Guest guest Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 ALL, I usually have to fight a dozen colds a winter. This winter I've been taking 400mg Vit D both morning and night and haven't even had one cold! There is plenty of evidence that D protects against a host of other health problems as well. I'd at least take it in the winter when your body isn't making it. Edgar On Feb 1, 2008, at 1:14 PM, Mark London wrote: > The theory that Vitamin D is bad is basically mainly based on > computer simulations, which mean nothing without real lab studies to > back it up. He also claims that his patients do better with lower > levels of vitamin D, but he doesn't mention that they are also taking > a huge dose of Benicar, antibiotics, and other supplements and > dietary changes. It's impossible to claim from such a treatment that > the reduction of the vitamin D by itself has any negative effect, > since they so many other changes are being applied at the same time. > Note also in the article he mentions a " Vitamin D agonist " . That is > actually referring to Benicar. Again, there is no proof that it acts > as a vitamin D agonist, except in a computer simulation, which again > is almost meaningless. He claimed the same thing for certain > statins, and that claim was proven false by a drug manufacturer's lab > study. > > Meanwhile, tons of real lab studies show that many people have > vitamin D levels lower than the OLD recommendation, not just the new > recommendations, which Trevor is arguing against. The new > recommendation believes that a normal 25(OH)D level should be at > least 32 ug/l, as nicely described in the following article: > > http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/2/317 > > The article by Trevor doesn't address any of the arguments presented > by that and other papers, as to what the normal 25(OH)D levels should > be. Indeed, many vitamin D experts believe that even those > recommendations are low, and that the minimum level should instead be > 50 ug/L. > > As for vitamin D being hard on the liver, there is no proof that that > occurs either. Sunshine will produce a lot of the same exact > chemical, i.e. Vitamin D, which will then have to be converted by the > liver also. Indeed studies on huge oral doses (28,000 to 280,000 per > week) have been studied and found to be safe, without any negative > effect on liver enzymes and other parameters: > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17823429 > > > > I can tell you my NP said not to take Vit D because it's hard on > the liver. > > Instead she wants me to get more sun. I live in New Mexico. I > really can't > > get anymore than I do in my mind.. So I supplement with about > 2000mg per > > day. > > > > > > > > Wendi Carrillo > > > > > > > > From: > > [mailto: ] On Behalf Of > > jocelynakajodyjohnson > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:52 AM > > > > Subject: Vitamin D > > > > > > > > Hi Ken, > > > > I stumbled on to this article that says you should not take Vitamin > D > > supplements. It was written by Trevor Marshall so we have to take > it > > with a grain of salt. Here's an excerpt from the article: > > > > " Molecular biology is now forcing us to re-think the idea that a > low > > measured value of vitamin D means we simply must add more to our > > diet. Supplemental vitamin D has been used for decades, and yet the > > epidemics of chronic disease, such as heart disease and obesity, > are > > just getting worse. " > > > > " Our disease model has shown us why low levels of vitamin D are > > observed in association with major and chronic illness, " Marshall > > added. " Vitamin D is a secosteroid hormone, and the body regulates > > the production of all it needs. In fact, the use of supplements can > > be harmful, because they suppress the immune system so that the > body > > cannot fight disease and infection effectively. " > > > > Here's the link to the complete article: > > > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080125223302.htm > > > > I am on Valcyte but want to add another protocol. I'm considering > > the FWIW protocol but got concerned about the Vitamin D.... > > > > Please tell me what you think about this article. > > > > Sincerely, Jody > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Just recently I had a battery of labs drawn, one was Vit D levels. I have been taking 400 IU's three times a day for several months now and even at that level the lab test came back midrange normal. Perhaps that's normal for me...I don't recall having a Vit D level drawn before. I plan to keep taking it, since I had no colds this winter, and I am feeling so much better with other symptoms. I don't think Vit D did all the repair work, but don't want to take the chance of weakening my immune system...the labs say my IGG and IGA values are still very low. Diane in MI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 What a coincidence this topic comes up as I struggle to make any sense of what different people have been telling me. I'm starting dr. Pall's/Ziem's protocol with the prescribed Nebulized Glutathione and Hydroxocobalamin. My PCP was more than willing to work with me on this and we live close to the pharmacy that does the work for dr. Ziem and Pall. Before I started the protocol my dr. wanted me to have some test so we could track my progress, if any. ;-) My Vit.D test came back almost not measurable at all. My dr. keeps different 'Optimal Ranges' than the labs do, he says one size does not fit all. Especially for those chronically ill. Vit D 25OH <4.0 60 - 160 Optimal Range He wants me to take 10,000 iu a day until my levels are within the range. He tells me Vitamin D malnutrition is linked to several chronic diseases such multiple sclerosis, chronic pain, depression and several autoimmune diseases. 'Normal' people get their Vit D. from sunshine and other sources. However besides ME I also have Lupus with the symptoms, among them Photo sensitivity. I have to stay out of the sun because my system sees UV as intruders and it will provoke an attack. My liver is damaged due to other illnesses I had, so are my kidneys because of the Lupus. So what to do? I now hear all kinds of horror stories about Vit.D, while I actually left my dr. office optimistic, finally another lab result that 'proved' something was wrong with me. Now I'm in doubt, depressed and confused. -- Portland, OR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Mark and all I took 50,000 ius of vitamin D weekly for 12 weeks last year with NO impact on my liver. Now take about 1600 ius daily for maintenance. mjh **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002\ 5 48) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Trevor Marshall's views on vitamin D are totally opposite to almost every medical researcher's views, so IMHO I would follow the advice of your doctors. To show you how far the 2 viewpoints are apart, vitamin D researchers believe that up to 1 billion people might be low or deficient in vitamin D, while Trevor has stated on his web page: http://www.marshallprotocol.com/view_topic.php?forum_id=27 & id=8028 " There is no such thing as " Vitamin D Deficiency. " The body makes all the vitamin D it needs. It is made from 7-dehydrocholesterol. UVB light is not necessary at any point in this process. " > > What a coincidence this topic comes up as I struggle to make any > sense of what different people have been telling me. > > I'm starting dr. Pall's/Ziem's protocol with the prescribed Nebulized > Glutathione and Hydroxocobalamin. My PCP was more than willing to > work with me on this and we live close to the pharmacy that does the > work for dr. Ziem and Pall. > > Before I started the protocol my dr. wanted me to have some test so > we could track my progress, if any. ;-) > > My Vit.D test came back almost not measurable at all. > My dr. keeps different 'Optimal Ranges' than the labs do, he says one > size does not fit all. Especially for those chronically ill. > > Vit D 25OH <4.0 60 - 160 Optimal Range > > He wants me to take 10,000 iu a day until my levels are within the range. > > He tells me Vitamin D malnutrition is linked to several chronic > diseases such multiple sclerosis, chronic pain, depression and > several autoimmune diseases. > > 'Normal' people get their Vit D. from sunshine and other sources. > However besides ME I also have Lupus with the symptoms, among them > Photo sensitivity. I have to stay out of the sun because my system > sees UV as intruders and it will provoke an attack. > > My liver is damaged due to other illnesses I had, so are my kidneys > because of the Lupus. So what to do? I now hear all kinds of horror > stories about Vit.D, while I actually left my dr. office optimistic, > finally another lab result that 'proved' something was wrong with me. > > Now I'm in doubt, depressed and confused. > > -- > > Portland, OR > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 I have been taking 5000 iu a day of vitamin D for about a year with only improvements to note. When I first started taking it I had a herxheimer reaction as it cleared out pathogens in my blood (vitamin D stimulates the production of cathelicidin which is a powerful natural antibiotic) Before taking the D I hadn't taken any vit D or been in the sun for years and my nails and teeth had become very soft from lack of calcium. A year later they are much improved. My body is also more alkalised as I can retain the calcium I take and as a result I feel calmer and I sleep better With regards to Marshall I think I know why he doesn't like vitamin D. I have Lyme disease and when I started taking the vitamin D it pushed my Borrelia bacteria into cyst form so that the antibiotics I was taking no longer killed the bugs. Personally I think that Marshall is mainly treating people with Borrelia type infections and he finds that vitamin D slows their progress not because of the reasons that he thinks but because the cathelicidin produced by the vitamin D causes the bugs to go into defensive cyst form. The only way to get round this problem is to take enzymes to slough the coating of the cysts away so that you can still kill the bugs. Infact the cathelicin is a fantastic killer of lyme. Hence why those with low vitamin d in their blood develop these auto immune illnesses in the first place - auto -immune illnesses being mostly caused by Lyme and other bugs susceptible to cathelicidin Vitamin D > > > > Hi Ken, > > I stumbled on to this article that says you should not take Vitamin D > supplements. It was written by Trevor Marshall so we have to take it > with a grain of salt. Here's an excerpt from the article: > > " Molecular biology is now forcing us to re-think the idea that a low > measured value of vitamin D means we simply must add more to our > diet. Supplemental vitamin D has been used for decades, and yet the > epidemics of chronic disease, such as heart disease and obesity, are > just getting worse. " > > " Our disease model has shown us why low levels of vitamin D are > observed in association with major and chronic illness, " Marshall > added. " Vitamin D is a secosteroid hormone, and the body regulates > the production of all it needs. In fact, the use of supplements can > be harmful, because they suppress the immune system so that the body > cannot fight disease and infection effectively. " > > Here's the link to the complete article: > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080125223302.htm > > I am on Valcyte but want to add another protocol. I'm considering > the FWIW protocol but got concerned about the Vitamin D.... > > Please tell me what you think about this article. > > Sincerely, Jody > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 , you are a wealth of information. Thanks for that. I have chronic lyme, am doing well at the moment. I'm taking only 1200 IU's of Vit D, self prescribed. Just recently had that Vit D level checked, and family Dr. indicated I'm within non toxic levels...and the lab result confirmed I'm not toxic. I wasn't aware of the natural antibiotic property of Vit D. Do you think sometime when people take it they complain of side effects that are really a herx and not a reason to stop? diane in MI Vitamin D > > > > Hi Ken, > > I stumbled on to this article that says you should not take Vitamin D > supplements. It was written by Trevor Marshall so we have to take it > with a grain of salt. Here's an excerpt from the article: > > " Molecular biology is now forcing us to re-think the idea that a low > measured value of vitamin D means we simply must add more to our > diet. Supplemental vitamin D has been used for decades, and yet the > epidemics of chronic disease, such as heart disease and obesity, are > just getting worse. " > > " Our disease model has shown us why low levels of vitamin D are > observed in association with major and chronic illness, " Marshall > added. " Vitamin D is a secosteroid hormone, and the body regulates > the production of all it needs. In fact, the use of supplements can > be harmful, because they suppress the immune system so that the body > cannot fight disease and infection effectively. " > > Here's the link to the complete article: > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080125223302.htm > > I am on Valcyte but want to add another protocol. I'm considering > the FWIW protocol but got concerned about the Vitamin D.... > > Please tell me what you think about this article. > > Sincerely, Jody > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 Sorry, I had to delete your whole message. However, I was under the impression that the " winter blues " and high suicide rates in areas where there was little sunshine, and therefore little Vit. D produced, was why most docs recommend some sunshine every day or Vit D supplements. I live in Dallas, and we had an unusually wet and cloudy June/July in '07. One not particularly smart individual in my office at that time stated " I can see why there are so many suicides in Seattle " . I again assumed there was a Vit D connection, but maybe people just get depressed when it is cloudy or there is low pressure. Mike C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 A few comments regarding Trevor Marshall's view: 1) 25D is not the functional derivative of Vitamin D. 1,25D is. Marshall's is the only theory I know of that explains the combination of low 25D (even very low 25D, like some of the posters here conveyed), high (even very high – and even the ranges here are in contention) of 1,25D, and (and that's important) PTH values that are not high. So to your previous post, Mark – the model is based not only on computer simulations, but on actual test results (and the shortcomings of the current theory). 2) Marshall happens to explain the combination of high 1,25D, low 25D, and osteoporosis. I have a 9 years boy with this combination. No doctor came with any other explanation to this. 3) Marshall does have good answers to the questions presented. One may agree or disagree with him, but I'd recommend familiarizing oneself with the material. and, last but not least: 4) Marshall seems to achieve good treatment results. So, all in all – yes, Marshall's view is radically different. Is he wrong? I am pretty sure he is correct. The nice thing about it, is you can verify for yourself. Check 1,25D values (not just 25D). If high – something strange is going on. Then, consider doing the probe he suggests. And - if 1,25 is very high - why would you want to take Vitamin D??? ________________________________________ From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Mark London Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 03:48 Subject: Re: Vitamin D Trevor Marshall's views on vitamin D are totally opposite to almost every medical researcher's views, so IMHO I would follow the advice of your doctors. To show you how far the 2 viewpoints are apart, vitamin D researchers believe that up to 1 billion people might be low or deficient in vitamin D, while Trevor has stated on his web page: http://www.marshallprotocol.com/view_topic.php?forum_id=27 & id=8028 " There is no such thing as " Vitamin D Deficiency. " The body makes all the vitamin D it needs. It is made from 7-dehydrocholesterol. UVB light is not necessary at any point in this process. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 My understanding, he is saying that people with HIGH 1,25 hormone and LOW 25D levels is an indication of inflamed macrophages hyperactive conversion to active hormone. So this dyregulation of Vit D conversion affects people with autoimmune and other TH1 illnesess. Well that makes sense. My doctor had a patient who had this problem and told him to stop taking Vitamin D. I personally don't have problems with the conversion so taking Vitamin D supplementation is helpful for me. Am I missing something? Nat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 To my understanding, that is correct. It gets more complicated than that, as there are a few feedback loops supposedly working here and being skewed by the excess of the 1,25D. But his bottom line: there is never a deficiency in D. The supposedly " low ranges " are a misunderstanding of results from TH1 subjects, who actually had high active D. Whatever amount of D you are taking, will compete on the VDR, and block innate immunity. Again - my experience: my kid got higher and higher amounts of D, but neither his 25D values nor his osteoporosis changed. Now I hope I know why. > > My understanding, he is saying that people with HIGH 1,25 hormone and > LOW 25D levels is an indication of inflamed macrophages hyperactive > conversion to active hormone. So this dyregulation of Vit D > conversion affects people with autoimmune and other TH1 illnesess. > Well that makes sense. My doctor had a patient who had this problem > and told him to stop taking Vitamin D. > > I personally don't have problems with the conversion so taking Vitamin > D supplementation is helpful for me. > > Am I missing something? > > Nat > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 > Again - my experience: my kid got higher and higher amounts of D, but > neither his 25D values nor his osteoporosis changed. Now I hope I > know why.>> Is your son diagnosed with CFS or ME? I remember reading on " his " site years ago that he believes CFS is bacterial in origin and he stands by this. He's incorrect about this. Nat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Thanks for the interest. No - he is not. No official dx for now. BTW - I'm not paid to represent him :-), but I don't think we can easily discard his views on the source of CFS. And I think I am familiar (at least in Abstracts details) with most research in this field. The idea of CWDs (L-form of bacteria, or Cell Wall deficient form) which is extremely hard to detect is not an easy target to disprove. > > > Again - my experience: my kid got higher and higher amounts of D, but > > neither his 25D values nor his osteoporosis changed. Now I hope I > > know why.>> > > Is your son diagnosed with CFS or ME? > > I remember reading on " his " site years ago that he believes CFS is > bacterial in origin and he stands by this. He's incorrect about this. > > Nat > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 > 1) 25D is not the functional derivative of Vitamin D. 1,25D is. This is true, but he claims that 25(OH)D also attaches to the VDR and blocks the action of 1,25(OH)2D on the VDR. > Marshall's is the only theory I know of that explains the combination > of low 25D (even very low 25D, like some of the posters here > conveyed), high (even very high – and even the ranges here are in > contention) of 1,25D, and (and that's important) PTH values that are > not high. There is no database kept to show that people on the MP have normal PTH and high 1,25(OH)2D. In fact, a large number of people who go on the MP don't even have elevated 1,25(OH)2D. Elevated 1,25(OH)2D, or even elevated vitamin D ratio, is no longer a requirement to be on the MP. Besides which, PTH sensitivity can vary between people, so that individual cases can easily exist where PTH seems normal, and 1,25(OH) 2D is high because of low 25(OH)D, or low calcium absorption. Therefore, what needs to be done is for people to take significantly extra calcium and see if their 1,25(OH)2D levels drop. If so, then the 1,25(OH)2D is simply due to low calcium. > So to your previous post, Mark – the model is based not only on > computer simulations, but on actual test results (and the > shortcomings of the current theory). What model are you talking about? I'm talking about the model where Marshall states that 25(OH)D blocks the action of 1,25(OH)2D on the VDR. > 2) Marshall happens to explain the combination of high 1,25D, low > 25D, and osteoporosis. I have a 9 years boy with this combination. No > doctor came with any other explanation to this. Low 25(OH)D is a risk factor for osteoporosis, so I'm unclear why this case is unusual. Btw, 1,25(OH)2D levels have not been found to affect osteoporosis. Also btw, kids are often known to have high levels of 1,25(OH)2D than adults. > 4) Marshall seems to achieve good treatment results. Any good results from the Mp, do not prove any of his theories regarding vitamin D, because of the use of high amounts of benicar and antibiotics at the same time. There is no way of knowing whether avoiding vitamin D has any significant positive effect, because of all the other aspects of the treatment. - Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 The inability of oral 25(OH)D to increase serum 25(OH)D levels, and the presence of osteoporosis in a child, might very likely be due to a malabsorption problem. Even in people with sarcoidosis who have confirmed TH1 1,25(OH)2D production, giving them 25(OH)D will cause their 25(OH)D levels to rise. Has celiac disease been tested for? This is a common cause of low 25(OH)D and osteoporosis in children, as it would block both oral 25(OH)D and calcium absorption. Btw, if mega doses of oral vitamin D have been tried without success, then a vitamin D shot can be used. Also, TH1 production of 1,25(OH)2D has never been shown to exist in the medical literature, without the presence of tissue inflammation, such as sarcoidosis. > > > > > Again - my experience: my kid got higher and higher amounts of D, > but > > > neither his 25D values nor his osteoporosis changed. Now I hope I > > > know why.>> > > > > Is your son diagnosed with CFS or ME? > > > > I remember reading on " his " site years ago that he believes CFS is > > bacterial in origin and he stands by this. He's incorrect about > this. > > > > Nat > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Hi Diane Yes I think the side effects could be a herx in some people. The cathelicin produced from taking vit D really packed a punch for me as an anti-bacterial. The thing is after a few weeks the herx went away and I felt a bit better. Now I can take as much as I want without any reaction but if I stop taking it for a while and then go back on it it can cause a herx again as I believe that in the meantime the bacteria has grown back up. With Lyme I think its important to be aware that after a few weeks exposure to the cathelecidin (produced by the vit D) the lyme bacteria will go into cyst form. You will then not be able to get at the bacteria with antibiotics without taking enzymes first to take the cyst coating off Vitamin D > > > > Hi Ken, > > I stumbled on to this article that says you should not take Vitamin D > supplements. It was written by Trevor Marshall so we have to take it > with a grain of salt. Here's an excerpt from the article: > > " Molecular biology is now forcing us to re-think the idea that a low > measured value of vitamin D means we simply must add more to our > diet. Supplemental vitamin D has been used for decades, and yet the > epidemics of chronic disease, such as heart disease and obesity, are > just getting worse. " > > " Our disease model has shown us why low levels of vitamin D are > observed in association with major and chronic illness, " Marshall > added. " Vitamin D is a secosteroid hormone, and the body regulates > the production of all it needs. In fact, the use of supplements can > be harmful, because they suppress the immune system so that the body > cannot fight disease and infection effectively. " > > Here's the link to the complete article: > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080125223302.htm > > I am on Valcyte but want to add another protocol. I'm considering > the FWIW protocol but got concerned about the Vitamin D.... > > Please tell me what you think about this article. > > Sincerely, Jody > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Vitamin K is also needed to reverse osteoporosis. Vit D alone may not be sufficient Re: Vitamin D The inability of oral 25(OH)D to increase serum 25(OH)D levels, and the presence of osteoporosis in a child, might very likely be due to a malabsorption problem. Even in people with sarcoidosis who have confirmed TH1 1,25(OH)2D production, giving them 25(OH)D will cause their 25(OH)D levels to rise. Has celiac disease been tested for? This is a common cause of low 25(OH)D and osteoporosis in children, as it would block both oral 25(OH)D and calcium absorption. Btw, if mega doses of oral vitamin D have been tried without success, then a vitamin D shot can be used. Also, TH1 production of 1,25(OH)2D has never been shown to exist in the medical literature, without the presence of tissue inflammation, such as sarcoidosis. > > > > > Again - my experience: my kid got higher and higher amounts of D, > but > > > neither his 25D values nor his osteoporosis changed. Now I hope I > > > know why.>> > > > > Is your son diagnosed with CFS or ME? > > > > I remember reading on " his " site years ago that he believes CFS is > > bacterial in origin and he stands by this. He's incorrect about > this. > > > > Nat > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 In common osteoporosis, yes vitamin D is only one of many risk factors, and vitamin K is another. However, apparently this is especially true in undiagnosed celiac, as deficiencies of both vitamins are known to occur. > > > > > > > Again - my experience: my kid got higher and higher amounts of > D, > > but > > > > neither his 25D values nor his osteoporosis changed. Now I hope > I > > > > know why.>> > > > > > > Is your son diagnosed with CFS or ME? > > > > > > I remember reading on " his " site years ago that he believes CFS > is > > > bacterial in origin and he stands by this. He's incorrect about > > this. > > > > > > Nat > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 I was treated for lyme, taking Lumbrokinase while taking an herbal anti viral, , Ketek, Diflucan, and Flagyl all for 4 months. All at the same time. After a short time, retested for lyme and titres were down. Was told lyme was OK now. I continue to take Vit. D however because of the reactivation of EBV last summer, figuring I needed it. I have not continued to take the Gamma Globulin though. I wearied giving myself the IM injection. And seem to be doing OK without it. I am however having an allergic reaction to something, ?environmental perhaps sneezed a lot yesterday, and today woke feeling once again like a truck ran over me. Hopeful it won't last long. I am curious if you would know what might precipitate a reactivation of the lyme...I presume the potential is there. Would prefer to avaoid it if possible. Diane in MI Vitamin D > > > > Hi Ken, > > I stumbled on to this article that says you should not take Vitamin D > supplements. It was written by Trevor Marshall so we have to take it > with a grain of salt. Here's an excerpt from the article: > > " Molecular biology is now forcing us to re-think the idea that a low > measured value of vitamin D means we simply must add more to our > diet. Supplemental vitamin D has been used for decades, and yet the > epidemics of chronic disease, such as heart disease and obesity, are > just getting worse. " > > " Our disease model has shown us why low levels of vitamin D are > observed in association with major and chronic illness, " Marshall > added. " Vitamin D is a secosteroid hormone, and the body regulates > the production of all it needs. In fact, the use of supplements can > be harmful, because they suppress the immune system so that the body > cannot fight disease and infection effectively. " > > Here's the link to the complete article: > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080125223302.htm > > I am on Valcyte but want to add another protocol. I'm considering > the FWIW protocol but got concerned about the Vitamin D.... > > Please tell me what you think about this article. > > Sincerely, Jody > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 But doesn't Vit K raise possibility of strokes and heart attacks since it makes blood clot more likely? Do you have a reference on the osteoporosis connection? Edgar On Feb 3, 2008, at 5:39 PM, wrote: > Vitamin K is also needed to reverse osteoporosis. Vit D alone may > not be sufficient > > > > Re: Vitamin D > > The inability of oral 25(OH)D to increase serum 25(OH)D levels, and > the presence of osteoporosis in a child, might very likely be due to > a malabsorption problem. Even in people with sarcoidosis who have > confirmed TH1 1,25(OH)2D production, giving them 25(OH)D will cause > their 25(OH)D levels to rise. Has celiac disease been tested for? > This is a common cause of low 25(OH)D and osteoporosis in children, > as it would block both oral 25(OH)D and calcium absorption. > > Btw, if mega doses of oral vitamin D have been tried without success, > then a vitamin D shot can be used. > > Also, TH1 production of 1,25(OH)2D has never been shown to exist in > the medical literature, without the presence of tissue inflammation, > such as sarcoidosis. > > > > > > > > > Again - my experience: my kid got higher and higher amounts of > D, > > but > > > > neither his 25D values nor his osteoporosis changed. Now I hope > I > > > > know why.>> > > > > > > Is your son diagnosed with CFS or ME? > > > > > > I remember reading on " his " site years ago that he believes CFS > is > > > bacterial in origin and he stands by this. He's incorrect about > > this. > > > > > > Nat > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > But doesn't Vit K raise possibility of strokes and heart attacks > since it makes blood clot more likely? If you're eating lots of dark green leafy vegetables, you should have enough Vit K. I personally would not supplement K. Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 I'm puzzled how vitamin D could actually make much of a difference in fighting chronic lyme. Cathelicidin is part of the first line defense in the immune system, and is mainly produced in epithelial tissues. If lyme is hiding in deep tissues and the nervous system, I don't think vitamin D would have any effect. The production of cathelicidin by vitamin D is also dependent on stimulation by TLR2. Such stimulation would then cause obvious inflammation, which is seen in acute lyme, but I didn't think that is found in chronic lyme. - Mark > > I can tell you my NP said not to take Vit D because it's hard on > the liver. > > Instead she wants me to get more sun. I live in New Mexico. I > really can't > > get anymore than I do in my mind.. So I supplement with about > 2000mg per > > day. > > > > > > > > Wendi Carrillo > > > > > > > > From: > > [mailto: ] On Behalf Of > > jocelynakajodyjohnson > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:52 AM > > > > Subject: Vitamin D > > > > > > > > Hi Ken, > > > > I stumbled on to this article that says you should not take Vitamin > D > > supplements. It was written by Trevor Marshall so we have to take > it > > with a grain of salt. Here's an excerpt from the article: > > > > " Molecular biology is now forcing us to re-think the idea that a > low > > measured value of vitamin D means we simply must add more to our > > diet. Supplemental vitamin D has been used for decades, and yet the > > epidemics of chronic disease, such as heart disease and obesity, > are > > just getting worse. " > > > > " Our disease model has shown us why low levels of vitamin D are > > observed in association with major and chronic illness, " Marshall > > added. " Vitamin D is a secosteroid hormone, and the body regulates > > the production of all it needs. In fact, the use of supplements can > > be harmful, because they suppress the immune system so that the > body > > cannot fight disease and infection effectively. " > > > > Here's the link to the complete article: > > > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080125223302.htm > > > > I am on Valcyte but want to add another protocol. I'm considering > > the FWIW protocol but got concerned about the Vitamin D.... > > > > Please tell me what you think about this article. > > > > Sincerely, Jody > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 What type of enzymes are best. Can you provide any other details or further references where I can learn more. Thanks in advance. With Lyme I think its important to be aware that after a few weeks exposure to the cathelecidin (produced by the vit D) the lyme bacteria will go into cyst form. You will then not be able to get at the bacteria with antibiotics without taking enzymes first to take the cyst coating off > > > > >Messages in this topic (78) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Database | Polls | Members This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Change settings via the Web ( ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity a.. 8New Members Visit Your Group Health Early Detection Know the symptoms of breast cancer. Meditation and Lovingkindness A Group to share and learn. Ads on Learn more now. Reach customers searching for you. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Thanks for the reference to your page. The opinions and data there are what I hope for when discussing an issue in this forum. To the point: I will reread it in the next few days, to be able to comment more intelligently. A few comments for now: - does 25D (an 1,25 without, I think, the hydroxy) block the VDR? this is a molecular biology question, so I'd consider a molecular biologist's view to carry weight here. Are there works to the contrary? - regarding my kid – Celiac was absolutely ruled out, using three different methods. Gets a lot of Calcium. Does not seem to have Calcium absorption issue per the tests. Again – thanks for the suggestions. - the main issue – how can there be very high values of 1,25 + low values of 25 + low PTH (and I am aware of the different ranges in children) without ecto productions of 1,25D? and if there is such ecto production – does it have to be sarc? I have seen to many examples with this combination. - I am accompanying this post with a private email, detailing some results in my family. You may find it interesting. > > > > > > > Again - my experience: my kid got higher and higher amounts of > D, > > but > > > > neither his 25D values nor his osteoporosis changed. Now I hope > I > > > > know why.>> > > > > > > Is your son diagnosed with CFS or ME? > > > > > > I remember reading on " his " site years ago that he believes CFS > is > > > bacterial in origin and he stands by this. He's incorrect about > > this. > > > > > > Nat > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Any plant enzymes seem to work for me (bromelain on its own is fine or a mixture of plant enzymes is ok). They need to be taken on an empty stomach throughout the day and I need a total of about 6 capsules in a day. I can't give you any links for information about this as its more of a discovery I have made myself through experimentation - though the use of enzymes in lyme to attack the cyst form is reported by some LLMDs and I believe there are some references to it on the web Re: Re: Vitamin D What type of enzymes are best. Can you provide any other details or further references where I can learn more. Thanks in advance. With Lyme I think its important to be aware that after a few weeks exposure to the cathelecidin (produced by the vit D) the lyme bacteria will go into cyst form. You will then not be able to get at the bacteria with antibiotics without taking enzymes first to take the cyst coating off > > > > >Messages in this topic (78) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Database | Polls | Members This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Change settings via the Web ( ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity a.. 8New Members Visit Your Group Health Early Detection Know the symptoms of breast cancer. Meditation and Lovingkindness A Group to share and learn. Ads on Learn more now. Reach customers searching for you. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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