Kidney Stones

[Guest guest]

Judith,

So sorry that you are going thru this pain. I seem to remember that

lithotripsy (sp?) is an alternative to other more invasive methods of getting

rid of kidney stones. This was news about fifteen years ago when I was

working as a temp nurse at Mass General Hosp. I don't know if the treatment

has gone mainstream or was not effective and abandoned. The method is using

sound waves to break up the stones. The machine was massive and very

impressive, I went to a lecture on the new method, but that was my only

contact or information that I ever received.

This may be an alternative to look into, if I recall you live in or near a

major city, so if this treatment is in current use the larger hospitals near

you may have this expensive machine. I believe that the treatment was

supposed to be cost effective and there was little or no recovery time needed.

Hope this helps.

Barb

<< ubject: Re: Kidney stones -- treatment issues

This weekend, out of the blue, I woke up with SEVERE right sided flank

pain. After assuming it was gas pain, for hours, I realized it was

something else, and not good.

I called my doctor (not CFS doc) and he wanted me to get by ambulance

straigt to the ER. The pain was horrid, I was upchucking, I thought " oh,

no, I can't take something more. "

They did a CAT scan and saw many small stones in the kidney and ureter on

the side where the pain was. They said they had to treat me for heavy duty

pain and re-hydrate me, and did.

And the stones would probably pass.

They have not. I've developed a fever and I run very low usually (97.3

ish). I was sent to a urologist, who was outrageously arrogant and seemed

incompetent and one who just wasted my weakened energy and time. I then,

Tuesday, saw my general internist. She found me another urologist; spoke

with her; they decided to put me on Cipro in case the fever was from the

kidney stones (they catherized me in the hospital and that can introduce

infection), and I have to see her today.

I am getting weak. I am also scared. She spoke of " going in there and

breaking up the stones. " I've had, in the past, for bad uti's,

cystoscopes. They are not fun. But afterwards they'd give me pyriduium, a

dye that deadens the nerves throughout the urethera. Problem is, now that

I have CFS I get sick from pyridium.

I am drinking like mad, but the pain, when it breaks thru the meds, remains

up around the kidneys, suggesting no movement is taking place.

I am also consuming cranberry capsules.

But nothing seems to be changing, and I'm scared of the pain of the

procedure and its aftermath, as I'm not in the best of shape from CFS, to

begin with.

Any words of advice?

Judith

>>

[Guest guest]

Saul Pressman wrote:

>

> Dear Sharon,

>

> Kidney stones : Caused by caffeine, sodas, sugar, excessive animal protein,

> insufficient water, lack of fiber

>

> Cleansing:

Saul,

One of these days, very soon, I, or someone on this list is going to

have to find you and pin some sort of medal of honor on you.

In the meantime, please consider yourself the recipient of a grateful

hug!

That's a fantastic amount of info you supplied, a small book in itself.

I'm keeping it both on my HD as well as a hardcopy.

One part raised my eyebrows off the wall, as it seems in direct

contradiction to what i *thought* I knew correctly:

> Nutrition:

> ? Rhubarb

> ? Spinach

> ? Cocoa

> Prevention:

> ? Oxalobater formigenes anerobic bacteria (eat spinach, rhubarb and

> cocoa)

I'm under the impression that around 90% of kidney stones are calcium

oxalate and thus, foods with oxalic acid content are to be avoided.

Wait a minute---brain slowly cranking up---oxalate binds calcium! Is

that it?

Meanwhile, the little kid part of me is gleefully saying " cocoa? "

A million thanks!

Sharon

[Guest guest]

Dear Sharon,

That page was an excerpt from my book,

The Owner's Manual for the Human Body,

which is a convenient way for me to cover all the bases (that I can)

on all the therapies that I have come across.

The information on the spinach, rhubarb and cocoa to feed

oxalobater formigenes anerobic bacteria and prevent kidney stones is from

Dr. .

I always wonder what happens to the ol' anerobe oxalobater during rectal

insufflation.....

Best of Health!

Dr. Saul Pressman, DCh

Re: kidney stones

> Saul Pressman wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sharon,

> >

> > Kidney stones : Caused by caffeine, sodas, sugar, excessive animal

protein,

> > insufficient water, lack of fiber

> >

> > Cleansing:

>

> Saul,

>

> One of these days, very soon, I, or someone on this list is going to

> have to find you and pin some sort of medal of honor on you.

> In the meantime, please consider yourself the recipient of a grateful

> hug!

>

> That's a fantastic amount of info you supplied, a small book in itself.

> I'm keeping it both on my HD as well as a hardcopy.

>

> One part raised my eyebrows off the wall, as it seems in direct

> contradiction to what i *thought* I knew correctly:

>

> > Nutrition:

> > ? Rhubarb

> > ? Spinach

> > ? Cocoa

>

> > Prevention:

> > ? Oxalobater formigenes anerobic bacteria (eat spinach, rhubarb and

> > cocoa)

>

> I'm under the impression that around 90% of kidney stones are calcium

> oxalate and thus, foods with oxalic acid content are to be avoided.

>

> Wait a minute---brain slowly cranking up---oxalate binds calcium! Is

> that it?

>

> Meanwhile, the little kid part of me is gleefully saying " cocoa? "

>

> A million thanks!

>

> Sharon

>

> OxyPLUS is an unmoderated e-ring dealing with oxidative therapies, and

other alternative self-help subjects.

>

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>

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[Guest guest]

Are you sure about the kale? I was told spinach has the oxalic acid

and kale does not! I've been taking lots kale because of this, and

lately I've been feeling much worse so maybe if kale really has the

oxalic acid, that is the culprit.

>

>All the information you'll need is in The Cure For All

>Cancers by Hulda . She has an excellent Kidney

>Cleanse. In the meantime, don't drink iced teas,

>(just herb), and no chocolate. These foods have high

>amounts of oxalic acid. Kale does too. Tomatoes

>contain malonic acid, which contributes to the

>malfunctioning of the kidneys.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gloria---

After my second " bout " with AIH where I'd been put on 40mg of Prednisillone,

I began having kidney stones--and the problem lasted about a year and a half

after I stopped taking the drug. I was admitted for emergency surgery

twice--both times they used a different kind of anesthesia that was supposed

to be less offensive to the liver and there was nothing they could do except

give me strong pain killers. When I started the third round of stones, I had

lithotripsy (sp) where they crush the stones into little " dust " so you can

pass all the little pieces . . . that was one of the worst experiences I'd

ever had! I had to be hospitalized afterwards---only the second patient my

urologist's practice had ever had to admit. And boy was I sore. The upshot

was---didn't break the stones up enough--within a month I found myself back

in the ER in excruciating pain---much worse than any labor pains--because the

pain is constant--you get no break from it. Once again--emergency surgery

and they used whatever kind of anesthesia they used before. I was a much

happier person when I woke up--well eventually anyway. They suspected the

pred was leaching calcium and causing these calcium-based stones. Try to

capture a stone and have it analyzed to see its make-up, and if it is

calcium-based, then do that test which takes about a week to complete to see

if your body is throwing off calcium (because it cannot tolerate it) or if it

is being leached. Best of luck---as our past " commander-in-chief " said---I

feel your pain!!!

Gaye AIH '97

Greensboro, NC

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/3/01 7:59:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, gloriagauss@... writes:

I have AIH, plus a problem with kidney stones, wasn't there also someone else out there that has a problem with kidney stone also? I am being bothered right now, I went to the hospital e.r last night and was told that there was a two hour wait and that the other hospital in our town had a four to six hour wait so I came home and took pain killers and went to bed, and pain killers are probaly killing my liver, I am a little sore this morning, but have decided not to give my body not to much movement and go from there.

How awful! A wait of any length for kidney stones is horrifying! My doctor (pre-AIH) warned me not to go to remote areas until kidney stones passed because one can go into shock from the pain -- pain can be dangerous! Where do you live?

Harper

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/4/02 7:54:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, mtmuscldog@... writes:

I had a friend share a home remedy for passing kidney stones. Eating asparagus and washing it down with cola. Tried it a few times in past = worked some - some times not.

I didn't know you were speaking of kidney stones. I thought you meant home remedies for AIH.

In Rome, doctors gave me a strict list of what to eat and drink, with brand names of "good" and "bad" bottled water. In San Francisco, the doctor said diet would have to be impossibly, unrealistically controlled to help any in prevention.

One important thing -- he pointed out that the pain from kidney stones can be truly dangerous, and that one must get help when an attack starts.

Harper

[Guest guest]

If I do get dx's with AIH next week then I am in big trouble with my kidney

stones - I already have them. I have always felt that my stones were more

stress-related than diet. My water consumption for the past year has

drastically improved. When I am teaching I carry a large bottled water and

sometimes have gone through two a day. This comes from someone who was 100%

cola and tea.

[Guest guest]

Debby,

The first time I had kidney stones - I didnt know what was wrong with me. I

had so much pain and I couldnt stand up - I was bent over. A buddy rushed me

to the hospital - a rural North Georgia hospital. Once I was in ER-ette, all

the nurses starting rolling in laughter at my pain. I asked what $%#%# were

they laughing at? One nurse finally spoke up, " Why don't you know that

kidney stones are womens revenge over man for childbirth?? " HA HA HA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/4/02 8:16:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, mtmuscldog@... writes:

If I do get dx's with AIH next week then I am in big trouble with my kidney stones - I already have them.

I also had them before. I haven't had any episodes since I developed AIH. The two don't necessarily go together; the likelihood becomes higher when you take Prednisone. I can tell you why if and when it becomes relevant to you.

Harper

[Guest guest]

I teach public speaking and theatre - and have two extra-curriculars - drama

program where I direct two plays a year and I coach speech for speech and

debate team. I LOVE MY WORK! I MISS MY WORK!

[Guest guest]

Thanks buddy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/4/02 8:31:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, tdcc2000@... writes:

Oh yes Harper....stones are very very serious. My husband had an attack...he was in such pain. It is terrible!! I personally have never had them and hope I never do! I just laughed at my husband because he was in such pain yelling, "The pain, the pain!" I told him to shut up cause it was no worse than having a baby! He didn't listen. The doctor put him out of his misery.....and mine! Several days later, he was all better.....ohhhh they must be terrible!

debby

I found kidney stones to be quite a lot worse than having a baby -- , and my baby-having experience was said to be much worse than the average.

The point is that the pain of kidney stones can be dangerous in itself, as one can go into shock.

Harper

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/4/02 8:36:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, tdcc2000@... writes:

Now my question....could it be possible for those people who get kidney stones frequently that this too is an autoimmune? Just wondering...debby

I don't think so. People being treated for AIH are prone to them because Prednisone leaches calcium from bones and drops it into the bloodstream. The kidneys pick it up -- and there you are.

Harper

[Guest guest]

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/4/02 8:55:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, tdcc2000@... writes:

I couldn't EVEN think what they felt like inside

Bad.

[Guest guest]

I had kidney stones the first time in Rome many years when my husband's big international employer was between insurance policies and we had very little money. So, I thought I couldn't go to a doctor. I wound up with convulsions, an out-of-body experience and an infection.

Harper

[Guest guest]

Yes I was! But the most terrified I have ever been was with this Hep A - I

thought I would die -seriously. When they told me my enzymes were up to 3000

- I knew I was going to die. Glad you have set your parameters for the gym -

I think it is more of a guy thing to overdo and show off.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/4/02 9:17:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, tdcc2000@... writes:

You must have been totally terrified!

debby

No. Too dumb to know better. And I met some very interesting people along the way when I did get treatment at a very old free clinic down the street.

Harper

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/4/02 9:53:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, mtmuscldog@... writes:

I think it is more of a guy thing to overdo and show off.

Not necessarily.

Harper

[Guest guest]

Oh yes Harper....stones are very very serious. My husband had an attack...he was in such pain. It is terrible!! I personally have never had them and hope I never do! I just laughed at my husband because he was in such pain yelling, "The pain, the pain!" I told him to shut up cause it was no worse than having a baby! He didn't listen. The doctor put him out of his misery.....and mine! Several days later, he was all better.....ohhhh they must be terrible!

debby

Re: [ ] Kidney stones

In a message dated 1/4/02 7:54:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, mtmuscldog@... writes:

I had a friend share a home remedy for passing kidney stones. Eating asparagus and washing it down with cola. Tried it a few times in past = worked some - some times not. I didn't know you were speaking of kidney stones. I thought you meant home remedies for AIH. In Rome, doctors gave me a strict list of what to eat and drink, with brand names of "good" and "bad" bottled water. In San Francisco, the doctor said diet would have to be impossibly, unrealistically controlled to help any in prevention. One important thing -- he pointed out that the pain from kidney stones can be truly dangerous, and that one must get help when an attack starts. Harper

[Guest guest]

Hey ...what do you teach? I haven't been able to get out of first grade! Love it!

debby

Re: [ ] Kidney stones

If I do get dx's with AIH next week then I am in big trouble with my kidney stones - I already have them. I have always felt that my stones were more stress-related than diet. My water consumption for the past year has drastically improved. When I am teaching I carry a large bottled water and sometimes have gone through two a day. This comes from someone who was 100% cola and tea.

[Guest guest]

Now my question....could it be possible for those people who get kidney stones frequently that this too is an autoimmune? Just wondering...debby

Re: [ ] Kidney stones

If I do get dx's with AIH next week then I am in big trouble with my kidney stones - I already have them. I have always felt that my stones were more stress-related than diet. My water consumption for the past year has drastically improved. When I am teaching I carry a large bottled water and sometimes have gone through two a day. This comes from someone who was 100% cola and tea.

[Guest guest]

LOL!!!! Totallyhysterical! Sorry, but you men are all wimps....heck....someone once said that if Men had to have babies, there would never have been any people! (SMILE)))))

debby

Re: [ ] Kidney stones

Debby,The first time I had kidney stones - I didnt know what was wrong with me. I had so much pain and I couldnt stand up - I was bent over. A buddy rushed me to the hospital - a rural North Georgia hospital. Once I was in ER-ette, all the nurses starting rolling in laughter at my pain. I asked what $%#%# were they laughing at? One nurse finally spoke up, "Why don't you know that kidney stones are womens revenge over man for childbirth??" HA HA HA

[Guest guest]

YIKES! My child birth was simple. I had my first in 2 1/2 hours, and my second in 45 minutes....so I really have no idea what a "difficult" childbirth is! I truly was blessed!

You are right about the pain. The blood pressure can go so high that you could stroke out or have a heart attack from what I have heard. My husband's stones were like those little stickers you step on. We call them Goatheads here in Calif. It is horrible. They truly hurt when I touched them...I couldn't EVEN think what they felt like inside!

debby

Re: [ ] Kidney stones

In a message dated 1/4/02 8:31:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, tdcc2000@... writes:

Oh yes Harper....stones are very very serious. My husband had an attack...he was in such pain. It is terrible!! I personally have never had them and hope I never do! I just laughed at my husband because he was in such pain yelling, "The pain, the pain!" I told him to shut up cause it was no worse than having a baby! He didn't listen. The doctor put him out of his misery.....and mine! Several days later, he was all better.....ohhhh they must be terrible! debby I found kidney stones to be quite a lot worse than having a baby -- , and my baby-having experience was said to be much worse than the average. The point is that the pain of kidney stones can be dangerous in itself, as one can go into shock. Harper