Question

November 23, 1998

Ann-

I have chosen not to give the Tetanus vaccine either. I believe the link to

getting Tetanus is poor hygeine. On top of that, it is questionable to the

effectiveness of the vaccine, anyway. Anytime you get a deep wound you should

clean it thoroughly and dress it appropriately. (Common sense right?) They

found that soldiers got Tetanus alot from battlewounds etc. with proper

hygeine they saw a definite decline in incidence.

My feeling is that the vaccine might not give immunity anyway, the risk of

some type of reaction is very possible, and exposure to all those other

wonderful ingredients, it is just not worth it.

Robin, RN,BSN,BA

November 23, 1998

We have chosen not to give the Tetanus shot, some parents do this one only!

We felt that my daughter was not at risk since we live in the city and not

in the country around animals. Doing some research on tetanus I found that

there are 1-2 cases a year in Canada, even though most adults do not

revaccinate themselves as adults. Most cases I have found in Canada at

least are usually older men and farmers.

Depending on the situation, in future if my daughter was in a risky

situation where the tetanus shot would be appropriate then we will consider

it then but not now.

P.S. Sorry there has not been alot of mail recently. I was hospitalized

last week and I have been very sick. Baby is fine but mommy is not!!

question

From: or Ann <crossbow@...>

I was just curious since I am new to this non-vaccinating role. Do you

include Tetnus in that as well, or do you get Tetnus shots when exposed to

something that might bring on Tetnus? Would like to know what you all feel

about this, Thanks, Ann

------------------------------------------------------------------------

November 24, 1998

If you don't mind me asking, what were you hospitalized for? I know I'm not

very far behind you in my pregnancy. I'll pray for you and your family that

the pregnancy goes easier for you.

question

>

>From: or Ann <crossbow@...>

>

>I was just curious since I am new to this non-vaccinating role. Do you

>include Tetnus in that as well, or do you get Tetnus shots when exposed to

>something that might bring on Tetnus? Would like to know what you all feel

>about this, Thanks, Ann

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

December 30, 1998

Point taken. Who will do it and where is it happening today. Oh, I know of a

man who does give his cancer cure away free. FDA stops him though. Check

out the CANCELL site. I have personally witnessed a man with lung cancer

completely recover from this free product. They don't even have to pay

postage. Amazing. But it seems the FDA intereferes with that philosophy as

well, even when the product is not a drug and harms nobody.

<A HREF= " http://ralphmoss.com/cancell.html " >cancell.html</A>

Sad isn't it. But all the same, I do not feel an immoral traversity exists

with Dr. Loraine Day selling her video. She could charge you 300 dollars for

an office visit and tell you the same thing or less.

God Bless

Diann

------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 30, 1998

In a message dated 12/30/98 1:52:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Eat2Heal@...

writes:

<< I have seen many suffer and be tortured to death with chemo and radiation

and

I know they could have lived it they just left the poisons alone and built

their immune system.

>>

Amen!

Blessings,

Joan

------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 30, 1998

In a message dated 12/30/98 3:01:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, Eat2Heal@...

writes:

<< We need to support those who do heal, but not at ludicrous prices and we

should never deny anyone who has no funds life saving help. Did you know a

Doctor can lose the AMA license for giving away services and not maintaining

the business protocol. Who is this protecting? >>

Thankyou Diann,

Not only is it expensive to maintain a profession and a professional

business, but as long as we are in the physical body residing on this planet,

money is the common means of exchange for all of our essentials. There is

nothing greedy about this requirement of exchange. It is thoughtless of

others to give healing so little value to think it unworthy of monetary

exchange.

Warmest regards,

Joan

------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 30, 1998

In a message dated 12/30/98 3:47:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,

.Copits@... writes:

<< I feel that it is morally wrong for ANYONE (allopaths, hospitals, witch

doctors, faith healers) to sell anything that is lifesaving. >>

Hello,

So, therefore, anyone who saves lives should go without.

Warmest regards,

Joan

------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 30, 1998

Where do some of the stats (2/4% effective!) come from? All the cancer books

and resources I read give anywhere from 40-85% for 5 yr. survival rates with

either chemo

and/or raditation for most types of cancer. Breast cancer is particularly

coming along much better with early detection and the new herceptron added to

the 3 age-old therapies. No great studies of alternatives can claim that as far

as I know. Some regimens work for almost anyone with any type, but not in large

nos. do the studies exist to conclude some of the conclusions being claimed.

Although I'm sure there's truth is the pushing out of competition for such

studies and some money-grubbing pharmaceuticals, I also believe

that too much of that can't exist when investigative reporters abound even in

the health

arena now. Paranoia abounds. So much survival depends on the stage of your

cancer

and many particulars that drive your regimen and survival liklihood. I wouldn't

be too

quick to dismiss it all as one's good or maybe best option.

BC

Annette wrote:

> I feel that I should add to this thread that my husband who is 76 yrs old

> and in robust health, mentally and physically (the only one at the senior

> center not on any medication), is in remission from non-hodgkins lymphoma.

> He was diagnosed 20 yrs ago and treated with chemotherapy. 3 years later it

> returned (was in his abdomen) and he was treated with radiation. He did not

> change his diet to include juicing or any kind of supplementation (other

> than usual vitamins). He is not BTW a junk food eater.

> Just thought I would mention this, as he feels he would be dead by now if he

> had not recieved treatment (tumor was huge and engulfing his intestines).

> -----

> >

> >>

> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >>

> >

> >There is plenty of research to back up many of the alternative cancer

> >therapies. You can find most of it in the Alternative Medicines Definitive

> >Guide to Cancer ISBN 1887299017.

> >

> >Of course when you find out the effectiveness of the orthodox therapies you

> >will be surprised---chemo is only " effective " in 2-4% of cancers, the rare

> >ones, and that increases your risk of cancers down the line. 30 years ago

> >one Prof found you lived 4 times longer if you did nothing, over taking the

> >chemo etc. And not a lot has changed in 30 years.

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Animation. English Literature. Mark Twain. Graphic Design. Ballet. Poetry.

> Hundreds of expert human guides to lead you through thousands of topics.

> Explore The Mining Co. http://offers./click/189/0

>

December 30, 1998

They check your immune system before each treatment and you don't proceed unless

your counts are within healthy range. It does compromise your immune system, but

the fact that you got cancer says it wasn't working correctly to begin with. I

think

arsenic whe old cure for syphilis. There are strange ways to cure certain

things,

always

have been. Lots of different chemo regimens and chemicals and some kill more

healthy cells than others. Now there is a more precise chemical (herceptron) for

advanced breast cancer that only searches out and destroys cancer cells, not

healthy cells. Once manufactured liberally, it'll be used for more than just

advance breast cancer (other stages and other types of cancer as well). It's

coming along with many alternative therapies, don't be too quick to totally

dismiss its usefulness to thousands for whom

it has meant survival.

Eat2Heal@... wrote:

> I just wanted to add that yes people do survive Chemo, but yes chemo is a

> poison and people survive the worst therapies. But the bottom line is, chemo

> does not heal, it is a poison and it does harm to the body's immune system.

> The mind (as a man thinks, so is he), and other factors have a part. It does

> not mean Chemo heals. If someone took a sugar pill that did no harm, just

> believing it helps stimulates the immune system. But never, never, does

> destruction of healthly cells contribute to healing. What we think makes a

> big difference. But does it not logical to destroy the very thing that heals

> the body. Yes, people do survive the poisons and the cancer, but how can we

> say poisons heal. If a person survives cancer who did nothing, doing nothing

> does not constitute a form of healing. Is it Common-sense to break down

> the immune system with poisons or would it be better to build the immune

> system? <A HREF= " http://www.drday.com/ " >Dr. Day. Breast Cancer/All Disease

> Cured</A> The immune system is ultimately the healer, and contrary to

> " antiGod " thinking, God designed the body and said He sent His word for our

> healing.

>

> I have seen many suffer and be tortured to death with chemo and radiation and

> I know they could have lived it they just left the poisons alone and built

> their immune system.

>

> I agree with Dr. Loraine Day, M.D., Quoting her video, " Her decision to

> reject these traditional therapies was based on studies in the medical

> literature PROVING the INEFFECTIVENESS of conventional treatment (chemo &

> radiation), and upon the COMMON SENSE conclusions that you cannot destroy your

> immune system and get well at the same time. "

> <A HREF= " http://www.drday.com/ " >Dr. Day. Breast Cancer/All Disease Cured</A>

> Dr. Loraine Day had breast cancer and healed herself without poisons, without

> mutilations and without fear. She tells you how she did it in her video. Her

> video talks about why people get cancer, how you can control whether you get

> sick or stay well and how to avoid cancer at the store, and the truth about

> Cancer being a BIG business with billions a year in America alone, and why a

> cure would hurt BIG Business.

>

> Here are a list of websites I share. Please use common-sense and a little

> research before you discard or take literally. I don't agree with everything,

> but I do know this. The body is designed to heal itself and foods were made

> that work perfectly with the body's cellular design and cells need to be built

> up, not tore down for healing. I know of harmless methods to help the body do

> its job, but I would NEVER use a product that does any damage to any good

> cells.

>

> <A HREF= " http://www.naturalhealthconsult.com/cancer.html " >Natural alternative

> therapies for Cancer</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.mksalaman.com/ " >Nutrition: Maximize Your Life with

> Maureen K...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.baytobay.com/ " >Welcome to Bay to Bay</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.lifewithoutcancer.com/ " >lifewithoutcancer.com home page

> </A><A HREF= " http://www.dodgenet.com/nocancer/ " > " People Against Cancer Home

> Page " </A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.peopleagainstcancer.com/ " >!! " Cancer - People Against

> Cancer,treatment,p...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.naturalhealthconsult.com/Monographs/melatonin.html " >The

> Melatonin Pages. Information about melatonin</A>

> <A HREF= " aol://4344:1679.AHH_TOP.13651277.554874447 " > AltMed: Alternative

> Medical Forum</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.cancermed.com/bri.htm " >Burzynski Research Institute brain

> tumor clin...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.canceranswer.com/ " >apricot seeds and vitamin b17 and

> laetrile cu...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.livelinks.com/sumeria/health/essiac2.html " >More

> Information on Essiac</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.nets.com/hoxsey/hoxsey.html " >Hoxsey - How Healing Becomes

> a Crime</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.ralphmoss.com/index.html " >Ralph Moss Home Page</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.wrf.org/ " >World Research Foundation Home Page</A>

> <A HREF= " http://cancerguide.org/ " >CancerGuide: Steve Dunn's Cancer

> Information ...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.all-natural.com/metabol.html " >The Metabolic Oncolytic

> Regimen</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.healthy.net/library/books/options/Hoxsey.htm " >Hoxsey

> Therapy and Cancer-- HealthWorld Onlin...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.seahorse.com/dragon/catalog/comptinc.htm " >Hoxey Formula

> sold here</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.drday.com/ " >Get the video on how to Cure all Diseases...

> </A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.phillips.com/health.htm " > Publishing

> International, Inc.: Heal...</A>

>

> <A HREF= " http://www.quackwatch.com/00AboutQuackwatch/comments.html#anchor12931

> 0273632 " >Comments from Quackwatch Visitors</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.mlmmasters.com/lifeplus/tytkojr/ " >Life Plus Member Home

> Page</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.grand-strand.com/suebest/index.html " > Best: Cancer

> Free With Alternative Trea...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.grand-strand.com/suebest/714x.htm " >714X - Alternative

> Cancer Treatment</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.grand-strand.com/suebest/boywho.htm " >The Boy Who Ran Away

> >From Chemotherapy</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.bennyhinn.org/9811.asp " >November 98 - The Biblical Road

> to Health</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.newbeginnings.org/ " >Break the Curse of Disease/Mental

> Illness</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.lifewithoutcancer.com/ " >lifewithoutcancer.com home page

> </A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.oasisofhope.com/ " >OASIS Of Hope Hospital Home Page</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www2.state.ga.us/Legis/1997_98/leg/fulltext/hr1172.htm " >HR

> 1172 - Contreras, Dr. Franisco; invite to ...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.oasisofhope.com/testimo.htm " >Testimonies (OASIS Of Hope)

> </A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.oasisofhope.com/ccancare.htm " >Cancer Treatment Center</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.oasisofhope.com/books.htm " >Books and Videos (OASIS Of

> Hope)</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.realityzone.com/ " >Reality Zone Home Page</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.realityzone.com/realityzone/healnut.html " >Health Issues

> </A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.mksalaman.com/ " >Nutrition: Maximize Your Life with

> Maureen K...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.baytobay.com/ " >Welcome to Bay to Bay</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.baytobay.com/books/books.html " >How to get Maureen's Book

> </A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.peopleagainstcancer.com/ " >!! " Cancer - People Against

> Cancer,treatment,p...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.acam.org/ " >American College for Advancement in Medicine

> </A>

> <A HREF= " http://ralphmoss.com/cancell.html " >cancell.html</A>

> <A HREF= " http://hills.ccsf.cc.ca.us:9878/~jinouy01/cancell.html " >Cancell |

> Cantron | Cancer | HIV |</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.best.com/~handpen/Cancell/nathan.htm " >Research on the

> Cancer Treatment Cancell</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.best.com/~handpen/Cancell/cancell.htm " >The Cancell Home

> Page</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.datadepo.com/cures for cancer/main.htm " >Alternative Cancer

> Treatments</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.gerson.org/ " >Gerson Institute - A non-profit organization

> ...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://pweb.netcom.com/~cavictor/index.html " >Cancer Victors,

> Alternative Therapies, Cancer...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://cancercenter.com/ " >Cancer Treatment Centers of America</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.canhelp.com/ " >CANHELP: A cancer treatment referral and

> info...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.y-me.org/ " >Y-ME National Breast Cancer Organization</A>

> <A HREF= " list/cures for cancer/ " >FindMail eGroups.com</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.oxytherapy.com/ " >Oxytherapy.com - Oxygen & Ozone

> Therapies - M...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.citizens.org/ " >Citizens For Health - Defending Your Right

> to...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.oxytherapy.com/whatsnew/intlhlth.html " >International

> Health Claim Surf Day</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.oxytherapy.com/whatsnew/targeted.html " >Oxytherapy.com -

> Targeted</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.ftc.gov/ " >Federal Trade Commission Home Page</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.o3zone.com/ozoneser/articles/032.htm " >Ozone Services

> Articles - 81% Growth in Canad...</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.js-net.com/ahw/ " >Arrowhead HealthWorks Home Page</A>

> <A HREF= " http://www.o3zone.com/smith/index.htm " > </A>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Animation. English Literature. Mark Twain. Graphic Design. Ballet. Poetry.

> Hundreds of expert human guides to lead you through thousands of topics.

> Explore The Mining Co. http://offers./click/189/0

>

December 30, 1998

I see you live in Michigan. The Karmanos Clinic, U of M. and, where I go, St.

Joe's

Canmcer Care Clinic (Ann Arbor) all provide stats. It does get complicated and

if you have an advanced stage, they may be reluctant to supply low survival

rates as it'll affect

your hopefulness which is important to the actual survival. However, Borders

books

has a whole section on cancer books and there are stats that can help you in

those books,some specifically on breast cancer and different regimens for

different stages.

However, like your doc says, each case really is unique. Like I have ovarian,

stage 2-c

but an endometrial mass which was braised was involved as well; all these

specifics do make a difference along with one's age (younger tends to be

heartier). So much is involved with you finding meaning in the disease to

address it in a multi-faceted way (physical, nutrition and

emotional/psychological). Read Caroline Myss's " Why People don't heal and how

they can " . Good luck.

wrote:

> At 11:19 PM 12/29/98 EST, you wrote:

> >Hi ,

> > I'm new to the list also and really can't accurately answer your question.

> >

> > However, I am a person that (recovered ???) from a rare disease, and I know

> >that when I was at my worst, I would have tried anything, because their was

NO

> >known treatments.

> >

> > I guess many types Cancer could be put into this category, yes they have

> >made remarkable improvements, but I don't believe they have what I would call

> >a cure, Plus, if we wait on the FDA to approve protocols that have worked,

but

> >they haven't taken the their required 15 years ( Exaggerated) LOL, to approve

> >it.

> >

> > But I have heard of people getting better from unconventional remedies.

> >

> > Later,

> >

> My wife has breast cancer and just had her third chemo treatment. When trying

to get statistical info on the effectiveness of the tratment, I ran into a brick

wall, just like I have with some alternative therapy treatments. Seems like

practically everyone is too busy to follow up on their patients so that valid

statistical information could be available.

>

> My point here is that this is not limited to alternative medicine. Just try

asking your doctor how his patients with a certain condition have done over the

last 5-10 years. He'll laugh you out of his office, or lie.

>

> Here's a log entry from yesterday:

>

> December 28, 1998

> Routine meeting with Dr. XXXXXX regarding LHC cancer. WFC asked for treatment

statistics for Henry Ford regarding breast cancer patients. Dr. XXXXX replied

that such statistics are not maintained. I replied that this was a surprising

answer - the kind of answer more likely to come from an alternative medicine

practitioner. Dr. XXXXX commented on the difficulty of assembling meaningful

statistics, citing the variables such as age, number of lymph nodes affected,

size and aggressiveness of the tumor, etc. When I enquired further, I was told

that if we did not have full confidence in Henry Ford, then we were free to seek

treatment elsewhere. I then asked if information was available regarding

clinical trials for the " standard procedure " that Laraine is following. He

indicated that such information is available to anyone; he followed this up by

offering to provide me with a copy of it after the holidays. He indicated that

he had been somewhat blunt, and hoped that it didn't show he

> wasn't interested in the effectiveness of their treatment. He said that in the

various clinical trials, Henry Ford had always come out as good or better than

any other participating site. Dr. XXXXX provided me with the name and phone

number of the doctor in charge of Cancer treatment for Henry Ford - Dr.

Demers 313-874- 6660, and said that I was free to call him if I had any

questions regarding the overall program at HF.

> I was amazed at how similar this answer was to that obtained from the Hulda

clinic - that in effect I was being given the same answer. Without any

statistical evidence that the program is effective, other than verbal comments,

we are expected to have full confidence in the treatment and the institution and

the doctor. This is the very reason why we chose not to participate in the Hulda

regimen.>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 31, 1998

Re: Question

>Where do some of the stats (2/4% effective!) come from? All the cancer

books

>and resources I read give anywhere from 40-85% for 5 yr. survival rates

with

>either chemo

>and/or raditation for most types of cancer. Breast cancer is particularly

>coming along much better with early detection and the new herceptron added

to

>the 3 age-old therapies. No great studies of alternatives can claim that as

far

>as I know. Some regimens work for almost anyone with any type, but not in

large

>nos. do the studies exist to conclude some of the conclusions being

claimed.

>Although I'm sure there's truth is the pushing out of competition for such

>studies and some money-grubbing pharmaceuticals, I also believe

>that too much of that can't exist when investigative reporters abound even

in

>the health

>arena now. Paranoia abounds. So much survival depends on the stage of your

>cancer

>and many particulars that drive your regimen and survival liklihood. I

wouldn't

>be too

>quick to dismiss it all as one's good or maybe best option.

>BC

>

>Annette wrote:

Chemotherapy is effective in only 2 to 4% of cancers----Hodgkin's disease,

Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia (ALL, childhood leukemia), Testicular cancer, and

Choriocarcinoma? (Ralph Moss interview 1995)

http://www.livelinks.com/sumeria/canc/rmoss.html)

There is no scientific evidence for chemotherapy being able to extend in any

appreciable way the lives of patients suffering from the most common organic

cancers, which accounts for 80% of all cancers? (Dr Ulrich Abel. 1990)

Chemotherapy drugs are of benefit to at most 5% of cancer patients they are

given to, but are routinely given to 50% of patients? ( Cairns of

Harvard in Scientific American)

75 % of oncologists, in one survey, said if they had cancer they would not

participate in chemotherapy trials due to its " ineffectiveness and its

unacceptable toxicity " ?

Grouped together, the average cancer patient has a 50/50 chance of living

another 5 years; which are the same odds he or she had in 1971?

Did you know that 30 years ago Dr Hardin B. , Professor of Medical

Physics & Physiology at Berkeley, found that the life expectancy of

untreated cancer cases appears to be FOUR TIMES LONGER than that of treated

individuals? (1969 Science Writers Conference of the ACS)

With some cancers, notably liver, lung, pancreas, bone and advanced breast,

our 5 year survival from traditional therapy alone is virtually the same as

it was 30 years ago?

After $50 Billion spent on cancer research, the list of cancers responsive

to chemotherapy is almost identical to what it was 25 years ago?

(Questioning Chemotherapy by Ralph Moss, p81)

the War on Cancer is a failure with a death rate not lower but 6% higher in

1997 than 1970?

Did you know that one of the worlds leading nuclear medical scientist,

Gofman M.D.,Ph.D. found that past exposure to ionizing radiation, primarily

medical x-rays (eg mammograms), is responsible for about 75 percent of the

breast-cancer problem today?

(http://ratical.co./radiation/CNR?PBC/Overview.ht)

Radiation therapy does not improve the survival of patients with breast

cancer

Did you know that the mortality rate for breast cancer in women over 55 was

about 20% higher in 1995 than in 1970 (so much for mammograms)? (Irwin D.

Bross, Ph.D.)

Did you know that two large studies found an increase in mortality of women

(under 55) from breast cancer who were regularly screened with mammograms?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 31, 1998

Very well said .

From: .Copits@... (Copits )

Reply-to: cures for canceregroups

cures for canceregroups ('cures for canceregroups')

Your results are to be expected in my opinion. It sounds like you have one

expectation/goal and your doctor has another. Your goal is to find out

certain statistics so you can make a more intelligent evaluative decision -

and that's as it should be. But you should consider that your doctor may not

have the goal that you think he should. His goal, it sounds like, is to

treat patients and save as many as he can. His goal is not, it sounds like,

to conduct statistical studies in a controlled fashion. If that were the

case, he'd be accepting only (as an example) white males between the ages of

3- - 40 who have a specific type of cancer and who work in the field of

mining for example. In my opinion, you're both right - you want to have a

good basis for choice - your doctor wants to cure patients, not conduct

longevity studies. Just my opinion.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 31, 1998