Re: cruciferous veg

[Guest guest]

Ross,

> It could be cultural, or even genetic. Maybe we genetically require a

> dose of Brussels sprouts periodically, to avoid some greater evil.

That's possible, or you just have a downregulation of the protective

this-tastes-horrible reaction because you have a greater capacity for

cyanide detoxification.

> Kinda

> like how some in the Mediterranean have an interesting interaction

> between their genes and fava beans, helping to prevent malaria.

But the people in the Mediterranean are the ones who can't eat the

fava beans. The proper interpretation of this, it seems to me, is

that fava beans are mildly toxic to most people and very toxic to

people with G3PDH deficiency.

> Toxic is, after all, usually just a matter of degree, even a matter of

> perspective...

True.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Masterjohn wrote:

>[...]

>But the people in the Mediterranean are the ones who can't eat the

>fava beans. The proper interpretation of this, it seems to me, is

>that fava beans are mildly toxic to most people and very toxic to

>people with G3PDH deficiency.

Well, again, toxic is relative ... the problem is mainly with fresh

green fava beans, and pollen, about the time that malaria incidence is

peaking, and those susceptible to the fava beans are less susceptible to

malaria. So which would *you* prefer - anaemia, or death by malaria?

You could go all Pythagorean and forbid eating fava beans, or go with

natural selection pressures and eat the fava beans and survive the

malaria pathogens. The persistence of both fava beans and the G6PD

deficiency speaks to the latter choice over the former...

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" Read beans and rice, I could eat a plate twice " - Spearhead

[Guest guest]

Masterjohn wrote:

>So you aren't American then?

Americans don't eat liver? Not even fried, with onions and bacon? So, no

liver, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, or fava beans?

Not even with a nice Chianti?

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" It doesn't matter if the Rock wants to go get diamond rings or not! "

- The Rock

[Guest guest]

You guys are all so funny. (I should throw myself in there too, for good

measure) It's amazing how quick some of us are to make assumptions and react to

things that WEREN'T said.

Communication is challenging under the best of circumstances. It makes me wonder

why some folks appear to prefer to assume the worst rather than listen to or

read what is actually said. I have to admit that I've caught myself susceptible

to the same thing at times.

Considering the unlimited power of words. (Unlimited, in the sense that there

are no limits to the extent of our own possible interpretations of them) Perhaps

we should be as careful with them as we would be with...let's say a knife or a

gun, or a hand grenade, or even a plate full of improperly cooked brussel

sprouts.

~Tonio

Masterjohn wrote:

>So you aren't American then?

Americans don't eat liver? Not even fried, with onions and bacon? So, no

liver, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, or fava beans?

Not even with a nice Chianti?

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" It doesn't matter if the Rock wants to go get diamond rings or not! "

- The Rock

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[Guest guest]

Ross wrote:

> Americans don't eat liver? Not even fried, with onions and bacon? So, no

> liver, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, or fava beans?

>

> Not even with a nice Chianti?

Not unless they serve it at Mcs or some other fast food junk place!

, and Sheba

(in Canada)

[Guest guest]

G'Day Ross,

>

> Americans don't eat liver? Not even fried, with onions and bacon? So, no

> liver, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, or fava beans?

>

> Not even with a nice Chianti?

I am an American by birth and have been eating liver with bacon and

onions since I was a little girl. Just this morning I prepared very

rare beef liver with cooked sausage for my sons and I. No Chianti so

early in the day, thank you very much.

Fava beans I have never tried, however.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Yes, I'm also a US native (but not Native American) as have been my

ancestors for several generations.

Please excuse my somewhat rude comments. A few beers tends to loosen my

fingers.

Re: cruciferous veg

> ,

>

>> I am curious as to why you make a point about meeting them on the

>> internet.

>> Are you implying that people on the net who like brussels sprouts are

>> somehow being untruthful with you or are somehow different than the rest

>> of

>> the population? Believe me, my wife likes them and she is not on the

>> internet with me. I would not make it up to prove a point. So why is that

>> even an issue? Perhaps you need to get out more and meet different

>> people,

>> then you would find folks in " real life " who eat them and enjoy them.

>

> Well, to be serious for a moment, of course the people on the internet

> are a different group of people than people in " real life. "

> Especially on a list entitled " microbial nutrition, " which I think we

> can assure each other is not selecting for a random sample of the

> population by any means.

>

> That said, you said before that your wife is a US native. Are you

> also a US native? I ask because of 's comment about the

> importance of the husband's heritage.

>

> Chris

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sounds tasty to me!

Re: cruciferous veg

> G'Day Ross,

>

>>

>> Americans don't eat liver? Not even fried, with onions and bacon? So, no

>> liver, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, or fava beans?

>>

>> Not even with a nice Chianti?

>

> I am an American by birth and have been eating liver with bacon and

> onions since I was a little girl. Just this morning I prepared very

> rare beef liver with cooked sausage for my sons and I. No Chianti so

> early in the day, thank you very much.

>

> Fava beans I have never tried, however.

>

>

> Deanna

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I think you mean H.W. and not W.

Yes, you are quite right. H.W. made a big stink about broccoli when

he was president, and I remember the California broccoli growers sent

him a truck load of it in response.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broccoli:

" United States President H. W. Bush was known to have an active

disdain for broccoli, having actually said so in an offhand remark

during his presidency.[10] In response, a powerful broccoli

agriculture lobby sent several tons of it to the White House. This

broccoli was promptly donated to the Capital Area Food Bank.[11] His

son, President W. Bush, mentioned during a 2004

question-and-answer session that he doesn't mind broccoli, but does

prefer the florets to the stalks. "

Who doesn't prefer the florets to the stalk?

Deanna

[Guest guest]

A very nice recipe for sprouts was mentioned a few exchanges back and

now " very rare beef liver with sausage " . Any chance of some recipes?

Chianti is always nice........ Rioja better still. If Ross is in

Australia surely Australian wines...?

Sally

yoginidd wrote:

> G'Day Ross,

>

>

>> Americans don't eat liver? Not even fried, with onions and bacon? So, no

>> liver, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, or fava beans?

>>

>> Not even with a nice Chianti?

>>

>

> I am an American by birth and have been eating liver with bacon and

> onions since I was a little girl. Just this morning I prepared very

> rare beef liver with cooked sausage for my sons and I. No Chianti so

> early in the day, thank you very much.

>

> Fava beans I have never tried, however.

>

>

> Deanna

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Tonio,

Yes, they are okay peeled <g>, especially dipped in something creamy.

Certainly I use the whole head (is head the proper term for a

broccoli plant), stalks and all.

Deanna

>

> Hey Deanna,

>

> The stalks when peeled are quite sweet and delicious. Really.

>

[Guest guest]

Ross,

> >But the people in the Mediterranean are the ones who can't eat the

> >fava beans. The proper interpretation of this, it seems to me, is

> >that fava beans are mildly toxic to most people and very toxic to

> >people with G3PDH deficiency.

> Well, again, toxic is relative ... the problem is mainly with fresh

> green fava beans, and pollen, about the time that malaria incidence is

> peaking, and those susceptible to the fava beans are less susceptible to

> malaria. So which would *you* prefer - anaemia, or death by malaria?

I don't understand your question. You are, if I understand correctly,

identifying a benefit to the dysfunctional gene, not a benefit to the

fava bean. In other words, the people more susceptible to fava

toxicity are less susceptible to malaria, but they don't have to eat

the fava bean to be protected from malaria. In fact, if they do eat

the fava bean, they can become very ill or worse. Am I

misunderstanding this?

To take the analogy back to brussels sprouts, you suggested that maybe

people who like brussels sprouts are getting some benefit from them to

prevent some other evil. But this is a poor analogy for two reasons:

first, in one case (fava) you are talking about a benefit that offsets

the poor tolerance, whereas in the other (sprouts) you are talking

about a benefit that goes along with a higher tolerance; second, in

one case (fava) you are talking about a benefit of having certain

genes and in the other (sprouts) you are talking about a benefit to

the food.

As far as I know, apart from showing their clear toxicity in fairly

large amounts (2-15% of the diet by weight) in lab animals, the health

effects of brussels sprouts have not been studied very much. So we

are both at the point of almost complete speculation, and neither of

our views is really better supported than the other, but I am partial

to believing there is no unique benefit to brussels sprouts over and

above providing certain nutrients that can easily be obtained from

other foods, especially crucifers, that the tolerance for brussels

sprouts in the UK and associated populations is genetic, and that the

favorable taste for them is cultural.

But I really can't criticize the hypothesis you are partial to, that

brussels sprouts protect against some unidentified disease or other

type of ill health.

> You could go all Pythagorean and forbid eating fava beans, or go with

> natural selection pressures and eat the fava beans and survive the

> malaria pathogens. The persistence of both fava beans and the G6PD

> deficiency speaks to the latter choice over the former...

Either I'm really misunderstanding part of this, or your using an

erroneous premise. I don't think you actually have to eat the fava

beans to get protection from malaria -- am I wrong?

Chris

[Guest guest]

Ross

> Americans don't eat liver? Not even fried, with onions and bacon? So, no

> liver, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, or fava beans?

My parents did/do with onions (don't remember bacon). Broccoli shows

up, but fava beans and brussels sprouts? Forget it (although brussels

sprouts did appear from time to time as a kid).

Unfortunately, the taste for liver was not passed on to me and most of

my siblings (although I think one sister eats it because her husband,

who is from Italy, likes it).

> Not even with a nice Chianti?

I wouldn't dare share a nice Chianti with my dad. He would put ice

cubes in it :-))

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

Wasn't this menu or at least liver and fava beans and " a nice Chianti " what

Hannibal Lector ate in " Silence of the Lambs " ? A movie I have not and will

not be watching.

Connie

_____

From: nutrition

[mailto:nutrition ] On Behalf Of

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 12:33 PM

nutrition

Subject: Re: cruciferous veg

Ross

> Americans don't eat liver? Not even fried, with onions and bacon? So, no

> liver, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, or fava beans?

My parents did/do with onions (don't remember bacon). Broccoli shows

up, but fava beans and brussels sprouts? Forget it (although brussels

sprouts did appear from time to time as a kid).

Unfortunately, the taste for liver was not passed on to me and most of

my siblings (although I think one sister eats it because her husband,

who is from Italy, likes it).

> Not even with a nice Chianti?

I wouldn't dare share a nice Chianti with my dad. He would put ice

cubes in it :-))

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

Connie,

You forgot the brussel sprouts, didn't you?

Wasn't this menu or at least liver and fava beans and " a nice Chianti " what

Hannibal Lector ate in " Silence of the Lambs " ? A movie I have not and will

not be watching.

Connie

_____

From: nutrition

[mailto:nutrition ] On Behalf Of

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 12:33 PM

nutrition

Subject: Re: cruciferous veg

Ross

> Americans don't eat liver? Not even fried, with onions and bacon? So, no

> liver, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, or fava beans?

My parents did/do with onions (don't remember bacon). Broccoli shows

up, but fava beans and brussels sprouts? Forget it (although brussels

sprouts did appear from time to time as a kid).

Unfortunately, the taste for liver was not passed on to me and most of

my siblings (although I think one sister eats it because her husband,

who is from Italy, likes it).

> Not even with a nice Chianti?

I wouldn't dare share a nice Chianti with my dad. He would put ice

cubes in it :-))

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

Masterjohn wrote:

>I don't understand your question. You are, if I understand correctly,

>identifying a benefit to the dysfunctional gene, not a benefit to the

>fava bean. In other words, the people more susceptible to fava

>toxicity are less susceptible to malaria, but they don't have to eat

>the fava bean to be protected from malaria. In fact, if they do eat

>the fava bean, they can become very ill or worse. Am I

>misunderstanding this?

As I understand it, they eat the fava bean to get the protection from

malaria. It is the anaemia that offers the protection - by reduction of

oxygen delivered to capillaries, which is required by the malaria

pathogen. This is also why sickle-cell anaemia offers protection from

malaria.

Incidentally, lima beans can have a similar effect on susceptible

people.

Oh, and further: traditional herb and spice mixes used around the

Mediterranean either enhance or reduce the impact of fava beans,

depending on the mix. See " Why Some Like it Hot " , Nabhan, for

an interesting read on the whole subject.

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" How am I gonna live my life if I'm positive? "

- Spearhead

[Guest guest]

Connie Hampton wrote:

>Wasn't this menu or at least liver and fava beans and " a nice Chianti " what

>Hannibal Lector ate in " Silence of the Lambs " ? A movie I have not and will

>not be watching.

Well, thank goodness *someone* got the American cultural reference...

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" Words can only hurt if you try to read them. Don't play their game " - Zoolander

[Guest guest]

What about if one ferments the fava beans? Still toxic? I make delicious

Dosas that involve soaking 1/2 cups of fava bean, red lentils and brown rice

overnight, then grinding and blending the water & products, adding your favorite

seeds for seasoning ( I add cumin, fenegreek or fennel) plus sea salt, a little

raw sugar & a tad of whey or kefir to start the ferment. . . leave out on the

counter overnight and there you have it. A wonderful batter for daily dosas,

that for we two, last about 5 days in the fridge. It's a simple thing to take

our of fridge, and fry like pancakes or crepes each morning or noon, until all

gone. One can vary the mix, as well - like use white rice, dried peas, and

black lentils! Yummy! I like these even better than my old texas hoecakes.

Norma

[Guest guest]

Sally

A couple of years ago, some award was given to a restaurant in the

suburbs of London as the best restaurant in the world. Another

restaurant was around # 3. They do have some great cooks and

restaurants although most people do not exactly crave traditional

British fare on this side of the Atlantic.

GB

>

> I think it's going, slowly dying away, and has handled it

very

> well. Thanks for the kind remarks about Brits, Chris. We like to

think

> our cooking has got better though I'm not so sure it's true. You

should

> come over and see

>

> Sally

[Guest guest]

Ross,

> As I understand it, they eat the fava bean to get the protection from

> malaria. It is the anaemia that offers the protection - by reduction of

> oxygen delivered to capillaries, which is required by the malaria

> pathogen. This is also why sickle-cell anaemia offers protection from

> malaria.

It appears from this link that you are right:

http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/bindon/ant475/g6pd/g6pd.htm

However, notice that 1 in 12 cases of favism results in death. So,

clearly this use of fava beans is a highly toxic way of killing the

malaria organism, and is somewhat akin to chemotherapy in that it is a

pretty effective way of killing the disease (at first, at least ---

they say in the link that plasmodium adapts after several cell cycles)

but it is also highly toxic to the person you're trying to save.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Masterjohn wrote:

>However, notice that 1 in 12 cases of favism results in death. So,

>clearly this use of fava beans is a highly toxic way of killing the

>malaria organism, and is somewhat akin to chemotherapy in that it is a

>pretty effective way of killing the disease (at first, at least ---

>they say in the link that plasmodium adapts after several cell cycles)

>but it is also highly toxic to the person you're trying to save.

And yet, natural selection has produced a large number of people around

malaria trouble spots who have a risk of falling victim to favism. Toxic

or cure?

Note also that the genetic material in question is carried on the X

chromosome, such that the problem is mainly one for males; females

carrying G6PD deficiency are carrying protection, and advancing the

germline.

And back around to culture, peoples in the areas where this genetic

" deficiency " has propagated have developed a range of methods for

minimising the downsides without actually removing fava beans from their

diets - including removing the hulls, cooking with ameliorative herbs

and spices, and forbidding children and pregnant women from eating them.

1 in 12 cases of favism may well result in death, but not 1 in 12 cases

of fava bean ingestion. The practice of eating fava beans, even at risk

of developing favism, has lead to greater survival in areas where

malaria is deadly, and through the pressure of natural selection, that

genetic variation has prospered. Modern medicines and pesticides now

make that genetic variation unnecessary, and loss of cultural knowledge

makes it riskier than contracting malaria, but it is what it is.

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" I think about the dirt that I'll be wearing for a shirt,

And I hope that I get old before I die "

- They Might Be Giants

[Guest guest]

Ross,

> And yet, natural selection has produced a large number of people around

> malaria trouble spots who have a risk of falling victim to favism. Toxic

> or cure?

And just the same, there are lots of people with cancer in the same

areas where chemotherapy abounds. Why pose the question in such a way

as to imply that something must be toxic OR a cure, when, quite

clearly, many cures are toxic?

[snip]

> 1 in 12 cases of favism may well result in death, but not 1 in 12 cases

> of fava bean ingestion.

But it is the favism -- consumption of fava beans by people with the

deficiency -- that you are extolling the benefits of.

> The practice of eating fava beans, even at risk

> of developing favism, has lead to greater survival in areas where

> malaria is deadly, and through the pressure of natural selection, that

> genetic variation has prospered. Modern medicines and pesticides now

> make that genetic variation unnecessary, and loss of cultural knowledge

> makes it riskier than contracting malaria, but it is what it is.

They in many ways do the same thing -- provide lots of toxic cures for things.

Chris

[Guest guest]

I don't think anyone in any country would want to claim Hannibal as one

of their own.

GB

>

> >Wasn't this menu or at least liver and fava beans and " a nice

Chianti " what

> >Hannibal Lector ate in " Silence of the Lambs " ? A movie I have not

and will

> >not be watching.

>

> Well, thank goodness *someone* got the American cultural reference...

> --

> Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

> " Words can only hurt if you try to read them. Don't play their game " -

Zoolander

>

[Guest guest]

Sally

What is it? One or two hundred pounds per person?

GB

> You should see the prices Guru.

>

> Sally

>

> Guru K wrote:

> > Sally

> >

> > A couple of years ago, some award was given to a restaurant in

the

> > suburbs of London as the best restaurant in the world. Another

> > restaurant was around # 3. They do have some great cooks and

> > restaurants although most people do not exactly crave traditional

> > British fare on this side of the Atlantic.

> >

> > GB

> >

> >

> >

> >> I think it's going, slowly dying away, and has handled it

> >>

> > very

> >

> >> well. Thanks for the kind remarks about Brits, Chris. We like to

> >>

> > think

> >

> >> our cooking has got better though I'm not so sure it's true. You

> >>

> > should

> >

> >> come over and see

> >>

> >> Sally

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Norma wrote:

> I make delicious Dosas that involve soaking 1/2 cups of fava bean,

red lentils and brown rice overnight, then grinding and blending the

water & products, adding your favorite seeds for seasoning [...]

I tried making dosa, but they keep on sticking to my stainless steel

cooking pan. It appears the dough will get off easier when cooled a

little. Can you tell me how you do it? Can i use whole beans and lentils?

Thanks,

Maarten