Re: Report Backs Infant Vaccinations

February 22, 2002

Because first of at they are my parents and siblings

and I am free to make that statement. Second of all my

brother is the most spoiled brat I know. He gets

whatever he wants, when he wants. He plays video games

all day at least eight hours and no I'm not kidding. I

has there for the holidays. He in 11 years old and has

the school ability of a 2nd grader. She dpoesn't push

him because he doesn't like school, so therefore he

feels he shouldn't have to do it. So he doesn't, and

she doesn't make him. How is that going to help him in

the future? Social they have had no experience with

anyone outside our family. No friends but cousins. My

sister does not know how to relate with others nor

does my brother and how is that going to help them? It

won't.

Second of all I've seen the difference between someone

doing a good job homeschooling and one that does not a

good job. My aunt does it a great way. She has the

morning as school time. And then the rest of the day

is the kids' to do with what they would like. Provide

that their chores are done. Just like any other school

on field trip day there is no school work, or maybe to

do something about what they like they best or why

they should go again. That is preparing my couusins

for the future to be able to structure yourself and be

disciplined. Plus its getting you outside exposure to

the " real " world and its rules.

Yes children will find anything that they find to

tease a child, but at least if people are going to

homeschool, do it in away that they chidlren feel they

are just as smart a child that goes to public/private

school. There will always be competion between

children why not also give them the grounds to equally

compete with public/private schooled chidlren?

--- saraavi ranch <claudiaayaz@...> wrote:

> that is rather judgmental, carlena. how do you know

> your step mom is doing the children a 'diservice' as

> you put it? because you don't agree with the way

> they

> are taught, or even 'unschooled'? being teased or

> not

> has nothing to do with homeschooling. if they

> weren't

> homeschooled, they'd get teased at school for

> something else. the children must gain

> self-confidence, only that will stop them being

> teased

> or worse, bullied.

> jmo

> :-)

> claudia

>

> --- carlena seepgaither <summershart@...>

> wrote:

> > That's true. For us homeschooling is not an

> option.

> > I

> > am a sigle parent and around here. Either you go

> > public, private otr you teach your own child. I

> > have

> > to work. Plus I am not discplinied enough to do

> it.

> > I

> > have had freinds who are homeschool, didn't like

> how

> > they were teased. Just horrible from the

> > nieghborhood

> > kids. Plus my step mom does it with my brother and

> > sister and she is doing them a diservice at the

> way

> > she is going about teaching them. Not consistent

> or

> > anything. Some do a really good job homeschooling

> > and

> > others do not.

> > --- in IL <tgdamron@...> wrote:

> > > sick when they first start going to school

> > >

> > > just because a child doesn't go to daycare

> doesn'

> > > tmean that htey are

> > > isolated. Also, something to think about. MANY

> > > parents that do not

> > > vaccinate choose to homeschool for educational

> > > purposes as well as for not

> > > having to deal with the govt in which they live

> > > telling them that their kids

> > > can't go to school without them (which isn't the

> > > case).

> > >

> > > My niece takes Evan to the office that I used to

> > > work at, and when she

> > > reminds them every time (which she shouldn't

> have

> > to

> > > do) that Evan will

> > > remain unvax'd, they give her a hard time, and

> > never

> > > even listen to what she

> > > has to say. I worked for these people, I know

> > that

> > > they don't go scoping

> > > for what is " different " in their world. I think

> > > it's awesome that your docs

> > > are willing to look in other directions that you

> > > send them, and accept tha

> > > tyou don't follow only mainstream medicine.

> This

> > is

> > > not the case for most

> > > conventional doctors. Again, My oldest son has

> > had

> > > so many physician

> > > changes (because his dad's insurance has changed

> > > every year since he was 2)

> > > I can safely say MOST docs will not go out of

> > their

> > > way to find out about

> > > vaccines. Partly because knowledge makes them

> > > liable.

> > >

> > > When I first started investigating this, both of

> > my

> > > sons were fully vax'd

> > > through the 5 year vax. I had a really hard

> time

> > > thumbing through the scare

> > > tactics to the information. I think Sheri's

> > > information on her site, is

> > > about as straightforward as I've found without

> > > simply trying to scare a

> > > parent to death.

> > >

> > > best wishes in your search.

> > >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

February 22, 2002

in IL <tgdamron@...> wrote:

not all doctors are evil ........

Just mostly shortsighted, stupid, arrogant, brainwashed and generally a blot on

the landscape!!!!!

Joanna

use of is subject to the Terms of Service.

---------------------------------

February 22, 2002

There's a lot of information out there linking a basically indoor lifestyle to

poorer health. And the information about daycare being linked to an increase in

health problems in children is so well documented it doesn't even really need to

be elaborated on!!!

I've never sent my kids to daycare, and so help me I never will... the best

daycare in the world doesn't compare with being at home with a loving parent, or

close family member. I understand that's not an option for some people, however,

it doesn't negate the fact that daycare is not an ideal environment. Note I did

not say 'bad', it is simply not ideal. Yea, yea, yea... there are abusive

homes.... but daycare sure doesn't negate that. I'm sure there are kids stuck in

daycare all day who then go home to an abusive home.

Truth sucks sometimes!!

I have lived in apartments... and man... that is one thing I hope to never have

to go back to after having been in my own home. There are a lot of really nice

apartments though, with park areas and nice community yards, etc. so obviously

it's not impossible to spend a lot of time outdoors if you live in an

apartment... but it's important that kids get out and run, and play, and have

the ability to do so in a clean environment. Dense urban areas <where apartments

are generally located> isn't necessarily 'clean and fresh', ya know?? It's also

hard to do things like garden in an apartment complex... and I think all those

sort of things... gardening, working/playing outdoors, getting 'back to nature'

so to speak are very important for overall good health. We didn't evolve as

sedentary indoor creatures... yet that's how most of us live!

With all the information coming out about links between environmental toxins,

and poor health, I think it's really important that we are all VERY well aware

of how where we live effects our health. When we moved out of the city 2 years

ago, we ALL went through a major detox. We got sick as our systems flushed the

crud out, and then we've all been so much healthier ever since. It was amazing!!

I know living in the country has it's own set of environmental toxins... it's

hard to escape them in our day and age, but the 'pollution' out here is nothing

compared to living in what was a relatively clean city.

Just stuff to think about...

Liz

----- Original Message -----

From: carlena seepgaither

I think it's the lifestyle that a child is exposed to,

the nuturing that a parent or caregiver takes with

each child, and the genes that play a factor into what

a child will come down too.

So don't be so fast to ,make hasty judgments about a

lifestyle that you don't live in.

Carlena

February 22, 2002

Breastfeeding has an awful lot to do with it. If you doubt it, look at the

information available. Even with the little that is really known about

breastfeeding and it's benefits (it's not exactly a high dollar area of study),

the information is amazing and dramatic.

Sure a lot of other things play into whether kids get sick or not... a kid in

daycare is generally going to be sick a heck of a lot more than a kid who is

not.

Odin would pick up a cold/minor bug generally a week or two after going to the

doctors. I never put two and two together until I was looking back through a

calendar I kept of his first year. I was so anal... I wrote down minor things

like " He had the sniffles today " . The more I looked, the more I realized most of

those minor things came after a visit to the doctor.

They had a separate waiting area too. But come on... you take a kid into a place

where there is a concentration of sick kids and what do you expect to happen?

It's not a matter of thinking doctors are evil, it's a matter of realizing that

their method of treatment, on the whole, is counterproductive to health.

Look at 'well baby' visits. Why does a well child need to visit a doctor? It

used to be doctors were seen when a person was sick. Now we see doctors just for

the heck of it when kids are well too?? And for what? So they can weight them,

chart them, inject them with vaccines and on the whole do very little that

promotes real wellness. Great. This is supposed to promote good feelings towards

doctors? We spent more time in waiting rooms than with the doctor. Like they are

going to catch something that I, as a mother, who spends every day with my kids

is going to miss.

I also don't adhere to the western way of treatment. Pumping kids full of

prescription meds, antibiotics, etc. just doesn't sit well with me. Why take a

child to a doctor when you know you're not going to agree with the course of

treatment??

So, I save myself the frustration and don't go. If one of my kids breaks an arm,

THEN we will go to a traditional doctor since I know I can't set the break, and

their method of healing will do what needs to be done. If my kids have a fever,

a cold, etc. I would rather handle that myself. When my son had whooping cough,

we took him to a Naturopath who was totally cool. I guess it's all a matter of

perspective!

Liz

Re: Report Backs Infant Vaccinations

WE do the baby well visits and the kids have never

gotten sick from going in there. They have a different

opening to the clinic for the well chidlren and the

sick children. The peds doc is there for the morning

and then he/she takes care of the rest of the children

(sick ones) in the afternoon. But I don't think

Breastfeeding has anything to do with it, I think it

helps to prevent sickness but not competely. Both of

my kids were breastfed till they were one and SHelby

got sick more times then I can count and Mason did

not. But when their 1st birthday came and went. They

now have been sick 2 times maybe three( maybe one of

those times is bad enough to go in) and the rest of

the year they are fine. Only go in for baby well

visits.

You know not all doctors are evil...why does it seem

like you guys are acting that everyone of them is

evil?

Carlena

February 22, 2002

No its not that. At all its been checked out. Its just

plain old negelct from my stepmother for not making

him do school work and stumlate his brain and

creativity outside video games.

--- Hjfasufi@... wrote:

> Carlena:

>

> What you are explaining about your nephew and his

> family could be something

> related to the Autistic spectrum. My 15 yr. old son

> has Asperger's Syndrome.

> He is not social at all, and he would be more than

> happy to play video games

> for 8 hours. That doesn't mean I let him.

>

> I know a lot about Autistic Spectrum Disorders, and

> there is a prevalence of

> it running in families. They really can't help it!

>

> Maybe, you should consider this, before you put the

> whole family off as being

> irresponsible.

>

> Regards,

>

__________________________________________________

February 22, 2002

No, they are good doctors and they are bad doctors.

Just like there are good teachers and bad teachers,

good parents and bad parents. Its are job to find them

out. My best friend's husband is going to be a doctor

and I he's not shortsighted, stupid, arrogant,

brainwashed and ect. I resent that comment. Nor are my

two kids peds doctors.

Carlena

--- joanna athome <joanna_at_home@...> wrote:

>

> in IL <tgdamron@...> wrote:

> not all doctors are evil ........

>

> Just mostly shortsighted, stupid, arrogant,

> brainwashed and generally a blot on the

> landscape!!!!!

>

> Joanna

>

> use of is subject to the Terms

> of Service.

>

> ---------------------------------

>

February 22, 2002

Whatever.... You guys have your opinions and I have

mine. My kids were breastfeed and they did not get

sick that often. And I know other kids that were

breastfed and got sick ALL the time. I think the

doctors that my kids have are great ones. They have

worked with with my daighter and seizures. If it

wasn't for them I don't know what I would have done.

ANd no before any of you say anything it wasn't do to

shots. She was involved in a serious car accident with

my mother and both suffer head trauma that resulted in

seizures.

--- " Liz A. " <sandoz@...> wrote:

> Breastfeeding has an awful lot to do with it. If you

> doubt it, look at the information available. Even

> with the little that is really known about

> breastfeeding and it's benefits (it's not exactly a

> high dollar area of study), the information is

> amazing and dramatic.

>

> Sure a lot of other things play into whether kids

> get sick or not... a kid in daycare is generally

> going to be sick a heck of a lot more than a kid who

> is not.

>

> Odin would pick up a cold/minor bug generally a week

> or two after going to the doctors. I never put two

> and two together until I was looking back through a

> calendar I kept of his first year. I was so anal...

> I wrote down minor things like " He had the sniffles

> today " . The more I looked, the more I realized most

> of those minor things came after a visit to the

> doctor.

>

> They had a separate waiting area too. But come on...

> you take a kid into a place where there is a

> concentration of sick kids and what do you expect to

> happen?

>

> It's not a matter of thinking doctors are evil, it's

> a matter of realizing that their method of

> treatment, on the whole, is counterproductive to

> health.

>

> Look at 'well baby' visits. Why does a well child

> need to visit a doctor? It used to be doctors were

> seen when a person was sick. Now we see doctors just

> for the heck of it when kids are well too?? And for

> what? So they can weight them, chart them, inject

> them with vaccines and on the whole do very little

> that promotes real wellness. Great. This is supposed

> to promote good feelings towards doctors? We spent

> more time in waiting rooms than with the doctor.

> Like they are going to catch something that I, as a

> mother, who spends every day with my kids is going

> to miss.

>

> I also don't adhere to the western way of treatment.

> Pumping kids full of prescription meds, antibiotics,

> etc. just doesn't sit well with me. Why take a child

> to a doctor when you know you're not going to agree

> with the course of treatment??

>

> So, I save myself the frustration and don't go. If

> one of my kids breaks an arm, THEN we will go to a

> traditional doctor since I know I can't set the

> break, and their method of healing will do what

> needs to be done. If my kids have a fever, a cold,

> etc. I would rather handle that myself. When my son

> had whooping cough, we took him to a Naturopath who

> was totally cool. I guess it's all a matter of

> perspective!

>

> Liz

>

> Re: Report Backs Infant

> Vaccinations

>

> WE do the baby well visits and the kids have never

> gotten sick from going in there. They have a

> different

> opening to the clinic for the well chidlren and

> the

> sick children. The peds doc is there for the

> morning

> and then he/she takes care of the rest of the

> children

> (sick ones) in the afternoon. But I don't think

> Breastfeeding has anything to do with it, I think

> it

> helps to prevent sickness but not competely. Both

> of

> my kids were breastfed till they were one and

> SHelby

> got sick more times then I can count and Mason did

> not. But when their 1st birthday came and went.

> They

> now have been sick 2 times maybe three( maybe one

> of

> those times is bad enough to go in) and the rest

> of

> the year they are fine. Only go in for baby well

> visits.

>

> You know not all doctors are evil...why does it

> seem

> like you guys are acting that everyone of them is

> evil?

>

> Carlena

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

__________________________________________________

February 22, 2002

Perhaps you shouldn't judge!!

Homeschooling doesn't have to be 'school at home' to be extremely effective.

We're all so brainwashed into thinking kids have to be taught in your typical

drill sergeant school type way. In reality, many kids learn best when allowed to

follow their own interests. Something that may appear to be haphazard and

inconsistent to the uneducated outsider, may in fact be an extremely effective

method of learning for the child.

My son will start 'kindergarten' at home this fall. We're homeschooling for so

many reasons... mainly I have no faith in public school systems ability to

provide an education that will help my son achieve success as an adult <what

ever he decides that will be>. I have *NO* intentions of setting up 'school at

home'. We're going to do modified unschooling... basically he will lead the way

and I will provide what he needs along that path.

We've never done anything structured, forced, or highly organized with my

oldest... yet he already at 4 knows more than my neighbors son who is half way

through his first year of public school kindergarten. All we've ever done is

provide a ton of resources (including myself and my husband, after all, we are

both our children's best teachers and resource... it's so important for parents

to be available to their kids) and my son has soaked up knowledge like a dry

sponge soaks up water!! It's AMAZING how much children will eagerly learn if the

conditions are right!!

It's also nice to know we won't have to deal with the vaccine issue and school!!

Texas is a pretty relaxed state, but still... by homeschooling it won't even be

an issue.

Liz

Re: Report Backs Infant Vaccinations

That's true. For us homeschooling is not an option. I

am a sigle parent and around here. Either you go

public, private otr you teach your own child. I have

to work. Plus I am not discplinied enough to do it. I

have had freinds who are homeschool, didn't like how

they were teased. Just horrible from the nieghborhood

kids. Plus my step mom does it with my brother and

sister and she is doing them a diservice at the way

she is going about teaching them. Not consistent or

anything. Some do a really good job homeschooling and

others do not.

February 22, 2002

Boy isn't that the truth... my poor husband went through such hell in public

school. Not just teasing, but to the extent of having knives pulled on him in

GRADE SCHOOL! Lovely institution public school... I never went through anything

bad in public school, I was just bored out of my mind even in honors classes.

When we lived in Nebraska, the family next door to us homeschooled. I was in

high school, and thought it would be so neat to be able to stay home all day.

They were constantly going on cool field trips, and homeschool group meetings

and such.

There are pros and cons to both side of the schooling issue, but I think a well

rounded approach to homeschooling has very few if any cons to the kids. It's

generally the parents who have the most problems with it (schedules, lifestyle

issues, etc. )

Liz

----- Original Message -----

From: saraavi ranch

being teased or not

has nothing to do with homeschooling. if they weren't

homeschooled, they'd get teased at school for

something else. the children must gain

self-confidence, only that will stop them being teased

or worse, bullied.

jmo

:-)

claudia

February 22, 2002

lol, Joanna .......... ok, I was trying to be a bit more diplomatic ......

lmao. Some days I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall with some

of my family and friends. I'm like YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH ME, JUST

READ THE FREAKING INFORMATION.

February 22, 2002

what is the formula that one is able to part the world

into good ones and bad ones? i wish i could do that,

but i haven't quite figured out how. can you help?

thanx.

claudia

--- carlena seepgaither <summershart@...> wrote:

> No, they are good doctors and they are bad doctors.

> Just like there are good teachers and bad teachers,

> good parents and bad parents. Its are job to find

> them

> out. My best friend's husband is going to be a

> doctor

> and I he's not shortsighted, stupid, arrogant,

> brainwashed and ect. I resent that comment. Nor are

> my

> two kids peds doctors.

>

> Carlena

> --- joanna athome <joanna_at_home@...> wrote:

> >

> > in IL <tgdamron@...> wrote:

> > not all doctors are evil ........

> >

> > Just mostly shortsighted, stupid, arrogant,

> > brainwashed and generally a blot on the

> > landscape!!!!!

> >

> > Joanna

> >

> > use of is subject to the

> Terms

> > of Service.

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> >

February 22, 2002

The 'real' world?? The real world is what we make it. I can tell you absolutely

nothing I learned in the 12 years I spent in public school really taught me

anything that helps me in my day to day 'real life'. No where in there was there

preparation for simple things like home budgeting (hey, I took trig and pre cal

and all that high level crap, so much for reality...) , basic household

maintenance (wish I'd taken shop instead of pre-collage electives), parenting,

etc.

I worked everything from a hip trendy job at a local health food store right out

of high school, to working directly with upper level management on a major

corporate project before having my kids. NOTHING I learned in public school

helped with any of it. College was only slightely more intellegent...

And honestly, I hope I'll never have to go back to the back-biting, closed

minded, brown nosing, short sited corporate world. I tell ya, talk about a bunch

of people stuck in the never ending high school popularity contest loop!! I feel

so bad for my poor husband who has to go right into the thick of it every day.

Ra-ra corporate America! I see no point in having to indoctrinate children into

that sort of lifestyle any earlier than necessary. It's bad enough we have to

conform to a bunch of stupid standards as adults when we can fully understand

WHY, we sure don't need to force kids to do the same when it's totally not

necessary. Self discipline doesn't come from being forced to conform, it comes

from learning the consequence of ones actions. Meaning kids and adults alike

need to be allowed the freedom to make their own choices, and then wither suffer

the consequences or reap the rewards.

I really love my current 'real' world of being a stay at home momma, a wife, and

all the various other things I do (small time horse breeder, wish I had time to

finish remodeling my 100 year old house, I love to sew, garden, cook, I raise my

own goats and will again be attempting chickens and hope the wildlife doesn't

run off with them AGAIN, I love the concept of homesteading... and where exactly

was the school course on all this??).

I think the mentality that is brainwashed into kids from the time they are

little <school age> is the same brainwashed mentality that has allowed something

as dangerous as vaccinations to become so mainstream and accepted. It's the

thought that one must conform to succeed. That mediocrity is acceptable, and to

blend in and not make waves is the ultimate form of acceptable social behavior.

I don't give a rats butt if my kid is at the same level as a child in public

school. If my oldest doesn't want to learn to read until he's 12, that's his

choice. He may however decide to become obsessed with mathematics and

concentrate on being a math wiz. Who knows! He already meets or exceeds most of

the requirements of a child in Kindergarten, even though he isn't even school

age yet (and isn't being formally schooled in any way). By this fall when he's

supposed to start 'school', I'm sure he'll already be past his comparable school

level. If not, then oh well. I doubt that if he learns to write his name a 5 or

10 it will really make a difference when he's 20. There are *SO* many things to

learn in life, what is taught in school has so little relevance to the real

world. It's pretty obvious that the current way of raising kids in the US isn't

working... but no one wants to point the finger at the 'ship the kids off to

daycare/school/latchkey and let someone else raise them' mentality that is

causing it. It's uncomfortable to blame parents for not parenting, and so the

kids suffer. That goes across the board... being present doesn't mean a parent

is actively parenting. But being absent the majority of the time sure makes it

that much harder for a person to be an active part of their kids life.

My priority with my kids education, just like their lives, isn't keeping up with

the es. I don't want them to be like the kid down the street. I don't want

them to be anyone but themselves! If that means they are undisciplined by the

rest of the worlds standards, oh well. I'd rather they be undisciplined and

happy then brow beaten into model behavior that makes them miserable for all the

days of their lives. Conformity sucks.

By most peoples standards, I'm negligent because I don't vaccinate. Yet if

you're on this list I'd hope you'd be informed enough to realize vaccination can

be horribly dangerous, far more so than most of the diseases being vaccinated

against. For the educated person, where the real risk lies is obvious... it's in

the syringe full of poison behind the needles so many parents blindly allow to

be jabbed into their kids. I know that, hopefully you know that, I'd venture to

say most people on this list know that. To bad the rest of the US doesn't....

Because we choose differently, many 'main stream' people won't understand the

choices we make. Their lack of understanding will come across in many ways...

from hostility to curiosity. The same applies to many other non-main stream

concepts like homeschooling, extended breastfeeding, attachment parenting, etc.

etc. etc. Although you may not completely understand the concepts, there are

good reasons behind all of them. None of which have anything to do with making

sure our kids are the same as mainstream kids... generally the goal is to make

sure that DOESN'T happen.

Liz

----- Original Message -----

From: carlena seepgaither

That is preparing my couusins

for the future to be able to structure yourself and be

disciplined. Plus its getting you outside exposure to

the " real " world and its rules.

Yes children will find anything that they find to

tease a child, but at least if people are going to

homeschool, do it in away that they chidlren feel they

are just as smart a child that goes to public/private

school. There will always be competion between

children why not also give them the grounds to equally

compete with public/private schooled chidlren?

February 22, 2002

daycare/school/latchkey

Excuseme!!! I am one of those kids and I turned out

fine. I'm not sure where you went to school. But in my

high freshman class they taught us about budgeting,

balanceing a checkbook. Home Ec taught us how to cook,

Sex Ed taught us how to handle babies,

chidlren....changing diapers and so etc. I too would

love to be a stay at home mom but I can have the

luxury as a single mom.

Why don't we just drop the subject and call it a draw

and say we agree to disagree.

--- " Liz A. " <sandoz@...> wrote:

> The 'real' world?? The real world is what we make

> it. I can tell you absolutely nothing I learned in

> the 12 years I spent in public school really taught

> me anything that helps me in my day to day 'real

> life'. No where in there was there preparation for

> simple things like home budgeting (hey, I took trig

> and pre cal and all that high level crap, so much

> for reality...) , basic household maintenance (wish

> I'd taken shop instead of pre-collage electives),

> parenting, etc.

>

> I worked everything from a hip trendy job at a local

> health food store right out of high school, to

> working directly with upper level management on a

> major corporate project before having my kids.

> NOTHING I learned in public school helped with any

> of it. College was only slightely more

> intellegent...

>

> And honestly, I hope I'll never have to go back to

> the back-biting, closed minded, brown nosing, short

> sited corporate world. I tell ya, talk about a bunch

> of people stuck in the never ending high school

> popularity contest loop!! I feel so bad for my poor

> husband who has to go right into the thick of it

> every day. Ra-ra corporate America! I see no point

> in having to indoctrinate children into that sort of

> lifestyle any earlier than necessary. It's bad

> enough we have to conform to a bunch of stupid

> standards as adults when we can fully understand

> WHY, we sure don't need to force kids to do the same

> when it's totally not necessary. Self discipline

> doesn't come from being forced to conform, it comes

> from learning the consequence of ones actions.

> Meaning kids and adults alike need to be allowed the

> freedom to make their own choices, and then wither

> suffer the consequences or reap the rewards.

>

> I really love my current 'real' world of being a

> stay at home momma, a wife, and all the various

> other things I do (small time horse breeder, wish I

> had time to finish remodeling my 100 year old house,

> I love to sew, garden, cook, I raise my own goats

> and will again be attempting chickens and hope the

> wildlife doesn't run off with them AGAIN, I love the

> concept of homesteading... and where exactly was the

> school course on all this??).

>

> I think the mentality that is brainwashed into kids

> from the time they are little <school age> is the

> same brainwashed mentality that has allowed

> something as dangerous as vaccinations to become so

> mainstream and accepted. It's the thought that one

> must conform to succeed. That mediocrity is

> acceptable, and to blend in and not make waves is

> the ultimate form of acceptable social behavior.

>

> I don't give a rats butt if my kid is at the same

> level as a child in public school. If my oldest

> doesn't want to learn to read until he's 12, that's

> his choice. He may however decide to become obsessed

> with mathematics and concentrate on being a math

> wiz. Who knows! He already meets or exceeds most of

> the requirements of a child in Kindergarten, even

> though he isn't even school age yet (and isn't being

> formally schooled in any way). By this fall when

> he's supposed to start 'school', I'm sure he'll

> already be past his comparable school level. If not,

> then oh well. I doubt that if he learns to write his

> name a 5 or 10 it will really make a difference when

> he's 20. There are *SO* many things to learn in

> life, what is taught in school has so little

> relevance to the real world. It's pretty obvious

> that the current way of raising kids in the US isn't

> working... but no one wants to point the finger at

> the 'ship the kids off to daycare/school/latchkey

> and let someone else raise them' mentality that is

> causing it. It's uncomfortable to blame parents for

> not parenting, and so the kids suffer. That goes

> across the board... being present doesn't mean a

> parent is actively parenting. But being absent the

> majority of the time sure makes it that much harder

> for a person to be an active part of their kids

> life.

>

> My priority with my kids education, just like their

> lives, isn't keeping up with the es. I don't

> want them to be like the kid down the street. I

> don't want them to be anyone but themselves! If that

> means they are undisciplined by the rest of the

> worlds standards, oh well. I'd rather they be

> undisciplined and happy then brow beaten into model

> behavior that makes them miserable for all the days

> of their lives. Conformity sucks.

>

> By most peoples standards, I'm negligent because I

> don't vaccinate. Yet if you're on this list I'd hope

> you'd be informed enough to realize vaccination can

> be horribly dangerous, far more so than most of the

> diseases being vaccinated against. For the educated

> person, where the real risk lies is obvious... it's

> in the syringe full of poison behind the needles so

> many parents blindly allow to be jabbed into their

> kids. I know that, hopefully you know that, I'd

> venture to say most people on this list know that.

> To bad the rest of the US doesn't....

>

> Because we choose differently, many 'main stream'

> people won't understand the choices we make. Their

> lack of understanding will come across in many

> ways... from hostility to curiosity. The same

> applies to many other non-main stream concepts like

> homeschooling, extended breastfeeding, attachment

> parenting, etc. etc. etc. Although you may not

> completely understand the concepts, there are good

> reasons behind all of them. None of which have

> anything to do with making sure our kids are the

> same as mainstream kids... generally the goal is to

> make sure that DOESN'T happen.

>

> Liz

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: carlena seepgaither

> That is preparing my couusins

> for the future to be able to structure yourself

> and be

> disciplined. Plus its getting you outside exposure

> to

> the " real " world and its rules.

>

> Yes children will find anything that they find to

> tease a child, but at least if people are going to

> homeschool, do it in away that they chidlren feel

> they

> are just as smart a child that goes to

> public/private

> school. There will always be competion between

> children why not also give them the grounds to

> equally

> compete with public/private schooled chidlren?

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

__________________________________________________

February 22, 2002

For me its the ones that are open to questions, and if

they don't know the answers they acknowledge that, go

find the answers and if I was wrong in thinking they

show me where I am wrong and vise versa. My best

friend is the best teacher I know. She takes the takes

the time to teach her kids about the basic human

skills. Washing your hands after going to the

bathroom, friendships. She loves everyone of those

chidlren like they are hers. Is they are sad she has

told me that her heart aches for them, when they

achieve something they have tried so hard to do, she

cheers them on. I have had teachers like these, and I

have had teachers that don't care about if you make it

or not. But she is one of the good ones.

--- saraavi ranch <claudiaayaz@...> wrote:

> what is the formula that one is able to part the

> world

> into good ones and bad ones? i wish i could do that,

> but i haven't quite figured out how. can you help?

> thanx.

> claudia

>

> --- carlena seepgaither <summershart@...>

> wrote:

> > No, they are good doctors and they are bad

> doctors.

> > Just like there are good teachers and bad

> teachers,

> > good parents and bad parents. Its are job to find

> > them

> > out. My best friend's husband is going to be a

> > doctor

> > and I he's not shortsighted, stupid, arrogant,

> > brainwashed and ect. I resent that comment. Nor

> are

> > my

> > two kids peds doctors.

> >

> > Carlena

> > --- joanna athome <joanna_at_home@...>

> wrote:

> > >

> > > in IL <tgdamron@...> wrote:

> > > not all doctors are evil ........

> > >

> > > Just mostly shortsighted, stupid, arrogant,

> > > brainwashed and generally a blot on the

> > > landscape!!!!!

> > >

> > > Joanna

> > >

> > > use of is subject to the

> > Terms

> > > of Service.

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > >

February 22, 2002

You're missing the point. Entirely.

My Grandfather is a doctor (retired general practitioner, prior to that he was

an aerospace doctor in the air force. He's served as a doctor literally all over

the world). I love him dearly. He is a wonderful man, and in many, many ways I

respect and admire him.

For the most part, I also completely disagree with the way he practices

medicine. He's not as bad as most current doctors, because back in his day he

had less 'stuff' to work with and was required to rely on the human body to do

it's job <and heal>.

If you think western medicine doctors are great, that's your prerogative. But do

try and understand that coming from the perspective of someone who is actually

interested in healing... as apposed to putting a patch on a problem that will

only make it worse... western medicine is a horribly counterproductive to most

health issues.

Take a cold for example... you go to your typical doctor and they will prescribe

Tylenol for fever, aches and pains. Most will even go so far as to give

antibiotics just in case of secondary infection. No where along the way will

they really consider the source of the cold. Are you run down? Does your immune

system need support. Is there an issue with another part of your body that is

contributing to or worsening the symptoms of the cold? Is it really a cold at

all, or is it an immune response to damage going on in the body... instead of

taking a *w*holistic approach to healing, and curing what is actually wrong...

western medicine doctors 'patch' and cover up the symptoms instead of actually

fixing the problem. Sure taking two Tylenol may mask the symptoms and give

relief... but did it actually cure the problem? No. And it hurt your liver to

boot.

It's a bit of a 'glass half full, glass half empty' kind of thing. Until your

perspective changes... it won't make sense!

Liz

Re: Report Backs Infant Vaccinations

No, they are good doctors and they are bad doctors.

Just like there are good teachers and bad teachers,

good parents and bad parents. Its are job to find them

out. My best friend's husband is going to be a doctor

and I he's not shortsighted, stupid, arrogant,

brainwashed and ect. I resent that comment. Nor are my

two kids peds doctors.

Carlena

February 22, 2002

oh absolutely, liz! remembering my own school days, i

was kind of 'unbullyable', cuz i never gave a damn

what anyone thought of me, so they could say what they

wanted and it went in one ear and out the other, lol.

when we realized that dd was showing signs of being,

well, kind of a wall flower, and cried everytime

someone raised his/her voice at her, we introduced her

to martial arts. first she fought going to the

classes, but then she started to enjoy tournaments and

once she became AZ state champion, nobody would dare

bully her, lol. school life is getting more difficult

by the year it seams, and together with the aim to

take over control of the kids (having parents sign

forms to allow schools to take care of medical check

ups etc), more and more parents are favoring

homeschooling. and a lot of us parents still have to

learn not to put too much value on what the neighbours

think, too. :-))

claudia

--- " Liz A. " <sandoz@...> wrote:

> Boy isn't that the truth... my poor husband went

> through such hell in public school. Not just

> teasing, but to the extent of having knives pulled

> on him in GRADE SCHOOL! Lovely institution public

> school... I never went through anything bad in

> public school, I was just bored out of my mind even

> in honors classes.

>

> When we lived in Nebraska, the family next door to

> us homeschooled. I was in high school, and thought

> it would be so neat to be able to stay home all day.

> They were constantly going on cool field trips, and

> homeschool group meetings and such.

>

> There are pros and cons to both side of the

> schooling issue, but I think a well rounded approach

> to homeschooling has very few if any cons to the

> kids. It's generally the parents who have the most

> problems with it (schedules, lifestyle issues, etc.

> )

>

> Liz

>

=====

see our new website! take part in our poll!!!

http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/wiseone/allopathic.htm and

http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/wiseone/pollpage.htm

It is only with the heart that one can see rightly;

what is essential is invisible to the eye.

-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery, The Little Prince

__________________________________________________

February 22, 2002

You haven't even read what I posted before about my

chidlren's doctors. They don't mind and encourage the

fact that I try other remedies before I bring them in.

My kid's doctors won't prescribe antibotics unless

absoluting necessary. My son's was actually reported

because he didn't give this mother one, when she asked

for it. Said the child didn't needed it. He was

teething. Gave some suggestions to do and she filed a

complaint. So no, I don't run to our 'western "

doctors for everything. Only when necessary. The last

two years, Shelby has been in once because she had a

senus infection and nothing I have tried fixed it. I

look for other ways, but I'm not afarid to go to him

for advice about things either. My best friend's

husband is studying both ways of medicine to be better

service to his patients. I think that's awesome.

So I'm sorry but my prespect is just fine.

--- " Liz A. " <sandoz@...> wrote:

> You're missing the point. Entirely.

>

> My Grandfather is a doctor (retired general

> practitioner, prior to that he was an aerospace

> doctor in the air force. He's served as a doctor

> literally all over the world). I love him dearly. He

> is a wonderful man, and in many, many ways I respect

> and admire him.

>

> For the most part, I also completely disagree with

> the way he practices medicine. He's not as bad as

> most current doctors, because back in his day he had

> less 'stuff' to work with and was required to rely

> on the human body to do it's job <and heal>.

>

> If you think western medicine doctors are great,

> that's your prerogative. But do try and understand

> that coming from the perspective of someone who is

> actually interested in healing... as apposed to

> putting a patch on a problem that will only make it

> worse... western medicine is a horribly

> counterproductive to most health issues.

>

> Take a cold for example... you go to your typical

> doctor and they will prescribe Tylenol for fever,

> aches and pains. Most will even go so far as to give

> antibiotics just in case of secondary infection. No

> where along the way will they really consider the

> source of the cold. Are you run down? Does your

> immune system need support. Is there an issue with

> another part of your body that is contributing to or

> worsening the symptoms of the cold? Is it really a

> cold at all, or is it an immune response to damage

> going on in the body... instead of taking a

> *w*holistic approach to healing, and curing what is

> actually wrong... western medicine doctors 'patch'

> and cover up the symptoms instead of actually fixing

> the problem. Sure taking two Tylenol may mask the

> symptoms and give relief... but did it actually cure

> the problem? No. And it hurt your liver to boot.

>

> It's a bit of a 'glass half full, glass half empty'

> kind of thing. Until your perspective changes... it

> won't make sense!

>

> Liz

>

> Re: Report Backs Infant

> Vaccinations

>

> No, they are good doctors and they are bad

> doctors.

> Just like there are good teachers and bad

> teachers,

> good parents and bad parents. Its are job to find

> them

> out. My best friend's husband is going to be a

> doctor

> and I he's not shortsighted, stupid, arrogant,

> brainwashed and ect. I resent that comment. Nor

> are my

> two kids peds doctors.

>

> Carlena

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

__________________________________________________

February 22, 2002

The good one are the ones you DON'T go to, the bad ones are always the ones you

end up stuck with!

I like our pediatrician. She's very nice as far as doctors go. It also helps

that we've seen her, hmm, once is about 2 years!

Liz

Re: Report Backs Infant Vaccinations

what is the formula that one is able to part the world

into good ones and bad ones? i wish i could do that,

but i haven't quite figured out how. can you help?

thanx.

claudia

February 22, 2002

That's your opinion. I know that my BF's husband will

be a great doctor.

--- " Liz A. " <sandoz@...> wrote:

> The good one are the ones you DON'T go to, the bad

> ones are always the ones you end up stuck with!

>

> I like our pediatrician. She's very nice as far as

> doctors go. It also helps that we've seen her, hmm,

> once is about 2 years!

>

> Liz

>

> Re: Report Backs Infant

> Vaccinations

>

> what is the formula that one is able to part the

> world

> into good ones and bad ones? i wish i could do

> that,

> but i haven't quite figured out how. can you help?

> thanx.

> claudia

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

__________________________________________________

February 22, 2002

--- carlena seepgaither <summershart@...> wrote:

> <snip> Then there are others like the saftey of

> ALL

> children and their health that we should unite. We

> need to unite on their education and things like

> that.

we can't unite on children's education until we find a

way to truly educate our children. i would certainly

NOT consider school education anything that remotely

reflects true education.

jmo

claudia

=====

see our new website! take part in our poll!!!

http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/wiseone/allopathic.htm and

http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/wiseone/pollpage.htm

It is only with the heart that one can see rightly;

what is essential is invisible to the eye.

-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery, The Little Prince

__________________________________________________

February 22, 2002

As far

as any of my kids getting medical exams in school

What's the point of this?

--- Hjfasufi@... wrote:

> school life is getting more difficult

> by the year it seams, and together with the aim to

> take over control of the kids (having parents sign

> forms to allow schools to take care of medical check

> ups etc), more and more parents are favoring

> homeschooling. and a lot of us parents still have to

> learn not to put too much value on what the

> neighbours

> think, too. :-))

> claudia

>

> I've always felt this way claudia! Nice to know I'm

> not the only one. As far

> as any of my kids getting medical exams in school,

> forget it!

>

> PS: I read a great post today on another list. I'm

> going to forward it.

>

__________________________________________________

February 22, 2002

wow! how cool. where do you live?

claudia

--- carlena seepgaither <summershart@...> wrote:

> For me its the ones that are open to questions, and

> if

> they don't know the answers they acknowledge that,

> go

> find the answers and if I was wrong in thinking they

> show me where I am wrong and vise versa. My best

> friend is the best teacher I know. She takes the

> takes

> the time to teach her kids about the basic human

> skills. Washing your hands after going to the

> bathroom, friendships. She loves everyone of those

> chidlren like they are hers. Is they are sad she has

> told me that her heart aches for them, when they

> achieve something they have tried so hard to do, she

> cheers them on. I have had teachers like these, and

> I

> have had teachers that don't care about if you make

> it

> or not. But she is one of the good ones.

> --- saraavi ranch <claudiaayaz@...> wrote:

> > what is the formula that one is able to part the

> > world

> > into good ones and bad ones? i wish i could do

> that,

> > but i haven't quite figured out how. can you help?

> > thanx.

> > claudia

> >

> > --- carlena seepgaither <summershart@...>

> > wrote:

> > > No, they are good doctors and they are bad

> > doctors.

> > > Just like there are good teachers and bad

> > teachers,

> > > good parents and bad parents. Its are job to

> find

> > > them

> > > out. My best friend's husband is going to be a

> > > doctor

> > > and I he's not shortsighted, stupid, arrogant,

> > > brainwashed and ect. I resent that comment. Nor

> > are

> > > my

> > > two kids peds doctors.

> > >

> > > Carlena

> > > --- joanna athome <joanna_at_home@...>

> > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > in IL <tgdamron@...> wrote:

> > > > not all doctors are evil ........

> > > >

> > > > Just mostly shortsighted, stupid, arrogant,

> > > > brainwashed and generally a blot on the

> > > > landscape!!!!!

> > > >

> > > > Joanna

> > > >

> > > > use of is subject to the

> > > Terms

> > > > of Service.

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > >

February 22, 2002

St.Cloud Minnesota

--- saraavi ranch <claudiaayaz@...> wrote:

> wow! how cool. where do you live?

> claudia

>

> --- carlena seepgaither <summershart@...>

> wrote:

> > For me its the ones that are open to questions,

> and

> > if

> > they don't know the answers they acknowledge that,

> > go

> > find the answers and if I was wrong in thinking

> they

> > show me where I am wrong and vise versa. My best

> > friend is the best teacher I know. She takes the

> > takes

> > the time to teach her kids about the basic human

> > skills. Washing your hands after going to the

> > bathroom, friendships. She loves everyone of those

> > chidlren like they are hers. Is they are sad she

> has

> > told me that her heart aches for them, when they

> > achieve something they have tried so hard to do,

> she

> > cheers them on. I have had teachers like these,

> and

> > I

> > have had teachers that don't care about if you

> make

> > it

> > or not. But she is one of the good ones.

> > --- saraavi ranch <claudiaayaz@...> wrote:

> > > what is the formula that one is able to part the

> > > world

> > > into good ones and bad ones? i wish i could do

> > that,

> > > but i haven't quite figured out how. can you

> help?

> > > thanx.

> > > claudia

> > >

> > > --- carlena seepgaither <summershart@...>

> > > wrote:

> > > > No, they are good doctors and they are bad

> > > doctors.

> > > > Just like there are good teachers and bad

> > > teachers,

> > > > good parents and bad parents. Its are job to

> > find

> > > > them

> > > > out. My best friend's husband is going to be a

> > > > doctor

> > > > and I he's not shortsighted, stupid, arrogant,

> > > > brainwashed and ect. I resent that comment.

> Nor

> > > are

> > > > my

> > > > two kids peds doctors.

> > > >

> > > > Carlena

> > > > --- joanna athome <joanna_at_home@...>

> > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > in IL <tgdamron@...>

> wrote:

> > > > > not all doctors are evil ........

> > > > >

> > > > > Just mostly shortsighted, stupid, arrogant,

> > > > > brainwashed and generally a blot on the

> > > > > landscape!!!!!

> > > > >

> > > > > Joanna

> > > > >

> > > > > use of is subject to the

>

> > > > Terms

> > > > > of Service.

> > > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > >

February 22, 2002

the point is - well, schools would call it

'convenience' for parents - the truth is - control

over kids... :-)

claudia

--- carlena seepgaither <summershart@...> wrote:

> As far

> as any of my kids getting medical exams in school

> What's the point of this?

>

> --- Hjfasufi@... wrote:

> > school life is getting more difficult

> > by the year it seams, and together with the aim to

> > take over control of the kids (having parents sign

> > forms to allow schools to take care of medical

> check

> > ups etc), more and more parents are favoring

> > homeschooling. and a lot of us parents still have

> to

> > learn not to put too much value on what the

> > neighbours

> > think, too. :-))

> > claudia

> >

> > I've always felt this way claudia! Nice to know

> I'm

> > not the only one. As far

> > as any of my kids getting medical exams in school,

> > forget it!

> >

> > PS: I read a great post today on another list. I'm

> > going to forward it.

> >

>

> __________________________________________________

>

February 22, 2002

Liz,

You sound so much like me, it's scary. I've homeschooled our son on and off

for several years. I have to admit...it was GREAT for him, but very very

tiring and well, constraining, for me.

My husband's a lawyer. I'm a former legal assistant now stay-at-home Mom.

I'm a little different than you in that I truly enjoyed my career. I really

miss the legal world. For me, being a Mom's been great and I do like

staying at home, mostly.

But now our son's in a private Montessori based school (absolutely loves it

and doing well, thank you), but I'm well, bored to tears!

So, I've decided to try to find something charitable and worthwhile to seek

my teeth into.

But, oh would I love to be in your shoes with the animals, etc. That's my

kind of life!

Re: Report Backs Infant Vaccinations

> The 'real' world?? The real world is what we make it. I can tell you

absolutely nothing I learned in the 12 years I spent in public school really

taught me anything that helps me in my day to day 'real life'. No where in

there was there preparation for simple things like home budgeting (hey, I

took trig and pre cal and all that high level crap, so much for reality...)

, basic household maintenance (wish I'd taken shop instead of pre-collage

electives), parenting, etc.

>

> I worked everything from a hip trendy job at a local health food store

right out of high school, to working directly with upper level management on

a major corporate project before having my kids. NOTHING I learned in public

school helped with any of it. College was only slightely more intellegent...

>

> And honestly, I hope I'll never have to go back to the back-biting, closed

minded, brown nosing, short sited corporate world. I tell ya, talk about a

bunch of people stuck in the never ending high school popularity contest

loop!! I feel so bad for my poor husband who has to go right into the thick

of it every day. Ra-ra corporate America! I see no point in having to

indoctrinate children into that sort of lifestyle any earlier than

necessary. It's bad enough we have to conform to a bunch of stupid standards

as adults when we can fully understand WHY, we sure don't need to force kids

to do the same when it's totally not necessary. Self discipline doesn't come

from being forced to conform, it comes from learning the consequence of ones

actions. Meaning kids and adults alike need to be allowed the freedom to

make their own choices, and then wither suffer the consequences or reap the

rewards.

>

> I really love my current 'real' world of being a stay at home momma, a

wife, and all the various other things I do (small time horse breeder, wish

I had time to finish remodeling my 100 year old house, I love to sew,

garden, cook, I raise my own goats and will again be attempting chickens and

hope the wildlife doesn't run off with them AGAIN, I love the concept of

homesteading... and where exactly was the school course on all this??).

>

> I think the mentality that is brainwashed into kids from the time they are

little <school age> is the same brainwashed mentality that has allowed

something as dangerous as vaccinations to become so mainstream and accepted.

It's the thought that one must conform to succeed. That mediocrity is

acceptable, and to blend in and not make waves is the ultimate form of

acceptable social behavior.

>

> I don't give a rats butt if my kid is at the same level as a child in

public school. If my oldest doesn't want to learn to read until he's 12,

that's his choice. He may however decide to become obsessed with mathematics

and concentrate on being a math wiz. Who knows! He already meets or exceeds

most of the requirements of a child in Kindergarten, even though he isn't

even school age yet (and isn't being formally schooled in any way). By this

fall when he's supposed to start 'school', I'm sure he'll already be past

his comparable school level. If not, then oh well. I doubt that if he learns

to write his name a 5 or 10 it will really make a difference when he's 20.

There are *SO* many things to learn in life, what is taught in school has so

little relevance to the real world. It's pretty obvious that the current way

of raising kids in the US isn't working... but no one wants to point the

finger at the 'ship the kids off to daycare/school/latchkey and let someone

else raise them' mentality that is causing it. It's uncomfortable to blame

parents for not parenting, and so the kids suffer. That goes across the

board... being present doesn't mean a parent is actively parenting. But

being absent the majority of the time sure makes it that much harder for a

person to be an active part of their kids life.

>

> My priority with my kids education, just like their lives, isn't keeping

up with the es. I don't want them to be like the kid down the street. I

don't want them to be anyone but themselves! If that means they are

undisciplined by the rest of the worlds standards, oh well. I'd rather they

be undisciplined and happy then brow beaten into model behavior that makes

them miserable for all the days of their lives. Conformity sucks.

>

> By most peoples standards, I'm negligent because I don't vaccinate. Yet if

you're on this list I'd hope you'd be informed enough to realize vaccination

can be horribly dangerous, far more so than most of the diseases being

vaccinated against. For the educated person, where the real risk lies is

obvious... it's in the syringe full of poison behind the needles so many

parents blindly allow to be jabbed into their kids. I know that, hopefully

you know that, I'd venture to say most people on this list know that. To bad

the rest of the US doesn't....

>

> Because we choose differently, many 'main stream' people won't understand

the choices we make. Their lack of understanding will come across in many

ways... from hostility to curiosity. The same applies to many other non-main

stream concepts like homeschooling, extended breastfeeding, attachment

parenting, etc. etc. etc. Although you may not completely understand the

concepts, there are good reasons behind all of them. None of which have

anything to do with making sure our kids are the same as mainstream kids...

generally the goal is to make sure that DOESN'T happen.

>

> Liz

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: carlena seepgaither

> That is preparing my couusins

> for the future to be able to structure yourself and be

> disciplined. Plus its getting you outside exposure to

> the " real " world and its rules.

>

> Yes children will find anything that they find to

> tease a child, but at least if people are going to

> homeschool, do it in away that they chidlren feel they

> are just as smart a child that goes to public/private

> school. There will always be competion between

> children why not also give them the grounds to equally

> compete with public/private schooled chidlren?

>

Sign In

Re: Report Backs Infant Vaccinations

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest