Re: Finally ... A Reason To Play Video Games ... LOL

[Guest guest]

Manners always comes first, so I apologize in advance if my approach was a bit too harsh in sound. I just tend to get sarcastical when people, mostly not knowing (what is the common) addresses a game or something I consider I know in a level a bit more deep than other things in a way it doesn't belongs. So, putted that clear, and that there wasn't any personal feeling in between, we can head for other details. Fast paced action games are not violent per se, but, like in the case of your child, they might trigger certain problems due some reactions to the quick pacing of images. Is the same that happened when the 3D chapter of Pokémon was aired in Japan, causing a lot of epilepsy cases around. Of course, the anime and the chaper per se weren't harmfull at all (just fancy in effects). The problem was that the brightfull signals used on the animation sprang out the latent epilepsy on many watchers.

All the rest of the persons who saw it were completely unharmed at all. What I would like to state in this case is that acclarations are never of surplus, because is the lack of them what leads to missunderstandings and general bannings, when the events relate to specific cases. Now, I am not a fan of censorship at all, for I was raised in a very free minded home, and I have grown to try to teach people to think by themselves thanks to that and not to live in a TeleTubby world made out of "cultural" programs that portray a very different world from what we have as reality... BUT, the case of your child is special, and THUS I never mentioned I had any kind of objection regarding your censorship criteria due that special condition. You will notice that my critic is regard classifying Sonic as violent, not about any other thing. It can be action, and fast paced, but if Sonic is violent, then the Care Bears are

the bloodiest assasins ever. (And for others that read this, I said SONIC, not Shadow The Hedgehog, that's a different story.). So, points cleared, nobody harmed, let's go back to the playground like good kids. PD: My mother used to play DOOM I & II when she wanted a break from her research job every day. She died at 45 years old beating the PAR of the levels and achieving 100% in each level in each category. She never killed a single animal except insects in her entire life, and I, who have been around things as violent as Resident Evil or Doom itself... would preffer withstanding several amounts of suffering before hurting anybody. miminm <mnmimi@...> escribió: Jano Lora by the way my son is 6 so I think I should be allowed to be the boss a little longerJano C. Lora PazIPRI Leading Teacher

LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.http://es.voice.

[Guest guest]

>

BUT, the case of your child is special, and THUS I never mentioned I

had any kind of objection regarding your censorship criteria due that

special condition. You will notice that my critic is regard classifying

Sonic as violent, not about any other thing. It can be action, and fast

paced, but if Sonic is violent, then the Care Bears are the bloodiest

assasins ever. (And for others that read this, I said SONIC, not Shadow

The Hedgehog, that's a different story.). So, points cleared, nobody

harmed, let's go back to the playground like good kids.

>

I very much want to play like good kids, and no sonic is cute but the

way my son reacts to the visual stimulation isn't. It certainly isn't

the character that is violent but the effect. He also doesn't like to

be seperated from the games and this also has a withdrawl effect that

can become agressive. Toward me the person asking him to stop game

play for the day. Conversly he has " played " halo in a very non violent

way by not shotting anything and just exploring the virtual landscape.

I should have stated what the trouble was in the begining.

I am guilty of not clarifying

[Guest guest]

>

BUT, the case of your child is special, and THUS I never mentioned I

had any kind of objection regarding your censorship criteria due that

special condition. You will notice that my critic is regard classifying

Sonic as violent, not about any other thing. It can be action, and fast

paced, but if Sonic is violent, then the Care Bears are the bloodiest

assasins ever. (And for others that read this, I said SONIC, not Shadow

The Hedgehog, that's a different story.). So, points cleared, nobody

harmed, let's go back to the playground like good kids.

>

I very much want to play like good kids, and no sonic is cute but the

way my son reacts to the visual stimulation isn't. It certainly isn't

the character that is violent but the effect. He also doesn't like to

be seperated from the games and this also has a withdrawl effect that

can become agressive. Toward me the person asking him to stop game

play for the day. Conversly he has " played " halo in a very non violent

way by not shotting anything and just exploring the virtual landscape.

I should have stated what the trouble was in the begining.

I am guilty of not clarifying

[Guest guest]

What a can of worms I opened when I posted this news article.

Sheesh!

Just for the record, Jano, the word " violent " has more than one

meaning. From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Main Entry: vi·o·lent

Pronunciation: -l & nt

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin violentus;

akin to Latin vis strength -- more at VIM

1 : marked by extreme force or sudden intense activity <a violent

attack>

2 a : notably furious or vehement <a violent denunciation> b :

EXTREME, INTENSE <violent pain> <violent colors>

3 : caused by force : not natural <a violent death>

4 a : emotionally agitated to the point of loss of self-control

<became violent after an insult> b : prone to commit acts of

violence <violent prison inmates>

So you can see that a game such as the one you mentioned -- Sonic

the Hedgehog -- could be seen as violent for children for whom it

creates a marked intense reaction or who become emotionally agitated

to the point of loss of self-control.

Had I known that posting the story would elicit such a violent

reaction from so many members, I never would have posted it in the

first place. Mea culpa.

Raven

Co-Administrator

>

> Oh yeah, a blue hedgehog that looks more or less like Mickey Mouse

and runs everywhere trying to free his reality from a despotic crazy

inventor that seems like taken out from the mind of Popeye's creator

is really a promotor of violence... Damn, how couldn't I see it?

Even if there isn't a single drop of blood in that game, how could I

not see all the violence embed on it? *Geez* People nowadays should

make much less violent games like games based on WB cartoons where a

rabbit constantly behaves like a gay kissing every man he meets or a

coyote suffering all the possible accidents a living being can

experiment... of course, that's not violent... or like that mouse

and a cat that chase all day splitting their limbs or inflicting

similar tortures and traps constantly... quiet educative and

completely unviolent... Or, AH! I know... Why don't we start sending

letters for video game makers to start making games about all the

things that happen between the politics? That would

> be AWESOME, isn't it? So educative and so full of morality and a

lot of non-aggresive behavior... It would be just great... Oh, if

the world just realized how terribly aggresive is Sonic The

Hedgehog... *sigh*

>

> miminm <mnmimi@...> escribió: I would like to say this

about that.

> Ravi had a multideciplanary study which stated that although he

was 5

> at the time his puzzle solving abilities were at an 8 yr old's

level.

> The Psy heading the study stated in his report that this was

common

> among children that played video games. that being said NOT EVERY

GAME

> is a game that contributes to puzzle solving. So I hand pick goal

> oriented games. Rayman for instance. Puzzle games NOT FIRST PERSON

> SHOOTERS. Some of the maps that people create may do this.

Spongebob

> and other games like Sonic antually seem to promote agressive

> behavior. So everybody get a grain of salt.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Jano C. Lora Paz

> IPRI Leading Teacher

>

> ---------------------------------

>

> LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.

> Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.

> http://es.voice.

>

[Guest guest]

What a can of worms I opened when I posted this news article.

Sheesh!

Just for the record, Jano, the word " violent " has more than one

meaning. From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Main Entry: vi·o·lent

Pronunciation: -l & nt

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin violentus;

akin to Latin vis strength -- more at VIM

1 : marked by extreme force or sudden intense activity <a violent

attack>

2 a : notably furious or vehement <a violent denunciation> b :

EXTREME, INTENSE <violent pain> <violent colors>

3 : caused by force : not natural <a violent death>

4 a : emotionally agitated to the point of loss of self-control

<became violent after an insult> b : prone to commit acts of

violence <violent prison inmates>

So you can see that a game such as the one you mentioned -- Sonic

the Hedgehog -- could be seen as violent for children for whom it

creates a marked intense reaction or who become emotionally agitated

to the point of loss of self-control.

Had I known that posting the story would elicit such a violent

reaction from so many members, I never would have posted it in the

first place. Mea culpa.

Raven

Co-Administrator

>

> Oh yeah, a blue hedgehog that looks more or less like Mickey Mouse

and runs everywhere trying to free his reality from a despotic crazy

inventor that seems like taken out from the mind of Popeye's creator

is really a promotor of violence... Damn, how couldn't I see it?

Even if there isn't a single drop of blood in that game, how could I

not see all the violence embed on it? *Geez* People nowadays should

make much less violent games like games based on WB cartoons where a

rabbit constantly behaves like a gay kissing every man he meets or a

coyote suffering all the possible accidents a living being can

experiment... of course, that's not violent... or like that mouse

and a cat that chase all day splitting their limbs or inflicting

similar tortures and traps constantly... quiet educative and

completely unviolent... Or, AH! I know... Why don't we start sending

letters for video game makers to start making games about all the

things that happen between the politics? That would

> be AWESOME, isn't it? So educative and so full of morality and a

lot of non-aggresive behavior... It would be just great... Oh, if

the world just realized how terribly aggresive is Sonic The

Hedgehog... *sigh*

>

> miminm <mnmimi@...> escribió: I would like to say this

about that.

> Ravi had a multideciplanary study which stated that although he

was 5

> at the time his puzzle solving abilities were at an 8 yr old's

level.

> The Psy heading the study stated in his report that this was

common

> among children that played video games. that being said NOT EVERY

GAME

> is a game that contributes to puzzle solving. So I hand pick goal

> oriented games. Rayman for instance. Puzzle games NOT FIRST PERSON

> SHOOTERS. Some of the maps that people create may do this.

Spongebob

> and other games like Sonic antually seem to promote agressive

> behavior. So everybody get a grain of salt.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Jano C. Lora Paz

> IPRI Leading Teacher

>

> ---------------------------------

>

> LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.

> Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.

> http://es.voice.

>

[Guest guest]

That's the reason why I love this group: you can (95% of the times) reason with PEOPLE, an specie that is growing scarce among humanity. ^-~miminm <mnmimi@...> escribió: >BUT, the case of your child is special, and THUS I never mentioned I had any kind of objection regarding your censorship criteria due that special condition. You will notice

that my critic is regard classifying Sonic as violent, not about any other thing. It can be action, and fast paced, but if Sonic is violent, then the Care Bears are the bloodiest assasins ever. (And for others that read this, I said SONIC, not Shadow The Hedgehog, that's a different story.). So, points cleared, nobody harmed, let's go back to the playground like good kids.> I very much want to play like good kids, and no sonic is cute but the way my son reacts to the visual stimulation isn't. It certainly isn't the character that is violent but the effect. He also doesn't like to be seperated from the games and this also has a withdrawl effect that can become agressive. Toward me the person asking him to stop game play for the day. Conversly he has "played" halo in a very non violent way by not shotting anything and just exploring the virtual landscape. I should have stated what the trouble was in the

begining.I am guilty of not clarifyingJano C. Lora PazIPRI Leading Teacher

LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.http://es.voice.

[Guest guest]

That's the reason why I love this group: you can (95% of the times) reason with PEOPLE, an specie that is growing scarce among humanity. ^-~miminm <mnmimi@...> escribió: >BUT, the case of your child is special, and THUS I never mentioned I had any kind of objection regarding your censorship criteria due that special condition. You will notice

that my critic is regard classifying Sonic as violent, not about any other thing. It can be action, and fast paced, but if Sonic is violent, then the Care Bears are the bloodiest assasins ever. (And for others that read this, I said SONIC, not Shadow The Hedgehog, that's a different story.). So, points cleared, nobody harmed, let's go back to the playground like good kids.> I very much want to play like good kids, and no sonic is cute but the way my son reacts to the visual stimulation isn't. It certainly isn't the character that is violent but the effect. He also doesn't like to be seperated from the games and this also has a withdrawl effect that can become agressive. Toward me the person asking him to stop game play for the day. Conversly he has "played" halo in a very non violent way by not shotting anything and just exploring the virtual landscape. I should have stated what the trouble was in the

begining.I am guilty of not clarifyingJano C. Lora PazIPRI Leading Teacher

LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.http://es.voice.

[Guest guest]

" That's the reason why I love this group: you can (95% of the times)

reason with PEOPLE, an specie that is growing scarce among humanity. "

Yes, well, it didn't always used to be that way here.

I had to make a decision a while back.

At first I wanted an active board with lots of members and posts.

It would go way up on the group list because the more members

you have, the higher up you go.

But then we had arguing left and right.

So I decided that a nice peaceful place where people could get along

was better.

I had to throw out all the trolls and " bouncing " /inactive members and

moderate the rest of the folks who had periodic trollish lapses.

You ought to see the stuff that I don't allow to post so that we can

all have peace of mind.

Anyway, what we have here is a nice bunch of people who seem to get

along with one another.

Sometimes we can get snippy, but for the most part we are okay.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

" That's the reason why I love this group: you can (95% of the times)

reason with PEOPLE, an specie that is growing scarce among humanity. "

Yes, well, it didn't always used to be that way here.

I had to make a decision a while back.

At first I wanted an active board with lots of members and posts.

It would go way up on the group list because the more members

you have, the higher up you go.

But then we had arguing left and right.

So I decided that a nice peaceful place where people could get along

was better.

I had to throw out all the trolls and " bouncing " /inactive members and

moderate the rest of the folks who had periodic trollish lapses.

You ought to see the stuff that I don't allow to post so that we can

all have peace of mind.

Anyway, what we have here is a nice bunch of people who seem to get

along with one another.

Sometimes we can get snippy, but for the most part we are okay.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I was wondering why the group was so silent during a certain time. I imagined something similar.environmental1st2003 <no_reply > escribió: "That's the reason why I love this group: you can (95% of the times) reason with PEOPLE, an specie that is growing scarce among humanity."Yes, well, it didn't always used to be that

way here. I had to make a decision a while back. At first I wanted an active board with lots of members and posts. It would go way up on the group list because the more members you have, the higher up you go. But then we had arguing left and right. So I decided that a nice peaceful place where people could get along was better. I had to throw out all the trolls and "bouncing"/inactive members and moderate the rest of the folks who had periodic trollish lapses.You ought to see the stuff that I don't allow to post so that we can all have peace of mind.Anyway, what we have here is a nice bunch of people who seem to get along with one another. Sometimes we can get snippy, but for the most part we are okay.TomAdministratorJano C. Lora PazIPRI Leading Teacher

LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.http://es.voice.

[Guest guest]

I have to confess I actually like sonic :-) and I do have an old sega

console - haven't played it in ages though. I liked sonic 1 and 2 as

the game seemed fairly consistent and in some respects repetitive and

very playable :-)

I don't know much about this 'shadow' sonic, what is 'shadow' sonic

all about?

As for voilent games - I think 'snap' with cards can get really out

of hand - I played 'snap' with a friend once and after her very

violent reaction to the game refused to ever play snap with her

again :-)

>

> Of course, if we take the meaning right to the book, and we decided

to bann everything that is violent according all the asceptions of

this word on the dictionary, we would end in stasis cells like in

Matrix, with machines inducting us " Happy Dreams " . But, even if they

did that, if they were too happy, they would also become violent,

because we may loose our " self-control " under too instense happyness

emotions. BUT... Actually, we weren't disscussing here the definition

of " Violence " completely. We actually were talking about what parents

normally address as " violence " on games. When they mean this, they

use to reffer to the blood, gore, guts, hadokens and choryuukens

being unleashed here and there for free. Putting the poor running

Sonic into the same group is, in my humble opinion, is a lack of

culture. Not because Sonic The Hedgehog is such a pillar of culture

and everybody should now every detail about it (actually, Sonic is

kind of the most famous/overlooked games

> because thought it has a lot of fans, it has never been able to

compete against titans like Bross series, the series in general

have been dark to the knowledge of anybody outside the SEGA consoles,

which weren't that much popular either), but because I consider that

if you are going to talk bad about something in specific, at least

one need to do some research on the subject.

>

> PD1: playing games like Doom, Halo, Resident Evil and the like

has saved my life several times. In countries like mine, you survive

or you die. There is no time for expensive paramilitar trainings...

but that's a completely different story more related to the

difference of being trained to think quickly when you have to hide

behind a wall to avoid being packed with iron and being trained into

playing zudoku, which I doubt will make much of a difference in a

moment like that... but, is for like other kind of conversation...

>

> PD2: ... Can zudoku be called violent? I have seen people going

nuts with it... *hahaha*

>

>

[Guest guest]

> As for voilent games - I think 'snap' with cards can get really out

> of hand - I played 'snap' with a friend once and after her very

> violent reaction to the game refused to ever play snap with her

> again :-)

>

>

>

That is really my contention with games in general. Loud fast pased

musiic and wording that creates urgency. Some " cutsie " kiddy games

have made him cry and have a meltdown. Like your snap reference. I

would like a group of games to be more about fun, not so much

pressure and benefitial visual stimulation. I had wanted to create a

low tech device of sorts that would be instructional. I have brought

it up to various researchers only to have them say " that sounds

great: do you have a prototype? " UMMMM

I am a mom on a limited budget, that is why I am telling it to MIT!

AGR

anyway; Teletubbies are the root of all evil! they reinforce baby

talk and make the world seem foolish, Care Bears are insipid as

well. Rayman in my opinion requirs a degree of problem solving that

isn't too cutsie. It makes the player want to reach the goals (there

is violence in it) shooting etc,..

What I really want from a game (for my purposes) Is something that

will motivate. If halo can save a life in a real world application

then it is educational! I think games should be applicable (not that

I want my son to employ wartime stratigies in everyday life) but If

his life depended on it then I would want him to hAVe that.

[Guest guest]

> As for voilent games - I think 'snap' with cards can get really out

> of hand - I played 'snap' with a friend once and after her very

> violent reaction to the game refused to ever play snap with her

> again :-)

>

>

>

That is really my contention with games in general. Loud fast pased

musiic and wording that creates urgency. Some " cutsie " kiddy games

have made him cry and have a meltdown. Like your snap reference. I

would like a group of games to be more about fun, not so much

pressure and benefitial visual stimulation. I had wanted to create a

low tech device of sorts that would be instructional. I have brought

it up to various researchers only to have them say " that sounds

great: do you have a prototype? " UMMMM

I am a mom on a limited budget, that is why I am telling it to MIT!

AGR

anyway; Teletubbies are the root of all evil! they reinforce baby

talk and make the world seem foolish, Care Bears are insipid as

well. Rayman in my opinion requirs a degree of problem solving that

isn't too cutsie. It makes the player want to reach the goals (there

is violence in it) shooting etc,..

What I really want from a game (for my purposes) Is something that

will motivate. If halo can save a life in a real world application

then it is educational! I think games should be applicable (not that

I want my son to employ wartime stratigies in everyday life) but If

his life depended on it then I would want him to hAVe that.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/8/2007 1:13:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dksunglsses@... writes:

I'd like to throw my two cents in here, I personally have goten violent after playing sonic on sega, it gets very frustrating to get to a certain level and play it and play it and not get past it. I have thrown controlers across the room or wanted to toss the TV out the window. So I can understand even the simplest childs game being considered violent.

That's called frustration. I've been there myself many times. That's why I rarely played Sonic by myself. There were some parts I just could not get past for anything. However, I had a friend who had no trouble with those places at all, but couldn't get past places I had no trouble with. So, we would hand the controller back and forth and whoever got passed the hard part kept it until they hit the part they couldn't get past.

Still, games can be very frustrating at times. Sometimes it is because the game is challenging and other times it is because the control are clunky. The game you can get used to, but a bad interface can ruin an otherwise good game.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/8/2007 1:13:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dksunglsses@... writes:

I'd like to throw my two cents in here, I personally have goten violent after playing sonic on sega, it gets very frustrating to get to a certain level and play it and play it and not get past it. I have thrown controlers across the room or wanted to toss the TV out the window. So I can understand even the simplest childs game being considered violent.

That's called frustration. I've been there myself many times. That's why I rarely played Sonic by myself. There were some parts I just could not get past for anything. However, I had a friend who had no trouble with those places at all, but couldn't get past places I had no trouble with. So, we would hand the controller back and forth and whoever got passed the hard part kept it until they hit the part they couldn't get past.

Still, games can be very frustrating at times. Sometimes it is because the game is challenging and other times it is because the control are clunky. The game you can get used to, but a bad interface can ruin an otherwise good game.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/8/2007 1:13:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dksunglsses@... writes:

I'd like to throw my two cents in here, I personally have goten violent after playing sonic on sega, it gets very frustrating to get to a certain level and play it and play it and not get past it. I have thrown controlers across the room or wanted to toss the TV out the window. So I can understand even the simplest childs game being considered violent.

That's called frustration. I've been there myself many times. That's why I rarely played Sonic by myself. There were some parts I just could not get past for anything. However, I had a friend who had no trouble with those places at all, but couldn't get past places I had no trouble with. So, we would hand the controller back and forth and whoever got passed the hard part kept it until they hit the part they couldn't get past.

Still, games can be very frustrating at times. Sometimes it is because the game is challenging and other times it is because the control are clunky. The game you can get used to, but a bad interface can ruin an otherwise good game.

[Guest guest]

I've played Doom (all three editions) and Call of Duty. These did not make me any more angry or aggressive than usual. The Hitman series, on the other hand, did make me more angry and hostile. Years ago when the first Doom game was out, I had a friend in the Army Rangers. They used it to teach basic urban combat tactics.

Any game could cause trouble and a lot of it depends on who is playing. Either a sore loser or a gloating winner can quickly make the game unbearable. Some of the childhood "friends" were like that. They would gloat, cheer and rub it in while they were ahead, but when the started to lose they'd get nasty. Not to mention that they would always cheat. The only amusing thing about the games is that eventually they would get so angry at each other that they would get in a fight. I doubt if they ever actually played a game through to the end. We're talking any game here from video games (which were just coming out), board games and even athletic games. I knew better than to play sports with them though since they always ganged up on me, being the smallest and that it would always end in a fight anyway.

[Guest guest]

I've played Doom (all three editions) and Call of Duty. These did not make me any more angry or aggressive than usual. The Hitman series, on the other hand, did make me more angry and hostile. Years ago when the first Doom game was out, I had a friend in the Army Rangers. They used it to teach basic urban combat tactics.

Any game could cause trouble and a lot of it depends on who is playing. Either a sore loser or a gloating winner can quickly make the game unbearable. Some of the childhood "friends" were like that. They would gloat, cheer and rub it in while they were ahead, but when the started to lose they'd get nasty. Not to mention that they would always cheat. The only amusing thing about the games is that eventually they would get so angry at each other that they would get in a fight. I doubt if they ever actually played a game through to the end. We're talking any game here from video games (which were just coming out), board games and even athletic games. I knew better than to play sports with them though since they always ganged up on me, being the smallest and that it would always end in a fight anyway.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/8/2007 12:46:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ravenmagic2003@... writes:

I want Cub to be able to think on his feet in times of moral contradiction (in my home, I teach my child that killing someone is wrong, harming someone is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc., however there are times when one must do what is wrong for the good of all ... i.e. killing is wrong except in cases where one is at war or if one's family is in danger of being killed or hurt).

I think this is where we have gone wrong. Growing up, I was taught that fighting and killing were bad, but that there were some times when it was necessary, like you say in war or defense of life or "clan." (Clan meaning family and close friends, provided said people haven't done something really stupid and brought it on themselves or have the police after them.)

We are in trouble in society because we have gone to the extremes. On the one hand there are the people who don't condone violence even in self-defense or in defense of nation and culture. At the other extreme there are people who will kill you for looking at them wrong. Both of those positions are bad for long term survival of a society. The first will lead to attack from without while the second leads to rot from within.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/8/2007 12:46:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ravenmagic2003@... writes:

I want Cub to be able to think on his feet in times of moral contradiction (in my home, I teach my child that killing someone is wrong, harming someone is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc., however there are times when one must do what is wrong for the good of all ... i.e. killing is wrong except in cases where one is at war or if one's family is in danger of being killed or hurt).

I think this is where we have gone wrong. Growing up, I was taught that fighting and killing were bad, but that there were some times when it was necessary, like you say in war or defense of life or "clan." (Clan meaning family and close friends, provided said people haven't done something really stupid and brought it on themselves or have the police after them.)

We are in trouble in society because we have gone to the extremes. On the one hand there are the people who don't condone violence even in self-defense or in defense of nation and culture. At the other extreme there are people who will kill you for looking at them wrong. Both of those positions are bad for long term survival of a society. The first will lead to attack from without while the second leads to rot from within.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/8/2007 2:49:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

I do hear a lot of complaining from people but don't see much effort to change anything.

That's because it is easier to talk than actually do something constructive.

With Iraq, most of the world's nation's intelligence agencies agreed that Sadaam had WMDs, was sheltering terrorists and so on. The UN played games with him for a decade and I'm sure many of us recall those inspection fiascoes. Finally, the US acted on a UN mandate to deal with Sadaam. We did and the world complained and hasn't stopped. Personally, I think Iraq was a mistake. It is tying up too much of our forces and the US has a pitiful lack of patience for long wars. I won't even mention media bias.

They did the same thing in Bosnia. The world was afraid of a regional or worse war in Europe and demanded the US help. We did and caught nothing but grief for it. The Somalis were starving because of warlords. The UN couldn't stop it, so the US went in. Again we caught nothing but grief and gloating after all those Rangers were killed. Now they are trying to do it with Sudan.

In my opinion, Europe should have handled the Balkans itself, it is there backyard after all. Somalia was a European problem too since it was a European colony. We could have helped in Liberia, which was a nation set up by the US mainly as a place for freed slaves to go to. However, because we were in Iraq, we didn't have the forces necessary to help during the last civil war there, and we should have since we set the nation up and have close ties with it. We aught to let some of these nations with the big mouths step up to the plate and do something themselves. Given how they can't even agree on a nuclear Iran, which by the way is already causing a nuclear arms race in the Middle East, I'm not expecting much.

It is like this on many causes though, not just military. Lots of people talk about problems but won't do anything about it, at least nothing actually productive.

[Guest guest]

RE Violence, and dealing with bullies. Somebody needs to write a video game that teaches skills for dealing with bullies, including something about when you have to, "have to", resort to fighting. I for one was in at least one knock-down serious fight every grade from the first through the tenth. (I was never the bully, always the bullied.) Violent bullying, especially for loner-type geeky young boys attending working-class public schools, is extremely common. (I understand that in British schools it's extremely bad.) Now that I'm much older I've learned over the years how better to control situations to avoid such conflicts, usually only narrowly though. Oddly, the four years of fairly intensive martial arts training during my twenties - the main thing I came away with from that was a far better ability to keep my cool in potentially violent situations. Perhaps partly it was a sense of greater

confidence in my ability to handle physical confrontations, but possibly more important was a sense that if I did get beat up it wasn't going to be the end of the world. That is the single biggest "skill" in avoiding fights and in dealing with bullies. Perhaps it is why someone on this list commented that video games such as Doom have seemed useful to them- they're thinking also their brains instead of compulsively with only their emotions when in life-threatening situations. Since then I've never been in a really serious fight, or at least not one that lasted very long or was very injurious. The point I'm trying to make here is...one, it's more complex than most people try to make it out to be... two, there are productive ways of being exposed to violence or violence-associated activities as well as the very counterproductive ways most people tend to focus on. Heph Jano Lora <kyorus06@...> wrote: Of course, if we take the meaning right to the book, and we decided to bann everything that is violent according all the asceptions of this word on the dictionary, we would end in stasis cells like in Matrix, with machines inducting us "Happy Dreams". But, even if they did that, if they were too happy, they would also become violent, because we may loose our "self-control" under too instense happyness emotions. BUT... Actually, we weren't disscussing here the

definition of "Violence" completely. We actually were talking about what parents normally address as "violence" on games. When they mean this, they use to reffer to the blood, gore, guts, hadokens and choryuukens being unleashed here and there for free. Putting the poor running Sonic into the same group is, in my humble opinion, is a lack of culture. Not because Sonic The Hedgehog is such a pillar of culture and everybody should now every detail about it (actually, Sonic is kind of the most famous/overlooked games because thought it has a lot of fans, it has never been able to compete against titans like Bross series, the series in general have been dark to the knowledge of anybody outside the SEGA consoles, which weren't that much popular either), but because I consider that if you are going to talk bad about something in specific, at least one need to do some research on the subject. PD1: playing

games like Doom, Halo, Resident Evil and the like has saved my life several times. In countries like mine, you survive or you die. There is no time for expensive paramilitar trainings... but that's a completely different story more related to the difference of being trained to think quickly when you have to hide behind a wall to avoid being packed with iron and being trained into playing zudoku, which I doubt will make much of a difference in a moment like that... but, is for like other kind of conversation... PD2: ... Can zudoku be called violent? I have seen people going nuts with it... *hahaha* ravenmagic2003 <ravenmagic2003 (DOT) ca> escribió: What a can of worms I opened when I posted this news article. Sheesh!Just

for the record, Jano, the word "violent" has more than one meaning. From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:Main Entry: vi·o·lent Pronunciation: -l & ntFunction: adjectiveEtymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin violentus; akin to Latin vis strength -- more at VIM1 : marked by extreme force or sudden intense activity <a violent attack>2 a : notably furious or vehement <a violent denunciation> b : EXTREME, INTENSE <violent pain> <violent colors>3 : caused by force : not natural <a violent death>4 a : emotionally agitated to the point of loss of self-control <became violent after an insult> b : prone to commit acts of violence <violent prison inmates> So you can see that a game such as the one you mentioned -- Sonic the Hedgehog -- could be seen as violent for children for whom it creates a marked intense reaction or who become

emotionally agitated to the point of loss of self-control.Had I known that posting the story would elicit such a violent reaction from so many members, I never would have posted it in the first place. Mea culpa.RavenCo-Administrator>> Oh yeah, a blue hedgehog that looks more or less like Mickey Mouse and runs everywhere trying to free his reality from a despotic crazy inventor that seems like taken out from the mind of Popeye's creator is really a promotor of violence... Damn, how couldn't I see it? Even if there isn't a single drop of blood in that game, how could I not see all the violence embed on it? *Geez* People nowadays should make much less violent games like games based on WB cartoons where a rabbit constantly behaves like a gay

kissing every man he meets or a coyote suffering all the possible accidents a living being can experiment... of course, that's not violent... or like that mouse and a cat that chase all day splitting their limbs or inflicting similar tortures and traps constantly... quiet educative and completely unviolent... Or, AH! I know... Why don't we start sending letters for video game makers to start making games about all the things that happen between the politics? That would> be AWESOME, isn't it? So educative and so full of morality and a lot of non-aggresive behavior... It would be just great... Oh, if the world just realized how terribly aggresive is Sonic The Hedgehog... *sigh*> > miminm <mnmimi@...> escribió: I would like to say this about that. > Ravi had a multideciplanary study which stated that although he was 5 > at the time his puzzle solving abilities were at an 8 yr

old's level. > The Psy heading the study stated in his report that this was common > among children that played video games. that being said NOT EVERY GAME > is a game that contributes to puzzle solving. So I hand pick goal > oriented games. Rayman for instance. Puzzle games NOT FIRST PERSON > SHOOTERS. Some of the maps that people create may do this. Spongebob > and other games like Sonic antually seem to promote agressive > behavior. So everybody get a grain of salt.> > > > > > > Jano C. Lora Paz> IPRI Leading Teacher> > ---------------------------------> > LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.> Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.> http://es.voice.>Jano C. Lora PazIPRI Leading Teacher LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.http://es.voice.

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[Guest guest]

mimi wrote: " ... <snip> ... Teletubbies are the root of all evil!

they reinforce baby talk and make the world seem foolish, Care Bears

are insipid as well ... <snip> ... "

Barney the Purple Dinosaur is the worst role model for children. The

Wiggles aren't much better than the Teletubbies except they are 'real'

people rather than whatever the Teletubbies are supposed to be. The

list is endless.

mimi wrote: " ... <snip> ... Rayman in my opinion requirs a degree of

problem solving that isn't too cutsie. It makes the player want to

reach the goals (there is violence in it) shooting, etc. ... "

We have all the Rayman games here. Cub has enjoyed the various

versions since he was 3. One thing that I found interesting is that

he identifies with Rayman insofar as Rayman seems disconnected from

his body parts. Cub said (since he was a pre-schooler) that he feels

disconnected like this when he is in the NT world. Interesting

observation.

mimi wrote: " ... <snip> ... I think games should be applicable (not

that I want my son to employ wartime strategies in everyday life) but

If his life depended on it then I would want him to hAVe that. "

I want Cub to be able to think on his feet in times of moral

contradiction (in my home, I teach my child that killing someone is

wrong, harming someone is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc., however

there are times when one must do what is wrong for the good of all ...

i.e. killing is wrong except in cases where one is at war or if one's

family is in danger of being killed or hurt).

Real life situations reported on the news and some video games assist

in this on-the-spot learning.

And yes, despite helping him learn this, he is still a very gentle

soul who is kind to animals and children, and has a big heart. He

would rather spend days trying to find a good solution to a problem

than see someone hurt emotionally or physically or mentally or

spiritually by a decision that was arrived at too quickly.

Raven

Co-Administrator

[Guest guest]

I have often thought that skills teaching in a virtual environment

would be helpful. I know (this could be exploited) Like in the sense

of Arnold Swartzanegger movies. but driving simulation. Bulling

simulation from the point of the bullied. I know it's too sci-fi and

could be misused but human nature gets in the way of teaching skills.

So tired of not being able to implement something useful because people

abuse those things. Honesty consideration " sigh "

[Guest guest]

I have often thought that skills teaching in a virtual environment

would be helpful. I know (this could be exploited) Like in the sense

of Arnold Swartzanegger movies. but driving simulation. Bulling

simulation from the point of the bullied. I know it's too sci-fi and

could be misused but human nature gets in the way of teaching skills.

So tired of not being able to implement something useful because people

abuse those things. Honesty consideration " sigh "