Re: Pseudo Culture

August 9, 2005

I've been participating on the net now for three years or so and I

will say that I have noted an increasingly " us versus them " mentality

developing on autistic spectrum message boards.

I think this stems from people talking collectively about their

negative experiences that they've had circulating among the general

populace.

As much as we might like to point a finger at someone, or at some

group and say, " That person, or persons is/are not like us. Therefore

they are NT, " doing so gets us in trouble.

We have no way of knowing who is or isn't AS or neurotypical and we

are wrong to point the finger at others, label them, and then blame

them for our troubles. It forces people who don't even know what's

going on to accept punishments we derive for them for things they are

not guilty of or responsible for.

By labeling people as NTs, we are categorizing them. By associating

negative characteristics with them, we are by association giving the

term " NT " a negative value.

This is counterproductive in my opinion.

It's good that we can talk amongst ourselves and share the various

stories of persecutions we have had under the feet of other people,

but it's not good that we label these other people as being " NT "

collectively.

The more I think about this, the more I come to think that there is

simply one spectrum upon which the entire human race falls, and

relatively speaking, autistics take up only a small fraction of the

spectrum and everyone else takes up the rest of it.

Viewed in this light, it means humanity can be reflected in a rainbow

as it gets refracted through the prism of terms and designations.

We ought to be setting an example of tolerance. We ought to be

demonstrating that we have the capability to succeed. We ought to

prove ourselves to others.

THAT is the way to gain better treatment from others. We are not

going to make friends among other people who aren't like us if we

simply label other people and heap scorn and derision on top of them.

To do so would mean that one small bit of the overall spectrum

expects to be favored by the rest of it, which is absurd.

Ideally, everyone ought to hold an equal position on such a spectrum.

I see other sites blasting " NT's " and I think to myself that far from

maturing, the autistic community is degenerating.

How does anyone feel about this?

Tom

I have concluded it is nothing other then a social mentality.

In some cases if you do not fit in or do not comply with its

philosophy your considered the N.T. That is to say you are considered

% N.T and not the reformed mind of its philosophy. So in a way it is

like religion.

It has developed in to sub-classifications when it was supposed to be

some kind of parody. I can say for myself that it was more then

mildly confusing for a while as I took it VERY literally.

I suppose if one does not comply to its ideology one is not as they

are diagnosed or simply not of it?

I do not agree with the N.T labeling, individuals seem to take many

tests online. The N.T label is not a real diagnosis it is based upon

differences in relation to the whole.

So what exists is self (one) in comparative relation to diagnostic

criterion. Essentially it is a diagnostic label becoming the social

identity then self and group to another I-Complex (individual

Complex, another person)

I am not autism, autistic, aspie or Asperger's. I am myself not

pseudo labels.

I suppose it is like a game in a way perhaps. Or a movie and or fan

club sayings as to fit in within a social group.

I could use the N.T label but it just doesn't seem to be logical, it

seems as if it is based on polarities of extremes of differences in

an obviously non-factual highly subjective though rigid conceptual

model.

I don't know what words to use to explain, none seem to match my

thought.

I'm nothing like anyone I've ever met even those with similarities..

So I'll go ahead and be the black sheep (the odd one out).

Individuals diagnosed with A.S are called odd so some individuals

with A.S call the made up label N.T odd. NeuroTypicals don't exist

however, only people not like one-self.

It's simple reversion.

August 9, 2005

Tom:

> I've been participating on the net now for three years or so and I

> will say that I have noted an increasingly " us versus them " mentality

> developing on autistic spectrum message boards.

I think this is necesary for building-up our identity. Every group works

like this when they build their identity. Without the concept that we

are alike, increased self-understanding is not possible.

> I think this stems from people talking collectively about their

> negative experiences that they've had circulating among the general

> populace.

Very possible

> As much as we might like to point a finger at someone, or at some

> group and say, " That person, or persons is/are not like us. Therefore

> they are NT, " doing so gets us in trouble.

I agree that we should not tell people they are NTs. This will get us

in trouble, but we are still allowed to talk about such issues *amongs

ourselves*. Other people do this all the time.

> By labeling people as NTs, we are categorizing them. By associating

> negative characteristics with them, we are by association giving the

> term " NT " a negative value.

I think it is inevitable that any term used for NTs / non-autistics will

sooner or later become negative. I don't like the idea of changing terms

all the time as they get a bad reputation.

> This is counterproductive in my opinion.

>

> It's good that we can talk amongst ourselves and share the various

> stories of persecutions we have had under the feet of other people,

> but it's not good that we label these other people as being " NT "

> collectively.

I can't see the harm as long as we keep it to ourselves and don't

go around telling NTs they are bad.

> The more I think about this, the more I come to think that there is

> simply one spectrum upon which the entire human race falls, and

> relatively speaking, autistics take up only a small fraction of the

> spectrum and everyone else takes up the rest of it.

I don't agree. We take up a considerable part of the human spectrum

even though our numbers are small.

> We ought to be setting an example of tolerance. We ought to be

> demonstrating that we have the capability to succeed. We ought to

> prove ourselves to others.

Do you have a good plan for this?

> I see other sites blasting " NT's " and I think to myself that far from

> maturing, the autistic community is degenerating.

Not necesarily. The autistic community have not yet come to

terms with itself as I see it. We still need to learn a

lot more about ourselves, and this process requires relating

to others and pointing out the differences.

Leif

August 9, 2005

There is no such thing as N.T, I know no one else with A.S besides myself in the real world. Psychologically adapting to a whole ideology concerning 99.99% of those I will ever see, happen to talk to, or be of witness to as N.T's is ridiculous. You’re asking for real people living in this world reading this text to adapt to a system of conceptualized belief based upon a textual reality existence completely in the mind.

Other people are other people and technically aside from text forms on my screen none of you exist other then text forms <An improper form of self association compared to the real world> . I do not know anyone else with A.S or any form of autism so there is no REAL reality comparative. Well I don’t know many people anyways.

Understanding the world through this type of theory of humanity doesn’t seem correct nor should it be expected that those medically diagnosed finding these sites be EXPECTED to.Most others with autism will never learn about it, never adapt to it nor consider it later on as time goes by. As is it is not a popular belief of human diversity let alone influenced by such a falsity.

It is not logical, I am not apart of any autism race, minority group, culture or identity group. It's text chat on a screen aside from that the illusion of it.

August 9, 2005

It is only practical to those with social skills and ability to do such things either economicaly and or personaly situationaly.

Also one must be interested in doing so, I am not interested in socializing and I am not sure why.

Leif Ekblad <leif@...> wrote:

> There is no such thing as N.T, I know no one else with A.S besides myselfin the real world.Perhaps you should meet others? I've met several people IRL, includingInger, andmost are actually much nicer IRL than online.> Psychologically adapting to a whole ideology concerning 99.99% of those Iwill> ever see, happen to talk to, or be of witness to as N.T's is ridiculous.You're> asking for real people living in this world reading this text to adapt toa system> of conceptualized belief based upon a textual reality existencecompletely in the mind.As soon as you get to know real people it is not just textual beliefs ;-)> It is not logical, I am not apart of any autism race, minority group,culture> or identity group.At least I feel part of

it....Leif

August 9, 2005

Natron,

the classic analogy of what you are saying can best be served by your answer to the following example.

The use of the term NT would be exactly the same as the use of the term 'gentile'. That is by way of comparison a group that is NOT jewish. This in effect is a term given to Non jewish people by jewish people themselves with whatever connotation could be applied or construed by the subjects of the label. Therefore the term Gentiles under your code of reasoning cannot be real

Yet to Jewish people it is very real and is a cohesive glue that holds them together.

Is the term Non-believer given to athiests by christians then also a misnomer.

In the case of Non-believers being labeled gentiles what purpose could that have cerved jews then.

Heretics too then cannot exist for they are just a class that are seen to be rejecting a belief system. What are your view on this then?

Maybe it gave them a bonding forum to group under a common umbrella and yes under the majority they were repressed. Just as aspies have to live in a world with social rules written by a majority.

You see untill the human genome has been fully documented and all its variations recorded then we are hypothesing about a genetic thread. But the history in my family at least shows that happenining in 3 consecutive generations would be more than a billion to one occurence and it occurs in many aspie families as well.

So under the arguments I have outlined then yes there are NTs and yes there are AS individuals self cast as aspies.

Evannatronpc <globalmerchantorg@...> wrote:

No, not really I think of things as many ways as possible without being an "ism" or "otherwise". I just cannot make sense of it (figure it out) and what it means or could mean. I am interested the mentality and it's many interpretations <possibilities> from various angularities of thought.

I have no intent to be negative, its just seems the culture and its terminologies seem not compatible with my mind. This though despite attempting at one point but I couldn’t stop myself from thinking of its concept for such a long period of time.

joe <spaceplayer2112@...> wrote:

Natron, just curious, are you an Objectivist?__________________________________________________

August 9, 2005

> Eh... medical label??

> It's not exactly in the DSM. It's only a word invented

> by autistics wanted a word for non-autistics.

I did not know this as it's very much in all the aspie/autistic

literature I've read. However, it's just as accurate a word as aspie

or autistic. It describes a goup of people whose behaviours fall

within a certain spectrum. That's what a diagnosis of Asperger's

Syndrom or Autism does.

Yes? No?

Lizzie

http://pg.photos./ph/chain3turn/my_photos

http://www.livejournal.com/users/samplerlady/

http://literarylady.blogspot.com/

" To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong. "

ph Chilton Pierce

August 9, 2005

I think it is natural that there is venting against the NTs, though it can be taken too far. What you have to keep in mind is how much trouble NTs cause for us and how many names they have for us that they often say with open malice. All we have for them is NT (though I add Uber-NT as well).

Given that we have so many negative experiences with them, it is no wonder NT picks up some of the taint.

However, I fully agree with Leif. Changing to a new term for them will only last as long as it takes for that word to get tainted as well, and so on as the cycle repeats. Since NT is pretty much the standard in the AS community and it used by the pros as well, might as well keep it. Sure it will pick up some negative connotation, but I think we all know that not all NTs are bad.

We're going to have to call outselves something and everyone else by another name. That's just the way it is. If we don't, our speech and minds will be too cluttered to think coherently.

August 9, 2005

>Tom writes: "We ought to be setting an example of tolerance. We ought to be demonstrating that we have the capability to succeed. We ought to prove ourselves to others.>How does anyone feel about this?I agree!! Couldn't say it better! Rainbow

August 9, 2005

>Nathon writes: "I am not interested in socializing and I am not sure why."This is truly hard to believe considering the number of your posts! Rainbow

August 9, 2005

Here is another way to look at it.

We the word "ship". When you think of "ship" a picture will probably come to mind, representing what "ship" means to you.

However, "ship" is just an order or family if you will, the generalization of all kinds of ships. The next level down would be: warships, merchant ships, cruise ships, submarines, research ships, etc.

Each of these can be broken down further:

Warship: Battleship, r, Cruiser, Destroyer, Frigate, Landing Ship, etc.

Merchant: Tanker, Bulk Cargo r, Roll-on Roll-off ships, Containers ships.etc.

Each of these categories can also be broken down:

Battleship: Dreadnaught class, Bismark class, Iowa class, etc.

Another level down about be specific ships: Dreadnaught, Bismark, Iowa (the lead ships of their classes), Yamato, Hood, Arizona, etc.

This is how detailed you can get just with "ship".

The same applies with humans, with "human" in place of "ship".

So we would have: AS and NT

Followed by:

AS: Technophile, Systemizer, Logician, Etc.

NT: Sportsnut, Chatterbox, Fashion hound, Etc.

I could break this down more but really don't feel inclined to because I think you can see the progression here.

The point is NT and AS are both just broad general statements meant to categorize the lot of humanity. Within each are many subcategories with subcategories within them. Most people in both are decent but there are also bad ones too. That's just the way it is.

August 9, 2005

In a message dated 8/9/2005 4:08:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, rainbow@... writes:

Then I must be dreaming right now. Being part of F.A.M. is an important part of MY real life. If I were not participating in real life at this very moment, then what is it that you imagine I AM doing? My computer is as much a part of my real life as my toothbrush, my clothes, and my lunch!

I agree. We may just be looking at a screen but there are real people on the other side. These messages aren't just coming out of the Ether.

Playing the Sims or something like that is not real and is just the computer. That is assuming that you aren't playing online of course.

August 9, 2005

You know, if an NT is really ticking me off, NT is the last in a long line of things that I could call them. What good is the point of insulting someone if they don't understand what you mean? Calling them a, well use you imagination and a bit of creative mixing of 4-letter words and improbable sexual acots, and there you go, they will understand that. No having to explain the whole NT AS thing to someone you'd rather be punching out.

August 9, 2005

Its seems to me that is babies are going to be tested an eliminated because of the potential of being AS, then there must be someone who sees AS a bad thing. That would probably fall under:

Human: NT: Self-Absorbed Cyberite: Aspiphobe.

August 9, 2005

Shaun,

You do have a point. Many traditional cultures have saying like the traditional Japanese, "The highest nail gets beaten down". This saying meant that anyone who tried to excell was seen as a social threat to the others and so was ridiculed and harassed until they gave up and fell back into line.

In the west the only acceptable "exceptionals" are the entertainers like the sports figures, rock stars and actors. I suppose that is acceptable because most people can relate to those lives. However, they can't relate to the real achievers: the doctors curing disease, the scientists learning how the world works or even the engineers who design the toys they can watch their idols on.

August 9, 2005

In a message dated 8/9/2005 4:55:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, scwmachinations@... writes:

Being new to the Aspie world.

I'm not to sure whether or not aspies are as well are a part of that idiot majority.

I dont think that cause one is aspie that that guarantees intelligence.

Maybe the ratio is the same. I do not know.

Shaun.

PS. present company excluded of course.

Undoubtedly there are AS idiots and jerks too. My father was probably one of them: he may or may not be AS but he was one the meanest, oneriest, spiteful men I have ever had the misfortune to know.

August 9, 2005

In a message dated 8/9/2005 5:46:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

Possibly your father was one of my prior bosses. Certainly sounds like it.Tom

LOL,

I don't think so unless you worked in sburg city planning 20 years ago. After that he wasn't a boss again. Well, he did have his Christian Book Store, but that business failed terribly and cost im a lot of money.

August 9, 2005

:

> However, I fully agree with Leif. Changing to a new term for them will

only last as long as it takes for that word to get

> tainted as well, and so on as the cycle repeats. Since NT is pretty much

the standard in the AS community and it used

> by the pros as well, might as well keep it. Sure it will pick up some

negative connotation, but I think we all know that

> not all NTs are bad.

>

> We're going to have to call outselves something and everyone else by

another name.

Yep. I'd rather change the names of ourselves than of everyone else. Aspie

in my

ears still have some negative association (with Aspergers Syndrome, which is

a medical label of a disorder). Neurotypical has no negative association

with

disorders at all (except for some aspie-sites like isnt). I'd still accept

Aspie

because it is well known in the whole autistic community.

Leif

August 9, 2005

I prefer to be called "high functioning" with the autism word left out.

Something new to the conversation, how many out there of us have had intense religious or spiritual experiences?

Could have religious figures of past been aspects.

ie, intense focus on spiritual matters.

Shaun.VISIGOTH@... wrote:

I think it is natural that there is venting against the NTs, though it can be taken too far. What you have to keep in mind is how much trouble NTs cause for us and how many names they have for us that they often say with open malice. All we have for them is NT (though I add Uber-NT as well).

Given that we have so many negative experiences with them, it is no wonder NT picks up some of the taint.

However, I fully agree with Leif. Changing to a new term for them will only last as long as it takes for that word to get tainted as well, and so on as the cycle repeats. Since NT is pretty much the standard in the AS community and it used by the pros as well, might as well keep it. Sure it will pick up some negative connotation, but I think we all know that not all NTs are bad.

We're going to have to call outselves something and everyone else by another name. That's just the way it is. If we don't, our speech and minds will be too cluttered to think coherently.

for Mobile Take with you! Check email on your mobile phone.

August 9, 2005

Shaun:

I had. [^-^] And I have seen God on a dream, it was the most beautyfull dream I ever had. Really gentle guy, (despite it was absolutely imposible to tell if he was a "he" or a "she"). I will never forget it. I am not particulary of any religion, but I do believe on the good lord, even when I consider myself a scientist, and I do it just under the simple idea that something so complex and beautyfull like the universe can't simply exist with a "creator" of some sort, being it whatever it could be. Is a very open minded idea, I think. But is just my humble opinion.

JanoS W <scwmachinations@...> escribió:

I prefer to be called "high functioning" with the autism word left out.

Something new to the conversation, how many out there of us have had intense religious or spiritual experiences?

Could have religious figures of past been aspects.

ie, intense focus on spiritual matters.

Shaun.VISIGOTH@... wrote:

I think it is natural that there is venting against the NTs, though it can be taken too far. What you have to keep in mind is how much trouble NTs cause for us and how many names they have for us that they often say with open malice. All we have for them is NT (though I add Uber-NT as well).

Given that we have so many negative experiences with them, it is no wonder NT picks up some of the taint.

However, I fully agree with Leif. Changing to a new term for them will only last as long as it takes for that word to get tainted as well, and so on as the cycle repeats. Since NT is pretty much the standard in the AS community and it used by the pros as well, might as well keep it. Sure it will pick up some negative connotation, but I think we all know that not all NTs are bad.

We're going to have to call outselves something and everyone else by another name. That's just the way it is. If we don't, our speech and minds will be too cluttered to think coherently.

for MobileTake with you! Check email on your mobile phone.

Correo Comprueba qué es nuevo, aquíhttp://correo..es

August 9, 2005

Shaun,

I've had extensive religious training. More than most anyway. And I've

always taken an interest in good vs. evil in the Christian sense of

the word.

I do believe that the extra-sensitivity that many Aspies experience

causes them to see the world in a way that is more than purely

material.

Even non-religious Aspies, or Aspies that have no beliefs in a divine

power still seem to think in abstract terms about existence.

Tom

I prefer to be called " high functioning " with the autism word left out.

Something new to the conversation, how many out there of us have had

intense religious or spiritual experiences?

Could have religious figures of past been aspects.

ie, intense focus on spiritual matters.

Shaun.

August 9, 2005

Someone else said N.T was a medical label. There seems to be much confussion and believing of contents written by non-trained individuals.

Autistics is part of a group or cultural identity that is an illusion.. One may have autism but they are not autism.

As I said N.T was a made up label. It is not factual to a mind that must work with facts.

Inger Lorelei <inglori@...> wrote:

Eh... medical label??It's not exactly in the DSM. It's only a word invented by autistics to wanted a word for non-autistics.Inger Re: Pseudo Culture>> There is no such thing as N.T there is you and the rest of the worldand it's people. Then there are those that have general similaritiesgiven a medical label called A.S.And there are those that have general similarities and given a medicallabel called NT.Lizziehttp://pg.photos./ph/chain3turn/my_photoshttp://www.livejournal.com/users/samplerlady/http://literarylady.blogspot.com/"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong."ph Chilton PierceFAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and acceptance. Everyone is valued.Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page in the folder marked "Other FAM Sites."

August 9, 2005

My code of reasoning is never the same, always explores many possibnilities and methods of percieving. It has nothing to do with religion other then the fact it requires one to believe something that cannot be proven.

No there are no such things as N.T's. You believe there are such things as N.T's however the real and true reality of an individual is likely to be much different then the stereotypes placed upon it.

Evan Sinclair <cennis007@...> wrote: