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It depends on my mood. When I'm feeling bad and need a good pick me up, I

use the calipers. LOL Usually, I use my scale, though, to be totally

honest with myself and make sure I'm getting the right information so I can

figure my calorie needs and see the results of fat loss from my program.

Tonya

Re: Re: measurements

Hmm.. I guess I assumed that the ratio of topical fat would also be an

indicator of internal fat as well. So, which method do you use

Tonya? I have lange calipers, but I don't trust myself enough to use

them and get accurate readings. I know it's so easy to be off the

readings.

Darcy

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Tonya -

<tonya@...> wrote:

>

> Skinfold measurements would be ranked 3rd. The reason is that they only

> measure topical body fat, not the fat around the organs which can be more

> dangerous.

------------------------------------

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It depends on my mood. When I'm feeling bad and need a good pick me up, I

use the calipers. LOL Usually, I use my scale, though, to be totally

honest with myself and make sure I'm getting the right information so I can

figure my calorie needs and see the results of fat loss from my program.

Tonya

Re: Re: measurements

Hmm.. I guess I assumed that the ratio of topical fat would also be an

indicator of internal fat as well. So, which method do you use

Tonya? I have lange calipers, but I don't trust myself enough to use

them and get accurate readings. I know it's so easy to be off the

readings.

Darcy

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Tonya -

<tonya@...> wrote:

>

> Skinfold measurements would be ranked 3rd. The reason is that they only

> measure topical body fat, not the fat around the organs which can be more

> dangerous.

------------------------------------

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I'd also like to add something to the mix. When I eat nutritious foods

in appropriate amounts, I wake up feeling better, and I'm more likely

to have a quality workout. I feel better throughout the day, and I'm

more likely to go for another walk, or do another activity. My system

doesn't feel gunked up and heavy, and I sleep much, much better. I'm

also more likely to fend off all those little colds and viruses that

come along. Those bugs make you miss workouts. All of this means that

I'll work out more often, and my workouts will kick butt, and I'll be

albe to work out longer without pooping out.

This translates to a much higher calorie burn over time.

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 5:11 AM, Darcy Ledman <exercise.junkie@...> wrote:

> I don't think you are understanding totally Jen.  Exercise IS surely

> important, but it's not the #1 factor in weightloss.  Your diet is.

> Your diet is 70 - 80% of the equation of fat loss.  The other is

> exercise.  In order to be as healthy as you can be, yes you need both.

>  IN FACT, speaking of HEALTHY only, it is better to eat a high-fat

> diet and to exercise, than it is to eat healthy and not exercise.

> That is " to be healthy " , not to lose weight.

>

> Make sense?

>

> Darcy

>

> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:37 AM,  <nancydewolf@...> wrote:

>> I think that the best approach is to watch what you eat AND exercise, not do

>> 80% diet and 20% of exercise.   I found some studies say that diet is more

>> important and other studies say exercise is more important.

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

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I'd also like to add something to the mix. When I eat nutritious foods

in appropriate amounts, I wake up feeling better, and I'm more likely

to have a quality workout. I feel better throughout the day, and I'm

more likely to go for another walk, or do another activity. My system

doesn't feel gunked up and heavy, and I sleep much, much better. I'm

also more likely to fend off all those little colds and viruses that

come along. Those bugs make you miss workouts. All of this means that

I'll work out more often, and my workouts will kick butt, and I'll be

albe to work out longer without pooping out.

This translates to a much higher calorie burn over time.

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 5:11 AM, Darcy Ledman <exercise.junkie@...> wrote:

> I don't think you are understanding totally Jen.  Exercise IS surely

> important, but it's not the #1 factor in weightloss.  Your diet is.

> Your diet is 70 - 80% of the equation of fat loss.  The other is

> exercise.  In order to be as healthy as you can be, yes you need both.

>  IN FACT, speaking of HEALTHY only, it is better to eat a high-fat

> diet and to exercise, than it is to eat healthy and not exercise.

> That is " to be healthy " , not to lose weight.

>

> Make sense?

>

> Darcy

>

> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:37 AM,  <nancydewolf@...> wrote:

>> I think that the best approach is to watch what you eat AND exercise, not do

>> 80% diet and 20% of exercise.   I found some studies say that diet is more

>> important and other studies say exercise is more important.

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

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Great explanation, Darcy, thanks!

Re: Re: measurements

I don't think you are understanding totally Jen. Exercise IS surelyimportant, but it's not the #1 factor in weightloss. Your diet is.Your diet is 70 - 80% of the equation of fat loss. The other isexercise. In order to be as healthy as you can be, yes you need both.IN FACT, speaking of HEALTHY only, it is better to eat a high-fatdiet and to exercise, than it is to eat healthy and not exercise.That is "to be healthy", not to lose weight.Make sense?DarcyOn Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:37 AM, <nancydewolfsbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote:> I think that the best approach is to watch what you eat AND exercise, not do> 80% diet and 20% of exercise. I found some studies say that diet is more> important and other studies say exercise is more important.

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Eeeek! I had a skinfold test done with the calipers about 12 years ago and heard that I had about 26% fat... and if that could have been 10-15 percent off... eeek! It was depressing enough just hearing what I did. This was at a gym during one of my many "I'm so committed to exercising, losing weight and getting healthy" phases that each usually lasted about 2 or 3 months. I'm going on 2 1/2 years of mostly consistently working out 3-6 days per week now (with time off for injury and dealing with various garbage this past winter) though!. When the trainer (a different one in a different place) this time used the scale and not the calipers I was curious but didn't ask why, just liked what I heard and hoped it was accurate! :-)

I heard about the fat around the organs for the first time while watching Biggest Loser this season. Sounded very scary and it sounded like many participants really reduced their health risks regarding that layer of fat quite dramatically.

RE: Re: measurements

Skinfold measurements would be ranked 3rd. The reason is that they onlymeasure topical body fat, not the fat around the organs which can be moredangerous. Usually, I've seen that calipers give a reading of 10-15 percentlower than the scales, which can be good for the mental outlook, but notnecessarily accurate.Tonya-----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of Darcy LedmanSent: Monday, June 01, 2009 6:29 AM Subject: Re: Re: measurementsI didn't realize it was the 2nd best either Tonya. Hmm.. I have aTanita body fat scale, but take what it says like a grain of salt.Where do you put skinfold measurements into this? I thought that wasmore accurate?DarcyOn Sun, May 31, 2009 at 8:17 PM, <nancydewolfsbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote:> Bioelectrical impedance is the 2nd best form of body composition> measurement behind hydrostatic weighing, which is extremely expensive and> usually only offered at universities and hospitals.------------------------------------

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Eeeek! I had a skinfold test done with the calipers about 12 years ago and heard that I had about 26% fat... and if that could have been 10-15 percent off... eeek! It was depressing enough just hearing what I did. This was at a gym during one of my many "I'm so committed to exercising, losing weight and getting healthy" phases that each usually lasted about 2 or 3 months. I'm going on 2 1/2 years of mostly consistently working out 3-6 days per week now (with time off for injury and dealing with various garbage this past winter) though!. When the trainer (a different one in a different place) this time used the scale and not the calipers I was curious but didn't ask why, just liked what I heard and hoped it was accurate! :-)

I heard about the fat around the organs for the first time while watching Biggest Loser this season. Sounded very scary and it sounded like many participants really reduced their health risks regarding that layer of fat quite dramatically.

RE: Re: measurements

Skinfold measurements would be ranked 3rd. The reason is that they onlymeasure topical body fat, not the fat around the organs which can be moredangerous. Usually, I've seen that calipers give a reading of 10-15 percentlower than the scales, which can be good for the mental outlook, but notnecessarily accurate.Tonya-----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of Darcy LedmanSent: Monday, June 01, 2009 6:29 AM Subject: Re: Re: measurementsI didn't realize it was the 2nd best either Tonya. Hmm.. I have aTanita body fat scale, but take what it says like a grain of salt.Where do you put skinfold measurements into this? I thought that wasmore accurate?DarcyOn Sun, May 31, 2009 at 8:17 PM, <nancydewolfsbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote:> Bioelectrical impedance is the 2nd best form of body composition> measurement behind hydrostatic weighing, which is extremely expensive and> usually only offered at universities and hospitals.------------------------------------

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Great explanation, Darcy, thanks!

Re: Re: measurements

I don't think you are understanding totally Jen. Exercise IS surelyimportant, but it's not the #1 factor in weightloss. Your diet is.Your diet is 70 - 80% of the equation of fat loss. The other isexercise. In order to be as healthy as you can be, yes you need both.IN FACT, speaking of HEALTHY only, it is better to eat a high-fatdiet and to exercise, than it is to eat healthy and not exercise.That is "to be healthy", not to lose weight.Make sense?DarcyOn Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:37 AM, <nancydewolfsbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote:> I think that the best approach is to watch what you eat AND exercise, not do> 80% diet and 20% of exercise. I found some studies say that diet is more> important and other studies say exercise is more important.

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LOL about the pick me up!

RE: Re: measurements

It depends on my mood. When I'm feeling bad and need a good pick me up, Iuse the calipers. LOL Usually, I use my scale, though, to be totallyhonest with myself and make sure I'm getting the right information so I canfigure my calorie needs and see the results of fat loss from my program. Tonya-----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of Darcy LedmanSent: Monday, June 01, 2009 8:13 AM Subject: Re: Re: measurementsHmm.. I guess I assumed that the ratio of topical fat would also be anindicator of internal fat as well. So, which method do you useTonya? I have lange calipers, but I don't trust myself enough to usethem and get accurate readings. I know it's so easy to be off thereadings.DarcyOn Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Tonya -<tonyatrainingwithtonya> wrote:>> Skinfold measurements would be ranked 3rd. The reason is that they only> measure topical body fat, not the fat around the organs which can be more> dangerous.------------------------------------

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LOL about the pick me up!

RE: Re: measurements

It depends on my mood. When I'm feeling bad and need a good pick me up, Iuse the calipers. LOL Usually, I use my scale, though, to be totallyhonest with myself and make sure I'm getting the right information so I canfigure my calorie needs and see the results of fat loss from my program. Tonya-----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of Darcy LedmanSent: Monday, June 01, 2009 8:13 AM Subject: Re: Re: measurementsHmm.. I guess I assumed that the ratio of topical fat would also be anindicator of internal fat as well. So, which method do you useTonya? I have lange calipers, but I don't trust myself enough to usethem and get accurate readings. I know it's so easy to be off thereadings.DarcyOn Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Tonya -<tonyatrainingwithtonya> wrote:>> Skinfold measurements would be ranked 3rd. The reason is that they only> measure topical body fat, not the fat around the organs which can be more> dangerous.------------------------------------

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i have found this thread very interesting!! there are many approaches to weight

loss to be sure. imo, a lot of it depends on the metabolism of the individual.

the trick is to find your own formula for success. for me, a person with a

slower metabolism, my diet has to be fairly strict--any extra calories will

result in weight gain--even if i am exercising.

because i have been in weight watchers since the fall and have lost weight i can

say that the percentage given for a ratio of weight loss and exercise is

probably a well researched conclusion (since they have been collecting info

since the 1960's).

stacey

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i have found this thread very interesting!! there are many approaches to weight

loss to be sure. imo, a lot of it depends on the metabolism of the individual.

the trick is to find your own formula for success. for me, a person with a

slower metabolism, my diet has to be fairly strict--any extra calories will

result in weight gain--even if i am exercising.

because i have been in weight watchers since the fall and have lost weight i can

say that the percentage given for a ratio of weight loss and exercise is

probably a well researched conclusion (since they have been collecting info

since the 1960's).

stacey

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Hi,

Throwing in my non-expert advice - I agree that diet is (unfortunately) the largest part of weight loss By 'diet" I mean eating an appropriate number of calories that results in a calorie deficit (if you wish to lose weight). Basically, you have to take less calories than you need in to your body in order to lose weight. Most exercise sessions burn only a couple of hundred calories which is, for most of us, not even one meal per day. Unless you are a professional athlete who trains for hours a day you still need to be super careful w/ what you eat and, be sure to create a calorie deficit if you wish to lose weight. To further complicate things - we all are different metabolically - so what may create a calorie defiicit (in terms of number of calories consumed) for one, may not create one for someone else A lot of it is trial and error.

And, I do agree, to be healthy you need to watch both what you eat (quality), how many calories you consume (quantity) and get plenty of regular exercise.

Donna

> I think that the best approach is to watch what you eat AND exercise, not do> 80% diet and 20% of exercise. I found some studies say that diet is more> important and other studies say exercise

is more important.

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Hi,

Throwing in my non-expert advice - I agree that diet is (unfortunately) the largest part of weight loss By 'diet" I mean eating an appropriate number of calories that results in a calorie deficit (if you wish to lose weight). Basically, you have to take less calories than you need in to your body in order to lose weight. Most exercise sessions burn only a couple of hundred calories which is, for most of us, not even one meal per day. Unless you are a professional athlete who trains for hours a day you still need to be super careful w/ what you eat and, be sure to create a calorie deficit if you wish to lose weight. To further complicate things - we all are different metabolically - so what may create a calorie defiicit (in terms of number of calories consumed) for one, may not create one for someone else A lot of it is trial and error.

And, I do agree, to be healthy you need to watch both what you eat (quality), how many calories you consume (quantity) and get plenty of regular exercise.

Donna

> I think that the best approach is to watch what you eat AND exercise, not do> 80% diet and 20% of exercise. I found some studies say that diet is more> important and other studies say exercise

is more important.

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kelly,

you look great!! your body is amazing!! don't worry about your belly (i am the

mother of 4)--it is only one part of you:)

stacey

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kelly,

you look great!! your body is amazing!! don't worry about your belly (i am the

mother of 4)--it is only one part of you:)

stacey

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>

> Oh, my heart is just pouring out to you underfat people! I will gladly donate

some of mine if you need any! I'm really generous that way.

>

oh you're to funny!!! I'll pass.

> : you look fantastic, and you know what, a little loose skin and stretch

marks are normal for someone who's had kids and lost a lot of weight. YOU ARE

BEAUTIFUL! Plastic surgery is there if you really want to splurge and such, but

I kind of like that you have the stretch marks because it makes you human, many

women such as myself can relate, and it's very inspiring! I can look at air

brushed fitness models all the time if I wanted too; I like your photo even

better because that's what most people look like. The media really pushes upon

us this false, unrealistic sense of beauty. YOU are the real deal!

>

Well, thank you. That is very true about the air brushed models. It's just hard.

You know, I've work really hard to lose the weight but yet when I did, I just

don't look like I wanted and hoped. I've never really had the bikini body. I've

had issues with weight my whole life. Now I'm in the best shape ever and still

get sad that I can't sport a bikini. ( I wouldn't wear one in public -

especially with little itty bitty's there looking all cute and unflawed.) I am

amazed what some people do wear to the beach, though. My self esteem is better

than what it use to be but I still find myself getting very jealous when dh is

around and checking out other girls. That's one big reason the weight loss has

happened.... my jealousy!!!

Thank you for your kind words. I am the real deal. I am happy that I inspire

others also. That means a lot. Hope I didn't get anyone down... I try to stay

positive!

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" A. M. " <plantpowered@...> wrote:

>

> I'd also like to add something to the mix. When I eat nutritious foods

> in appropriate amounts, I wake up feeling better, and I'm more likely

> to have a quality workout. I feel better throughout the day, and I'm

> more likely to go for another walk, or do another activity. My system

> doesn't feel gunked up and heavy, and I sleep much, much better. I'm

> also more likely to fend off all those little colds and viruses that

> come along. Those bugs make you miss workouts. All of this means that

> I'll work out more often, and my workouts will kick butt, and I'll be

> albe to work out longer without pooping out.

>

I will second that! Knock on wood, but I didn't get sick all winter! (Except for

the new years hangover. lol. I can laugh now.)

But that is so true. I might have gotten the start of a cold, like a scratchy

throat but it would be gone the next day and that was it. I attribute it, to the

healthy eating, exercise and the right nutrition!

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I believe it makes a huge difference!

>>

>

>

> I will second that! Knock on wood, but I didn't get sick all winter! (Except

for the new years hangover. lol. I can laugh now.)

>

> But that is so true. I might have gotten the start of a cold, like a scratchy

throat but it would be gone the next day and that was it. I attribute it, to the

healthy eating, exercise and the right nutrition!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

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I just don't know why all of you insist on putting a percentage of what has to be done to lose weight. If I only exercise 3 days a week for 30 minutes AND have a calorie deficet I will not lose that much weight or any at all. If I have a calorie deficet AND exercise 30 to 60 minutes 5 or 6 days a week I will lose more weight because I'm burning more calories.

You can always exercise more (if you have the time) but you can't cut your calories down to say 1,000 a day and still lose weight. If I did that I might gain weight because my body would go into starvation mode.

I don't think you guys read all of my posts because I said that I'm doing BOTH - eating healthy (with a calorie deficet) AND exercising.

There are other reasons to exercise besides weight loss. I'm tired of some people on here getting on my case because I talk about doing cardio exercise...DUH this is an exercise site specifically a video exercise site. I mean how many times do I have to say that I'm eating healthy!

By the way, I've cut way down on my diet coke consumption!

Jen > I think that the best approach is to watch what you eat AND exercise, not do> 80% diet and 20% of exercise. I found some studies say that diet is more> important and other studies say exercise is more

important.

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Weight watchers focuses on dieting not exercising. I think that it's necessary to do both to have lasting weight loss.

JMO,

Jen

From: Stacey Brennan-Melvin <billsgirl93@...>Subject: Re: measurements Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 9:09 AM

i have found this thread very interesting! ! there are many approaches to weight loss to be sure. imo, a lot of it depends on the metabolism of the individual. the trick is to find your own formula for success. for me, a person with a slower metabolism, my diet has to be fairly strict--any extra calories will result in weight gain--even if i am exercising. because i have been in weight watchers since the fall and have lost weight i can say that the percentage given for a ratio of weight loss and exercise is probably a well researched conclusion (since they have been collecting info since the 1960's).stacey

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Actually Jen, you absolutely positively CAN lose plenty of weight if you only exercise 3 days a week, 30 minutes at a time and have a calorie deficit. I lost over 40 pounds with just dietary changes and not exercising at all. I was definitely not doing a less than 1,000 calorie diet either (I was doing the WW plan which is very well balanced and endorsed by doctors all over the place. I don't mean that to be a commercial, sorry if it sounds that way but I know someone will wonder how I did it, that's how.) I have many members who are doing the same thing I did, not exercising but still managing to lose a lot of weight. I try to convince them to add exercise in for health reasons if nothing else and sometimes am successful but much of the time, unfortunately, am not but the point is, they are losing weight, lots of it, despite the lack of regular aerobic activity. Exercise can help speed weight loss but even that effect doesn't happen immediately, as much as people want it to. It is most helpful, at least as far as weight is concerned, long-term because of the changes in your metabolism that help you to lose and later maintain weight. (Darcy or Tonya, please correct me if this assumption is incorrect.) However, it is not essential for losing weight and 3 days a week for 30 minutes is very healthy and respectable too for weight loss and general health, especially if it is consistent.

I answered this only because I felt it was important to challenge that information. You will continue to believe whatever you want and I'm not interested in arguing with you about it and will not continue to participate in this thread if that is where it ends up. I also have no interest in embarrassing you or making you feel like you are being personally attacked. I'm sorry if you feel that you are, I certainly do not intend it that way and I'm sure no one else does either, your perceptions are your own though and I'm not going to discuss those either. I'm only going to discuss facts, including the one that says you absolutely can lose weight if you eat less and exercise only 3 days a week, 30 minutes at a time or less than that too. When people complain to me that doing just that isn't working for them then almost all the time they are eating much more than they think they are (and they're not journaling so they don't really know what they're eating, so much of what so many of us do is just mindless eating) and there is not really a calorie deficit. In other cases, they are not working nearly as hard as they think they are and again, are not creating much of a calorie deficit. With a very few others they're working harder than they think and are not eating enough to fuel their bodies well enough to burn off fat. And finally, one other group I see creates a calorie deficit but eats so much junk instead of good stuff that their weight loss creeps along because their bodies are not being properly fueled (I fell into that group the last time I was losing weight). I am not suggesting you fall into any of those groups, Jen. I don't know what you're doing and I'm not asking either. I'm just telling other people who are interested, what my experiences helping people lose weight have been. I'm not a guru who knows everything, I'm still learning as I go along but these are the patterns I'm seeing and I'm still exploring how to help people address them and change them. Exercise is wonderful for all kinds of reasons, including helping weight loss, but it gets a lot more press when it comes to weight loss than what I think the harder and more valuable work is (for that purpose), which is changing lifelong relationships with food (and that's a whole different discussion topic which I'm not trying to start).

Re: Re: measurements

I just don't know why all of you insist on putting a percentage of what has to be done to lose weight. If I only exercise 3 days a week for 30 minutes AND have a calorie deficet I will not lose that much weight or any at all. If I have a calorie deficet AND exercise 30 to 60 minutes 5 or 6 days a week I will lose more weight because I'm burning more calories.

You can always exercise more (if you have the time) but you can't cut your calories down to say 1,000 a day and still lose weight. If I did that I might gain weight because my body would go into starvation mode.

I don't think you guys read all of my posts because I said that I'm doing BOTH - eating healthy (with a calorie deficet) AND exercising.

There are other reasons to exercise besides weight loss. I'm tired of some people on here getting on my case because I talk about doing cardio exercise...DUH this is an exercise site specifically a video exercise site. I mean how many times do I have to say that I'm eating healthy!

By the way, I've cut way down on my diet coke consumption!

Jen > I think that the best approach is to watch what you eat AND exercise, not do> 80% diet and 20% of exercise. I found some studies say that diet is more> important and other studies say exercise is more important.

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This is TOTALLY incorrect! I am a Weight Watchers leader and we focus on both!!!! In the past, there was much more emphasis on dietary changes without much on exercise but in the last 5 years or so that has changed tremendously!! Every few weeks the discussion topics from our corporate office are about exercise and ways to make it enjoyable and a lifelong habit. One of good health guidelines we teach every new member is to get at least 30 minutes of activity in on most days. And actually, WW does not even focus on "dieting." We focus on replacing unhelpful habits, attitudes and relationships with food and exercise with healthy ones that will help people to not only lose weight but transform their whole way of thinking about food and exercise so that they can keep the weight off for a lifetime. It is not a diet plan, it is a lifestyle plan. Next time, please check your facts before posting.

Re: measurements Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 9:09 AM

i have found this thread very interesting! ! there are many approaches to weight loss to be sure. imo, a lot of it depends on the metabolism of the individual. the trick is to find your own formula for success. for me, a person with a slower metabolism, my diet has to be fairly strict--any extra calories will result in weight gain--even if i am exercising. because i have been in weight watchers since the fall and have lost weight i can say that the percentage given for a ratio of weight loss and exercise is probably a well researched conclusion (since they have been collecting info since the 1960's).stacey

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One way to check your facts that I should have mentioned is to go to www.weightwatchers.com (or, in Canada, www.weightwatchers.ca). I'm pretty sure non-members can see some of the articles in the science center and fitness areas too.

I can't count how many times members have told me their doctors either suggested WW or said they were really glad the person chose WW because it is such a healthy program in terms of dietary issues as well as exercise, lifestyle and emotional factors too. That isn't because it is a "diet" program either. Check it out for yourself sometime, that's another great way to check your facts. You can find a meeting on the website and you can attend your first one free to see what it is really about. I think there is a free trial promotional offer to be an online only member for a month or so right now too if meetings aren't your thing.

(who is shutting off the computer and going to bed much too late but I could NOT let that go)

Re: measurements Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 9:09 AM

i have found this thread very interesting! ! there are many approaches to weight loss to be sure. imo, a lot of it depends on the metabolism of the individual. the trick is to find your own formula for success. for me, a person with a slower metabolism, my diet has to be fairly strict--any extra calories will result in weight gain--even if i am exercising. because i have been in weight watchers since the fall and have lost weight i can say that the percentage given for a ratio of weight loss and exercise is probably a well researched conclusion (since they have been collecting info since the 1960's).stacey

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