Guest guest Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 The content of the two messages simply are not connected Chris. The message I posted yesterday was in connection with the PIL recommendations by the manufacturing company making L-thyroxin, under the heading 'Taking your Medicine' and it says you must not stop taking thyroxine without a doctors advice.... .....the message I posted today is under the heading "Before taking your medicine, make sure you have told your doctor if you are suffering from a condition caused by an underactive adrenal gland". This is important information - it is not a recommendation. It is the doctors who don't recognise that many patients do have low adrenal reserve and start their patients directly on L-thyroxine, sometimes with dire consequences. I think this is a case of 'please read the label'. Sheila Sheila can I remind you of your answer of yesterday about the patient information leaflet when I pointed out that it states that you should not just stop taking thyroxine without consulting your GP.Hi Chris"The manufacturers of all drugs have to write their recommendations on the Patient Information Leaflet (PIL), this does not mean that every single patient who takes those drugs must follow all of their recommendations to the letter - each patient is an individual and have different needs. The drug company recommendations and just that - recommendations only.">Remember, on the Patient Information Leaflet (PIL) in the thyroxine packets, it states categorically that before taking L-thyroxine, you must tell your doctor "...if you are suffering from a condition caused by an underactive adrenal gland". Unhappily for most of us, doctors are not aware of this and they should be made aware.> > Luv - Sheila> > No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1671 - Release Date: 14/09/2008 07:16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 Hi Sheila is currently offline- broadband problems. I think that this subject has now been beated thoroughly to death. In this case medical advice was given so 'enough already'! > thyroid treatment > From: no_reply > Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:16:58 +0000> Subject: Re: Advice?> > Sheila can I remind you of your answer of yesterday about the > patient information leaflet when I pointed out that it states that > you should not just stop taking thyroxine without consulting your GP.> > Hi Chris> > "The manufacturers of all drugs have to write their recommendations > on the Patient Information Leaflet (PIL), this does not mean that > every single patient who takes those drugs must follow all of their > recommendations to the letter - each patient is an individual and > have different needs. The drug company recommendations and just > that - recommendations only."> > > > >> Remember, on the Patient Information Leaflet (PIL) in the thyroxine > packets, it states categorically that before taking L-thyroxine, you > must tell your doctor "...if you are suffering from a condition > caused by an underactive adrenal gland". Unhappily for most of us, > doctors are not aware of this and they should be made aware.> > > > Luv - Sheila> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > TPA is not medically qualified. Consult with a qualified medical practitioner before changing medication.> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 Sheila, You wrote: > ...We have to be seen to be responsible citizens when running > health forums, and I personally would not consider recommending anybody > to start with the 'full replacement dose' (how would one know that > anyway???)... That is why it was a guideline for _doctors_, not for self-treating amateurs. It was also published after extensive peer review in an archival journal based on meta-data from many studies. Even though many doctors may still choose to be more cautious, that makes it quite responsible. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 Sheila, You wrote: > > Probably those doctors believed that everybody converts T4 to T3 because > if they knew otherwise,... They believe that the vast majority convert efficiently, because many carefully crafted studies show that to be the case. The guideline I mentioned did not apply to subclinical hypoT or early stage Hashi's, only to clear cases with high TSH and no complicating indications, which means the thyroid is nearly gone, or to surgical removal or ablation. For that select group, the consequences of too rapid a jump are minimal and easily reversed. My doctor started me at 75 mcg, before these guidelines were published, but he jumped me to 100 mcg four weeks later, something for which I was quite grateful, as it prevented me from suffering the full extent of the symptoms. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 My doctor started me on 50mcg, I am sure this sickness feeling and anxiety must be beacuse I need more than my present 75mcg but I am afraid to increase up again too quick, I really wish I knew when I could! Taking HC is the problem as I dont know how an increase in T4 will effect me> > Probably those doctors believed that everybody converts T4 to T3 because > if they knew otherwise,.. . They believe that the vast majority convert efficiently, because many carefully crafted studies show that to be the case. The guideline I mentioned did not apply to subclinical hypoT or early stage Hashi's, only to clear cases with high TSH and no complicating indications, which means the thyroid is nearly gone, or to surgical removal or ablation. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 HI ChuckYou're a scientist and will follow the science, as most doctors will - but, these particiular studies fail to take into account other studies that show why some of us are unable to convert T4 to T3 and these should not be ignored. Other causes that stop this conversion are: .....aging, obesity, disease, stress, exercise, malnutrition, etc....toxic substances such as phenols, cadmium, mercury .... medications such as propranolol, amiodarone ...and others that may interfere by inhibiting the T4 to T3 conversion...deficiencies in hormones, such as T3, TSH, growth hormone, insulin, cortisone ...and certain trace elements that partially block conversion such as selenium, iron, zinc, copper, iodine ...excess hormones such as glucocorticoids, ACTH, oestrogens and some trace elements that may slow down conversion. Doctors o not take any of these into consideration when patients still suffer symptoms after therapy. Why? - because they believe the 'carefully grafted studies' tell them everything they need to know and that the vast majority convert efficiently. You are lucky to have a doctor who actually did look at this study and decide for himself to give you a trial of an increase, and also that you are a good converter. Luv - Sheila >They believe that the vast majority convert efficiently, because many carefully crafted studies show that to be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008  You are speaking to Dr P tomorrow , and I thought you didn't feel nauseous yesterday, has the feeling come back this morning? Luv - Sheila My doctor started me on 50mcg, I am sure this sickness feeling and anxiety must be beacuse I need more than my present 75mcg but I am afraid to increase up again too quick, I really wish I knew when I could! Taking HC is the problem as I dont know how an increase in T4 will effect me> > Probably those doctors believed that everybody converts T4 to T3 because > if they knew otherwise,.. . They believe that the vast majority convert efficiently, because many carefully crafted studies show that to be the case. The guideline I mentioned did not apply to subclinical hypoT or early stage Hashi's, only to clear cases with high TSH and no complicating indications, which means the thyroid is nearly gone, or to surgical removal or ablation. Chuck No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1673 - Release Date: 15/09/2008 18:49 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 Yes it was back this morning but I also feel hungry at the same time, very strange, the sickness could be anxiety related, I really dont know, at least this time I am eating and come mid morning I am really really hungry, I find any exertion, i.e housework, gardening makes me feel shaky and my tollerance is low and I cant do as much before I get this feeling, thyroid??> > Probably those doctors believed that everybody converts T4 to T3 because > if they knew otherwise,.. . They believe that the vast majority convert efficiently, because many carefully crafted studies show that to be the case. The guideline I mentioned did not apply to subclinical hypoT or early stage Hashi's, only to clear cases with high TSH and no complicating indications, which means the thyroid is nearly gone, or to surgical removal or ablation. Chuck No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1673 - Release Date: 15/09/2008 18:49 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 Hi Sheila Sorry to butt in here but if selenium partly blocks conversion why is it given as a supplement - I maybe wrong here but surely this must exaggerate the problem? Chris Other causes that stop this conversion are: > > ....aging, obesity, disease, stress, exercise, malnutrition, etc....toxic substances such as phenols, cadmium, mercury .... medications such as propranolol, amiodarone ...and others that may interfere by inhibiting the T4 to T3 conversion...deficiencies in hormones, such as T3, TSH, growth hormone, insulin, cortisone ...and certain trace elements that partially block conversion such as selenium, iron, zinc, copper, iodine ...excess hormones such as glucocorticoids, ACTH, oestrogens and some trace elements that may slow down conversion. > > Doctors o not take any of these into consideration when patients still suffer symptoms after therapy. Why? - because they believe the 'carefully grafted studies' tell them everything they need to know and that the vast majority convert efficiently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 We are here discussing some conditions that stop T4 to T3 conversion... and one of them is...deficiency in hormones... a deficiency of selenium partially blocks conversion. As I said yesterday 'please read the label'. Sheila Hi SheilaSorry to butt in here but if selenium partly blocks conversion why is it given as a supplement - I maybe wrong here but surely this must exaggerate the problem?Chris .. No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1673 - Release Date: 15/09/2008 18:49 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 I was under the impression that selenium helped with the conversion? If it doesnt help then I am stopping it--- On Tue, 16/9/08, chrischids <no_reply > Hi SheilaSorry to butt in here but if selenium partly blocks conversion why is it given as a supplement - I maybe wrong here but surely this must exaggerate the problem?ChrisOther causes that stop this conversion are:> > ....aging, obesity, disease, stress, exercise, malnutrition, etc....toxic substances such as phenols, cadmium, mercury .... medications such as propranolol, amiodarone ...and others that may interfere by inhibiting the T4 to T3 conversion.. .deficiencies in hormones, such as T3, TSH, growth hormone, insulin, cortisone ...and certain trace elements that partially block conversion such as selenium, iron, zinc, copper, iodine ...excess hormones such as glucocorticoids, ACTH, oestrogens and some trace elements that may slow down conversion. > > Doctors o not take any of these into consideration when patients still suffer symptoms after therapy. Why? - because they believe the 'carefully grafted studies' tell them everything they need to know and that the vast majority convert efficiently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 Oh my question has been answered !!--- On Tue, 16/9/08, sheilaturner <sheilaturner@...> We are here discussing some conditions that stop T4 to T3 conversion.. . and one of them is...deficiency in hormones... a deficiency of selenium partially blocks conversion. As I said yesterday 'please read the label'. Sheila Hi SheilaSorry to butt in here but if selenium partly blocks conversion why is it given as a supplement - I maybe wrong here but surely this must exaggerate the problem?Chris .. No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1673 - Release Date: 15/09/2008 18:49 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 And I was under the impression that selenium helped to reduce the hashi antibodies. Can anyone find any info about what the case is. I also do not want to be taking selenium if it has a conversion problem connection. Although for me, because I am just taking only T3 for Rt3 maybe at this point I need not be concerned but if I go back to the T4/T3 after I rid myself of the Rt3, I do not want to be taking selenium if there is a problem. Venizia -- In thyroid treatment , sarah s <xxsarahxx_40@...> wrote: > > I was under the impression that selenium helped with the conversion? If it doesnt help then I am stopping it > > > > --- On Tue, 16/9/08, chrischids <no_reply > > > > > > > > > Hi Sheila > > Sorry to butt in here but if selenium partly blocks conversion why is > it given as a supplement - I maybe wrong here but surely this must > exaggerate the problem? > > Chris > > Other causes that stop this conversion are: > > > > ....aging, obesity, disease, stress, exercise, malnutrition, > etc....toxic substances such as phenols, cadmium, mercury .... > medications such as propranolol, amiodarone ...and others that may > interfere by inhibiting the T4 to T3 conversion.. .deficiencies in > hormones, such as T3, TSH, growth hormone, insulin, cortisone ...and > certain trace elements that partially block conversion such as > selenium, iron, zinc, copper, iodine ...excess hormones such as > glucocorticoids, ACTH, oestrogens and some trace elements that may > slow down conversion. > > > > Doctors o not take any of these into consideration when patients > still suffer symptoms after therapy. Why? - because they believe > the 'carefully grafted studies' tell them everything they need to know > and that the vast majority convert efficiently. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 had not read the information correctly as I pointed out in my message back to her. At the risk of repeating myself, I wrote .... Other causes that stop this conversion are: DEFICIENCIES in hormones, such as T3, TSH, growth hormone, insulin, cortisone ...and certain trace elements that partially block conversion such as selenium, iron, zinc, copper, iodine ...excess hormones such as glucocorticoids, ACTH, oestrogens and some trace elements that may slow down conversion. Everybody needs to take Selenium to help with the conversion of T4 to T3. You have no need to be concerned about this Venizia. Luv - Sheila And I was under the impression that selenium helped to reduce thehashi antibodies. Can anyone find any info about what the case is. Ialso do not want to be taking selenium if it has a conversion problemconnection. Although for me, because I am just taking only T3 for Rt3maybe at this point I need not be concerned but if I go back to theT4/T3 after I rid myself of the Rt3, I do not want to be takingselenium if there is a problem.Venizia .. No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1673 - Release Date: 15/09/2008 18:49 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008  It does . didn't read it properly before passing comment. Sheila I was under the impression that selenium helped with the conversion? If it doesnt help then I am stopping it--- On Tue, 16/9/08, chrischids <no_reply > Hi SheilaSorry to butt in here but if selenium partly blocks conversion why is it given as a supplement - I maybe wrong here but surely this must exaggerate the problem? No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1673 - Release Date: 15/09/2008 18:49 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 sarah, You wrote: > ... Taking HC is the problem as I dont know how an increase in T4 > will effect me Sheila may disagree with this, but I would bet another 25 mcg increase would not hurt at this stage. Ask your doctor. The 25 mcg increase is a relatively small step, that should be relatively easy to back off, if you have problems with it. If you are that worried about it, break pills in half to make a smaller incremental increase. If you were closer to what had been your maximum dose, I would be more dubious. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 Sheila, You wrote: > > You're a scientist and will follow the science, as most doctors will > - but, these particiular studies fail to take into account other studies > that show why some of us are unable to convert T4 to T3 and these should > not be ignored. Other causes that stop this conversion are:... There is nothing in the science that says that the minority of people that have difficulty converting should be ignored, only that they are in the minority. You seem to enjoy mis-characterizing science. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 HI Chuck - yes, I would agree with what you say, and if this was me, I think I would have tried the experiment myself. was on 150 mcgs T4 before she stopped it, and after 3 weeks, only started on 50 mcgs. However, before increasing by an extra 25 mcgs, and because adrenal hormones are needed for thyroxine uptake, she would need, at this stage to increase her HC. We will see what Dr P has to say after speaks with him on the phone today Sheila sarah,You wrote:> ... Taking HC is the problem as I dont know how an increase in T4 > will effect meSheila may disagree with this, but I would bet another 25 mcg increase would not hurt at this stage. Ask your doctor. The 25 mcg increase is a relatively small step, that should be relatively easy to back off, if you have problems with it. If you are that worried about it, break pills in half to make a smaller incremental increase. If you were closer to what had been your maximum dose, I would be more dubious.Chuck No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1675 - Release Date: 16/09/2008 19:06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 I think if I increase the T4 again I will need to increase the HC at the same time, its my experience last night that is worrying me, something must have made my heart go off on one like it did!Hopefully Dr P will help me understand this cos I the moment I dont grasp it as well as i should> ... Taking HC is the problem as I dont know how an increase in T4 > will effect meSheila may disagree with this, but I would bet another 25 mcg increase would not hurt at this stage. Ask your doctor. The 25 mcg increase is a relatively small step, that should be relatively easy to back off, if you have problems with it. If you are that worried about it, break pills in half to make a smaller incremental increase. If you were closer to what had been your maximum dose, I would be more dubious.Chuck No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1675 - Release Date: 16/09/2008 19:06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 Hi all, I take my selenium because it helps suppress my auto-antibodies. not sure what else it is good for, but keeping them down is a priority . angel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Such a phrase appears to be a cop out. Just like the BTA keep stating, that there is nothing in the science to show that T4/T3 combination or Armour thyroid works better than synthetic L-thyroxine monotherapy, to which I keep replying, and there is nothing in the science to show that T4 monotherapy works better than T4/T3 combination or Armour therapy. From the majority of the messages from members on our forum, it appears there are a lot of us who are unable to convert - and this is not all in our head, as the prof. would have us believe Sheila This may be beside the particular point, but is it, or can it be, known for certain that those who have difficulty converting are in the minority? After all, few doctors appear to accept the principle, and many people with the condition don't consult their doctor at all.HansThere is nothing in the science that says that the minority of people > that have difficulty converting should be ignored, only that they are in > the minority. You seem to enjoy mis-characterizing science.> > Chuck No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1678 - Release Date: 18/09/2008 09:01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Sheila, You wrote: > ... From the majority of the messages from members on our forum, it > appears there are a lot of us who are unable to convert - and this is > not all in our head, as the prof. would have us believe Now you are mis-characterizing me. A compelling body of evidence says that T4 works fine for the majority of people. That does not mean that the rest should be ignored or that they don't exist, and nothing I said remotely suggested that. In fact, I explicitly contradicted it. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Hi Hans, Chuck, I don't want to get into a bickering match, but most folk who are unwell on T4- and there are a lot of them as our survey suggests, do not get any test other that TSH and free T4 if they are lucky. How can you tell if conversion is taking place if it is not tested for? Then there is the matter of, if it is in the blood, does it get into the cells? there is much more to this than meets the eye. Personally I felt increasingly unwell on T4 as the years went by, having never regained my health on it regardless of dose. I was astonishingly quickly improved as soon as I started taking Armour. I shall never forget waking up the third day of taking armour as I suddenly felt cheerful, clear minded and alert after years of a world of grey cotton wool. How a patient feel is the basis of good medicine, tests are only another guideline, it's what works that matters! > thyroid treatment > From: hneeser@...> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:07:00 +0000> Subject: Re: Advice?> > This may be beside the particular point, but is it, or can it be, known > for certain that those who have difficulty converting are in the > minority? After all, few doctors appear to accept the principle, and > many people with the condition don't consult their doctor at all.> > Hans> > > > There is nothing in the science that says that the minority of people > > that have difficulty converting should be ignored, only that they are > in > > the minority. You seem to enjoy mis-characterizing science.> > > > Chuck> > > ------------------------------------> > TPA is not medically qualified. Consult with a qualified medical practitioner before changing medication.> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 YAY! to that. Mo How a patient feel is the basis of good medicine, tests are only another guideline, it's what works that matters! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Dear Sheila and Chuck and all, When Weetman and his ilk claim that there is nothing in science that indicates T3 is any good, they are looking a limited, narrow view of hypothyroidism -- namely deficient secretion by the thyroid gland. To accomplish this they pick subjects with known primary hypothyroidism or thyroidectomies. Then they use a dose of T3 that is smaller than the starter dose for most folks, although I might find a study where the dose is larger than the starter dose for kids. Then the round off the few good results to zero and hang it out there to be interpreted broadly -- as doctors who wish to keep their license by playing it safe would do. It all gets back to definitions. Weetman and others like the American Thyroid Association and the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists can make this claim fairly accurately if it were limited to deficient secretion by the thyroid gland. However it is not accurate in the broader sense. Saravanan, et al., found 13% of all folks treated for hypothyroidism were not happy with their therapy. If industry had a 13% failure rate, it would be out of business because a competitor would eat their lunch. But the lack of competition in medicine keeps us from proper healthcare -- certainly the 13% would vote for that.... Have a great day, > > There is nothing in the science that says that the minority of people > > that have difficulty converting should be ignored, only that they are > in > > the minority. You seem to enjoy mis-characterizing science. > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1678 - Release Date: 18/09/2008 09:01 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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