle the President of the United States of America. Thus, my response. As I've already said, politics is one of my favorite subjects so I'm in this conversation for the long haul. It was the emotional outburst of someone that was resorting to an attempt at name calling that caused me to second guess the productiveness of it. I respond to that attempt in this way...If right wing means that I believe in America, the Constitution and Liberty in the way Washington and many founders of this great nation, then that is a correct description of moi. Ideologue (I had to look that up) is not a correct description, however. I really must run. I need to till the garden and move my compost pile. I have 4 beautiful Papaya trees growing out of my present one and do not want to disturb them. ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- 2005~*~Alive! Alive! Alive! -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*. Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control - >Can we stop this political speak now? I really just want to enjoy the >group. And the topic is so very far away from what is really important to >the group. I think it is, anyway. The original post was a joke. Most people responded to it as such. You bear primary responsibility for diverting the discussion into a genuinely political domain. I don't especially like this detour, but as a strong believer in the principle of free speech, I'm reluctant to squelch it. However, if you don't want to wade through the thread and you'd rather focus exclusively on nutritional and health matters on this list, you can create a filter in your email client to automatically delete all NN messages with the 'POLITICS' tag in the subject header. That's why I instituted the tag. If you don't know how to create such a filter but want to, please don't hesitate to ask me for help offlist -- I'll be happy to walk you through the process. - <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> <UL> <LI><B><A HREF= " / " >NATIVE NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message archive with Onibasu</LI> </UL></FONT> <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> Idol <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer Wanita Sears </FONT></PRE> </BODY> </HTML> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 In a message dated 2/13/05 4:47:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, tharbold@... writes: > Lettuce rather reach peas with this issue, endive into something more > uplifting. ___ Are you trying to say this conversation doesn't turn you on? Chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 Our president should be belittled. He should also be taken seriously, as he is responsible for the slaughter of many thousands of innocent people, and of a serious attempt to erode civil liberties, and social institutions that serve to help people who are not financially elite like himself. I hereby belittle Bush in the most offensive possible manner. > > > I took it as a joke as well. A very bad one and one that intended to belittle > the President of the United States of America. > > Thus, my response. As I've already said, politics is one of my favorite > subjects so I'm in this conversation for the long haul. It was the emotional > outburst of someone that was resorting to an attempt at name calling that caused > me to second guess the productiveness of it. > > I respond to that attempt in this way...If right wing means that I believe in > America, the Constitution and Liberty in the way Washington and many > founders of this great nation, then that is a correct description of moi. > Ideologue (I had to look that up) is not a correct description, however. > > I really must run. I need to till the garden and move my compost pile. I have > 4 beautiful Papaya trees growing out of my present one and do not want to > disturb them. > > > ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- > ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) > ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- > 2005~*~Alive! Alive! Alive! > -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*. > > > > Re: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control > > > > - > > >Can we stop this political speak now? I really just want to enjoy the > >group. And the topic is so very far away from what is really important to > >the group. I think it is, anyway. > > The original post was a joke. Most people responded to it as such. You > bear primary responsibility for diverting the discussion into a genuinely > political domain. > > I don't especially like this detour, but as a strong believer in the > principle of free speech, I'm reluctant to squelch it. However, if you > don't want to wade through the thread and you'd rather focus exclusively on > nutritional and health matters on this list, you can create a filter in > your email client to automatically delete all NN messages with the > 'POLITICS' tag in the subject header. That's why I instituted the tag. If > you don't know how to create such a filter but want to, please don't > hesitate to ask me for help offlist -- I'll be happy to walk you through > the process. > > > > - > > > > > <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " > " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT > FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> > <UL> > <LI><B><A > HREF= " / " >NATIVE > NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> > <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message > archive with Onibasu</LI> > </UL></FONT> > <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A > HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> > Idol > <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer > Wanita Sears > </FONT></PRE> > </BODY> > </HTML> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 >> You might want to peel it first but just washing it off will retain more nutrients. Remember to return it. << OK, now you're just trying to scare me. Christie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 In a message dated 2/13/05 7:12:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, jaq@... writes: > Did either Bush or Kerry defend your right to drink raw milk? > > Did either defend your right to manage pain with cannabis? > > Has either offered to clean out/eliminate the USDA, FDA, etc.? ____ No but they both defended my right to consume statins ad libitum (naseum?) in my old age for free and your right to pay for them whether you want to or not. Chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 > While it is quite obvious, to anyone who actually takes the terms seriously > and uses them as they are meant instead of as a means of disparagement through > exaggeration, that Kerry and W. Bush are not socialists or > Socialists, it's also true that *both* of them support *some* state ownership of > production and distribution. For example, both of them support state-ownership > of > the military. Both of them support taxation and various forms of > redistribution. > > So, either we use the definition of socialism in an absolute sense and admit > for seriousness's sake that neither of them are socialists, or we use the term > to address a partial influence in their polices that can be quantified as to > its magnitude. So, then, you seem to be stating that to some degree, both Bush and Kerry, because of the fact that they acquiesce to " state ownership of the military " and " taxation and various forms of redistribution " have been influenced by Socialism? Surely you don't mean that. Was there no Taxation before socialism existed? Were armies privately owned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 > I took it as a joke as well. A very bad one and one that intended to > belittle the President of the United States of America. > > Thus, my response. As I've already said, politics is one of my > favorite subjects so I'm in this conversation for the long haul. It > was the emotional outburst of someone that was resorting to an attempt > at name calling that caused me to second guess the productiveness of it. > > I respond to that attempt in this way...If right wing means that I > believe in America, the Constitution and Liberty in the way > Washington and many founders of this great nation, then that is a > correct description of moi. Ideologue (I had to look that up) is not > a correct description, however. Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiently or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else. Theodore Roosevelt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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