Guest guest Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 You are using a tiny, unrepresentative [and thus flawed] sample. Try a sample of PhD's in the hard sciences and see how many support Brownstein and Optimox. .. .. > > Posted by: " Gracia " circe@... > <mailto:circe@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Mineral%20deficiencies%20and%20hy\ pothyroidism> > graciabee <graciabee> > > > Tue Nov 4, 2008 9:45 am (PST) > > > I have actually found the reverse to be true! the most brilliant ppl > are using iodine. > Gracia > (both of my parents were considered geniuses) > > You certainly have a right to your opinion. However, among the > intelligent and educated people of the entire world it is Optimox and > Dr. Brownstein who are totally devoid of respect. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 Hi, Rick. If you want to research yourself just put " hair analysis fraud " into Google and then determine whether any of the links appear to be valid. I suspect you will be convinced. But perhaps more convincing to you would be the message from Chuck, which I'm including in case you missed it: .. .. Quote: > > > Posted by: " gumboyaya@... " gumboyaya@... > <mailto:gumboyaya@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Mineral%20deficiencies%20and%20hypo\ thyroidism> > gumbo482001 <gumbo482001> > > > Tue Nov 4, 2008 1:29 pm (PST) > > Fragrance, > > I agree with . > > You wrote: > > > > Why do you think hair analysis is not reliable. > > Perhaps he was influenced by the American Medical Association's > Committee on Cutaneous Health and Cosmetics, which concluded in 1974, > that, > > " The state of health of the body may be entirely unrelated to the > physical and chemical condition of the hair . . . Although severe > deficiency states of an essential element are often associated with > low concentrations of the element in hair, there are no data that > indicate that low concentrations of an element signify low tissue > levels nor that high concentrations reflect high tissue stores. > Therefore . . . hair metal levels would rarely help a physician select > effective treatment. " Lazar P. Hair analysis: What does it tell us? > JAMA 229:1908-1909, 1974. > > In general, the mineral content of hair can be significantly affected > by shampoo, bleach, and hair dyes. No analytic technique can tell > whether an element came from your food or from something you put on > your head. > Further, most minerals can be affected by the color, diameter and rate > of growth of an individual's hair, the season of the year, the > geographic location, and the age and gender of the individual. > Consequently, no one has been able to standardize or measure normal > ranges for hair minerals. Since there are no reference ranges or > standards, none of the places that offer hair analysis can claim to > have compared to a published standard. > > Chuck .. .. End of quote. As you know, Chuck is a scientist; and he certainly can state it better than I. As a matter of fact he would be the perfect person to ask if cell walls are permeable to thyroid hormones in the blood. I may be mistaken, but I believe he was the source of my information. But if not blame me, not him... Perhaps more important in hair analysis than the fact that accurately measured results don't mean anything is the fact that the same sample sent to the same lab [as well as multiple labs] give widely varying results. So what you have are totally undependable results that would not mean anything even if they were consistent. You simply cannot make an intelligent and educated decision from such results. OTOH if you want to depend upon the placebo effect or psychological results of such quackery you might find them beneficial. As for this statement: >I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS. AS I MENTIONED ABOVE, MY INTRACELLULAR >MINERAL TESTS (NOT THROUGH HAIR ANALYSIS) DID NOT CORRELATE AT ALL >WITH STANDARD BLOOD MINERAL TESTS. .. .. If any hair analysis test results happen to agree with any accurate intracellular mineral tests the results will be astounding, and nothing more than coincidence. Rick, my reason for questioning test methods and results that either have no credible support or in fact are proven to be cons, quackery or simply unreliable is this: You cannot reliably treat ANY condition base upon erroneous data. I don't know the answers to why some people have major difficulties in getting help with hypothyroidism, but whatever is done needs to be based upon accurate data as far as possible. I'm sure that as a [former?] scientist you will agree. Best of luck, .. .. > Posted by: " richardtcbatty " rbatty@... > <mailto:rbatty@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Mineral%20deficiencies%20and%2\ 0hypothyroidism> > richardtcbatty <richardtcbatty> > > > Tue Nov 4, 2008 11:03 am (PST) > > , > > I've inserted my comments in CAPS within your post. > > Cheers, > > Rick > > > > > > I think there is no point in taking ANY test that cannot measure > what it > > presumes to measure in any kind of predictable way. > > BUT THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME, NOT ONLY WITH THYROID. I BELIEVE IT'S > WELL KNOWN THAT ONE CAN LOW MINERAL LEVELS IN THE BODY WITH NORMAL > > If you have EVER > > found any support in credible research for hair analysis for medical > > diagnostics I'd be interested in seeing it. There's no point in > > spending your money if the results are totally undependable. > > IN THEORY I AGREE AS I'VE BEEN A SCIENTIST AT A CERTAIN POINT IN MY > CAREER. BUT LACK OF CREDIBLE RESEARCH DOES NOT MEAN THAT RESULTS ARE > UNDEPENDABLE. THERE ARE ALWAYS THINGS WE HAVE YET TO DISCOVER AND > SOME OF US TURN TO UNPROVEN METHODS WHEN WE GET NO HELP FROM STANDARD > MEDICAL APPROACHES. > > > > It's true there are some percentage of hypothyroid patients who do not > > seem to do well with conventional allopathic treatment. However, even > > in those cases it's pointless to do a test upon whose results you > cannot > > depend. > > CAN YOU POINT US TO STUDIES THAT SHOW HAIR ANALYSIS IS UNDEPENDABLE? > I'M NOT SURE IT IS BUT AS I MENTIONED, SOME OF MY RESULTS DID > CORRELATE WITH INTRACELLULAR MINERAL TESTS WHICH THEMSELVES DID NOT AT > ALL CORRELATE WITH STANDARD BLOOD MINERAL TESTS. > > In such a case you're just as likely to take exactly the WRONG > > mineral as the right one. > > I AGREE, IF THE TEST IS UNDEPENDABLE. > > In any case I think you can get dependable > > blood mineral content from any competent lab. > > I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS. AS I MENTIONED ABOVE, MY INTRACELLULAR > MINERAL TESTS (NOT THROUGH HAIR ANALYSIS) DID NOT CORRELATE AT ALL > WITH STANDARD BLOOD MINERAL TESTS. > > > > As for thyroid hormones within cells it's my understanding [and I > may be > > wrong] that cell walls do not present ANY obstacle to same, and it > > that's accurate then the hormone concentration within the cell is MOL > > the same as outside the cell. > > WOW, I'D LIKE TO SEE PROOF OF THAT. WITHOUT SEARCHING THE NET, IT > SEEMS TO ME THAT THE BODY IS SO DELICATELY BALANCED. I THINK WE KNOW > CELL WALLS CAN BE PERMEABLE TO DIFFERENT DEGREES FOR MINERALS SO WHY > NOT FOR HORMONES? IF PEOPLE SUCH AS MYSELF CAN TAKE HUGE DOSAGES OF > THYROID HORMONE WITHOUT HYPERTHYROID SYMPTOMS, IT SEEMS EITHER THE > HORMONE IS NOT GETTING INTO THE CELL OR NOT WORKING PROPERLY AT THE > RECEPTOR LEVEL. > > > > > As for why some percentage of people don't benefit for conventional > > treatment the short answer is I don't know. There is a least some > > anecdotal evidence that it MAY be related to damage caused by an > > extended period of untreated or undertreated hypothyroidism in some > > patients. Maybe some level of Myxedema coma? In which case perhaps > the > > damage would not be reversed soon after starting treatment, if at all. > > WE KNOW PETROLEUM PRODUCTS CAN IMITATE HORMONES IN THE BODY AND THUS > CAUSE HORMONAL PROBLEMS (E.G. BIG DROPS IN MEN'S SPERM LEVELS OVER THE > PAST 50 OR SO YEARS). I DON'T THINK IT'S HUGE LEAP OF FAITH TO THINK > THAT POLLUTANTS (INCLUDING PETROLEUM PRODUCTS AND TOXIC METALS) COULD > DAMAGE HORMONE RECEPTORS OR SOMEHOW PREVENT THE HORMONES FROM WORKING > PROPERLY. > > > > > Even the percentage of people who do not benefit from conventional > > treatment is hotly debated. From certain numbers available it appears > > to be under 5%, but lists such as this tend to indicate a much higher > > number. However, this list would tend to self select for same. > Many of > > those same people seem to benefit from some form of T3 such as Armour. > > WHATEVER THE %, THE KEY POINT IS THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO PRESENT > WITH HYPOTHYROID SYMPTOMS AND ARE NOT HELPED BY TRADITIONAL APPROACHES. > > > I short I don't have much of an answer for you except what I've already > > given: Whatever course you take and to whatever extent you depend upon > > medical tests they need to be tests that at least can measure what they > > purport to measure. Hair analysis sorely fails this criteria. > > IS THERE PROOF OF THIS? > > THANKS FOR THE DISCUSSION. AT ANY TIME IN HISTORY THERE IS STUFF WE > DON'T KNOW AND IT APPEARS THAT IS WHERE WE CERTAIN SETS OF HYPOTHYROID > SYMPTOMS... > > CHEERS, > > RICK > > > Best of luck, > > > > . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 You've pointed out a couple of the problems. One is shampoos, conditioners and whatever else is on the hair. The other problem is perhaps more difficult. If you have long hair, say 24 " long then the minerals deposited within the hair was established when the hair strand was about to emerge from your head. That had to be months ago. So you should get a completely different result from an accurate test if you sent in a sample cut close to your scalp unless nothing has changed in the intervening months. But since you cannot get any kind of consistent or reliable results it really doesn't matter. Flipping a coin would give you as much diagnostic help. .. .. > > Posted by: " fragrance_seen " fragrance_seen@... > <mailto:fragrance_seen@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Mineral%20deficiencies%20and\ %20hypothyroidism> > fragrance_seen <fragrance_seen> > > > Wed Nov 5, 2008 12:29 am (PST) > > > Sue, > > I forgot something else,, I am taking vitamins/iron every day now. Do > you think it is necessary to stop them for a few days to make sure the > accuracy. And I heard that I should use shampoo for children a few days > before cutting the samples. What did you do then? Thanks! > > Fragrance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 HI Fragrance, They test for Calcium Magnesium Sodium Potassium Iron Copper Manganese Zinc Chromium Selenium Phosophorus Lead Mercury Cadmium Arsenic Aluminum Nickel Cobalt Molybendum Lithium And Boron About 3 years ago, I had two HUGE metal/mercury filling removed  they were very very old and probably leaking into my body for some time, and the year I had them removed ³some² mercury did show up in my hair analysis and without my knowing it, or thinking of it, my nutritionist who consults with me, asked I had mercury fillings removed, which I did. They did not use a mouth guard or anything so even that ³little² bit had gotten into my body but the good thing is my body detoxes well and put it out... That¹s what hair analysis shows ‹what out bodies are putting OUT. My mercury levels are back down to normal. I have one large mercury filling left and I imagine when I do have that replaced, mercury will once again register... Only time will tell. Sue On 11/5/08 2:01 AM, " fragrance_seen " <fragrance_seen@...> wrote: > > > > > Hi, Sue. > > How many minerals/elements did you have them tested for hair analysis? > You said your mecury level is a little bit high?! How could it be!? > OMG...it is toxic to human health! > > Fragrance > > >> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Hi, Rick! >>> > > >>> > > I am considering to have a hair analysis, too. For nutriology, I > think >>> > > testing all vitamins is also important to find if we are vitamin >>> > > defficiencies. although vitamin tests are blood based. >>> > > >>> > > Fragrance >>> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 I have never been told to stop any of my vitimins/minerals but I can¹t see how that would hurt, probably a good idea. Also, they do say to use baby shampoo. I have been using the same people for 5 years and have been able to see what¹s going on with me as I make dietary, lifestyle and supplement changes via the hair testing. Why I even took it in the first place was cuz I just felt ³off² and wanted to see if anything ³weird² was going on with me and since doctors always said, other than hypoT and high cholesterol, you are basically healthy but I felt as if something was making me ³ill.² I did it out of curiosity and concern. When I saw my potassium was always so low and my ratios overall overall skewed, that made sense to me why I didn¹t feel as well as the traditional doctors felt I should. As I mentioned, I do believe the body strives to find balance, that¹s pretty natural and obvious but if we do things to hinder than then we don¹t really give it a fighting chance. I felt that ³just² because I had quit smoking and drinking, I did my part and that was that. But there was more going on, nutrients I was lacking in and lifestyle changes ‹ mainly increasing sleep and decreasing stress that I personally needed to see ³proof² of that really opened my eyes to how I was letting my body go so far off its natural course. Sue On 11/5/08 2:29 AM, " fragrance_seen " <fragrance_seen@...> wrote: > > > > > Sue, > > I forgot something else,, I am taking vitamins/iron every day now. Do > you think it is necessary to stop them for a few days to make sure the > accuracy. And I heard that I should use shampoo for children a few days > before cutting the samples. What did you do then? Thanks! > > Fragrance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 The only thing that is CRITICAL is that you cut the hair VERY VERY close to your scalp and only use the 1.5 Â2 inches CLOSEST TO YOUR SCALP so it shows what it going on with you NOW since hair grows about 1/2 inch per month. You can get pretty creative and find places to cut to hide the places you cut ‹ I wear my hair long so it¹s not a problem for me. They wash the hair before they test it also. Sue On 11/5/08 2:29 AM, " fragrance_seen " <fragrance_seen@...> wrote: > > > > > Sue, > > I forgot something else,, I am taking vitamins/iron every day now. Do > you think it is necessary to stop them for a few days to make sure the > accuracy. And I heard that I should use shampoo for children a few days > before cutting the samples. What did you do then? Thanks! > > Fragrance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 Sue... We are in the same boat. I have mercury filling in one of my tooth, too..So I am worried about the mercury toxin. Following is the link for the mercury levels in urine for more accuracy. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15611750 <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15611750> So after your fillings were removed, your mercury reading in hair analysis was down immediately..That's great...That showed that the hair analysis is useful/accurate somehow. Fragrance > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Hi, Rick! > >>> > > > >>> > > I am considering to have a hair analysis, too. For nutriology, I > > think > >>> > > testing all vitamins is also important to find if we are vitamin > >>> > > defficiencies. although vitamin tests are blood based. > >>> > > > >>> > > Fragrance > >>> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 Sue, They told me to cut the hair close to the scalp, too. But you know, I take the thyroid hormone treatment these months. And I found my hair grows crazily, much faster than ever before! I was planing to go to the barber's to have my hair cut again. I take iron supplement now to make the Ferritin level elevated, so I think it would affect the iron results somehow.. Fragrance > > > > > > > > > > > Sue, > > > > I forgot something else,, I am taking vitamins/iron every day now. Do > > you think it is necessary to stop them for a few days to make sure the > > accuracy. And I heard that I should use shampoo for children a few days > > before cutting the samples. What did you do then? Thanks! > > > > Fragrance > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 Thanks for the links. Wow, I never thought of how much the dentists themselves have been exposed to the mercury as well  4x as much as control subjects, makes sense. And they used hair, nails and urine to test. Yeah, out of 5 years of hair testing only that ONE TIME did I show more than a trace of mercury  and then it went right back down so one more to go... And I will be mercury free. I see no quakery involved in hair analysis at all. Like I say, I pay about 55 bucks for it, once a year and it includes a short consult. My low potassium showed up for years in my hair before it finally showed up in my blood this year. If there is a resource available that can uncover something conventional medicine cannot, we must at least give it a try if we are able and willing. IMHO. Sue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_analysis ³Analysis of hair samples has many advantages as a preliminary screening method for the presence of toxic substances deleterious to health after exposures in air, dust, sediment, soil and water, food and toxins in the environment. The advantages of hair analysis include the non-invasiveness, low cost and the ability to measure a large number of, potentially interacting, toxic and biologically essential elements. Hence, head hair analysis is now increasingly being used as a preliminary test to see whether individuals have absorbed poisons linked to behavioral or health problems. There appears to be genuine validity to the use of hair analysis in the measurement of life-long, or long-term heavy metal burden, if not the measurement of general elemental analysis. Several interesting studies including the analysis of Ludwig van Beethoven's hair have been conducted in conjunction with the National Institutes of Health, and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to name a few. A 1999 study on hair concentrations of calcium, iron, and zinc in pregnant women and effects of supplementation, it was concluded that " From the analyses, it was clear that hair concentrations of Ca, Fe, and Zn could reflect the effects of supplementation...Finally, it could be concluded that mineral element deficiencies might be convalesced by adequate compensations of mineral element nutrients.² On 11/5/08 8:34 PM, " fragrance_seen " <fragrance_seen@...> wrote: > > > > > Sue... > > We are in the same boat. I have mercury filling in one of my tooth, > too..So I am worried about the mercury toxin. Following is the link for > the mercury levels in urine for more accuracy. > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15611750 > <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15611750> > > So after your fillings were removed, your mercury reading in hair > analysis was down immediately..That's great...That showed that the hair > analysis is useful/accurate somehow. > > Fragrance > > >>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Hi, Rick! >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > I am considering to have a hair analysis, too. For nutriology, > I >>> > > think >>>>>>> > >>> > > testing all vitamins is also important to find if we are > vitamin >>>>>>> > >>> > > defficiencies. although vitamin tests are blood based. >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Fragrance >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2008 Report Share Posted November 6, 2008 ly, , he is getting results, and I really don't care how many " scientists " agree with him. I have little respect for many in the medical and scientific field these days because of the arrogance, lack of conscience, and lack of compassion displayed by so many in these fields. Results mean much more to me than scientific studies that may just be flawed so that they back up the authors suppositions or theories. I have seen too much of this type of thing in the so called " scientific " fields that I have lost much respect for the so-called peer review, which in itself is flawed. Your arguments just don't hold much water for me. Peer reveiw can mean just that - you submit to those whom you think will agree with you the most and ignore those who might disagree. I have seen THAT also. I am in hot disagreement with much of what is going on in the scientific community, and I no longer think that cases of paying doctors or scientists or other professionals to sign off or back up someones work is isolated. I watch this type of thing and it is becoming more common. The process itself is too flawed for me to any longer trust it.  F. http://catherineshypohelljourney.blogspot.com/ http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com www.naturalthyroidchoices.com http://www.breastcancerchoices.org/ www.thinkbeforeyoupink.org   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2008 Report Share Posted November 6, 2008 Well, using the AMA as a standard is not my idea of a high standard! A more prejudiced body of puffed up, egotistical, narrow-minded so called scientists is not my idea of any kind of fair review. The beginnings of this institution are highly suspect and their continued arrogance and profound ignorance in some matters is scary. They mislead, sometimes deliberately, and are hand in hand with the arrogant pharmaceutical companies, or should I say hand in pocket? F. http://catherineshypohelljourney.blogspot.com/ http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com www.naturalthyroidchoices.com http://www.breastcancerchoices.org/ www.thinkbeforeyoupink.org   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2008 Report Share Posted November 6, 2008 Hi , I don't know whether hair mineral analysis is valid or not. I do agree with you that it is best to treat based on sound scientific research if possible. There does seem to be some scientific knowledge of the roles of certain minerals in changing cell permeability and for the conversion of T4 to T3. So I think it is worth a shot to try eating a high potassium diet and add calcium, magnesium and selenium supplements. It's a fairly safe, low-cost and generally health-enhancing (i.e. eating a high potassium diet) trial. However, I would much prefer to have some scientific method to know the required amounts since minerals work in combination. I've been dealing with hypothyroid symptoms on a consistent basis now for over 15 years (and 23 years on and off). Even " Top Docs " have not been able to treat me successfully. I did have some success years ago with super high doses of T4 (which I arrived upon by researching the endocrinology journals) and then super high doses of time-release T3. So I've tried to act as a detective and my experience (and the experience of others on high doses) makes me think that there must be something going on regarding either the permeability of cells to thyroid hormone or difficulty in the conversion of T4 to T3 within the cell. It would be great to know if mineral deficiencies were the cause. Thanks, Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2008 Report Share Posted November 6, 2008 Rick, That¹s an interesting point. I have been treated with T4 and T3 for six years and I have yet to feel it¹s successful. My weight still won¹t come off as it should for my caloric intake/exercise regimen, my cholesterol continues to be whacky and I feel I would need those ³mega doses² you speak of but then I would get heart palps and for women I know, continual and prolonged use of high doses of thyroid meds leads to bone loss, I am guessing for men as well. The notion that maybe it¹s due to mineral imbalance is a worthy avenue to pursue and one I am working on. As mine get closer to where they need to be my body does seem to do more of what¹s it¹s supposed to. Sue On 11/6/08 11:57 AM, " richardtcbatty " <rbatty@...> wrote: > > I've been dealing with hypothyroid symptoms on a consistent basis now > for over 15 years (and 23 years on and off). Even " Top Docs " have not > been able to treat me successfully. I did have some success years ago > with super high doses of T4 (which I arrived upon by researching the > endocrinology journals) and then super high doses of time-release T3. > So I've tried to act as a detective and my experience (and the > experience of others on high doses) makes me think that there must be > something going on regarding either the permeability of cells to > thyroid hormone or difficulty in the conversion of T4 to T3 within the > cell. It would be great to know if mineral deficiencies were the cause. > > Thanks, > > Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 You have a totally distorted view of the peer review process. No reputable scientist will risk his total career by signing of on something that upon inspection will prove to be bogus. To do so would destroy him professionally, financially and personally. Professional peer review submits the work to the entire field for analysis, criticism and replication. The process itself is very good at weeding out any " bad apples " ; and in discouraging any nefarious practices. If you know of any less than honorable activities then kindly report them to the proper channels. Any scientist " selling " himself will find himself out of business. If you could quote a bit of the message to which you reply then I would know who " is getting results " . FAIK he may be scoring 100%; or basically no more than placebo, because I don't know to whom you have reference. You have your choice: You can make decisions based upon facts or upon quacks. Take your pick. .. .. > > Posted by: " F. " cccquilter@... > <mailto:cccquilter@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Mineral%20deficiencies%20and%20h\ ypothyroidism> > cccquilter <cccquilter> > > > Thu Nov 6, 2008 5:30 am (PST) > > ly, , he is getting results, and I really don't care how > many " scientists " agree with him. I have little respect for many in > the medical and scientific field these days because of the arrogance, > lack of conscience, and lack of compassion displayed by so many in > these fields. Results mean much more to me than scientific studies > that may just be flawed so that they back up the authors suppositions > or theories. I have seen too much of this type of thing in the so > called " scientific " fields that I have lost much respect for the > so-called peer review, which in itself is flawed. Your arguments just > don't hold much water for me. Peer reveiw can mean just that - you > submit to those whom you think will agree with you the most and ignore > those who might disagree. I have seen THAT also. I am in hot > disagreement with much of what is going on in the scientific > community, and I no longer think that cases of paying doctors or > scientists or other > professionals to sign off or back up someones work is isolated. I > watch this type of thing and it is becoming more common. The process > itself is too flawed for me to any longer trust it. > > > > F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 In the larger view my opinion and yours mean little or nothing. Unfounded and baseless charges of arrogance, narrow-mindedness, stupidity and so on aimed at those of demonstrated accomplishment, education and intellect do not enhance the reputation of the accuser. I will have to accept that you have a completely different world view than I. I can live with that. .. .. > > Posted by: " F. " cccquilter@... > <mailto:cccquilter@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Mineral%20deficiencies%20and%20h\ ypothyroidism> > cccquilter <cccquilter> > > > Thu Nov 6, 2008 5:36 am (PST) > > Well, using the AMA as a standard is not my idea of a high standard! A > more prejudiced body of puffed up, egotistical, narrow-minded so > called scientists is not my idea of any kind of fair review. The > beginnings of this institution are highly suspect and their continued > arrogance and profound ignorance in some matters is scary. They > mislead, sometimes deliberately, and are hand in hand with the > arrogant pharmaceutical companies, or should I say hand in pocket? > > F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 There is IMHO a solid scientific idea behind the assertion that certain chemicals or minerals found in the hair reflect conditions that exist [or at one time existed] in the body. But AFAIK there has never been any research that established any standards or guidelines as to what these findings mean WRT health diagnostics. They may well serve as an indicator, but what are they indicating? Without standards you're shooting in the dark even if you were able to get consistent results. And you WOULD be able to at least get consistent results if you were dealing with a reputable, quality lab. Unfortunately, as there are no standards for diagnostic results the field has attracted many con artists who use it to either sell questionable products to gullible people; or simple to sell another quack product/service. As long as the same sample sent in under different names gives very widely varying results you're quite simply dealing with a con artist or quack. If you're dealing with a reputable lab that gives consistent results you would at least have some kind of guideline; but without standards you're still on you own as to what the results mean. I'm sorry you're one of the group who have difficulty getting results from conventional medical practices. We've heard from a lot of those here. I often feel guilty that I am not among that group; although I cannot say I'm sorry for that fact. I'm lucky in that I have no symptoms on nothing but Synthroid. I know very little about problems with T4 to T3 conversion beyond the fact that it probably occurs. Nor am I educated WRT binding or other T4 [or T3] utilization problems. You no doubt know far more than I about that. You may be correct to guess that possibly some kind of mineral imbalance or deficiency may be involved. I certainly wish you the best in your efforts to find a solution to your health problems. My negative posts re: hair analysis are simply to alert you [and others] to the con artists who prey upon the sick, desperate, ofter poor and too often ill informed. Such " practitioners " cannot have any benefit beyond placebo, and are likely to cause more harm than good. Again, best of luck. Be sure to deal with a reputable lab; not some quack outfit. And let us know what you find out. .. .. > Posted by: " richardtcbatty " rbatty@... > <mailto:rbatty@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Mineral%20deficiencies%20and%2\ 0hypothyroidism> > richardtcbatty <richardtcbatty> > > > Thu Nov 6, 2008 9:57 am (PST) > > Hi , > > I don't know whether hair mineral analysis is valid or not. I do > agree with you that it is best to treat based on sound scientific > research if possible. > > There does seem to be some scientific knowledge of the roles of > certain minerals in changing cell permeability and for the conversion > of T4 to T3. So I think it is worth a shot to try eating a high > potassium diet and add calcium, magnesium and selenium supplements. > It's a fairly safe, low-cost and generally health-enhancing (i.e. > eating a high potassium diet) trial. However, I would much prefer to > have some scientific method to know the required amounts since > minerals work in combination. > > I've been dealing with hypothyroid symptoms on a consistent basis now > for over 15 years (and 23 years on and off). Even " Top Docs " have not > been able to treat me successfully. I did have some success years ago > with super high doses of T4 (which I arrived upon by researching the > endocrinology journals) and then super high doses of time-release T3. > So I've tried to act as a detective and my experience (and the > experience of others on high doses) makes me think that there must be > something going on regarding either the permeability of cells to > thyroid hormone or difficulty in the conversion of T4 to T3 within the > cell. It would be great to know if mineral deficiencies were the cause. > > Thanks, > > Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 I was gonna say this, but you beat me to it. Sue On 11/6/08 7:35 AM, " F. " <cccquilter@...> wrote: > > Well, using the AMA as a standard is not my idea of a high standard! A more > prejudiced body of puffed up, egotistical, narrow-minded so called scientists > is not my idea of any kind of fair review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2008 Report Share Posted November 8, 2008 Sue, The bone loss one is interesting. I took for years high enough doses of thyroid meds to suppress my TSH but at age 49 a bone scan indicated I had the bones of a 29-yr old - but I run every day, just slower and shorter than I would like due to weak muscles and other symptoms from what appears to by hypothyroidism. Dr. Walter Bortz at Stanford believes osteoporosis is a disuse disease. If mineral deficiencies are present and cause one to be effectively hypothyroid, it would be a better way to treat, however, than taking large doses of thyroid meds. Good luck, Rick > > > > > I've been dealing with hypothyroid symptoms on a consistent basis now > > for over 15 years (and 23 years on and off). Even " Top Docs " have not > > been able to treat me successfully. I did have some success years ago > > with super high doses of T4 (which I arrived upon by researching the > > endocrinology journals) and then super high doses of time-release T3. > > So I've tried to act as a detective and my experience (and the > > experience of others on high doses) makes me think that there must be > > something going on regarding either the permeability of cells to > > thyroid hormone or difficulty in the conversion of T4 to T3 within the > > cell. It would be great to know if mineral deficiencies were the cause. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rick > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2008 Report Share Posted November 8, 2008 Hi , I am taking a set of supplements that would not be too different from what any of a multiple of sources might suggest as a healthy plan. There is balance between the antagonist minerals so I'm not worried about trying this. It's also pretty well supported by the intracellular mineral tests I've had done. The move to an even healthier diet can only help too. I'm just so very frustrated with getting no results from regular docs (including several from Shomon's list). I think there is something going on that goes beyond even the more alternative approaches like Armour. Thanks, Rick > > There is IMHO a solid scientific idea behind the assertion that certain > chemicals or minerals found in the hair reflect conditions that exist > [or at one time existed] in the body. But AFAIK there has never been > any research that established any standards or guidelines as to what > these findings mean WRT health diagnostics. They may well serve as an > indicator, but what are they indicating? Without standards you're > shooting in the dark even if you were able to get consistent results. > > And you WOULD be able to at least get consistent results if you were > dealing with a reputable, quality lab. Unfortunately, as there are no > standards for diagnostic results the field has attracted many con > artists who use it to either sell questionable products to gullible > people; or simple to sell another quack product/service. As long as the > same sample sent in under different names gives very widely varying > results you're quite simply dealing with a con artist or quack. If > you're dealing with a reputable lab that gives consistent results you > would at least have some kind of guideline; but without standards you're > still on you own as to what the results mean. > > I'm sorry you're one of the group who have difficulty getting results > from conventional medical practices. We've heard from a lot of those > here. I often feel guilty that I am not among that group; although I > cannot say I'm sorry for that fact. I'm lucky in that I have no > symptoms on nothing but Synthroid. > > I know very little about problems with T4 to T3 conversion beyond the > fact that it probably occurs. Nor am I educated WRT binding or other T4 > [or T3] utilization problems. You no doubt know far more than I about > that. You may be correct to guess that possibly some kind of mineral > imbalance or deficiency may be involved. I certainly wish you the best > in your efforts to find a solution to your health problems. My negative > posts re: hair analysis are simply to alert you [and others] to the con > artists who prey upon the sick, desperate, ofter poor and too often ill > informed. Such " practitioners " cannot have any benefit beyond placebo, > and are likely to cause more harm than good. > > Again, best of luck. Be sure to deal with a reputable lab; not some > quack outfit. And let us know what you find out. > > > . > . > > > > Posted by: " richardtcbatty " rbatty@... > > <mailto:rbatty@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Mineral%20deficiencies%20and%20hypothyroid\ ism> > > richardtcbatty <richardtcbatty> > > > > > > Thu Nov 6, 2008 9:57 am (PST) > > > > Hi , > > > > I don't know whether hair mineral analysis is valid or not. I do > > agree with you that it is best to treat based on sound scientific > > research if possible. > > > > There does seem to be some scientific knowledge of the roles of > > certain minerals in changing cell permeability and for the conversion > > of T4 to T3. So I think it is worth a shot to try eating a high > > potassium diet and add calcium, magnesium and selenium supplements. > > It's a fairly safe, low-cost and generally health-enhancing (i.e. > > eating a high potassium diet) trial. However, I would much prefer to > > have some scientific method to know the required amounts since > > minerals work in combination. > > > > I've been dealing with hypothyroid symptoms on a consistent basis now > > for over 15 years (and 23 years on and off). Even " Top Docs " have not > > been able to treat me successfully. I did have some success years ago > > with super high doses of T4 (which I arrived upon by researching the > > endocrinology journals) and then super high doses of time-release T3. > > So I've tried to act as a detective and my experience (and the > > experience of others on high doses) makes me think that there must be > > something going on regarding either the permeability of cells to > > thyroid hormone or difficulty in the conversion of T4 to T3 within the > > cell. It would be great to know if mineral deficiencies were the cause. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rick > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2008 Report Share Posted November 8, 2008 Hi Rick, I am hoping my bone scan won¹t show any loss -- I am pretty active but by no means a ³runner² status I know I am low in Vitamin D so I supplement that now  I have read somewhere around 80% of Americans are Vitamin D deficient and have no idea  it¹s not normally tested but soon will be. I asked for the test because my 20 year old son who runs every day, outside, in the sun and without a shirt in the summer had LOW Vitamin D. I, who work indoors all day and does not like the sun would likely be short in Vitamin D and I was  mine was 20 with 32 being the lowest acceptable level. I take 1000 mg a day but if my bone scan shows bone loss I imagine I will have to up that as well as the Calcium I started taking as well. Minerals just don¹t get tested on any real level that I am aware of unless one has extreme enough imbalances to show symptoms. I am working continually on balancing mine and plan to do a hair test in the next couple weeks since I have made a lot of dietary and lifestyle changes in the past six months. Sue On 11/8/08 9:39 AM, " richardtcbatty " <rbatty@...> wrote: > > > > Sue, > > The bone loss one is interesting. I took for years high enough doses > of thyroid meds to suppress my TSH but at age 49 a bone scan indicated > I had the bones of a 29-yr old - but I run every day, just slower and > shorter than I would like due to weak muscles and other symptoms from > what appears to by hypothyroidism. Dr. Walter Bortz at Stanford > believes osteoporosis is a disuse disease. > > If mineral deficiencies are present and cause one to be effectively > hypothyroid, it would be a better way to treat, however, than taking > large doses of thyroid meds. > > Good luck, > > Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 Rick you have got to try Iodoral 50--100mg plus ATP cofactors and companion nutrients. it's really good stuff. http://www.naturalthyroidchoices.com Gracia Hi , I am taking a set of supplements that would not be too different from what any of a multiple of sources might suggest as a healthy plan. There is balance between the antagonist minerals so I'm not worried about trying this. It's also pretty well supported by the intracellular mineral tests I've had done. The move to an even healthier diet can only help too. I'm just so very frustrated with getting no results from regular docs (including several from Shomon's list). I think there is something going on that goes beyond even the more alternative approaches like Armour. Thanks, Rick > > There is IMHO a solid scientific idea behind the assertion that certain > chemicals or minerals found in the hair reflect conditions that exist > [or at one time existed] in the body. But AFAIK there has never been > any research that established any standards or guidelines as to what > these findings mean WRT health diagnostics. They may well serve as an > indicator, but what are they indicating? Without standards you're > shooting in the dark even if you were able to get consistent results. > > And you WOULD be able to at least get consistent results if you were > dealing with a reputable, quality lab. Unfortunately, as there are no > standards for diagnostic results the field has attracted many con > artists who use it to either sell questionable products to gullible > people; or simple to sell another quack product/service. As long as the > same sample sent in under different names gives very widely varying > results you're quite simply dealing with a con artist or quack. If > you're dealing with a reputable lab that gives consistent results you > would at least have some kind of guideline; but without standards you're > still on you own as to what the results mean. > > I'm sorry you're one of the group who have difficulty getting results > from conventional medical practices. We've heard from a lot of those > here. I often feel guilty that I am not among that group; although I > cannot say I'm sorry for that fact. I'm lucky in that I have no > symptoms on nothing but Synthroid. > > I know very little about problems with T4 to T3 conversion beyond the > fact that it probably occurs. Nor am I educated WRT binding or other T4 > [or T3] utilization problems. You no doubt know far more than I about > that. You may be correct to guess that possibly some kind of mineral > imbalance or deficiency may be involved. I certainly wish you the best > in your efforts to find a solution to your health problems. My negative > posts re: hair analysis are simply to alert you [and others] to the con > artists who prey upon the sick, desperate, ofter poor and too often ill > informed. Such " practitioners " cannot have any benefit beyond placebo, > and are likely to cause more harm than good. > > Again, best of luck. Be sure to deal with a reputable lab; not some > quack outfit. And let us know what you find out. > > > . > . > > > > Posted by: " richardtcbatty " rbatty@... > > <mailto:rbatty@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Mineral%20deficiencies%20and%20hypothyroid\ ism> > > richardtcbatty <richardtcbatty> > > > > > > Thu Nov 6, 2008 9:57 am (PST) > > > > Hi , > > > > I don't know whether hair mineral analysis is valid or not. I do > > agree with you that it is best to treat based on sound scientific > > research if possible. > > > > There does seem to be some scientific knowledge of the roles of > > certain minerals in changing cell permeability and for the conversion > > of T4 to T3. So I think it is worth a shot to try eating a high > > potassium diet and add calcium, magnesium and selenium supplements. > > It's a fairly safe, low-cost and generally health-enhancing (i.e. > > eating a high potassium diet) trial. However, I would much prefer to > > have some scientific method to know the required amounts since > > minerals work in combination. > > > > I've been dealing with hypothyroid symptoms on a consistent basis now > > for over 15 years (and 23 years on and off). Even " Top Docs " have not > > been able to treat me successfully. I did have some success years ago > > with super high doses of T4 (which I arrived upon by researching the > > endocrinology journals) and then super high doses of time-release T3. > > So I've tried to act as a detective and my experience (and the > > experience of others on high doses) makes me think that there must be > > something going on regarding either the permeability of cells to > > thyroid hormone or difficulty in the conversion of T4 to T3 within the > > cell. It would be great to know if mineral deficiencies were the cause. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rick > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 7:53 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 ????? it doesn't matter how many support Brownstein! it matters that ppl like myself are well b/c of him. eventually the patient will know more than the doctor. Gracia You are using a tiny, unrepresentative [and thus flawed] sample. Try a sample of PhD's in the hard sciences and see how many support Brownstein and Optimox. . . > Recent Activity a.. 13New Members Visit Your Group Health Heartburn or Worse What symptoms are most serious? Meditation and Lovingkindness A Group to share and learn. Sitebuilder Build a web site quickly & easily with Sitebuilder. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1769 - Release Date: 11/5/2008 7:17 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 I just don't understand how you can recommend something to someone that has a small but none zero probability of side effects... such as death. .. .. > Posted by: " Gracia " circe@... > <mailto:circe@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Mineral%20deficiencies%20and%20hy\ pothyroidism> > graciabee <graciabee> > > > Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:27 am (PST) > > > Rick > you have got to try Iodoral 50--100mg plus ATP cofactors and companion > nutrients. it's really good stuff. > http://www.naturalthyroidchoices.com > <http://www.naturalthyroidchoices.com> > Gracia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 b/c it isn't true. it's total myth you actually endorse a belief system not science. Gracia I just don't understand how you can recommend something to someone that has a small but none zero probability of side effects... such as death. . . > Recent Activity a.. 10New Members Visit Your Group Health Achy Joint? Common arthritis myths debunked. Meditation and Lovingkindness A Group to share and learn. McEnroe on Join him for the 10 Day Challenge. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 7:53 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Gracia, Thanks for the suggestion. I know you feel Iodoral has helped you. However, I have no basis to know whether it would be helpful or harmful for me. It would be a shot in the dark (although I've tried a few of those over the years). I'm going to try the mineral supplementation for now. The fact that only high dosages of thyroid meds have worked for me in the past (when they have worked) supports the hypothesis that mineral deficiencies might be preventing hormone from entering the cells and / or inhibiting conversion from T4 to T3. Cheers, Rick > > > Rick > you have got to try Iodoral 50--100mg plus ATP cofactors and companion nutrients. it's really good stuff. > http://www.naturalthyroidchoices.com > Gracia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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