Re: civility

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

November 2, 2003

It's an interesting question: is PMS entirely a product of modern

society including diet, or are mild PMS symptoms normal? If you think

about humans from an evolutionary standpoint, there's not a strong

selection against having a little pain for a few days a month. It

wouldn't prevent women from bearing children and passing on their

genes. So some degree of PMS may be inavoidable, depending on the woman.

Furthermore, PMS symptoms would be rare " back in the day " anyway,

because most months of the year women would be pregnant. (Maybe this

statement isn't true for all traditional societies, but I think it is

for most.)

Tom

> >>>I've seen it used sometimes when it obviously didn't apply, but

I've also

> seen many, many people (mostly women, but more and more men too) insist

> there's no such thing as PMS, which is plainly absurd.

>

> ---->speaking from personal experience, i agree. i will be

interested to see

> how my health program that i started about a month ago affects my

own PMS

> symptoms (mostly cramps) - they should decrease and eventually

completely

> disappear if i am successful in getting close to my optimal health.

November 2, 2003

>>>>>It's an interesting question: is PMS entirely a product of modern

society including diet, or are mild PMS symptoms normal? If you think

about humans from an evolutionary standpoint, there's not a strong

selection against having a little pain for a few days a month. It

wouldn't prevent women from bearing children and passing on their

genes. So some degree of PMS may be inavoidable, depending on the woman.

---->that may well be true, but i tend to doubt it's " normal. " i know my ND

(who wrote " traditional foods are your best medicine " based on price's work)

says it's not normal for healthy women. i'm assuming he's basing that on his

experience (20 years as an ND) and his research on traditional diets/health,

but am not certain.

>>>Furthermore, PMS symptoms would be rare " back in the day " anyway,

because most months of the year women would be pregnant. (Maybe this

statement isn't true for all traditional societies, but I think it is

for most.)

---->i don't know what " day " you're referring to, but it certainly wasn't

true at all for the traditional/primitive groups price studied, who spaced

their babies 3 years apart on average, i believe. they likely represent the

" norm " for humanity prior to modern times, or at least the " norm " for

healthy pre-moderns.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

----------------------------

November 2, 2003

" i don't know what " day " you're referring to, but it certainly wasn't true at

all for the traditional/primitive groups price studied, who spaced their babies

3 years apart on average, i believe. they likely represent the

" norm " for humanity prior to modern times, or at least the " norm " for healthy

pre-moderns. " (Suze Fisher)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Although there was that eskimo woman who'd had 26 children. I wonder if earlier

eskimo generations spaced their kids though. I wonder why today's so called

" third world " communities don't space and have a lot of children, eg. Indians

and many Arab countries that I can think of.

Filippa

November 2, 2003

In a message dated 11/1/03 10:29:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ----->well, i said i didn't think you meant it like that, but frankly

> whenever a man says that, i can hear a collective groan from women who've

> heard it all too often in that context (myself included).

In what context? From one man to another?

> >>>>(trying to get his tongue out of his cheek)

>

> ---->that's what you get for overexercising your mouth. LOL

Squats don't really hit the cheek muscles.

Chris

November 2, 2003

In a message dated 11/2/03 6:57:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,

paultheo2000@... writes:

> Whether or not it is physiological does not make Chris' comment any

> less of an insult. If you think about it, everything is physiological.

> Mental retardation is physiological as well, and it is insulting to

> call someone a mental retard.

,

My reply about the etiology of PMS symptoms was meant to be humorous. I'm

sure there's a name for this kind of humor, but I don't know what it is I just

use it. See my reply to really didn't answer the accusation at all

because the fundamental insult was not that I said you had PMS but that I

essentially called you a woman by implication, yet I defended my statement on

wholly

other grounds.

This provoked a sliding cascade of humor, as I then got accused of all sorts

of things regarding sexist stereotypes of WOMEN when I made the statement

towards a MAN etc.

However the most subtle piece of humor was the fact that I also made fun of

you being Canadian when I said " if you forgot to drink your raw milk this

morning. "

That said I didn't mean any insult towards you whatsoever but rather had two

purposes, one being to seriously express the comment I was making regarding

civility, and the other, to inject subtle uses of humor into my statement. The

latter piece of humor was not solely to make fun of your Canadian citizenship

but was furthermore a reference to an earlier thread about whether or not

eating NT/WAPish diet produces an increased capacity to be civil or not.

So if Passible and Sensitive Suze will forgive Certifiably Contumelious

I would appreciate the recognition that I meant no harm.

Chris

November 2, 2003

Bottle feeding (pushed by the west) is one culprit. If you don't breastfeed

you get your period back right away. Traditionally women don't menstruate

while breastfeeding. Western religion is another -- pushing that birth

control is evil. I've read there are natural means of birth control that

used to be used around the world. Patriarchy (kind of goes with religion) is

another. When women are empowered they exert more control over their own

reproduction.

elaine

>I wonder why today's so

> called " third world " communities don't space and have a lot of children, eg.

> Indians and many Arab countries that I can think of.

November 2, 2003

<<I wonder why today's so called " third world " communities don't space and have

a lot of children,>>

------ in many non-western cultures, the number of children you have is directly

related to you social status [mostly for men but also for women]... the more

children the higher the status... those societies will usually practice polygamy

for the same reason.

Dedy

November 2, 2003

Whether or not it is physiological does not make Chris' comment any

less of an insult. If you think about it, everything is physiological.

Mental retardation is physiological as well, and it is insulting to

call someone a mental retard.

-

> > Well like when you implied that he, though not necessarily

> > only he, might be suffering from P.M.S. :-D See below.

>

> >>>>That's not an attack. PMS is a at worst a physiological

problem, not a

> character trait.

>

> ---->the " oh she must have PMS " thing is also a standard sexist

remark to

> " keep women in their place " ie; out of positions of power where the

big bad

> PMS might make them irrational raving lunatics rendering them unable

to make

> logical or rational decisions. but i'm sure chris didn't mean it

that way.

> and i believe it IS a physiological problem, most likely suffered by

women

> who are not in optimal health (myself included). i'm guessing WAP's

> primitives didn't have it.

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

> http://www.westonaprice.org

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. "

--

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> <http://www.thincs.org>

> ----------------------------

November 2, 2003

Your humor must be too subtle for my feeble Canadian wit, then.

Thanks for clarifying your statements, I did see them as insulting

initially but not any longer.

Cheers,

-

> In a message dated 11/2/03 6:57:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> paultheo2000@y... writes:

>

> > Whether or not it is physiological does not make Chris' comment any

> > less of an insult. If you think about it, everything is physiological.

> > Mental retardation is physiological as well, and it is insulting to

> > call someone a mental retard.

>

> ,

>

> My reply about the etiology of PMS symptoms was meant to be

humorous. I'm

> sure there's a name for this kind of humor, but I don't know what it

is I just

> use it. See my reply to really didn't answer the accusation

at all

> because the fundamental insult was not that I said you had PMS but

that I

> essentially called you a woman by implication, yet I defended my

statement on wholly

> other grounds.

>

> This provoked a sliding cascade of humor, as I then got accused of

all sorts

> of things regarding sexist stereotypes of WOMEN when I made the

statement

> towards a MAN etc.

>

> However the most subtle piece of humor was the fact that I also made

fun of

> you being Canadian when I said " if you forgot to drink your raw milk

this

> morning. "

>

> That said I didn't mean any insult towards you whatsoever but rather

had two

> purposes, one being to seriously express the comment I was making

regarding

> civility, and the other, to inject subtle uses of humor into my

statement. The

> latter piece of humor was not solely to make fun of your Canadian

citizenship

> but was furthermore a reference to an earlier thread about whether

or not

> eating NT/WAPish diet produces an increased capacity to be civil or not.

>

> So if Passible and Sensitive Suze will forgive Certifiably

Contumelious

> I would appreciate the recognition that I meant no harm.

>

> Chris

>

November 2, 2003

In a message dated 11/2/03 9:44:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ----->oh brother...even though i was joking back at you, i figured this was

> coming because it's soooo typical that whenever a woman mentions the pms

> thing is sexist, she is automatically labeled " sensitive " whether it was in

> the context of a joke or not, and whether or not the labeler has any idea

> why she mentioned it.

LOL! Actually, I do believe the " sensitive " term was made use of previously

in this thread, and was adopted in this case for the sake of some awfully apt

alliteration.

> don't fret over it chris, i think most folks know that you were trying to

> be

> funny and not insulting. in fact, i clearly stated in my first post on the

> subject that i was sure you didn't mean it that way (as i know you were

> trying to be funny) and said that it is *also* used in a sexist manner,

> implying *you* weren't using it that way. so don't worry, i don't think

> you're going to gain a reputation as a sexist from that attempt at a

> humorous resolution to the lack of civility in a recent thread. :-)

If anyone questions my liking-grrrrrrrrrrrls-with-power credentials, I'll

have you all know that I just watched Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle last night

on DVD and furthermore I think all three of them are hot which officially

vindicates me of any aversion to powerful women.

______

> ----->well, i said i didn't think you meant it like that, but frankly

> whenever a man says that, i can hear a collective groan from women who've

> heard it all too often in that context (myself included).

>>>In what context? From one man to another?

----->in a sexist context - which you mentioned in a previous post. how

could i know what one man says to another? LOL

I'm sure men write articles about it for girl magazines. But THIS context,

is the point, was man-to-man...

_______

---->am i missing something...why would it be an insult to be called a

woman? i see that as a compliment!

LOL! Me too! (not!) I almost put in a disclaimer in fact specifically for

you but decided against it because I was afraid of getting some feminist rant

about considering identification with the female to be derogatory.

In general, I think it is a compliment for a woman to be womanly and a man to

be manly but generally insulting to reverse these roles.

Suze, you're so much more of a woman than ! (am I gaining points with

both of you now?)

Chris

November 2, 2003

>>>>So if Passible and Sensitive Suze will forgive Certifiably

Contumelious

I would appreciate the recognition that I meant no harm.

----->oh brother...even though i was joking back at you, i figured this was

coming because it's soooo typical that whenever a woman mentions the pms

thing is sexist, she is automatically labeled " sensitive " whether it was in

the context of a joke or not, and whether or not the labeler has any idea

why she mentioned it.

don't fret over it chris, i think most folks know that you were trying to be

funny and not insulting. in fact, i clearly stated in my first post on the

subject that i was sure you didn't mean it that way (as i know you were

trying to be funny) and said that it is *also* used in a sexist manner,

implying *you* weren't using it that way. so don't worry, i don't think

you're going to gain a reputation as a sexist from that attempt at a

humorous resolution to the lack of civility in a recent thread. :-)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

November 2, 2003

> ----->well, i said i didn't think you meant it like that, but frankly

> whenever a man says that, i can hear a collective groan from women who've

> heard it all too often in that context (myself included).

>>>In what context? From one man to another?

----->in a sexist context - which you mentioned in a previous post. how

could i know what one man says to another? LOL

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

November 2, 2003

>>>>See my reply to really didn't answer the accusation at all

because the fundamental insult was not that I said you had PMS but that I

essentially called you a woman by implication

---->am i missing something...why would it be an insult to be called a

woman? i see that as a compliment!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

----------------------------

November 2, 2003

In a message dated 11/2/03 2:42:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,

bberg@... writes:

> I'm all for making fun of Canadians, ey?

Hell we should have annexed them the first time. Ey?

>

> ...But it's still a bit too subtle for me.

Canada is much more tyrranical than even the US about raw milk, hence 's

lack of access (by implication hence his " sensitivity " :-) ). According to

Ron Shmid, if you even *give* someone raw milk for free in Canada you can go to

jail for a considerable amount of time and get fined something numbering the

millions but I forget how much. Two of the people in our raw milk drive are

former Canadians and have verified the rumors of raw milk tyranny across the bor

der.

Chris

________

wrote:

>--------- I believe you aren't put off by powerful women, but

>all watching Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle proves is that you

>have a high tolerance for pain! (And like hot girls in skimpy

>outfits)

Well I mostly watched it for the hot girls in skimpy outfits, and to a lesser

degree because I remembered the first one being really funny. But they are

some powerful women! Can kick my ass no doubt.

>---------as a highly sensitive woman, I have been annoyed and

>insulted in the past by men using being a woman as an insult

>(esp. the P word and the C word!).

Do those words refer to women or parts of them?

> It really depends on how it is

>done, though, and you are absolutely right that for a man, it's a

>desirable thing to be manly-- and as a woman, I wouldn't want to

>be called a man! (not that there's anything wrong with being a

>man, however:-)). I thought your original post was funny, actually.

Thanks :-)

>I have come to believe that we as women tend to be over

>sensitive to slights, while feeling that insulting men is fair game!

Oh really? Now that's one I hadn't thought of! (haha)

>Many things that women say about men, if a man said a similar

>thing about a women, he would be lambasted! Has anyone else

>been appalled while watching Everybody Loves ? I

>think Debra verbally abuses Ray (calling him an idiot for

>example)... a show where the wife was an doofus who couldn't

>do anything right and the husband constantly yelled at her and

>called her an idiot would be an considered an outrage.

I don't know if I've seen the show, but I've gotten the impression in the

past. I can think of Home Improvement as an example, where Tim is the

stereotypical grunting brain-dead tool-wielding car-drooling doofus and Jill is

the

intellectual mature, etc.

> So while men should stop using

>PMS as a weapon against women, we as women need to

>recognize that some of us actually do have serious problems.

If men use PMS as a weapon against women somehow they shouldn't, but some

women definitely have mood problems from PMS, and it's the woman's

responsibility

to do her best not take this out on other people, and it's the people around

her's responsibility to do their best to be accomodating.

Chris

November 2, 2003

Suze: good points, both of them. I admit that I don't know much about

the reproduction habits of traditional societies. I think I read it

somewhere, but it seems more logical that traditional societies would

space out babies.

Tom

> >>>>>It's an interesting question: is PMS entirely a product of modern

> society including diet, or are mild PMS symptoms normal? If you think

> about humans from an evolutionary standpoint, there's not a strong

> selection against having a little pain for a few days a month. It

> wouldn't prevent women from bearing children and passing on their

> genes. So some degree of PMS may be inavoidable, depending on the woman.

>

> ---->that may well be true, but i tend to doubt it's " normal. " i

know my ND

> (who wrote " traditional foods are your best medicine " based on

price's work)

> says it's not normal for healthy women. i'm assuming he's basing

that on his

> experience (20 years as an ND) and his research on traditional

diets/health,

> but am not certain.

>

> >>>Furthermore, PMS symptoms would be rare " back in the day " anyway,

> because most months of the year women would be pregnant. (Maybe this

> statement isn't true for all traditional societies, but I think it is

> for most.)

>

> ---->i don't know what " day " you're referring to, but it certainly

wasn't

> true at all for the traditional/primitive groups price studied, who

spaced

> their babies 3 years apart on average, i believe. they likely

represent the

> " norm " for humanity prior to modern times, or at least the " norm " for

> healthy pre-moderns.

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

> http://www.westonaprice.org

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. "

--

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> <http://www.thincs.org>

> ----------------------------

November 2, 2003

----- Original Message -----

From: <ChrisMasterjohn@...>

> > ---->that's what you get for overexercising your mouth. LOL

>

> Squats don't really hit the cheek muscles.

Maybe you just need to grunt louder. Or get a lift partner so you can

shout " It's all you! " while doing a 300-pound row/bench cooperative

lift.

November 2, 2003

----- Original Message -----

From: <ChrisMasterjohn@...>

> However the most subtle piece of humor was the fact that I also made

fun of

> you being Canadian when I said " if you forgot to drink your raw milk

this

> morning. "

I'm all for making fun of Canadians, ey?

....But it's still a bit too subtle for me.

November 2, 2003

RE: Re: CIVILITY

> >>>>So if Passible and Sensitive Suze will forgive Certifiably

> Contumelious

> I would appreciate the recognition that I meant no harm.

>

> ----->oh brother...even though i was joking back at you, i figured

this was

> coming because it's soooo typical that whenever a woman mentions the

pms

> thing is sexist, she is automatically labeled " sensitive " whether it

was in

> the context of a joke or not, and whether or not the labeler has any

idea

> why she mentioned it.

Don't worry--I'm sure you'll feel better in a couple of days!

November 2, 2003

> If anyone questions my liking-grrrrrrrrrrrls-with-power

credentials, I'll

> have you all know that I just watched Charlie's Angels: Full

Throttle last night

> on DVD and furthermore I think all three of them are hot which

officially

> vindicates me of any aversion to powerful women.

--------- I believe you aren't put off by powerful women, but

all watching Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle proves is that you

have a high tolerance for pain! (And like hot girls in skimpy

outfits)

I almost put in a disclaimer in fact specifically for

> you but decided against it because I was afraid of getting

some feminist rant

> about considering identification with the female to be

derogatory.

>

> In general, I think it is a compliment for a woman to be

womanly and a man to

> be manly but generally insulting to reverse these roles.

---------as a highly sensitive woman, I have been annoyed and

insulted in the past by men using being a woman as an insult

(esp. the P word and the C word!). It really depends on how it is

done, though, and you are absolutely right that for a man, it's a

desirable thing to be manly-- and as a woman, I wouldn't want to

be called a man! (not that there's anything wrong with being a

man, however:-)). I thought your original post was funny, actually.

I have come to believe that we as women tend to be over

sensitive to slights, while feeling that insulting men is fair game!

Many things that women say about men, if a man said a similar

thing about a women, he would be lambasted! Has anyone else

been appalled while watching Everybody Loves ? I

think Debra verbally abuses Ray (calling him an idiot for

example)... a show where the wife was an doofus who couldn't

do anything right and the husband constantly yelled at her and

called her an idiot would be an considered an outrage.

Ladies, while our feminist defensiveness is certainly

understandable considering history, maybe it's time we

examined ourselves a little more closely...

And about the PMS thing, I've always hated it when I was in a bad

mood and a man (usually my Dad) would say " what do you have

your period or something?) And often times when guys say this

its because they're annoyed you're in a bad mood and are trying

to get back at you passive-aggressively, so no wonder we get so

upset!

However... I had a mom who was CRAZY when she had PMS.

Once my sister had a friend stop by unexpectedly, and my

mother wouldn't let her come in the house (or even open the

door) because she thought it wasn't clean enough. She

screamed at my sister, and made her go tell her friend she had

to leave... This same sister now has terrible PMS problems, as

well (I'm lucky that all I get is a little weepy and some cramps).

Her husband is terrified of her. So while men should stop using

PMS as a weapon against women, we as women need to

recognize that some of us actually do have serious problems.

IMHO,

November 3, 2003

> don't fret over it chris, i think most folks know that you were trying to

> be

> funny and not insulting. in fact, i clearly stated in my first post on the

> subject that i was sure you didn't mean it that way (as i know you were

> trying to be funny) and said that it is *also* used in a sexist manner,

> implying *you* weren't using it that way. so don't worry, i don't think

> you're going to gain a reputation as a sexist from that attempt at a

> humorous resolution to the lack of civility in a recent thread. :-)

>>>>>If anyone questions my liking-grrrrrrrrrrrls-with-power credentials,

I'll

have you all know that I just watched Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle last

night

on DVD and furthermore I think all three of them are hot which officially

vindicates me of any aversion to powerful women.

----->i know i shouldn't even bother, but this IS obviously tongue-in-cheek,

right?

---->am i missing something...why would it be an insult to be called a

woman? i see that as a compliment!

>>>>>LOL! Me too! (not!) I almost put in a disclaimer in fact specifically

for

you

---->ah, my vocalness is paying off....

>>>but decided against it because I was afraid of getting some feminist rant

about considering identification with the female to be derogatory.

---->hmmm...so wonder how that differs from a intelligent, reasoned feminist

argument about considering identification with the female to be

derogatory...oh right...a woman's well reasoned argument is automatically a

rant if it challenges the patriarchical view. ho hum. i guess i should just

be quiet and let y'all men handle the well-reasoned intelligent arguments

while we wimen just rant ...all crazed out by our out of control hormones.

;-)

but seriously, i expected to take heat from making that comment about PMS

(comes with the territory of exercising my vocal chords), although i clearly

stated i didn't think you meant it that way. but what the hell? sometimes

some things need to be said, and i've got a big enough mouth to say it, even

though i'm well aware i'm not the only one who *thinks* it.

>>>>>Suze, you're so much more of a woman than ! (am I gaining points

with

both of you now?)

----->actually, i think you might consider stopping while you still have any

points left at all. LOL!

*charlie's angels*??....hehehe...

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

November 3, 2003

>>>>a show where the wife was an doofus who couldn't

do anything right and the husband constantly yelled at her and

called her an idiot would be an considered an outrage.

---->actually i think it was one of the most successful shows of all time,

it was called " all in the family " ...perhaps before your time.

(substitute " dingbat " for " idiot " )

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics