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It probably wouldn't cure chronic lyme because I think that the cathelicidin

only clears out any pathogens in the blood so it you would still need abx for

borrelia in the tissues

Vitamin D

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Ken,

> >

> > I stumbled on to this article that says you should not take

Vitamin

> D

> > supplements. It was written by Trevor Marshall so we have to

take

> it

> > with a grain of salt. Here's an excerpt from the article:

> >

> > " Molecular biology is now forcing us to re-think the idea that

a

> low

> > measured value of vitamin D means we simply must add more to

our

> > diet. Supplemental vitamin D has been used for decades, and yet

the

> > epidemics of chronic disease, such as heart disease and

obesity,

> are

> > just getting worse. "

> >

> > " Our disease model has shown us why low levels of vitamin D are

> > observed in association with major and chronic illness, "

Marshall

> > added. " Vitamin D is a secosteroid hormone, and the body

regulates

> > the production of all it needs. In fact, the use of supplements

can

> > be harmful, because they suppress the immune system so that the

> body

> > cannot fight disease and infection effectively. "

> >

> > Here's the link to the complete article:

> >

> > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080125223302.htm

> >

> > I am on Valcyte but want to add another protocol. I'm

considering

> > the FWIW protocol but got concerned about the Vitamin D....

> >

> > Please tell me what you think about this article.

> >

> > Sincerely, Jody

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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Hi ,

Thanks for the information. I haven't found much on the internet yet but I'll

keep looking.

I discovered basically the same thing in December through experimenting with

different enzymes to see if they would help my digestive problems. Was very

surprised when I started to herx on them. When I added bromelain the oppressive

brain fog began to improve. I'm also on antibiotics for Lyme but the

enzymes/bromelain are really packing a powerful punch to them. I'm hopeful.

I added them to my son's regime as well and this is the best he's been in 9

years.

Best Wishes,

Barbara

Re: Re: Vitamin D

What type of enzymes are best. Can you provide any other details or further

references where I can learn more.

Thanks in advance.

With Lyme I think its

important to be aware that after a few weeks exposure to the

cathelecidin (produced by the vit D) the lyme bacteria will go into

cyst form. You will then not be able to get at the bacteria with

antibiotics without taking enzymes first to take the cyst coating off

>

>

>

>

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I think Lyme can reactivate at any time if you haven't completely erradicated

it. 4 months is quite a short time to treat for Lyme. You probably did get

the infection down a lot but it may be growing back graduallly. You may want

to pulse a natural anti bacterial like Samento or garlic to keep the lyme down

Vitamin D

>

>

>

> Hi Ken,

>

> I stumbled on to this article that says you should not take Vitamin

D

> supplements. It was written by Trevor Marshall so we have to take

it

> with a grain of salt. Here's an excerpt from the article:

>

> " Molecular biology is now forcing us to re-think the idea that a

low

> measured value of vitamin D means we simply must add more to our

> diet. Supplemental vitamin D has been used for decades, and yet the

> epidemics of chronic disease, such as heart disease and obesity,

are

> just getting worse. "

>

> " Our disease model has shown us why low levels of vitamin D are

> observed in association with major and chronic illness, " Marshall

> added. " Vitamin D is a secosteroid hormone, and the body regulates

> the production of all it needs. In fact, the use of supplements can

> be harmful, because they suppress the immune system so that the

body

> cannot fight disease and infection effectively. "

>

> Here's the link to the complete article:

>

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080125223302.htm

>

> I am on Valcyte but want to add another protocol. I'm considering

> the FWIW protocol but got concerned about the Vitamin D....

>

> Please tell me what you think about this article.

>

> Sincerely, Jody

>

>

>

>

>

>

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There are quite a few articles on google about K2 and osteoporosis

Here is one from Mercola http://www.mercola.com/forms/vitamin_k2.htm

Vitamin K can be obtained from eating green leafy vegetables but as I understand

it vitamin K2 is more effective. K2 is found in fermented foods like Natto and

Kefir or it can be taken as a supplement

It is great for remineralising teeth along with calcium and D3.

Re: Vitamin D

>

> The inability of oral 25(OH)D to increase serum 25(OH)D levels, and

> the presence of osteoporosis in a child, might very likely be due to

> a malabsorption problem. Even in people with sarcoidosis who have

> confirmed TH1 1,25(OH)2D production, giving them 25(OH)D will cause

> their 25(OH)D levels to rise. Has celiac disease been tested for?

> This is a common cause of low 25(OH)D and osteoporosis in children,

> as it would block both oral 25(OH)D and calcium absorption.

>

> Btw, if mega doses of oral vitamin D have been tried without success,

> then a vitamin D shot can be used.

>

> Also, TH1 production of 1,25(OH)2D has never been shown to exist in

> the medical literature, without the presence of tissue inflammation,

> such as sarcoidosis.

>

>

> > >

> > > > Again - my experience: my kid got higher and higher amounts of

> D,

> > but

> > > > neither his 25D values nor his osteoporosis changed. Now I hope

> I

> > > > know why.>>

> > >

> > > Is your son diagnosed with CFS or ME?

> > >

> > > I remember reading on " his " site years ago that he believes CFS

> is

> > > bacterial in origin and he stands by this. He's incorrect about

> > this.

> > >

> > > Nat

> > >

> >

>

>

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Yes I found the enzymes by accident too. I was taking them for a sinus

infection and wham next day I had a lyme herx. I experimented a bit and found

that I could always herx with a certain amount of enzymes combined with a

natural antibiotic. There isn't much on the web about enzymes and lyme but I

have from time to time come across articles by LLMDs who use them. Can't find

anything right now but if I do I will post it here. Glad to hear the enzymes

are helping you and your son - they do pack a punch

Re: Re: Vitamin D

What type of enzymes are best. Can you provide any other details or further

references where I can learn more.

Thanks in advance.

With Lyme I think its

important to be aware that after a few weeks exposure to the

cathelecidin (produced by the vit D) the lyme bacteria will go into

cyst form. You will then not be able to get at the bacteria with

antibiotics without taking enzymes first to take the cyst coating off

>

>

>

>

>Messages in this topic (78) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic

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other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

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> To the point: I will reread it in the next few days, to be able to

> comment more intelligently. A few comments for now:

> - does 25D (an 1,25 without, I think, the hydroxy) block the

> VDR? this is a molecular biology question, so I'd consider a

> molecular biologist's view to carry weight here. Are there works to

> the contrary?

Yes, read my web page.

> Celiac was absolutely ruled out, using

> three different methods. Gets a lot of Calcium. Does not seem to have

> Calcium absorption issue per the tests.

Per what test? Also, the elevated 1,25(OH)2D could be compensating for

an intestinal calcium absorption problem, couldn't it? So how does one

test for this? One possible way is take a significant extra amount of

calcium and see if the 1,25(OH)2D goes down.

- Mark

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Phosphate problems can cause both increased 1,25(OH)2D and low PTH.

If you have phosphate absorption problems, or renal excretion

problems, this will have a direct effect on both 1,25(OH)2D and PTH.

For example, some people believe that phosphage diabetes can cause

CFS like symptoms. See:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9683977

Such problems sometimes don't show up in normal tests, and require a

24 hour urinary test.

I assume you've tested for Crohn's disease, if you've tested for

celiac? Crohn's disease can cause increased 1,25(OH)2D production,

because like sarcoidosis, it's a granuloma disease. Decreased 25(OH)

D is common.

But back to your statement that oral vitamin D didn't cause any

increase in 25(OH)D. How much oral vitamin D was used, and for how

long? Sometimes mega doses are necessarily (50,000 IU/week). What

did your doctor say regarding this issue? This sure still sounds

more like an intestinal absorption problem.

If there is significant TH1 production of 1,25(OH)2D, then vitamin D

supplementation should actually increase 1,25(OH)2D production, at

least it does in sarcoidosis. The MP claims that 25(OH)D blocks the

effect of 1,25(OH)2D, and therefore reduces inflammation and 1,25(OH)

2D. But there is no proof that this effect occurs in sarcoidosis

patients. Some people believe that this explanation by the MP was

added for non-sarcoidosis patients, in order to explain why many

people were showing up with normal or low 1,25(OH)2D. But this is

convoluted, because everything in the medical literature says that

1,25(OH)2D has anti-inflammatory effects, so that blocking 1,25(OH)2D

should actually increase inflammation. - Mark

> >

> > My understanding, he is saying that people with HIGH 1,25

hormone

> and

> > LOW 25D levels is an indication of inflamed macrophages

hyperactive

> > conversion to active hormone. So this dyregulation of Vit D

> > conversion affects people with autoimmune and other TH1

> illnesess.

> > Well that makes sense. My doctor had a patient who had this

> problem

> > and told him to stop taking Vitamin D.

> >

> > I personally don't have problems with the conversion so taking

> Vitamin

> > D supplementation is helpful for me.

> >

> > Am I missing something?

> >

> > Nat

> >

>

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I have more on enzymes in my " MRSA/Sepsis " article at url below.

The principles can work for various infections that

are not as severe as MRSA or sepsis. I'd couple that with

homeopathic tx concurrently.

Carol

willis_protocols

Articles in Files.

" " <jl@...> wrote:

>

> Any plant enzymes seem to work for me (bromelain on its own is fine

or a mixture of plant enzymes is ok). They need to be taken on an

empty stomach throughout the day and I need a total of about 6

capsules in a day.

>

> I can't give you any links for information about this as its more

of a discovery I have made myself through experimentation - though

the use of enzymes in lyme to attack the cyst form is reported by

some LLMDs and I believe there are some references to it on the web

>

>

>

>

> Re: Re: Vitamin D

>

>

> What type of enzymes are best. Can you provide any other details

or further references where I can learn more.

>

> Thanks in advance.

>

>

> With Lyme I think its

> important to be aware that after a few weeks exposure to the

> cathelecidin (produced by the vit D) the lyme bacteria will go

into

> cyst form. You will then not be able to get at the bacteria with

> antibiotics without taking enzymes first to take the cyst coating

off

> >

> >

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  • 4 months later...
Guest guest

A couple years ago I read from the web site of a major medical lab

that vitamin D deficiency is showing back up. I believe it was quest

labs but can't remember for sure. If anyone would know, it would be

a lab. They see these trends first hand.

I just

saw this on CBS Evening News with Couric ... here is what is

on their

> web site

>

> INCREASE VITAMIN D after a 10 year study.

>

> Ed

>

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Guest guest

Your right. I forget becuase I live at 33 degrees north latitude in

east texas. So I get more sun than those who live up north. I

believe everything that is being said about D. And here is another

thought on living at higher latitudes. Does everone here know that

the incidence of thyroid dysfunction increases at higher latitudes?

- In Lipitor , Steve

<dudescholar4@...> wrote:

>

> I cannot get vitamin D from the sun six months of the year at the

> latitude where I live, and for some of the other 6 months I would

need

> to spend a hour of two in the sun wearing almost nothing. From

October

> to March it is not possible to make any vitamin D in Salt Lake

City, UT,

> and if you could, one would be quite chilly running round in their

> skivvies. For a couple of months (june/july) of the year 20-40

minutes

> might be enough. Today we had a high of 60. I don't do bathing

suits

> at 60 degrees. I also happen to be approaching 50 years old and

> cholesterol conversion to vitamin D decreases substantially as one

ages.

> If I was a black man, I would need to increase sun exposure by

several

> times to get blood levels equal to a white man at the same

latitude.

> Black women get greater rates of breast cancer and black men get

greater

> rates of prostate cancer. Does anyone have a clue? If you have

darker

> skin, there are no options in the USA except to take supplemental

vitamin D.

>

> I drink almost no milk and would never depend on milk for vitamin

D.

> About 98% of all the fluid I drink is water. If it was so easy to

get

> vitamin D from the sun when children used to spend a lot more time

> outdoors, why did they need to add vitamin D to milk to prevent

rickets?

> It is absolutely true that the farther north one lives, the

greater

> the percentage of people who get heart disease, heart attacks,

cancer,

> diabetes, and a dozen other diseases. Taking the time to spend 20-

120

> minutes in the sun year around would never ever be enough to raise

your

> blood levels adequately, unless you live much closer to the

tropics and

> wear more exposing clothing.

>

> As I've said, the lab reference ranges is 32 - 100 ng/ml. The

evidence

> is mounting fast that at least 50 ng/ml is much more effective

than 32

> ng/ml. Taking 4000 IU placed me at 33 ng/ml and taking 7000

IU/day

> moved my blood levels to 63 ng/ml.

>

> Do you know what your blood levels of vitamin D are?

>

> Steve

>

> flyinresorts wrote:

> >

> >

> > Why not get your Vitamin D from the sun? Its free. You can't OD

from

> > the sun, but you could OD from supplements. I'm not against

> > suppliments. I take them. But the sun is free. 98% of our

vitamin D

> > requirments come from the sun. You would have to drink 40

glasses of

> > d fortified milk per day to get the amount of D your body needs.

> >

> >

> > > > >

> > > > > I just saw this on CBS Evening News with Couric ...

here

> > is

> > > > > what is on their

> > > > > web site

> > > > >

> > > > > INCREASE VITAMIN D after a 10 year study.

> > > > >

> > > >

> >

<http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/09/eveningnews/main4167206.sh

> >

<http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/09/eveningnews/main4167206.sh

>

> > tml

> > > >

> >

<http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/09/eveningnews/main4167206.sh

> >

<http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/09/eveningnews/main4167206.sh

>

> > tml>>

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Ed

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > >

> > > > Steve - dudescholar4@ <mailto:dudescholar4%40basicmail.net>

> > > >

> > >

> > > --

> > >

> > > Steve - dudescholar4@

> > >

> > > Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

> > > http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

> > <http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html>

> > >

> > > " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

> > > to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

>

> --

>

> Steve - dudescholar4@...

>

> Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

> http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

>

> " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

> to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

>

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Guest guest

The surgeon I work with has just begun checking vitamin D levels. We have a

patient with

vitamin D25 21 (low with normal 30-80)

PTH 29 (normal)

I Ca 5.03 (normal)

We would like to supplement Vitamin D, but are unsure of how much?

Is an additional 1000 IU daily enough when already taking calcium with vitamin D

and the daily multivamin with vit D?

Sorg MS, RD, LD

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Guest guest

,

Hope this gets some of your questions answered. If you still need more information or documentation please don't hesitate to call me. Deane 501-993-6607Deane Peck MS,RD,LDPediatric Fitness Clinic CoordinatorArkansas Childrens Hospital11215 Hermitage Rd.Little Rock, Ar. 72211

From: scasorg@... <scasorg@...>Subject: Re: vitamin D Date: Friday, June 20, 2008, 8:00 AM

The surgeon I work with has just begun checking vitamin D levels. We have a patient withvitamin D25 21 (low with normal 30-80)PTH 29 (normal)I Ca 5.03 (normal)We would like to supplement Vitamin D, but are unsure of how much?Is an additional 1000 IU daily enough when already taking calcium with vitamin D and the daily multivamin with vit D? Sorg MS, RD, LD

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  • 1 month later...
Guest guest

D2 is used to treat deficiency (<20 ng/mL) i.e., 50,000 IU ergocalciferol twice weekly for 3 mos

Amy Long Carrera MS, RD Clinical Dietitian Northridge Hospital Medical Center & Center for Weight Loss Surgery Northridge, CA Amy.Long@... 818-885-8500 x4034

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of caralyng24@...Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 5:45 AM Subject: vitamin D

Does anyone know when there is an indication to use vitamin D2 instead of D3? I know D3 is more potent, but in some of the references I have D2 specifically is mentioned for treatment. Also, do they both come in dry form?

Thanks,

Cara GreenspanClinical Dietitian, Bariatric Surgery DietitianTemple University HospitalPhone: 215-707-8468email: cara.greenspantuhs (DOT) temple.edu

RE: Flatulence

I have a pt that had this trouble. Once we ruled out dietary triggers, we recommended Devrom which has been used for odor for a long time in ostomy pts and now in bariatric pts.

Debbie Petitpain, MS, RD, LD

MUSC Bariatric Surgery Team Dietitian

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of maryjean072045Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 8:09 AM Subject: Flatulence

Hi, I have a patient 3 years out that has an extreme issue with gas producing a stong odor. We tried avoiding dairy, carbs, utilizing gas-x, pancreatic enzymes...she does not have a gallbladder. Any ideas?Thanks in advance!

The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now!

The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now!

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  • 2 months later...

Fatigue, high temperature, or herx is often the result of a sudden increase of

D3. I strongly recommended slowly starting up at a lower dosages (200 Iu) and

then working up to 4-10000 IU/day. It will take several months to get there.

>

> My lab results for vitamin D,25-hydroxy was 13.0. The range listed

was

> 32.0 to 80.0. My doc started me on 50,000 units of vitamin D. I

started

> Monday. All it did was cause extreme fatigue. I'm still not

completely

> recovered. Are there any alternatives to increasing my vitamin D

levels

> besides the one my doc suggested?

> Tony

>

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Dear Tony,

I am quite sure that I missed an important discussion on vitamin D3. Can you

tell what it is used for and what are the CFS symptoms that are either eased or

gotten rid of using it?

[Moderator: Please search the archives which are rich in information]

I was perplexed that it can cause such side effects. I know that it useful in

fighting Seasonal Affective Disorder, and help the immune system, but other than

that I am clueless.

Thank you!

Mira

@...: tony23@...: Thu, 30 Oct 2008

03:38:38 -0700Subject: Vitamin D

Thanks, KenI'll try that.TonyFatigue, high temperature, or herx is often the

result of a sudden increase of D3. I strongly recommended slowly starting up at

a lower dosages (200 Iu) and then working up to 4-10000 IU/day. It will take

several months to get there.

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Mira, Vitamin D3 is now recognized as being a major immune system

essential. Low levels results in higher incidence of diabetes, cancer,

MS etc.

Supplementing with 2-4000IU/day results in lower cancer rates (> 50%),

lower diabetes rates (in one Finnish Study > 70% less), etc.

Dr. Hock (Germany) found that getting the levels up to optimal levels

results in either improvement or remission of CFIDS. It is NOT a

**sudden remission** but a gradual remission, so do not expect to see

any immediate change. It can takes months at 10000IU/day to get some

people up to optimal levels.

Ken

Can you tell what it is used for and what are the CFS symptoms that are

either eased or gotten rid of using it?

> Mira

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Mira Ghoshal wrote:

> Dear Tony,

> I am quite sure that I missed an important discussion on vitamin D3. Can you

tell what it is used for and what are the CFS symptoms that are either eased or

gotten rid of using it?

>

Dear Mira,

I have no idea what the CFS symptoms are. The only reason I

startedtaking it was that my doctor tested me on Vitamin D levels since

half of his patients including himself were low on Vitamin D.

>

>

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Ken,

I've been following this discussion about vit D with interest, and I

remember reading about it on your FWIW site a couple years ago. I was

at 2000IU/day and recently have upped that to 4000IU/day. You mention

going as high as 10,000IU/day. Is there any possible harm from

overdosing on vit D?

[Moderator: from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D

" The exact long-term safe dose of vitamin D is not entirely known, but dosages

up to 250 micrograms (10,000 IU) /day in healthy adults are believed to be

safe.[13], "

" Some symptoms of vitamin D toxicity are a result of hypercalcemia (an elevated

level of calcium in the blood) caused by increased intestinal calcium

absorption. Vitamin D toxicity is known to be a cause of high blood

pressure.[47] Gastrointestinal symptoms of vitamin D toxicity can include

anorexia, nausea, and vomiting. "

So BP would likely be the best indicator for CFIDS patients -- because they

usually have low BP]

And lastly, when testing vit D levels is there

more than one type of test, and if so, is any particular test

preferred over another?

[Moderator: 25,D, the " usual Vitamin D " test]

Wait, one more question! I'm wondering how

often it makes sense to get vit D levels checked, since you indicate

levels can be slow to change even when supplementing at generous levels.

[Moderator: Once every 6-12 months IMHO]

Once again my thanks in general for your helpful comments and posts on

this forum.

Marcia on

in Salem, Massachusetts

>

> Mira, Vitamin D3 is now recognized as being a major immune system

> essential. Low levels results in higher incidence of diabetes, cancer,

<snip>

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cbwillis9 wrote:

> " Marcia " <mmorrison@...> wrote:

>

>> Is there any possible harm from overdosing on vit D?

> Possible kidney stones longer term.- Carol W.

>

> Tony added

>

I have heard that excess Vitamin D can cause calcium to be deposited on

your coronary arteries. Also have heard that getting enough Vitamin K

will prevent this.

Tony

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Yes, if your 1,25(OH)2D levels are too high, you can get calcium

deposits. However, f you take enough calcium and vitamin D supplements

though, this will keep your 1,25(OH)2D levels down. - Mark

> >

> >> Is there any possible harm from overdosing on vit D?

> > Possible kidney stones longer term.- Carol W.

> >

> > Tony added

> >

> I have heard that excess Vitamin D can cause calcium to be deposited

on

> your coronary arteries. Also have heard that getting enough Vitamin K

> will prevent this.

> Tony

>

>

>

>

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Hi Ken,

Do you have a reference to Dr Hock's research on Vit D and CFS. it

sound s v interesting.

BW,

Sheila

[Moderator:

Fatigue and 25-Hydroxyvitamin D Levels

by Dorothea Hock page 117-127, Journal of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

Volume 3 Number 3, 1997

http://www.haworthpress.com/store/toc/J092v03n03_TOC.pdf?sid=816C3D9J4U678JELXW2\

QW6G1MJ048S73 &

see also http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/cfs_book.pdf, p.105

This online book is an INTERESTING READ -- and is worth the reading.]

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The vitamin D issue is very interesting, especially since most people with CFS

have to seriously cut back, or completely give up dairy products; a major source

of vitamin D.  

From: lowcreoch <sllc.jkc@...>

Subject: Re: Vitamin D

Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 4:18 PM

Hi Ken,

Do you have a reference to Dr Hock's research on Vit D and CFS. it

sound s v interesting.

BW,

Sheila

[Moderator:

Fatigue and 25-Hydroxyvitamin D Levels

by Dorothea Hock page 117-127, Journal of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

Volume 3 Number 3, 1997

http://www.haworthpress.com/store/toc/J092v03n03_TOC.pdf?sid=816C3D9J4U678JELXW2\

QW6G1MJ048S73 &

see also http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/cfs_book.pdf, p.105

This online book is an INTERESTING READ -- and is worth the reading.]

------------------------------------

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

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Why do people with CFS have to " seriously cut back or completely give up

dairy products " ? What are the symptoms that make this necessary?

Thanks for any responses.

F.

[Moderator: I do not believe that " many " is correct, there seems to be a

significant percentage that have diary issues --- creating a poll now to get

some facts]

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  • 1 month later...

Josie I drink ENSURE and the Docs are shocked that my Vit D is great.

Just a suggestion.

Jo Lynne

Vitamin D

Dr. Mercola is BIG on supplementing with Vitamin D. He had a video on his daily newsletter recently about it. He mentioned a home test for D levels that is accurate, and I am going to try to find it. Josie

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