Re: civility

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

Re: CIVILITY

> >>>>a show where the wife was an doofus who couldn't

> do anything right and the husband constantly yelled at her and

> called her an idiot would be an considered an outrage.

>

> ---->actually i think it was one of the most successful shows of

all time,

> it was called " all in the family " ...perhaps before your time.

---------A little before my time, but I HAVE seen it... and you've got

a point, Suze! Although instead of being portrayed as the mature

intelligent " superior " one, Ed Asner's character was a blowhard

and a bigoted jerk. Another I thought of was I Love Lucy. Ricky

was alway exasperated with her antics and yelling at her.

However, a show that did this now would most likely be

considered extremely offensive and wouldn't be aired.

November 3, 2003

--- In , " Suze Fisher "

>

> how's about someone grows some hydroponic bat heads so ozzie

> osborne can have at it without actually hurting an animal? <hehe>

See, now that's what I'm talking about! We're going to

have you assimilated yet! Just let your mind run wild,

the possibilities are endless. How about disposable

hydroponic husbands and boyfriends? You gotta be able

to see some possibilities in that. ;-D

November 3, 2003

>

> I'm not prejudiced - I hate everybody equally!

> I say bash the hell out of both genders, every

> race, and all political points of view. The

> more the merrier!

Actually I forgot to include " all sexualities " -

gets on my nerves every bit as

much as he does those of your average hetero male!

November 3, 2003

--- In , " wtsdv " <liberty@p...>

wrote:

>I'm not prejudiced - I hate everybody equally!

> I say bash the hell out of both genders, every

> race, and all political points of view. The

> more the merrier!

---------LOL! I have to mostly agree with you (except the hating

everybody part:-)). I believe sensitivity and appropriateness

should be considerations, but also that we all need to laugh at

ourselves, and if one group is fair game, so should we all be!

November 3, 2003

>>>>See, now that's what I'm talking about! We're going to

have you assimilated yet!

---->what, are you a ventriliquest and brandon is your dummy? LOL because i

recall *him* using the word " assimilation " .

>>>>>Just let your mind run wild,

the possibilities are endless. How about disposable

hydroponic husbands and boyfriends? You gotta be able

to see some possibilities in that. ;-D

----->LOL! not for *me* thanks, but i'm quite sure there'd be lots of

takers!

how about disposable hydroponic mothers-in-law? LOL now isn't that sexist?

<WEG>

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

November 3, 2003

In a message dated 11/2/03 11:14:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ----->i know i shouldn't even bother, but this IS obviously

> tongue-in-cheek,

> right?

huh? no, i'm serious. i love grrrrrrrrrrrls with power wearing hot skimpy

clothes.

> >>>but decided against it because I was afraid of getting some feminist

> rant

> about considering identification with the female to be derogatory.

>

> ---->hmmm...so wonder how that differs from a intelligent, reasoned feminist

> argument about considering identification with the female to be

> derogatory

pretty much the same thing.

....oh right...a woman's well reasoned argument is automatically a

> rant if it challenges the patriarchical view. ho hum. i guess i should just

> be quiet and let y'all men handle the well-reasoned intelligent arguments

> while we wimen just rant ...all crazed out by our out of control hormones.

> ;-)

that's a good idea. ;-)

> ----->actually, i think you might consider stopping while you still have

> any

> points left at all. LOL!

hmm, should I have said you're a much (admirably) stronger woman than ?

(confused...)

Chris

_________

>---->actually i think it was one of the most successful shows of all time,

>it was called " all in the family " ...perhaps before your time.

Before my time? No way! That's one of the best shows of all time!

That show however a) is not an example of current stereotypes but OLD ones

and is clearly mockingly critical of Archie, as well as the role of his wife,

which I can see so clearly present in my grandparent's generation, so I

suppose has some " feminist " elements if you will.

Chris

_______

November 3, 2003

In a message dated 11/2/2003 11:17:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ---->hmmm...so wonder how that differs from a intelligent, reasoned feminist

> argument about considering identification with the female

> to be

> derogatory

By the way, while your rant was by no means unintelligent, it just happened to

be the wrong one. Since my initial post had nothing whatsoever to do with PMS

or the way male conceptions of PMS are used to denigrate or subjigate women but

rather had the key components of

a) making fun of Canadians

call a woman

and since

a) making fun of Canadians

is without doubt both socially acceptable and ethically impeccable leaving the

primary object vulnerable to intellgient rants being

calling a woman

than the appropriate intelligent rant would be about the suffering both men and

women who deviate from gender roles go through, and the poor ethics of

denigrating such deviation, especially since men who deviate from gender roles

suffer significantly greater hardship than women who have PMS.

That said, either rant can properly be termed a " rant " regardless of its

intelligence due to its tangential characteristics and its soapbox manner of

style.

Chris

November 3, 2003

With much of its dairyland in Quebec, and Quebec being still heavy in

French culture, why not stand beside Louis Pasteur's pasteurization, a

Frenchman? Anyone know if France is the same? Raw, aged cheeses AFAIK are

ok to be produced in both countries and are imported here.

Wanita

>Canada is much more tyrranical than even the US about raw milk, hence 's

>lack of access (by implication hence his " sensitivity " :-) ). According to

>Ron Shmid, if you even *give* someone raw milk for free in Canada you can

go to

>jail for a considerable amount of time and get fined something numbering the

>millions but I forget how much. Two of the people in our raw milk drive are

>former Canadians and have verified the rumors of raw milk tyranny across

the bor

>der.

>

>Chris

November 3, 2003

> I'm not prejudiced - I hate everybody equally!

At least it opens the door to humour. A dufus is a dufus doesn't matter if

it's a dingbat housewife or a loafy plumber or an airhead newage girl or

the obligatory weird gay guy, you just gotta laugh.

November 3, 2003

Wanita Sears wrote -- <<Anyone know if France is the same? Raw, aged cheeses

AFAIK are ok to be produced in both countries and are imported here.>>

Wanita,

during our August visit to south-west France it seemed raw cheeses were

available everywhere and not just aged ones... however, only managed to find raw

butter at a Sunday farmers market... the interesting thing was that there was

very little variety of fresh milk in shops and supermarkets... seems like the

adults only drink milk in coffee and children with breakfast cereal... there was

more UHT milk incl. organic available than regular fresh milk... even more

popular [judging by range on offer] were various yoghurts and dairy based

desserts... maybe it's to do with the area we've visited... very rural and

remote... fresh milk won't last long but all those other dairy products would.

Dedy

November 3, 2003

Well some clarifications are in order I guess.

I've made numerous serious comments in this thread and apparently my mixing

them in indiscriminately with absurd statements, what was intended to be humor,

and nonsense I've caused some confusion.

If anyone was wondering:

I absolutely think Charlie's Angels are hot. No, I don't think this makes me

a feminist. The absurdity should be apparent.

My comment on PMS to was exactly what I seriously think: some women

have problems with extreme mood swings and they have a responsibility to try to

avoid taking this out on other people and other peopel have a responsibility

to be accomodating.

I do not believe is a woman.

I do not disrespect Canadians.

My statements about All in the Family and Home Improvement were serious.

I do not like making anyone angry, and the comment about feminists being cute

when they're angry was intended for irony's sake alone, the wit being

dichotomy between the empowerment of feminism and the belittling of the

description

" cute, " amalgamated into a paradox.

I'll be happy to continue the discussion in private or on the nt-politics

list with Suze or anyone else... I guess the serious things that can be

discussed

are gender and culture? I'm not really sure what in this thread has

constituted a serious discussion outside of the men-being-idiots-on-tv issue.

And for the record I do not actually have a strong oppositition to

pre-marital circumcision of gay black rappers.

Chris

November 3, 2003

In a message dated 11/3/03 3:28:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,

heidis@... writes:

> How about the Simpsons? Or ? (a cartoon). For some

> reason, on TV, the men are these angry, yelling, stupid

> people. Now the feminist part of me says " what's new? "

> but I point it out to my son, who I'd really like to

> have a better self image. However, it might have to

> do with the male psyche too -- he LOVES seeing other

> guys be stupid.

I like seeing other guys be stupid too and frankly this falls right in line

with All in the Family, as Archie Bunker was the epitome of stupid and clearly

intended to be such. And that's probably one of my all-time favorite shows.

But it seems quite clear to me that there is a bias in favor of males being

doofus's, and there is CERTAINLY a common perception that testosterone is the

" stupid hormone. " Just look at how " brains " and " brawn " are so commonly

contrasted in expressions like " he has more muscles than brains " as if you

wouldn't

fall apart if you didn't, and if somehow you have to be a wimp to be smart or

you lose your brain power once you gain some muscle.

While Marge might not be the brightest bulb on the tree, it should be

immediately obvious to anyone who's seen the show more than once or even once

that

certainly is the brightest bulb on the tree, while all the male figures are

the braindead-fat-pig-doofus, the religious softy, the bully, the dork, and

the wimp with his finger up his nose. The most alpha-male sort of guy on the

show was Phil Hartman's character, but he is clearly portrayed as a superficial

person with no brains or depth whatsoever. So thus is perpetuated the

stereotype that men tend to fall somewhere in between two extremes on a spectrum

of

religious softy and fat pig, while the few select men who achieve beyond this

are the guys who look good and talk good and have no depth.

I don't watch a real lot of tv, but I do have basic familiarity with about

50-60% of the shows currently on, and I see lots of strong female characters who

have the leading roles, are successful and intelligent etc. There are lots

of roles with good men to, I'm not claiming there aren't. But the above sort

of stereotype is definitely out there, and the old stereotypes about women are

just not around anymore.

Chris

November 3, 2003

>>>>By the way, while your rant was by no means unintelligent, it just

happened to be the wrong one.

------>it wasn't even a " rant " to begin with, that's your misconception. i

intended only to add a minor point to your original post, wherein i clearly

stated i didn't think *you* meant what you said that way at all, i was

merely pointing out the PMS thing is often used that way. i had no idea

you'd turn it into a long drawn out thread, with all kinds of inaccuracies.

had i known that i wouldn't have bothered! really, beyond my original post,

this has been a massive waste of time. how about we take this offlist if you

are intent on continuing on with it?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

November 3, 2003

>Another I thought of was I Love Lucy. Ricky

>was alway exasperated with her antics and yelling at her.

>However, a show that did this now would most likely be

>considered extremely offensive and wouldn't be aired.

>

How about the Simpsons? Or ? (a cartoon). For some

reason, on TV, the men are these angry, yelling, stupid

people. Now the feminist part of me says " what's new? "

but I point it out to my son, who I'd really like to

have a better self image. However, it might have to

do with the male psyche too -- he LOVES seeing other

guys be stupid.

As for the yelling at women being offensive --

personally I guess I don't find it so, because

it's such silly yelling that it makes the yeller

look like an idiot. Marge Simpson might be a picked-on

housewife, but she also manages to hold together

the family with some rather dysfunctional

men in it (the girls are all smart and social ...)

-- Heidi

November 3, 2003

Oh. It just occurred to me that the most ambiguous statement I made in terms

of seriousness was the one about the appropriate rant. There was an element

of seriousness to that post, but I basically wrote it for the sake of playing

the philosophy game which I thought in this case was an excercise in futility

for fun.

Obviously there is no " right " or " wrong " response to a post, because someone

can bring up a tangential subject instead of making a direct response if they

so choose. That said I believe what I stated in that email, with the above

exception.

I never took the defending-myself-against-the-accusation-of-sexism stuff

seriously at all, and Suze clearly posted several times that she wasn't accusing

me of such, so if I continued to defend myself against this charge which was

over and over made clear to not be levelled against me, I was doing it for the

sake of making stupid convoluted arguments.

Chris

November 3, 2003

> how about we take this

>offlist if you

> are intent on continuing on with it?

Sure if you want, but as yet I don't think I've made a single serious

comment on this subject and I think it would quickly lose it's fun

offlist ;-)

I just think feminists are cute when they're angry.

Chris

November 3, 2003

Thanks, Dedy! Is UHT milk like the double walled soy milk rectangular

containers here? Any non soy milk here in UHT has extra processes like

ultra pasteurization or ultra homogenization for a very long keeping life.

Is there not much refrigeration where you were or maybe because of low milk

consumption UHT is better packaging?

Wanita

>during our August visit to south-west France it seemed raw cheeses were

available everywhere and not just aged ones... however, only managed to

find raw butter at a Sunday farmers market... the interesting thing was

that there was very little variety of fresh milk in shops and

supermarkets... seems like the adults only drink milk in coffee and

children with breakfast cereal... there was more UHT milk incl. organic

available than regular fresh milk... even more popular [judging by range on

offer] were various yoghurts and dairy based desserts... maybe it's to do

with the area we've visited... very rural and remote... fresh milk won't

last long but all those other dairy products would.

>

>Dedy

November 4, 2003

>>>>Well some clarifications are in order I guess.

----->you know, it would've been better imo if you just dropped it. beyond

my initial incidental mentioning that the PMS thing is sometimes used in a

sexist manner wherein i said i was sure *you* didn't mean it that way, the

entire thread has been pretty idiotic. i could care less whether you are a

raving sexist or not, the only thing that i really took issue with was that

you seemed to spend a great deal of effort trying to paint me as a humorless

angry feminist. obviously you know i'm anti-sexist (my definition of a

feminist) just as much as i'm anti-racist. do i ever get angry? sure i get

angry. sexism has had a profound negative impact on my life, it's not

something you can just brush under the table. although sometimes you just

have to ignore it because of its prevalence....you have to select your

battles carefully.

so you can call me a feminist and you can call me angry (at least

sometimes), but " humorless " ?????? THAT's where i draw the line!!! anyone who

calls me humorless is itching for a fight...meet you on jerry springer!

grrrrrrummmpphhh!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics