Re: New to group - weight gain on CO

[Guest guest]

Liz, the ketogenic diet is only 500 calories; essentially real caloric

restriction. People who won't do that kind of restriction can increase ketones

readily with MCT oil.

Inulin has .4 to zero carbs, so you can use it in a low-carb diet.

A 90% vegetarian diet should include undenatured whey every day. For what it's

worth here's an old Life Extension article on whey and weight loss:

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/mar2006_report_whey_01.htm

Whey with a carb-restricting anti-candida diet and MCT oil will get you there.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Hi Duncan,

>

> Thanks for this info, tonight i'm going to spend some time on your website

reading the various articles and info on dysbiosis. I can postpone the

vegetarian diet, but ultimately my plan is to be about 90% vegetarian, still

eating fish regularly, eggs, and organic meats now and then. What do you think

of the ketogenic diet Dee recommended? Would I combine that with the inulin

etc.? I am finally in a mind-set where I know that I will and can follow any

plan - i've just reached that point. : )

>

> I really appreciate the help here!

> Liz

[Guest guest]

Liz, animal protein is better by far than plant protein. It is less locked up

and more easily assimilable than plant protein, and in its pure form whey

protein has twice the biological value as soy or any other plant protein. In

fact body builders who switched to plant protein from eggs or whey started to

lose lean muscle mass right away, and body builders use whey to put on lean

tissue. Whey protein, not plant protein, is indicated for wasting from AIDS or

cancer in the Physicians Desk Reference for Prescription Drugs because it can

smaintain lean mass where plant protein fails.

It's a big mistake to lump whey in with " cow dairy " , which has negative

connotations that whey does not.

all good,

Duncan

> > > My conclusion is that people CAN be healthy on any " diet " --

> >

> > Not really... you can't be healthy on a diet of potato chips and coke.

> >

> >

> >

> > > the common element in both vegan and paleo diets is that they stress

> > > lots of veggies, fresh food, non processed etc.

> >

> > Paleo is mostly animal proteins... the veggies are mostly incidental.

> >

> > > Any American who starts eating more fresh organic veggies and meats,

> > > cutting out boxed foods and additives, is going to lose weight most

> > > likely and improve their health. even the China Study said that the

> > > people studied did eat meat, just not the pounds of it that we do

> > > over here - that much animal protein isn't necessary to be healthy or

> > > strong (look at the buffalo, what do they eat? grass).

> >

> > False analogy. People are not buffalos. Cows (buffalos included) have

> > two stomachs and are designed to digest grasses... we aren't.

> >

> > The bottom line is, the vast majority of people need lots of high

> > quality animal protein (including organ meats, bone broths, etc) to

> > thrive, and most vegetarians/vegans slowly wither away health wise

> > unless/until they learn the error of their ways.

> >

> > Maybe - MAYBE it is possible to thrive without eating animal proteins,

> > but the effort and expense are far beyond the average - or even above

> > average - person.

> >

> > I love animals too, but you are wrong about not being able to find

> > vendors other than Kosher (or whatever) that raise healthy meats and

> > process it humanely. Give your business to them - if enough people did

> > this, the big boys would be forced to conform.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Liz, I covered your question on relative protein types a couple of posts ago,

but wording it another way, the biological value (BV) of a protein is the

measurement of how easy the protein is to assimilate. Undenatured whey is twice

as easy to assimilate as lean meat or plant protein and has the highest

biological value of any protein. As you go down the scale there is more acidity

created as the body breaks down the protein and releases the nitrogen into uric

acid. Plant protein is net acidic to the body while whey protein is net alkaline

with its higher BV. Body builders lost weight on soy protein in the whey vs. soy

protein research but some vegan body builders can be athletes if they know what

they are doing. Seems most don't though because they aren't getting their

glutathione precursors, which are in undenatured whey and not in their other

foods without supplementing specific amino acids.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Are you really trying to say that it's harder for a human to break down

vegetable proteins than red meat? I think most people generally have a harder

time after a steak than after a plate of greens and brown rice : ). Generally,

it's the insoluble fiber that we can't break down in vegetables, not the

protein. Grain proteins like gluten, or casein in cow's milk, ...those are also

hard proteins to break down in their current form. Soy protein would be another

protein that is also difficult for many.

>

> The mct's in CO are saturated fats, but I agree we need the fats found in fish

and eggs too. I think we can safely and very healthily survive on fish, eggs,

vegetables and fruits, nuts and seeds,and limited grains and legumes without

eating any red meat or chicken etc. But, i don't at all think it's necessary or

" best " to avoid all meat, just that it can be done in a healthy way if a person

is smart about it.

>

> The one thing I've learned over these years of studying nutrition, is that

information and understanding is constantly evolving and changing, so I don't

hang my hat on any one paradigm other than that we should eat REAL FOOD without

harmful chemicals and not processed to death!

>

[Guest guest]

I found that Source Naturals has an organic whey (concentrate) that has nothing

added at all - have you heard of it?

I tend to stay away from the powder proteins due to the isolates having an

MSG/glutamate action in the brain and I have a big problem with this.

Blaylock (neurosurgeon author of " Excitotoxins " mentions that whey protein

concentrate MAY contain MSG. what do you think of this? I guess I can try it

and see what happens. I do believe the studies that say how beneficial it is, I

just also don't like how processed it has to be in order to get this powder, ya

know?

I think I can do a ketogenic diet, at least I can do pretty well...I'm not sure

how low to go on carbs when it comes to things like sweet potatoes or chick peas

etc....if we're talking about NONE for a month, ok. But if we're talking about

none for 2months or more, I don't really think that would be a healthy way to

go. But I get that I somehow need to get my thyroid to work properly and

drastic action might be the trick.

Is the NOW brand the inulin that you recommend?

thanks again,

Liz

> >

> > Hi Duncan,

> >

> > Thanks for this info, tonight i'm going to spend some time on your website

reading the various articles and info on dysbiosis. I can postpone the

vegetarian diet, but ultimately my plan is to be about 90% vegetarian, still

eating fish regularly, eggs, and organic meats now and then. What do you think

of the ketogenic diet Dee recommended? Would I combine that with the inulin

etc.? I am finally in a mind-set where I know that I will and can follow any

plan - i've just reached that point. : )

> >

> > I really appreciate the help here!

> > Liz

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dee,

Thanks for the info. So on this plan you basically have NO rice, potatoes, or

other grains, and don't include ANY complex carbs either? What about fruit?

Yogurt also does have carbs, but that's ok? I'll look at the webite you sent.

I will look into the MCT oil also, but if I can do the ketogenic diet for a bit

with the CO i'd prefer that. Are avocados ok?

I'm on day 3 of very low carbs generally, but need another week to really plan

my meals for this type of diet and go shopping etc.

With the ketostix then, if you notice your ketones are getting too high, you eat

more carbs I take it?

thanks,

Liz

> >

> > Hi Dee,

> >

> > Wow, well I'm going to think about this...is there a good website you

recommend for info on the Ketogenic diet? How long would I need to do it for,

just until I lose the weight? Is it likely to stress my adrenals/thyroid or

will it somehow reverse the problem there? How many carbs would be enough for

one day on this plan, and would I still use coc oil or rather MCT oil as Duncan

recommended?

> >

> > thanks,

> > Liz

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan, that is simply NOT true. Atkins diet was one of the first (if not THE

first ketogenic diet and there was NO restriction on calories. Following that

diet would provide much more than 500 calories. Are you referring to the HCG

diet - which requires the HGC drops in order to work? When one is on a

ketogenic diet counting calories is not necessary. There is just so much

protein/fat one can eat to feel full.

Dee

>

>

> Liz, the ketogenic diet is only 500 calories; essentially real caloric

restriction. People who won't do that kind of restriction can increase ketones

readily with MCT oil.

>

[Guest guest]

Liz, glutamate values are very low in whey isolates and concentrates that have

not been " hydrolyzed " . Glutamic acid is the form of glutamine in whey. Glutamic

acid, glutamine peptides, and free-form glutamine are good for you.

You can buy undenatured whey that is simply a spray-dried unflavoured whey

concentrate if you want to eschew excess processing and additives.

You can't do a ketogenic diet with carb meals, sorry, including chick peas.

Yup, Now brand inulin is fine. I think your thyroid and adrenals will be fine

once you control the dysbiosis.

all good,

Duncan

> > >

> > > Hi Duncan,

> > >

> > > Thanks for this info, tonight i'm going to spend some time on your website

reading the various articles and info on dysbiosis. I can postpone the

vegetarian diet, but ultimately my plan is to be about 90% vegetarian, still

eating fish regularly, eggs, and organic meats now and then. What do you think

of the ketogenic diet Dee recommended? Would I combine that with the inulin

etc.? I am finally in a mind-set where I know that I will and can follow any

plan - i've just reached that point. : )

> > >

> > > I really appreciate the help here!

> > > Liz

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I can concede that animal protein normally should be better assimilated if

you're actively needing to build muscle mass or are an athlete, but most animal

sources now are so contaminated that you really have to be very picky on what

you buy. And I personally do not digest red meat well at all, but that could be

just me (and the many others who complain of this issue).

If I didn't have a casein problem due to the celiac disease damage, i'd drink

raw cow's milk, no problem. I've found that I do ok w/ goat cheese and

yogurt/milk (just expensive!!), so I eat those a few times a week.

Liz

> > > > My conclusion is that people CAN be healthy on any " diet " --

> > >

> > > Not really... you can't be healthy on a diet of potato chips and coke.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > the common element in both vegan and paleo diets is that they stress

> > > > lots of veggies, fresh food, non processed etc.

> > >

> > > Paleo is mostly animal proteins... the veggies are mostly incidental.

> > >

> > > > Any American who starts eating more fresh organic veggies and meats,

> > > > cutting out boxed foods and additives, is going to lose weight most

> > > > likely and improve their health. even the China Study said that the

> > > > people studied did eat meat, just not the pounds of it that we do

> > > > over here - that much animal protein isn't necessary to be healthy or

> > > > strong (look at the buffalo, what do they eat? grass).

> > >

> > > False analogy. People are not buffalos. Cows (buffalos included) have

> > > two stomachs and are designed to digest grasses... we aren't.

> > >

> > > The bottom line is, the vast majority of people need lots of high

> > > quality animal protein (including organ meats, bone broths, etc) to

> > > thrive, and most vegetarians/vegans slowly wither away health wise

> > > unless/until they learn the error of their ways.

> > >

> > > Maybe - MAYBE it is possible to thrive without eating animal proteins,

> > > but the effort and expense are far beyond the average - or even above

> > > average - person.

> > >

> > > I love animals too, but you are wrong about not being able to find

> > > vendors other than Kosher (or whatever) that raise healthy meats and

> > > process it humanely. Give your business to them - if enough people did

> > > this, the big boys would be forced to conform.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dee, the Atkins book I have actually restricts carbs and calories by virtue of

advocating protein, fat, and low-carb veggies. Even so, if you went into ketosis

on it it would probably be accidental. I like Atkins' approach but I like Brad

Kings Fat Wars approach more. It does not deliberately put you into ketosis

either.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Duncan, that is simply NOT true. Atkins diet was one of the first (if not THE

first ketogenic diet and there was NO restriction on calories. Following that

diet would provide much more than 500 calories. Are you referring to the HCG

diet - which requires the HGC drops in order to work? When one is on a

ketogenic diet counting calories is not necessary. There is just so much

protein/fat one can eat to feel full.

>

> Dee

>

[Guest guest]

It's against my beliefs to eat blood, so going raw is not in the cards for me.

I personally do have problems with casein (also have celiac), but if it weren't

for that i'd have no problem w/ raw or organic milk products. I do ok w/ Goat's

milk products.

> > Are you really trying to say that it's harder for a human to break

> > down vegetable proteins than red meat?

>

> Yes - as long as the meat isn't totally destroyed by overcooking. They

> should be eaten as close to raw as possible... I tend to cook mine for

> only a minute or two per side, so it is effectively 95+% raw...

>

> > I think most people generally have a harder time after a steak than

> > after a plate of greens and brown rice

>

> You would be mistaken.

>

> > Generally, it's the insoluble fiber that we can't break down in

> > vegetables, not the protein.

>

> Veggies protein content by weight is tiny compared to meats.

>

> > Grain proteins like gluten, or casein in cow's milk, ...those are

> > also hard proteins to break down in their current form.

>

> Casein can be problematic for some, but I'm not a big milk advocate (raw

> cream and butter is an exception, they are very healthy, unless you have

> an allergy or something).

>

> Generally agree with the rest...

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

Yes, you can have SOME fruit - just don't overdo. Stay away from fruit JUICE,

however. Grapefruit is great, as are some strawberries and blueberries. Greek

yogurt is great because 1/2 cup has twice as much protein as a cup of regular

and only 5 carbs. I make smoothies with 1/2 cup greek yogurt plus berries and

coconut milk (no sugar added). As I said, use the Ketostix and once in ketosis

you can experiment with adding a few complex carbs back and see if that takes

you out of ketosis. As long as you are still in you're ok. And you DON'T have to

count calories. If you just want a simple diet to follow the Idiot Proof Diet

works very well:

http://www.everydiet.org/diet/idiot-proof-diet

Another thing that works for me is 5-6 small meals rather than 3 larger ones.

Dee

> > >

> > > Hi Dee,

> > >

> > > Wow, well I'm going to think about this...is there a good website you

recommend for info on the Ketogenic diet? How long would I need to do it for,

just until I lose the weight? Is it likely to stress my adrenals/thyroid or

will it somehow reverse the problem there? How many carbs would be enough for

one day on this plan, and would I still use coc oil or rather MCT oil as Duncan

recommended?

> > >

> > > thanks,

> > > Liz

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Ok thanks. So, the idea with this is to kick your body into fat-burning

mode...then once you're down to more normal weight, re-introduce some complex

carbs, but stick w/low carb generally. Does this " heal " the thyroid/adrenals?

Have people been able to go off and stay off of thyroid and adrenal meds using

this approach?

> > > >

> > > > Hi Dee,

> > > >

> > > > Wow, well I'm going to think about this...is there a good website you

recommend for info on the Ketogenic diet? How long would I need to do it for,

just until I lose the weight? Is it likely to stress my adrenals/thyroid or

will it somehow reverse the problem there? How many carbs would be enough for

one day on this plan, and would I still use coc oil or rather MCT oil as Duncan

recommended?

> > > >

> > > > thanks,

> > > > Liz

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Liz, whey protein is better assimilated by everybody, not just athletes, because

it is absorbed almost without digestion, unlike meat or even eggs, which is the

top non-whey protein. Undenatured whey is hundreds of times better than raw cows

milk. It's in all the best diets today for good reason. Cheese, goat cheese,

yogurt, milk, meat and plant protein do not provide the benefit of producing

glutathione, the body's most potent healing agent.

I buy New Zealand whey protein, which is among the least contaminated animal

protein on the planet.

You should be picky on food selection I agree, but the worst pollutant of all,

radiation, is on everything in North America and always will be. Don't buy

produce from Japan or the Pacific

all good,

Duncan

>

> I can concede that animal protein normally should be better assimilated if

you're actively needing to build muscle mass or are an athlete, but most animal

sources now are so contaminated that you really have to be very picky on what

you buy. And I personally do not digest red meat well at all, but that could be

just me (and the many others who complain of this issue).

>

> If I didn't have a casein problem due to the celiac disease damage, i'd drink

raw cow's milk, no problem. I've found that I do ok w/ goat cheese and

yogurt/milk (just expensive!!), so I eat those a few times a week.

>

> Liz

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan, no matter how you want to slice it, Atkins does not restrict the diet to

500 calories as you claimed; and with all due respect, if you don't have a

history weight problems I don't consider you qualified to make a selection based

on what you have read. Also, I don't understand why you are now against ketosis

when earlier on you were touting it's benefits for altzheimers.

Dee

> >

> > Duncan, that is simply NOT true. Atkins diet was one of the first (if not

THE first ketogenic diet and there was NO restriction on calories. Following

that diet would provide much more than 500 calories. Are you referring to the

HCG diet - which requires the HGC drops in order to work? When one is on a

ketogenic diet counting calories is not necessary. There is just so much

protein/fat one can eat to feel full.

> >

> > Dee

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Liz, undenatured whey doesn't negatively affect celiac disease, and it is

soothing to the gut lining due to its antioxidant, toxin-reducing, and

pathogenic bacteria-reducing properties. That's why it's a chief food for people

with bowel issues generally.

all good,

Duncna

>

> It's against my beliefs to eat blood, so going raw is not in the cards for me.

>

> I personally do have problems with casein (also have celiac), but if it

weren't for that i'd have no problem w/ raw or organic milk products. I do ok

w/ Goat's milk products.

>

[Guest guest]

Liz, healing thyroid/adrenals is much more complicated than a weight loss diet.

Everyone is different. For some it can be low iron (another reason not to go on

a vegetarian diet!) , but as far as I can tell there is no simple quick fix.

Coconut oil is thought to help in that regard, however, which is why you want to

get yourself into a fat burning mode in order to be able to utilize it.

Dee

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi Dee,

> > > > >

> > > > > Wow, well I'm going to think about this...is there a good website you

recommend for info on the Ketogenic diet? How long would I need to do it for,

just until I lose the weight? Is it likely to stress my adrenals/thyroid or

will it somehow reverse the problem there? How many carbs would be enough for

one day on this plan, and would I still use coc oil or rather MCT oil as Duncan

recommended?

> > > > >

> > > > > thanks,

> > > > > Liz

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Not overdoing sweet foods is always a good idea because it offers less sugar to

the affliction of candida/dysbiosis. I've addressed that bowel issue underlying

this thread and I think Dee can't be treating candida with her information; what

she suggests actually contradicts the approach of an anti-candida diet.

Those who are afflicted with candida/dysbiosis have to avoid all sweet foods or

they will experience a setback; even small infractions can cause a setback and a

couple of weeks work. I know the work, partly from a nine-year membership in the

candidiasis list.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Hi Liz,

>

> Yes, you can have SOME fruit - just don't overdo. Stay away from fruit JUICE,

however. Grapefruit is great, as are some strawberries and blueberries. Greek

yogurt is great because 1/2 cup has twice as much protein as a cup of regular

and only 5 carbs. I make smoothies with 1/2 cup greek yogurt plus berries and

coconut milk (no sugar added). As I said, use the Ketostix and once in ketosis

you can experiment with adding a few complex carbs back and see if that takes

you out of ketosis. As long as you are still in you're ok. And you DON'T have to

count calories. If you just want a simple diet to follow the Idiot Proof Diet

works very well:

> http://www.everydiet.org/diet/idiot-proof-diet

>

> Another thing that works for me is 5-6 small meals rather than 3 larger ones.

>

> Dee

>

[Guest guest]

When I talk about plant vs animal protein, i'm not really talking about whey,

since I know that is a separated out dairy protein...but more in comparing

eating real foods, meat/beef versus vegetables, and how my body digests them.

But anyway, I am going to try the whey, and I hear you on the radiation issue,

yikes! Do you mind sharing who you buy your Whey from ? I'll support New

Zealand anytime...i've been there twice since I used to live in Singapore, and

it's the most beautiful country on earth.

Liz

> >

> > I can concede that animal protein normally should be better assimilated if

you're actively needing to build muscle mass or are an athlete, but most animal

sources now are so contaminated that you really have to be very picky on what

you buy. And I personally do not digest red meat well at all, but that could be

just me (and the many others who complain of this issue).

> >

> > If I didn't have a casein problem due to the celiac disease damage, i'd

drink raw cow's milk, no problem. I've found that I do ok w/ goat cheese and

yogurt/milk (just expensive!!), so I eat those a few times a week.

> >

> > Liz

> >

>

[Guest guest]

On 2011-09-14 12:28 PM, lizz7711 <lizz7711@...> wrote:

> I found that Source Naturals has an organic whey (concentrate) that has

> nothing added at all - have you heard of it?

You should be looking for a high quality whey ISOLATE, not

CONCENTRATE... two very different things...

[Guest guest]

On 2011-09-14 12:34 PM, Dolores <dgk@...> wrote:

> In Coconut Oil " Duncan Crow " wrote:

>> Liz, the ketogenic diet is only 500 calories; essentially real

>> caloric restriction. People who won't do that kind of restriction can

>> increase ketones readily with MCT oil.

> Duncan, that is simply NOT true.

A quick google says otherwise...

[Guest guest]

The experience of many others as well as my own however is that an anti-candida

diet with inulin is indeed a weight loss diet that allows the thyroid and

adrenals to " heal " , if you like that word, or otherwise recover normal function.

There really isn't much more to it and the reliability of the approach speaks

for itself.

This article explains Functional Hypothyroidism and Dysbiosis, and Adrenal

Stress Syndrome and GI Dysfunction:

<http://www.whatishealing.com/ArticlesPDF/GI%20Function.pdf>

Note the paper also mentions oxidative stress and inflammation, both of which

are handled by the whey and selenium in the protocol and the latter also handled

by metabolic enzymes such as BlockBuster AllClear.

The paper also mentiones B12 Deficient Anemia and GI Dysfunction, which would be

of interest to anyone thinking about being a vegetarian.

There are lots of other edifying articles online along these lines; this one

points out elevated dysbiosis reduces thyroid and elevates adrenaline:

<http://www.becomehealthynow.com/mira2_front/attachment.php?attachmentid=57>

This Gooogle search reveals much about adrenal fatigue and dysbiosis/candida

without even using the candida keyword:

<http://www.google.ca/search?q=%22adrenal+fatigue%22+toxin+dysbiosis+OR+dysfunct\

ion+bowel+OR+intestinal & btnG=Search>

The chief fiber to improve bowel ecology and reduce toxin load is inulin. Many

times we had to also increase stomach acidity in order to better assimilate some

of the minerals and also reduce the number of live pathogenic bacteria that have

been swallowed, especially in people over 60 years of age.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Liz, healing thyroid/adrenals is much more complicated than a weight loss

diet. Everyone is different. For some it can be low iron (another reason not to

go on a vegetarian diet!) , but as far as I can tell there is no simple quick

fix. Coconut oil is thought to help in that regard, however, which is why you

want to get yourself into a fat burning mode in order to be able to utilize it.

>

> Dee

>

[Guest guest]

On 2011-09-14 12:42 PM, lizz7711 <lizz7711@...> wrote:

> but most animal sources now are so contaminated that you really have to

> be very picky on what you buy. And I personally do not digest red meat

> well at all, but that could be just me (and the many others who complain

> of this issue).

Please stop ignoring the fact that I (and anyone who advocates the high

protein/high fat animal based diet) have repeatedly pointed out that you

should obviously eat *only* *high* *quality* products that are *free* of

all of the contaminants you keep writing about.

[Guest guest]

I think I can take the best from what you both have said - do the whey, inulin,

selenium,probiotics, low sugar/low carb plan - use some CO but also try the MCT

oil, and eat a higher protein/high fat diet, hopefully this will help w/ gut

issues (I don't have constipation, but do think I have candida and leaky gut) as

well as thyroid etc. I have alot of brain fog and memory issues myself as well.

After 3 days of much lower carbs, I already feel a bit better, not so " heavy "

feeling.

I will have to buy/order a few things, so won't be able to fully start this till

next week. I really appreciate all the help from everyone!

Liz

> >

> > Hi Liz,

> >

> > Yes, you can have SOME fruit - just don't overdo. Stay away from fruit

JUICE, however. Grapefruit is great, as are some strawberries and blueberries.

Greek yogurt is great because 1/2 cup has twice as much protein as a cup of

regular and only 5 carbs. I make smoothies with 1/2 cup greek yogurt plus

berries and coconut milk (no sugar added). As I said, use the Ketostix and once

in ketosis you can experiment with adding a few complex carbs back and see if

that takes you out of ketosis. As long as you are still in you're ok. And you

DON'T have to count calories. If you just want a simple diet to follow the Idiot

Proof Diet works very well:

> > http://www.everydiet.org/diet/idiot-proof-diet

> >

> > Another thing that works for me is 5-6 small meals rather than 3 larger

ones.

> >

> > Dee

> >

>

[Guest guest]

On 2011-09-14 12:49 PM, lizz7711 <lizz7711@...> wrote:

> It's against my beliefs to eat blood, so going raw is not in the cards

> for me.

Give me a break...

The only way to not eat *any* blood (even incidental blood that exists

in animal flesh) is to charbroil it until it is gone.

[Guest guest]

On 2011-09-14 1:32 PM, Dolores <dgk@...> wrote:

> Duncan, no matter how you want to slice it, Atkins does not restrict the

> diet to 500 calories as you claimed;

He didn't claim that (got bit by the old reading/comprehension bug

again?) - he claimed that about " the ketogenic diet " ...