Kathy

[Guest guest]

>Hi Kathy,

You wrote:

>

>You are right, these behavior mod programs focusing on positive behaviors

>work so well that it makes one feel ridiculous that one didn't figure it

>out earlier. We did notice it worked a lot faster with our non-OCD child

>than our OCDer though.

>

Well, the initial excitement about the chip system has now worn off and the

kids are devastated (i.e. reduced to tears) when they lose a chip. I think

Kelsey may have an issue with scrupulosity so of course she can't stand the

fact that her brother might have " more chips " than she does or earn a

reward when she can't. We're spending an inordinate time obsessing about

getting chips around here and what's fair. I like the immediacy of the

rewards and the ability for me to have a consequence instead of yelling.

But it's kind of a mixed bag.

What was your experience early on vs. over time using this sytem with your

OCD son, Kathy? Should I stick with it awhile as others on this list have

recommended for behavior mod programs?

in San Diego

>

>At 06:45 PM 4/18/99 -0700, you wrote:

>>From: Roman <ChrisRoman@...>

>>

>>Yes, I will be at OCSDA also on Saturday only (driving up and back from San

>>Diego) and would like to get together.

>>

>>San Diego Chris

>>

>>P.S. Implemented the poker chip trading idea and you ought to see my house!

>>Kids asking if they could fold the laundry for me, sweep the back deck, and

>>pointing out how they didn't yell and worked things out between them!!

>>Don't know if it'll last, but the positive attitude is refreshing around

>>here! Most importantly, they seem to feel genuinely good about getting

>>strokes for good behavior and keep asking me if I'm proud of them.

>>

>>

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>Share the wealth!

>>http://www.ONElist.com

>>Tell a friend about ONElist's 115,000 free e-mail communities!

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>The is sponsored by the OCSDA. You may visit

>their web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom

>support at http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

>>

>>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Tired of empty chat rooms and out of date bulletin boards?

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>their web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom

>support at http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

[Guest guest]

I stay away from chip systems for exactly this reason. I wanted to say this

when it was first suggested but people seemed to like the idea so much that I

didn't. In my opinion, and I've

used chip systems in my teaching job, they are not appropriate for children with

OCD but they work great for kids with ADD.

Dana in NC

Roman wrote:

> From: Roman <ChrisRoman@...>

>

> >Hi Kathy,

>

> You wrote:

> >

> >You are right, these behavior mod programs focusing on positive behaviors

> >work so well that it makes one feel ridiculous that one didn't figure it

> >out earlier. We did notice it worked a lot faster with our non-OCD child

> >than our OCDer though.

> >

> Well, the initial excitement about the chip system has now worn off and the

> kids are devastated (i.e. reduced to tears) when they lose a chip. I think

> Kelsey may have an issue with scrupulosity so of course she can't stand the

> fact that her brother might have " more chips " than she does or earn a

> reward when she can't. We're spending an inordinate time obsessing about

> getting chips around here and what's fair. I like the immediacy of the

> rewards and the ability for me to have a consequence instead of yelling.

> But it's kind of a mixed bag.

>

> What was your experience early on vs. over time using this sytem with your

> OCD son, Kathy? Should I stick with it awhile as others on this list have

> recommended for behavior mod programs?

>

> in San Diego

>

> >

> >At 06:45 PM 4/18/99 -0700, you wrote:

> >>From: Roman <ChrisRoman@...>

> >>

> >>Yes, I will be at OCSDA also on Saturday only (driving up and back from San

> >>Diego) and would like to get together.

> >>

> >>San Diego Chris

> >>

> >>P.S. Implemented the poker chip trading idea and you ought to see my house!

> >>Kids asking if they could fold the laundry for me, sweep the back deck, and

> >>pointing out how they didn't yell and worked things out between them!!

> >>Don't know if it'll last, but the positive attitude is refreshing around

> >>here! Most importantly, they seem to feel genuinely good about getting

> >>strokes for good behavior and keep asking me if I'm proud of them.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >>Share the wealth!

> >>http://www.ONElist.com

> >>Tell a friend about ONElist's 115,000 free e-mail communities!

> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >>The is sponsored by the OCSDA. You may visit

> >their web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom

> >support at http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >Tired of empty chat rooms and out of date bulletin boards?

> >http://www.ONElist.com

> >ONElist: Making the Internet Intimate

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >The is sponsored by the OCSDA. You may visit

> >their web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom

> >support at http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Has ONElist changed your life?

> http://www.ONElist.com

> Visit our homepage and share with us your experiences at ONElist of the Week!

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> The is sponsored by the OCSDA. You may visit their

web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom support at

http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris:

It sounds like your chip program has become part of Kelsey's OCD (this is

pretty common, after all OCD is in all parts of their lives). This

complicates things a bit and you might want to modify things somewhat.

What we did was keep a scorecard and ask the kids to report at the end of

the day what points they had earned/lost. BTW we also tracked what we

thought it should be so there was no cheating. That way at the end of the

day everything would be totalled up and they knew where they were. Also we

only tracked about 5-6 good behaviors and 5-6 difficult behaviors although

some were quite generic, e.g. rude and disrespectful. Totalling up once a

day avoids constant worrying, arguing and negotiating about the situation.

An important part was negotiating up front on the family contract. This

way we had pre-agreement about how things would work. This helps to avoid

disappointment, disagreement and encourages the kids' commitment to the

arrangements. They suggested the points and behaviors to be tracked. We

had to agree to them however. Also we discussed with them how they are

responsible for themselves, everyone is different, we are the parents

running the show, so commentary about how others are doing is not allowed.

You might want to set up a reward systems so when Kelsey sees she is doing

less well and she doesn't start obsessing or crying about it, that she gets

extra points. I would not put this as a difficult behavior for negative

consequences. Also discuss with Kelsey how this is her OCD and that is

something you are working on.

Re; immediate feedback. This is still important if unsafe or extremely

difficult behaviors are happening. You should have pre-negotiated

consequences for these so you can apply them calmly. Also remembering

praise for the positive behaviors (as well as points) is a very key part of

immediate feedback that helps a lot.

These changes are quite difficult and so I recommend to just keep plugging

away. Every so often we would get side tracked and busy with other things

and we found it necessary to recommit and come back to the program. After

about four months we had got enough change that we did not need to keep it

up. It probably took about 3 weeks to see changes. Keeping it fun is

important. You might want to switch from chips that are so visual to

keeping track on a card which you retain. We would leave a blank card out

so the kids could refer to it and the whole family contract if they had

questions. Consistency is very important. It will take a while for the

kids to adjust. My kids had lots of issues about fairness too. We had

some behaviors which were to be rewarded which were only applicable to our

son with OCD so the deck was a bit stacked.

For Kelsey to get well she needs to face her obsessions. HOpefully this

one is not at the top of her hierarchy or she might find it too

discouraging. Do you have an idea of how upsetting this obsession is

compared to her other ones? If this obsession is low to intermediate in

time you will see her actually get a bit better as she is facing her fear

and obsession about the chips/points.

Hang in there modify things to fit your family, try to be consistent

as that is the best way to deal with fairness concerns, try to avoid too

much bargaining outside of setting up the contract initially, and let us

all know how things go. Take care, good luck, aloha, Kathy

At 09:19 PM 4/20/99 -0700, you wrote:

>From: Roman <ChrisRoman@...>

>

>>Hi Kathy,

>

>You wrote:

>>

>>You are right, these behavior mod programs focusing on positive behaviors

>>work so well that it makes one feel ridiculous that one didn't figure it

>>out earlier. We did notice it worked a lot faster with our non-OCD child

>>than our OCDer though.

>>

>Well, the initial excitement about the chip system has now worn off and the

>kids are devastated (i.e. reduced to tears) when they lose a chip. I think

>Kelsey may have an issue with scrupulosity so of course she can't stand the

>fact that her brother might have " more chips " than she does or earn a

>reward when she can't. We're spending an inordinate time obsessing about

>getting chips around here and what's fair. I like the immediacy of the

>rewards and the ability for me to have a consequence instead of yelling.

>But it's kind of a mixed bag.

>

>What was your experience early on vs. over time using this sytem with your

>OCD son, Kathy? Should I stick with it awhile as others on this list have

>recommended for behavior mod programs?

>

>in San Diego

>

>

>>

>>At 06:45 PM 4/18/99 -0700, you wrote:

>>>From: Roman <ChrisRoman@...>

>>>

>>>Yes, I will be at OCSDA also on Saturday only (driving up and back from San

>>>Diego) and would like to get together.

>>>

>>>San Diego Chris

>>>

>>>P.S. Implemented the poker chip trading idea and you ought to see my house!

>>>Kids asking if they could fold the laundry for me, sweep the back deck, and

>>>pointing out how they didn't yell and worked things out between them!!

>>>Don't know if it'll last, but the positive attitude is refreshing around

>>>here! Most importantly, they seem to feel genuinely good about getting

>>>strokes for good behavior and keep asking me if I'm proud of them.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>Share the wealth!

>>>http://www.ONElist.com

>>>Tell a friend about ONElist's 115,000 free e-mail communities!

>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>The is sponsored by the OCSDA. You may visit

>>their web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom

>>support at http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

>>>

>>>

>>

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>Tired of empty chat rooms and out of date bulletin boards?

>>http://www.ONElist.com

>>ONElist: Making the Internet Intimate

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>The is sponsored by the OCSDA. You may visit

>>their web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom

>>support at http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Has ONElist changed your life?

>http://www.ONElist.com

>Visit our homepage and share with us your experiences at ONElist of the Week!

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>The is sponsored by the OCSDA. You may visit

their web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom

support at http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

>

>

[Guest guest]

HI Shellie:

What you wrote about the therapist considering backing off is all too

familiar to me. I came to learn that this is a sign to find a new

therapist. Sorry to be so bold as to say this but it took me literally

thousands and thousands of dollars, many months, and many docs/therapists

to figure this out. CBT with E & RP is the first line treatment and it is

very easy to get sidetracked by other " issues " . In fact the March protocol

warns therapists against being distracted in this way. They might need to

take a new tack, customize things more towards Derrick's needs.

We also experienced the anger, violence, abuse. What helped us was to

learn and use a professional parenting plan as a complement to the CBT/E & RP

that Steve was doing with his doc and therapist. We had to change our

parenting considerably from laissez faire to more directive and this did

help Steve stay on track. It sent him a strong message that we were behind

him in his struggles with OCD although I can tell you that often I felt he

had no idea of that.

Derrick sounds like he has a lot of determination and that OCD is bossing

him around. Please tell him that other kids have been in the same place

and have learned to boss back OCD. It took Steve three tries at the March

protocol before he had any success, but now he knows if he bosses, he will

be in charge, if he gets fearful and gives an inch to OCD it will take

miles and miles. The path to this realization was long and arduous, and I

am sure it is one that Derrick will travel with your loving support and

committed professional support and guidance. Take care, aloha, Kathy (H)

kathyh@...

At 04:25 AM 02/08/2000 +0000, you wrote:

>From: " Shellie S " <seashellie87@...>

>

>thank you for responding. We had started Derrick on E & RP, but the therapist

>feels we should back up a bit as the dynamics of the household are falling

>apart. He is so wound up in his rituals that he becomes extremely angry, and

>starting to get violent..so back to the beginning. We have to get him back

>to where he realises im boss not OCD...thanks for your thoughts....Shellie

[Guest guest]

Hi Lori:

Sorry that things are tough on so many fronts. OCD really bosses the whole

family around in a most annoying manner.

re: meds. YOu might want to discuss increasing the meds with Krysti's

P-doc.

According to the OCF web site the children's dosage range for Zoloft is

50-150 and for adults they suggest up to 200 mg, and I know adults taking

250mg plus. Kids often take the full adult dosage so 100 mg may not be

high enough to help with Krysti's OCD. Only trying a high dosage for 10-12

weeks will give you the answer though.

re: siblings. This is such a tough one. Siblings tend to get left in the

dust by the demands of OCD. Education and inclusion in problem solving has

helped our non-OCD son deal with his brother's illness. He has had some

very sad times where he would break down in deep sobbing just looking at

pictures of the two of them as babies and see happy, innocent, pre-OCD

times. Also he has sometimes been the only one in the house with enough

presence of mind to deal effectively with his brother's suicide attempts.

I feel very guilty about the effect this may have had on him, and it has

definitely increased his anxiety.

It is very important to find separate quality time for our non-OCD

children. I have also apologized to my son for the cruelty of fate that

had him born into this family with its many problems. Right now he seems

happy with the balance between benefits and costs. Listening to them is

very important, let them talk about how they feel, what their dreams are,

give them your undivided attention.

We also experienced some dreadful acting out of our non-OCD son. This

happened around family therapy visits associated with the March protocol.

It was so awful, he was beating his head against the door and causing major

disruption. Everything felt so dysfunctional and I wanted to get the

videotape they were doing and save it for his future partner so they would

know his " warts " . It was overwhelming to see everyone fall apart at the

same time. We found the professional parenting plan with consistent limit

setting was very helpful in giving our non-OCD son a sense his behavior was

as much a focus as the OCD behaviors of his brother.

Another problem was his worries about getting OCD once he read about the

genetic component of the disorder. I just gave him the stats from research

studies on the incidence in first degree relatives and encouraged him to

hang in there. Inside I was terrified his anxiety would skyrocket and we

would have more problems. In fact he does have a phobia about heights and

Steve loves this as he kids his brother unrelentingly when he freaks out at

glass elevators, tall mountain cliffs, etc. Steve tells his brother to

boss back and expose himself to his fears!

You are so right, teenage behavior makes dealing with OCD even more tricky.

Steve is constantly being put down verbally by his older brother and it is

hard not to step in and protect him. We just tell them they need to work

things out between them and we expect them to show their love for each

other in all ways and that they are the only brothers they will ever have.

When Steve was very ill, his brother was like us, walking on egg shells not

rocking the boat, so I remind myself that a little brotherly conflict

represents Steve being a lot better and able to deal with normal sibling

interactions.

Hang in there Lori, keep taking care of yourself, good luck, aloha, kathy (H)

kathyh@...

>>From: volley4@...

>>

>>to Kathy,

>>I have really learned a lot about myself this week. I realize finally

>that my emotions only tend to escalate my

>>daughters anxiety. She went thru a little tirate in the bathroom after

>hearing me cry. Well that did it for me.

>>Time to get a hold of my self pity and think of her. I have been so busy

>wallowing in my grief, which I know is

>>natural. Maybe I am only getting this for a day or so, but I am only

>compounding the problem. (duh) A lot of her

>>old rituals have cropped up since her leg surgery. The Dr's upped her

>zoloft to 100 mg and .5 of Klonopin. I

>>think she is more tired now and her temper flares easier. She is not the

>happy girl that started zoloft b/4 her

>>surgery and it was really working. My husband just had his knee

>reconstructed 4 days ago. I think I have been a

>>little overwhelmed w/ family crisis.

>>Today my 18 daughter came home crying and my ocd daughter cried at school.

> I guess they blew up over Krysti is

>>petrified of being late to school and my older daughter thought she would

>treat her to donuts. Well this backfired

>>and the oldest told Krysti " this is why I am moving out-I can't take you

>anymore " . I am back to work, leaving

>>hubby home to mend today and this happens. I didn't know until tonight.

>My older daughter just wants to run and

>>get away. This is a lot of teen behaviour and a lot of just not really

>knowing ocd. How do you handle the

>>siblings to be willing to work on ocd, not push each other away. You know

>each day brings on a new challenge. I

>>don't have time to be upset so much, because I bet I am missing a lot of

>problems that make her ocd worse. I now

>>have figured out that I CAN'T FIX IT! This has always been my problem-I

>always think I can fix things (bills,

>>clothes, fights etc) Well once I figured out I can't fix, now I have to

>learn to live w/ it.

>>Any advice on the meds and or the sister thing. Could use a little help'

>>Lori-ca

[Guest guest]

Lori:

I have two NT teenagers and an 11 yo OCDer. While I'm not entirely sure

what my 16 yo son thinks about his brother's OCD, both he and his 18 yo

sister have been very supportive of Aiden. During my daughter's junior

year, she had to give an informational speech and chose to present about

OCD. She even went as far (with our permission) as to share that her

brother has OCD. Both older kids have participated in family discussions

about OCD and how that has impacted family dynamics. For us it is

fortunate that they are mature enough to understand that he requires high

maintenance and there isn't always enough energy to go around. This

doesn't mean that they are always happy about the situation or about some

of the OCD demon's habits. I would recommend your older daughter read

Kissing Doorknobs. She might want to read some information from the OCF,

too. There was an article a while back in one of the teen magazines about

a girl with OCD. I could see if Caitlin possibly still has it, xerox it

and mail it to you if you like. Caitlin would probably even email your

daughter. Let me know off list.

My husband has OCD, too, and there are times when we feel like a very

dysfunctional family. OCD demons everywhere, PMS and testosterone storms,

financial worries, you name it. But I try to keep my eye on my

Englebreit coffee mug with the motto: " Let's put the fun back in

dysfunctional " . I tend to be a proactive person, but periodically I feel

just as you do. Then I climb back out of the pit and go on. Sooner or

later the sun comes back out -- even in Cleveland.

Jule

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

Did he show any improvement ever, or did you change meds? I am feeling

very frustrated here because it has been over two months and there is no

effect. This kid could use a big boost! We see his psych next week (no

response to my phone call...guess he figures he will deal with it when we

come in). My biggest fear is we will dink around for months with Paxil, then

find it is useless, so then go on to try something else with the whole

rigamarole again. Meanwhile his quality of life sinks lower and lower. I

remember what you said about not starting on too high a dose, but this snails

pace is exasperating. Kvetch Kvetch Kvetch ;-)

Elaine

[Guest guest]

HI Elaine:

Your post underlies the importance of doing CBT. Usually meds,even when

they get a good response only get 40-50% improvement and come with some

side effects, even if these are manageable.

Steve has been on Paxil since November 1997. He did show improvement after

12 weeks at 60 mg. His then p-doc titrated him up very rapidly from 10 to

40 mg in two weeks and then to 60 mg. He had a very hard time with side

effects. His first round of CBT was underway after about 10 weeks and that

is when we started to notice real improvement. The CBT was not going very

well, I am not sure that he was doing better because the depression was so

improved.

Finding a CBT therapist who is knowledgeable and experience holds out the

most promise for our kids. Good luck, take care, aloha, Kathy (H)

kathyh@...

At 11:46 PM 04/13/2000 EDT, you wrote:

>Kathy,

>

> Did he show any improvement ever, or did you change meds? I am feeling

>very frustrated here because it has been over two months and there is no

>effect. This kid could use a big boost! We see his psych next week (no

>response to my phone call...guess he figures he will deal with it when we

>come in). My biggest fear is we will dink around for months with Paxil,

then

>find it is useless, so then go on to try something else with the whole

>rigamarole again. Meanwhile his quality of life sinks lower and lower. I

>remember what you said about not starting on too high a dose, but this

snails

>pace is exasperating. Kvetch Kvetch Kvetch ;-)

>

>Elaine

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy,

Thanks for you response to my concerns about my son's future and his ability

to boss back his OCD(hoarding) on his own. In reading your response, I saw

that this is the first step..the fact that he IS able to do it even if it is

at my suggestion and as he gets stronger and continues with his CBT and ER & P,

it will " come together. "

It is great to hear that your son does his exposure therapy on his own during

the day and that he tells you about it. I suspect that my son is doing this

as well, a lot more that I know, since he comes home from school totally

spent and sometimes sleeps for a few hours. He doesn't talk to me about what

is going on with his OCD in school so he either handles it himself and is

fine or he crashes and then, it comes out.

Noelle

[Guest guest]

Kathy -- great to hear about a peaceful nights sleep for Tally!!

God Bless,

Sandi A. (Ashli's mom)

[Guest guest]

I think I may have found the CULPRIT to increase in seizures for ? What

do you think? He is already getting the SNT p5p with folic, the TMG with

folic, could this be too much for ? He also seems to have the B12

deficiency. Any ideas?

kathy

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Folid acid supplementation should always include vitamin B12

>supplementation because folic acid can mask a vitamin B12 deficiency.

>The danger is that while folic acid reverses macrocytic anemia, it

>does not prevent or reverse the neurological symptoms and nerve

>damage caused by a vitamin B12 deficiency.

>

>Folic acid itself, in high doses like 5-10 mg, may cause gas, nausea

>and loss of appetite. Epileptics should avoid high doses and use

>caution, because occasionally it may cause an increase in seizures.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Basically after much investigation, my son reacted 11 days after a bad lot

pertussis DPT combo. He landed in ER with febrile convulsions, high pitch

screaming, internal temp of 105 and listless and almost encephalitically

involved for a good 2 weeks. Soon after his speech regressed, eye contact,

all the baby language he had at that point was gone, he slipped into autism.

Then after having a couple more kids and having the P taken out of the DPT,

I gave my youngest daughter her vacc's, and within a month of her MMR

started noticing diahreeha, sleep problems, crankiness, and speech delays as

well. Much evidence is accumulating the the combo shots are culrpit, as

they are the LEAST studied long term on their ill effects. And of late, the

mercury and aluminum is above EPA standard of what is recognized as safe for

heavy metal exposure. Most if not all neurlogical symptoms can be started

or aggregated by these shots. Kids are also getting chrons like diseases

from them even panecephalitis and other things are suspected, even SIDS. I

found the web access to this very important paper....click on below and

carry a hanky.

Kathy

>>access at

>>http://www.geo-mark.com/docs/autismandmercury4400.rtf

>>If you cannot download click on URL

>>AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>

[ ] Kathy

>Hi Kathy,

>Do you have your childrens story posted? I read an archive post that

>said 2 of your children were injured by vaccines. I would like to

>hear what happened if you don't mind.

>Thanks,

>

>

>

>

>_

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kathy, aren't they all " bad lots " ??

>Basically after much investigation, my son reacted 11 days after a bad lot

>pertussis DPT combo. He landed in ER with febrile convulsions, high pitch

>screaming, internal temp of 105 and listless and almost encephalitically

>involved for a good 2 weeks. Soon after his speech regressed, eye contact,

>all the baby language he had at that point was gone, he slipped into autism.

>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps that is the real truth . I just know that it was on a bad lot

list, knowingly was killing people and maiming them, but heh, we'll still

distribute it heh? Any kids with underdeveloped immune systems, illnesses,

predispositions for reactions (which are rarely known to us at the time of

shots) are going to have a " bad lot " no matter how you look at it. From the

mercury to the aluminum to the aborted tissue to the DNA changing

carcinogenetic substances and toxoids, but heh, let's put them into kids

anyway heh?

Kathy

Re: [ ] Kathy

>Kathy, aren't they all " bad lots " ??

>

>

>>Basically after much investigation, my son reacted 11 days after a bad lot

>>pertussis DPT combo. He landed in ER with febrile convulsions, high pitch

>>screaming, internal temp of 105 and listless and almost encephalitically

>>involved for a good 2 weeks. Soon after his speech regressed, eye

contact,

>>all the baby language he had at that point was gone, he slipped into

autism.

>>

>

>

>

>_

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy:

Where abouts Buffalo are ya? I'm in Orchard Park.

Penny

[Guest guest]

Lets us know how your batch comes out.

Terri

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy:

Aren't you in Niagra Falls? I'm in Orchard Park - maybe we could get together

and I can work with you on CP.

Penny

When we have our gathering this summer, will someone be demonstrating how to

do CP. I am so frustrated with my soaps. I sat and made M & P last night, and

didn't even enjoy it. Kathy

[Guest guest]

Hi group.

My name is Kathy, and I live near Atlanta, Georgia. I am a 42 year old

female who has complained virtually all of my life (since about 13) of

fatigue. In the past five or so years, this condition has worsened, and I

have been to many doctors, including general practitioners, psychiatrists,

gynocologists (hormone questions?), etc., have had many tests performed

trying to pin point the cause of my fatigue, with the only result being

prescriptions written for depression and ADD. Since there seems to be no

diagnosis given for my fatigue, except for depression and ADD, I have been

on the appropriate meds for these conditions. However, as a lay person and

not a doctor, I KNOW THERE IS SOMETHING BESIDES DEPRESSION WRONG. I have

other symptoms which I will share if necessary. Also, both of my daughters

seem to have the fatigue factor in their everyday lives. Also, my mother

passed away one year ago after enduring 10 years of what was supposed to be

" alzheimer's " although I have my doubts because it advanced so

rapidly....within 9 months from first symptoms recognized she was absolutely

vegetative.

I am actually very happy to have found all of the information I have

concerning stealth viruses in that maybe this is the problem. So, what

would be the first thing you would do if you were me? I have just recently

had my annual physical with the blood and urine tests normally associated

with annual physicals. As usual, everything returned within normal ranges.

So, how do you explain being so tired ALL OF THE TIME? I wake up groggy and

extremely tired every day of my life. I envy those people who are up and at

it with such ease. Really. If I did not carry around with me a bottle of

adderall, I would end up asleep in some hidden corner everyday....as I used

to do before the adderall was prescribed. Not narcalepsy...just plain

tired...dragging and wanting to sleep all of the time. Again, what would

you do?

Hope to hear from ya'll soon.

Thanks for the ears.............

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[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy

I think it will help if you include what your other symptoms are.

Cindi

[Guest guest]

What do you mean by him having to have the big surgery? Be sure ti

fill me in so I can keep my father up to date.

Cuz

Re:

Just got news on my dad's stent. They are having problems with the size and said it is going to be another 90 days. I don't think he can wait that long, and the doctor said he will have to have the big surgery . I don't think his heart is going to be able to take this. I haven't told him yet, but I will have to go over there today and give him the bad news. I will let you know what is going on. kathyOur members maphttp://.homestead.com/locations.htmlOur Message Boardhttp://www.voy.com/21568/Special Invite for membershttp://soapwerks.com/martinrectangle.htmAll posts to this list are copyrighted by post author. They may NOT be forwarded, copied, or used in anyway without the permission of the post author with the exception of answering posts to this list. Posts are personal opinions only.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the site. They had just what I was looking for. How do you

find all these sites. They are sending me a catalogue, so I am sure I will

find a lot more that I need. I don't know what to do about my order from

Stuff likes. I think I will have to call the credit card people and

see what they say. Thanks again. Kathy

[Guest guest]

Kathy

As far as the cello bags, are you all set? I think I saw where

Theresa offered to sell you some. Let me know if you still

need them and I'll check some of my resources I have bookmarked.

Re: Southwest Basics -

Thanks , I order 100 of them. They were pretty cheap. Even there lip balms were half the price as the other place. One more thing I need is those cello bags. Do you know of any place that sells them besides Stuffjulielikes. I really need them, and I don't want to wait any longer for that order. KathyOur members maphttp://.homestead.com/locations.htmlOur Message Boardhttp://www.voy.com/21568/Special Invite for membershttp://soapwerks.com/martinrectangle.htmAll posts to this list are copyrighted by post author. They may NOT be forwarded, copied, or used in anyway without the permission of the post author with the exception of answering posts to this list. Posts are personal opinions only.

[Guest guest]

Kathy I just emailed you the page from Nashville Wraps to check out. If it

says it's too large to download, just go into www.nashvillewraps.com and

look under cello in the listing on the left of the page.

Re: mary

I still need the bags , Terri had some, but they were a little too small for what I wanted them for. I would appreciate it if you could tell me where to get them. Thanks kathyOur members maphttp://.homestead.com/locations.htmlOur Message Boardhttp://www.voy.com/21568/Special Invite for membershttp://soapwerks.com/martinrectangle.htmAll posts to this list are copyrighted by post author. They may NOT be forwarded, copied, or used in anyway without the permission of the post author with the exception of answering posts to this list. Posts are personal opinions only.

[Guest guest]

Kathy , Nashville wraps is great place and very freindly. Good service.

Shaye

[Guest guest]

Kathy

Re: credit card That's why I asked you before

if you knew if your credit card had been charged yet. That's

the first thing you need to know. If it has been chg'd then

you'll have to file a "dispute" with the credit card company.

Then they will go back to the company you ordered from

and charge her back if she can't prove delivery.

Re: Kathy

Thanks for the site. They had just what I was looking for. How do you find all these sites. They are sending me a catalogue, so I am sure I will find a lot more that I need. I don't know what to do about my order from Stuff likes. I think I will have to call the credit card people and see what they say. Thanks again. KathyOur members maphttp://.homestead.com/locations.htmlOur Message Boardhttp://www.voy.com/21568/Special Invite for membershttp://soapwerks.com/martinrectangle.htmAll posts to this list are copyrighted by post author. They may NOT be forwarded, copied, or used in anyway without the permission of the post author with the exception of answering posts to this list. Posts are personal opinions only.