Re: OT: Old Animals

[Guest guest]

Dirk Coetsee wrote:

>Hi Suzanne,

>

>This is a peculiar problem. What symptoms do they get if they eat no animal

>products? Does it even happen with, e.g. broccoli? Sounds like the most

>terrible dysbiosis. Have you tried EM probiotics?

>

>

>

Thanks for asking, Dirk. It's a rather old story by now and I probably

should have deleted unremarked that trite bit of ignorance that was

originally posted....I've run into enough of those sanctimonious sorts

who don't know what they don't know that it should be old hat to me by

now....but I've been feeling a bit testy lately and lost my temper.

Apologies.

Yes, you're right. The kids are recovering from a particularly nasty

bit of gut dysbiosis brought on from undiagnosed gluten

intolerance/celiac and followed by my own bit of stupidity with soy

milk.....so much for it being meat bad karma biting us on the butt, eh?

It's taken a few years, but we are successfully adding a few foods back

in while still hitting the wall with others. They can eat almost all

vegetables, except those foods that the vegetarian/vegan crowd rely so

heavily upon for protein, like beans/legumes, nuts, soy, and the faux

meats constructed from wheat gluten. If they don't get animal protein

at every meal, then their behavior errodes quickly. Meat protein keeps

them stabilized and thriving. If they eat foods that they don't

tolerate, their behavior errodes and they get diarrhea, which leads to

reacting this way to more and more foods. We've been eating NT-ish ways

for a few years now and I credit probiotics--particularly coconut milk

kefir--for a great deal of the progress they've made....which, of

course, isn't nearly fast enough to satisfy any of us.

--s, feeling sheepish for responding to the original troll....sorry, guys!

[Guest guest]

Wow, they sound like me!

Have you heard of EM? www.eminfo.info

It's a marvellous probiotic

On 10/25/06, Suzanne Noakes <snoakes@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> Dirk Coetsee wrote:

>

> >Hi Suzanne,

> >

> >This is a peculiar problem. What symptoms do they get if they eat no

> animal

> >products? Does it even happen with, e.g. broccoli? Sounds like the most

> >terrible dysbiosis. Have you tried EM probiotics?

> >

> >

> >

> Thanks for asking, Dirk. It's a rather old story by now and I probably

> should have deleted unremarked that trite bit of ignorance that was

> originally posted....I've run into enough of those sanctimonious sorts

> who don't know what they don't know that it should be old hat to me by

> now....but I've been feeling a bit testy lately and lost my temper.

> Apologies.

>

> Yes, you're right. The kids are recovering from a particularly nasty

> bit of gut dysbiosis brought on from undiagnosed gluten

> intolerance/celiac and followed by my own bit of stupidity with soy

> milk.....so much for it being meat bad karma biting us on the butt, eh?

> It's taken a few years, but we are successfully adding a few foods back

> in while still hitting the wall with others. They can eat almost all

> vegetables, except those foods that the vegetarian/vegan crowd rely so

> heavily upon for protein, like beans/legumes, nuts, soy, and the faux

> meats constructed from wheat gluten. If they don't get animal protein

> at every meal, then their behavior errodes quickly. Meat protein keeps

> them stabilized and thriving. If they eat foods that they don't

> tolerate, their behavior errodes and they get diarrhea, which leads to

> reacting this way to more and more foods. We've been eating NT-ish ways

> for a few years now and I credit probiotics--particularly coconut milk

> kefir--for a great deal of the progress they've made....which, of

> course, isn't nearly fast enough to satisfy any of us.

>

> --s, feeling sheepish for responding to the original troll....sorry, guys!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

FYI-diareah and other forms of " sickness " , colds,

fever, etc. are signs and symptoms of your body

detoxing!

peta.org Animals are not ours to eat.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I think we all tend to forget that:

1. This is not a very evolved planet ( slowly getting there but not

there yet.)

2. We are NOT, repeat NOT at the top of the food chain.

Best to honor all that we do even when we eat!

[Guest guest]

Plants do not have beating hearts or verbalize. They are different

life forms and I don't believe that they experience things the way we do..

=========================================

Actually, I believe they do. Some years ago at a nursery convention, we

were shown movies of a process where plants were attached to a device

like a lie detector. Then in front of the plants, one person in a line was

told

to prune a certain plant, which was not touched but pointed out to that

person. Each person in line stopped at the plant for a moment, then walked

on. When the appointed person came to that plant and showed a pair of

shears, the lie detector showed that the plant DID know what was going to

happen even before the man cut off a branch of that plant.

I had nightmares after that about a giant carrot chasing me with a pair

of scissors to cut off all my hair.

Pat in CA

[Guest guest]

Let me state the obvious: animals have flesh and blood, beating

hearts, " bear our young " , have emotions and feel pain. Plants do not

have beating hearts or verbalize. They are different life forms and I

don't believe that they experience things the way we do..

[Guest guest]

Sometimes diarrhea is your body detoxifying. However if you are a celiac

for example diarrhea is a sign that you have damaged the lining of your

digestive system beyond your ability to digest solid food. (And it was

vegetable matter that did it!)

The simplified model of " Vegan Biology " would be great if it was as

universally true as a vegan would have you believe. Unfortunately our

biology is so complex, that science doesn't even fully understand it

yet. Cancer? Nothing to do with the asbestos you inhaled, it's the meat

stupid!

The facts are easy to prove. Our species has been eating animal protein

longer than they have been eating grains.

" Most meat eaters are negative " belongs in the same message board as

" Most black people steal " , " All of the world's wars are started by the

Jews. " or " Most Vegans have an inflated sense of self-importance " .

Remember, the root of bigotry is ignorance.

Blythe wrote:

> FYI-diareah and other forms of " sickness " , colds,

> fever, etc. are signs and symptoms of your body

> detoxing!

>

> peta.org Animals are not ours to eat.

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Or caused by pathogenic bacteria and viruses...

(excuse me if this is a duplicate, seems to have lost my first

reply)

>

> FYI-diareah and other forms of " sickness " , colds,

> fever, etc. are signs and symptoms of your body

> detoxing!

>

> peta.org Animals are not ours to eat.

>

[Guest guest]

Fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds all have protein. That is where

vegetarian animals get their protein and human beings do too.

[Guest guest]

Except for those that eat meat...

-------------- Original message --------------

From: " mistymountainforest " <mistymountainforest@...>

> Fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds all have protein. That is where

> vegetarian animals get their protein and human beings do too.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Misty,

You have stumbled into a nest of unregenerate flesh eaters. Proselytizing

will not work. Best to back out slowly before being eaten.

Connie

_____

From: nutrition

[mailto:nutrition ] On Behalf Of

mistymountainforest

Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:39 AM

nutrition

Subject: Re: OT: Old Animals

Fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds all have protein. That is where

vegetarian animals get their protein and human beings do too.

[Guest guest]

>

> Let me state the obvious: animals have flesh and blood, beating

> hearts, " bear our young " , have emotions and feel pain. Plants do not

> have beating hearts or verbalize. They are different life forms and I

> don't believe that they experience things the way we do..

>

Why? They have a circulatory system, they breathe, albeit through

their skin, they are adaptable to many circumstances, they will go to

great measures to survive, ie drop their leaves in drought or cold

weather to conserve water, and protect the roots, and look happy when

cared for. Plants store food and will even prepare for rain, using

their leaves to direct the flow to their root tips. They will

sacrifice themselves to grow out their young, (seeds) and some trees

can outlive your future generations if you leave them alone. You

think they are less deserving of your thankfulness just because they

can't run away? That is why I say no matter what you eat, something

is lost, or must die, and so every morsel is something to give thanks

for. I get the feeling that you are very young, as you get older you

may realize that what is " right " to you is not for everyone. I am

very glad that we are part of a society that allows you to have a

choice. Have a good day and take care of yourself. I am sorry if I

hurt your feelings or something.

3jsmom31

[Guest guest]

>

> Fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds all have protein. That is where

> vegetarian animals get their protein and human beings do too.

>

Yes they do, they have specialized systems to thrive on this medium.

They produce enzymes or have mulitple stomachs or belch up their food

later to chew again, or have special teeth to grind with. In order

for us to get much from our veggies, we have to cook them, or ferment,

or freeze them, to break down the cellulose and release any nutrients.

I think fiber is good for us, but so are the complex vitamins in

meats and dairy. You make good points, but in reality, a diet that

excludes a whole group of foods is imbalanced. You may thrive this

way for a long time, or forever, but that is because our bodies are so

extraordinary, and will compensate for the imbalance as long as it

can. And again, I am glad that we both have a choice in our

nutritional choices. I am glad that you are not in charge of my diet,

and I wouldn't presume to tell you what to eat either. Care and

sympathy to you in your campaign.

3jsmom31

[Guest guest]

, read The Secret Life of Plants, that will completely change that way you

think about plants. It's a wonderful book that can be enjoyed by anyone. Totally

beyond ideological persuasion of any kind. Just fascinating studies.

And let me state the obvious, we are all totally different. Each one of us.

Different feelings, different background/history, different physiological and

emotional needs. What works or applies to one does not necessarily apply to

another. There are no one size fits all for everything for everyone answers,

just billions and billions of questions that each individual must grapple with

in their own unique way.

But, if we can all look for the underlying common ground that we all do have

(including plants animals, humans of all types and persuasions) then we can

consciously tap into that which binds everything in this universe together and

enjoy each other and everything as is our potential, even the people and things

that we don't enjoy.

Ah, there it is again, another example of the paradoxical nature of the truth,

which as always is far beyond right and wrong, up or down, vegie or meat, black

and white, neo-con or commie pinko. Truth cannot be reduced to a simple formula,

in fact it cannot be reduced at all. But you are welcome to try. But, it'll

never be true.

Let me state the obvious: animals have flesh and blood, beating

hearts, " bear our young " , have emotions and feel pain. Plants do not

have beating hearts or verbalize. They are different life forms and I

don't believe that they experience things the way we do..

[Guest guest]

Some of us may be savage degenerate raw meat eaters, but we don't eat humans, at

least not in cyberspace. Though vegetarians can be quite tasty when young and

still healthy and open minded.

" A closed mind is a terrible thing to taste. "

Dear Misty,

You have stumbled into a nest of unregenerate flesh eaters. Proselytizing

will not work. Best to back out slowly before being eaten.

Connie

_____

From: nutrition

[mailto:nutrition ] On Behalf Of

mistymountainforest

Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:39 AM

nutrition

Subject: Re: OT: Old Animals

Fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds all have protein. That is where

vegetarian animals get their protein and human beings do too.

[Guest guest]

--------- Re: OT: Old Animals

>

>

>

> Fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds all have protein. That is where

> vegetarian animals get their protein and human beings do too.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> That is why I say no matter what you eat, something

> is lost, or must die, and so every morsel is something to give thanks

> for.

Absolutely. It is impossible to live and obtain adequate nutrition

without something dying as a result.

>I get the feeling that you are very young, as you get older you

> may realize that what is " right " to you is not for everyone.

Or, perhaps you will realize that a vegan lifestyle isn't as healthy

for you as you now think, which happened to me a few years ago. I

have never looked back. I could sustain the vegan diet for a while,

but I am much healthier eating animal foods again, some that I raise

myself quite humanly, thank you very much. Did you know that chickens

are naturally omnivorous? Cats need meat. Some animals eat meat

naturally. Some don't. Please do what you think is best for you, and

leave the rest of us to do the same.

In peace,

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Ha ha! Way to go Tonio, you wise and wonderful soul!

> Some of us may be savage degenerate raw meat eaters, but we don't

eat humans, at least not in cyberspace. Though vegetarians can be

quite tasty when young and still healthy and open minded.

>

> " A closed mind is a terrible thing to taste. "

[Guest guest]

To be fair, some people thrive on a vegan diet! But many need at least the

addition of some eggs or something. Even in his " One answer to

cancer " where he was COMPLETELY against eating any meat or protein, said

that patients would do much better if they had two raw eggs a day and the

occasional tablespoon of raw liver. Not that anything the dude says is

necessarily true (but maybe it is...?)

On 10/26/06, yoginidd <WAPFbaby@...> wrote:

>

>

> > That is why I say no matter what you eat, something

> > is lost, or must die, and so every morsel is something to give thanks

> > for.

>

> Absolutely. It is impossible to live and obtain adequate nutrition

> without something dying as a result.

>

> >I get the feeling that you are very young, as you get older you

> > may realize that what is " right " to you is not for everyone.

>

> Or, perhaps you will realize that a vegan lifestyle isn't as healthy

> for you as you now think, which happened to me a few years ago. I

> have never looked back. I could sustain the vegan diet for a while,

> but I am much healthier eating animal foods again, some that I raise

> myself quite humanly, thank you very much. Did you know that chickens

> are naturally omnivorous? Cats need meat. Some animals eat meat

> naturally. Some don't. Please do what you think is best for you, and

> leave the rest of us to do the same.

>

> In peace,

> Deanna

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dirk Coetsee wrote:

> Wow, they sound like me!

> Have you heard of EM? www.eminfo.info

> It's a marvellous probiotic

>

>

>

It looks like it is a great product. When the kids can tolerate

molasses--go figure--I may give that a try!

--s

[Guest guest]

Hi Dirk,

But eggs aren't vegan, so such a diet is ovovegetarian. Some

nutrients are tough to come by without animal foods. But yes, we all

thrive on different plans, most definitely!

Deanna

> To be fair, some people thrive on a vegan diet! But many need at

least the

> addition of some eggs or something. Even in his " One

answer to

> cancer " where he was COMPLETELY against eating any meat or protein, said

> that patients would do much better if they had two raw eggs a day

and the

> occasional tablespoon of raw liver. Not that anything the dude says is

> necessarily true (but maybe it is...?)

>

[Guest guest]

Dirk Coetsee wrote:

> To be fair, some people thrive on a vegan diet! But many need at least the

> addition of some eggs or something. Even in his " One

> answer to

> cancer " where he was COMPLETELY against eating any meat or protein, said

> that patients would do much better if they had two raw eggs a day and the

> occasional tablespoon of raw liver. Not that anything the dude says is

> necessarily true (but maybe it is...?)

>

Dr. Fine mentioned something interesting that

might shed light on the " meat causes me problems "

issue. Some people harbor a bacteria that, when

you eat meat, produces *sulfuric acid* which is

extremely irritating to the gut.

Egg yolk and liver were recommended

almost universally in the past (and still,

in some cultures). Neither really appeals to me,

except in theory. Someday I'm going to play

with raw-egg smoothies though.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

RE: OT: Old Animals

> Dear Misty,

>

> You have stumbled into a nest of unregenerate flesh eaters. Proselytizing

> will not work. Best to back out slowly before being eaten.

>

>

>

> Connie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hahah...Connie, well some places do eat people still.

Well give a person credit for trying at least, while learning to live.

But I would agree that the method being used, will not work, but it is

interesting debate to be sure. For what ever reasons a person changes,

it has to be credited for any changes being made. Also to accept them

where they are at in not changing, as we all are at different places

in our lives.

Audrey

<snippet>>

> You have stumbled into a nest of unregenerate flesh eaters.

Proselytizing

> will not work. Best to back out slowly before being eaten.

>

>

>

> Connie

>

[Guest guest]

Hah, Yeah so much for tolerance and supportive of anything someone

does transitionaly.

I cannot afford to buy organic or free-range. Oh and by the way

kosher does not mean the animal was treated right). I increase our

grains, vege's, fruits and nut/seeds as much as possible, while

decreasing meat and dairy. But only as I learn how to replace the

proper nutrion to my children. I agree with the jews about how the

animals should be treated, and agree about eating more of the

natural things. Hint, in third world countries meat is a flavoring

not a main course, if at all. Variety is the key when you look into

their diets, and not refined. Some choice between the oil for

synthetic shoes and tannins for leather! Try picking your way

through the lesser of two evils--ecoli spinach or pestacides, buyer

beware. Just that the debater should keep an open mind to people who

are sincerely, trying--vegetarian or not.

Audrey

<snippet>

> > Some of us may be savage degenerate raw meat eaters, but we don't

> eat humans, at least not in cyberspace. Though vegetarians can be

> quite tasty when young and still healthy and open minded.

> >

> > " A closed mind is a terrible thing to taste. "

>