Re: Cleavage and legs, oh my!

September 7, 2006

In a message dated 9/7/2006 11:47:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, dksunglsses@... writes:

Honestly I don't think its your fault, If they didn't want people looking maybe they shouldn't have dressed so revealing. What they were doing was showing lack of selfconfidence.

I agree with this. They dressed like they did so they would get looked at. If they don't like they attention, then dress differently. It has been my experience that usually it isn't being looked at but who is doing the looking. Many times I've noticed provocatively dressed women get "self-conscious" when I was looking at them, but if a tall, Mr. Sporty, was looking, then they gave them a really good look.

Looking at ears etc. was mentioned. That doesn't really work these days. I've tried that and people have wondered what was wrong with their hair or whatever I was staring at.

Most of the time I'll look around the room or out a convenient window, making sure to make conversational sounds and ask questions or add comments so the person knows that I am still listening. Now and then I'll make quick eye contact with them but never hold it for very long.

It is interesting though that most other mammals consider eye contact to be confrontational. Probably we do too, deep down. However, the more dominant people have made eye contact the norm because they know that they will be able to stare down most other people and thus put themselves in the dominant position.

September 7, 2006

Yes! I look at people's necks or chests, and when I realize it I try

to cover by saying I like their necklace or shirt! A coworker got

uncomfortable in the same way you describe and said something, which

I'm glad so I'm more aware of it.

I've managed to do the look up thing and say 'hmmm' at the same time,

or put my hand on my chin and look down, along with other ways to

look away without it being obvious, but of course, it doesn't work

perfectly. The worst thing was when a friend would deliberately move

herself into my line of sight in a slightly exaggerated way to let me

know she was annoyed.

>

> Recently I encountered two situations where I was avoiding direct

eye

> contact with women and they started to get very uncomfortable

because of

> where they thought I was looking. One lady had a short skirt and

was sitting

> in a chair. During our conversation, she started to try to pull her

skirt

> down to cover up more and she finally moved her chair close to her

desk and

> hid her legs under the desk. Another lady had a low cut shirt on

and during

> our conversation, she wrapped her sweater around her and held it

together at

> her neck.

>

> Both times, I was pretty clueless until it became very obvious they

were

> deliberately covering up. Anyone have similar experiences? Or any

ideas how

> to avoid it. I guess my problem is that I usually look down when I

talk. If

> I look off to the side, the people always end up looking over their

should

> to see who I am looking at. I never tried looking up, that might

appear even

> more silly.

>

> Dan

>

September 7, 2006

RE eye-contact strategies. I'm always looking around the rest of the room. Often the first thing I ask when entering a place for the first time is- "Where's the bookcase?" Because I've done an incredible amount of reading over my lifetime (to say less would be false modesty) that then usually gives me something to fill in the "small-talk" sound-spaces. I also look around the room a lot- art, pictures, and so on. I haven't really figured it out yet why sometimes I have a more difficult time concentrating when there's eye contact, but I nearly always avoid it. People ~do~ tend to take offense, thinking you (or I) are (am) not paying attention to what they're saying. -And that ~is~ part of why I tend to strongly come across as impatient a lot of the time. I've noticed a lot of people, tournament chessplayers actually (where there is a concentration of people with ASD characteristics - say 20%?) ...chessplayers very often

hold their hands against their chins, or otherwise move their hands around their face areas. (Pulling on ears, stroking hair- self-stimming activities perhaps?) Anyway- I often play the "professor" role and sagely put my hand on my chin, stare off into space, and nod along with the cadence of their talking. -Sometimes nodding quickly, sometimes slowly, etcetera. (One of my almost-nicknames at one of the places I worked was "the absent-minded professor". -But I'm not so absent-minded as just differently-attending-miinded.) Sometimes I can manage to do what I think of as a pretty good task of maintaining eye-contact, but only when I'm really prepared for meetings or the other person has to do almost all of the talking. If I have to do any thinking at all, it's really difficult to do the eye-contact thing. So one strategy is to go into meetings really well prepared if it's a meeting where you have to demonstrate some level of

~their~ version of people skills. I have heard/read about the strategy of looking at people's ears and so on, but that has never really worked for me. Perhaps it's my comparatively older age...I don't really know. But it seems to me that any movement, expressiveness, about faces anywhere near my focal point just shuts down my brain/neo-cortex. Hmmm... I happen to have excellent peripheral vision- it's a long shot but maybe that has something to do with that. Heph mikecarrie01 <mikecarrie01@...> wrote: Yes! I look at people's necks or chests, and when I realize it I try to cover by saying I like their necklace or shirt! A coworker got uncomfortable in the same way you describe and said something, which I'm glad so I'm more aware of it.I've managed to do the look up thing and say 'hmmm' at the same time, or put my hand on my chin and look down, along with other ways to look away without it being obvious, but of course, it doesn't work perfectly. The worst thing was when a friend would deliberately move herself into my line of sight in a slightly exaggerated way to let me know she was annoyed.>> Recently I encountered two situations where I was avoiding direct

eye> contact with women and they started to get very uncomfortable because of> where they thought I was looking. One lady had a short skirt and was sitting> in a chair. During our conversation, she started to try to pull her skirt> down to cover up more and she finally moved her chair close to her desk and> hid her legs under the desk. Another lady had a low cut shirt on and during> our conversation, she wrapped her sweater around her and held it together at> her neck. > > Both times, I was pretty clueless until it became very obvious they were> deliberately covering up. Anyone have similar experiences? Or any ideas how> to avoid it. I guess my problem is that I usually look down when I talk. If> I look off to the side, the people always end up looking over their should> to see who I am looking at. I never tried looking up, that might

appear even> more silly.> > Dan>Hephaestus Clubfoothttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestushttp://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hephaestus.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabeiroi

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September 7, 2006

>

> " I'm always looking around the rest of the room. Often the first

thing I ask when entering a place for the first time is- " Where's the

bookcase? " "

" Anyway- I often play the " professor " role and sagely put my hand on

my chin, stare off into space, and nod along with the cadence of

their talking. -Sometimes nodding quickly, sometimes slowly,

etcetera. (One of my almost-nicknames at one of the places I worked

was " the absent-minded professor " . -But I'm not so absent-minded as

just differently-attending-miinded.) "

Oh, yes, the nodding thing, definitely. Unfortunately, in our society

the 'absent-minded professor' doesn't work as well with women, though

to some extent it does, depending on who you're with.

" I have heard/read about the strategy of looking at people's ears and

so on, but that has never really worked for me. Perhaps it's my

comparatively older age...I don't really know. But it seems to me

that any movement, expressiveness, about faces anywhere near my focal

point just shuts down my brain/neo-cortex. Hmmm... I happen to have

excellent peripheral vision- it's a long shot but maybe that has

something to do with that. "

Same with me. Beth's suggestion doesn't work for me because like you,

anywhere near the face incites a mild fear in me and my brain shuts

down, too. I think my peripheral vision is pretty good, I think a lot

of Aspies say there's is.

September 7, 2006

This is true. I am considered by most women to be good looking. And

when talking at them, I force myself to look them in the eye PRECISELY

so I do NOT get accused of sexual harrassment for looking somewhere

that I shouldn't be looking.

These women then tend to put their hands on my shoulders or chest while

talking to me, flare their chests out to me, and bump into me with

their hips.

But they do not do this with other men who are not as good looking and

who make similar eye contact.

Tom

Administrator

I agree with this. They dressed like they did so they would get looked

at. If they don't like they attention, then dress differently. It has

been my experience that usually it isn't being looked at but who is

doing the looking. Many times I've noticed provocatively dressed women

get " self-conscious " when I was looking at them, but if a tall, Mr.

Sporty, was looking, then they gave them a really good look.

September 7, 2006

I always feel sorry for men because they have to try so hard not to

look at a bust that is on display. They usually do a really good job

of not looking! I can never understand why women display themselves

like that. Every woman has breasts, why do they act like they have

something that is new and fabulous?

My husband, Mike, said in a talk that women need to understand that

if they want a good man, they're not going to get one by dressing to

display themselves and by doing all those tactics you mentioned. A

man that wants a good woman isn't going to look twice at women like

that.

>

> I agree with this. They dressed like they did so they would get

looked

> at. If they don't like they attention, then dress differently. It

has

> been my experience that usually it isn't being looked at but who is

> doing the looking. Many times I've noticed provocatively dressed

women

> get " self-conscious " when I was looking at them, but if a tall, Mr.

> Sporty, was looking, then they gave them a really good look.

>

September 7, 2006

Pick a spot just over one eyebrow (provided that the person has two

eyebrows and not that ugly Unibrow that some people have) and focus

there. This way no one will look over their shoulder, no one will

feel the need to cover up, and they will assume you are looking them

in the face.

Raven

Dan wrote: " Anyone have similar experiences? Or any ideas how to

avoid it. I guess my problem is that I usually look down when I talk.

If I look off to the side, the people always end up looking over their

should to see who I am looking at. I never tried looking up, that

might appear even more silly. "

September 7, 2006

>

" A professor of anthropology I used to know often said that in the

animal world when an animal stares at another it is either getting

ready to fight or mate. "

Interesting thoughts. This last one here, we discussed a little bit ago

on this forum--whether Aspies have that sense about eye contact, that

it's an agressive posture, like in the animal world.

>

September 7, 2006

One way of thinking about this is that most men have two types of mating programs in their brains, put there by forces of natural selection and the consequences of differential reproductive success in ancestral environments. One is to follow a short-term mating strategy- "Love 'em and leave 'em". And another is a long-term mating strategy involving investing in future children and so on. My strong intuition is that almost certainly this is a kind of personality dimension among men, but that most men are quite capable of following either strategy- having either program executed by their brain, depending on cultural effects in the long term, and more sensory-cue effects in the short term. The thing about women who show their cleavage for attention- there are lots of potential things going on there, but the men who are most likely to respond to that are men who are first of all more on the personality dimension toward following

short-term mating strategies. Second- those particular cues (which in some cultures are presumably more heavily sexualized than in others) I would guess might skew the perception by the male of that particular female away from cues about her being a potentially high-value long-term mating partner to cues about her value (to the differential reproductive success of the genes in the male) ...about her value as a short term mating partner. By the way- in the interests of trying to be fair...? Women very often follow a short term mating strategy- going after men who display indications of possessing "good genes". This used to be called a cuckoldry strategy, and still goes by that phrase in some areas.... And this strategy apparently happens far more often than animal ethologists 30 years ago, or human psychologists ten years ago, thought remotely likely. Heph

mikecarrie01 <mikecarrie01@...> wrote: I always feel sorry for men because they have to try so hard not to look at a bust that is on display. They usually do a really good job of not looking! I can never understand why women display themselves like that. Every woman has breasts, why do they act like they have something that is new and fabulous?My husband, Mike, said in a talk that women need to understand that if they want a good man, they're not going to get one by dressing to

display themselves and by doing all those tactics you mentioned. A man that wants a good woman isn't going to look twice at women like that.> > I agree with this. They dressed like they did so they would get looked > at. If they don't like they attention, then dress differently. It has > been my experience that usually it isn't being looked at but who is > doing the looking. Many times I've noticed provocatively dressed women > get "self-conscious" when I was looking at them, but if a tall, Mr. > Sporty, was looking, then they gave them a really good look.>Hephaestus Clubfoothttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestushttp://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hephaestus.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabeiroi

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September 7, 2006

But that's what's foolish about these women--why follow the short-

term mating strategy or go for the 'good genes' if they want a long-

term relationship with someone who has a good heart? Women seem to be

acting out of some drive, maybe, and not thinking properly about it.

The 'good provider' plays in there for women, but they still don't

think it through, and in a balanced way, considering all factors. Men

understand the difference between their drive and their sense (well,

okay, not always ), but they are better at distinguishing and

acting likewise. Sometimes they assume women understand the

distinctions (or don't care), but many women don't.

> >

> > I agree with this. They dressed like they did so they would get

> looked

> > at. If they don't like they attention, then dress differently. It

> has

> > been my experience that usually it isn't being looked at but who

is

> > doing the looking. Many times I've noticed provocatively dressed

> women

> > get " self-conscious " when I was looking at them, but if a tall,

Mr.

> > Sporty, was looking, then they gave them a really good look.

> >

>

> Hephaestus Clubfoot

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus

> http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hephaestus.html

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabeiroi

>

> ---------------------------------

> Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and

30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

>

September 7, 2006