Re: Digest Number 795

April 26, 2000

Message: 3

Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:40:35 -0400

From: " Ken and " <kglg@...>

Subject: RA neck

<< problem caused by years of RA; there is no current inflammation. C1

has

subluxed somewhat on C2 with an odontoid interval of 8 mm. From what I

have

read, anything over 3 mm is abnormal and my doctor says at 11-12 mm they

recommend surgery for fusion. He believes his examination of my neck

made >>

,

Try to find a DO/CHIRO (Osteopath that practices Chiropractic) who can

direct you to someone who specializes in the C-1 O-N-L-Y. There are

about 1/2 dozen of these fellows in CA/NV and that is all they do --

work the C-1.

" IF " it can save you from getting fused it is well worth the effort.

Their charges usually run around $50 so it's not very expensive -- the

obvious problem is the bone on bone but these C-1 specialists save

thousands of people every year from fusion surgery.

Whether or not there is an alternative to fusion, such as insertion of a

customized computer cut Delrin® plate to replace the cartilege or some

such is also worth exploring. Although it is a surgical procedure it

would still be better than fusion if available. HTH

Regards,

Geoff Crenshaw, ACC -----------------------

Captain Cook's Cruise Center ** Usual Disclaimers **

-----------------------

Why do I have hope?

Because I am under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

ICQ 60333388

November 16, 2000

In a message dated 11/14/00 6:36:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,

egroups writes:

<< When will they return to normal looking fingers?

Anyone else out there with PA in fingers and swelling? Your

experiences will help me with mine. Thanks

>>

If it goes the way mine has, your finger swelling will come and go. I find

the more I use my hands at work, on the computer, etc., the more painful they

get. I have a couple of fingers that are very swollen & painful. I have had

an injection in one finger when it was really bad, and my right ankle has

been injected twice. After four months of Methotrexate, I am finally feeling

like there is progress - but I was diagnosed last May. I also had xrays of

my hands to check bone damage - and there is none thankfully! My RD says one

of the purposes of the MTX is to PREVENT bone damage...I am also on steroids

& Indocin. One question I do have for people - does anyone have any joint

cysts? I have a large cyst in my right thumb joint which is very painful & I

am having it removed next week. I can barely touch my thumb to my little

finger because of it. I don't think this is PA related (neither does my RD)

but wonder if anyone else has this type of thing. Hang in there...it's an

ongoing process!

, Monroe, MI

November 16, 2000

In a message dated 11/14/00 6:36:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,

egroups writes:

<< I just started

learning about the PA. I have fibromyalgia also. This has been kinda hard

to deal with all this coming at me. >>

Hi : I also was diagnosed with Fibro at the same time as the PA and

only since last May so I know what you're going through...hang in there &

keep talking to this group!

, Monroe, MI

February 27, 2001

Hi Group,

Marta, my hips & knees & legs are giving me fits! Like you up high in

the groin area, ( Doc says is caused from arthritis in hips), it seems

like popping out of joints. It started in rght leg, now it is the left.

Its not painful, but I can't seem to keep moving when it does it, like

you said, its uncomfortable. If I place my hand there w/ a little force

it helps. I notice my right side up in hip area it has shrunk, (sunken

in) like maybe the muscle is wasting away? I'm not experiencing this

discomfort in that area anymore either. Its now on the left side. Wierd!

I was always active, experienced lots of sprained ankles, & scoliosis,

but climbed trees, rode my bike, regular tomboy, when a kid, had a

hysterectomy 10 years ago, at age 51, I think I went down hill from

there. I also have fallen hard on my knees, 3 times in 5 years. I was

excercising at the " Y " last year for over a year, & since I stopped is

when I seem to have more pain w/ knees, hips, & legs. I don't know if

being more inactive in winter is reason, but all I have to do is wash a

few loads of clothes or do dishes, standing for a while, sweep floors &

mop, I can hardly walk after a short while, & i don't mean doing all

this at once. The bottom of my feet hurt soooo bad I can hardly take

it!!

God Bless everyone, Patsy

February 27, 2001

I also have a lot of pain in in my feet , I can not wear shoes or socks

a lot of the time, the pain gets better at times and worse at times. i

wear houseshoes alot of the time. How long can you stand on your feet at

a time? Do your toes hurt also? Thank goodness for when the pain gets

better.

March 13, 2001

An Angel for you all.....turn up your volume hugs,

Marie

http://passthison.com/angel3/?

<a href= " http://passthison.com/angel3/? " >Click

Here</a>

--- wrote:

> ~~~~ *** ~~~ *** ~~~ *** ~~~~

> The Being Sick Community

>

> Help with Merger

> /files/

>

> Visual problems with colors?

> Click the link below and select the modify link to

> your right. Then select the **Send Plain Text

> Email** option. This will stop you receiving emails

> with colored or enlarged fonts.

> /join

>

> Members Lounge:-

> Photo Album, memorial page, members profiles,

> birthdays, locations, medical resources, counselling

> via email and a whole bunch of free things.

> http://www.elderwyn.com/members

>

> Message Archives and Digest Attachment Pictures:-

> /messages

>

> Chat:-

> Scheduled Daily Chats at # on IRC DALnet.

>

/files/chat.htm

>

> Bookmarks:-

> Add a website URL you have found useful.

> /links

>

> Personal Complaints or problems:-

> Please contact a moderator either via email

> <-owner > or visit:-

>

/files/Moderators.htm

>

> Subscription Details:-

> 1) Individual email - means that every email sent to

> the list you receive.

> 2) Daily Digest - sends you 25 messages in one

> single email for you to browse. This is an excellent

> option if you receive alot of email.

> 3) Web only/No mail - means that you can pop into

> eGroups at your convenience and receive no email.

>

> To modify your subscription settings, subscribe or

> unsubscribe, please visit

> /join

>

> ~~~~ *** ~~~ *** ~~~ *** ~~~~

>

> “Hold on to what is good, even if it's a handful of

> earth. Hold on to what you believe, even if it's a

> tree that stands by itself. Hold on to what you must

> do even, if it's a long way from here. Hold on to

> your life, even if it's easier to let go. " - Pueblo

> Prayer

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> There are 25 messages in this issue.

>

> Topics in this digest:

>

> 1. Re: Digest Number 794

> From: Marie Lordan

> <MissMarie820@...>

> 2. RE: Digest Number 794

> From: " Don & "

> <handd1@...>

> 3. Re: Digest Number 794

> From: Terri <terribrew@...>

> 4. Re: New

> From: <whyten@...>

> 5. Re: Melinda

> From: <whyten@...>

> 6. Re: Quiet a long time

> From: <whyten@...>

> 7. Ling

> From: <whyten@...>

> 8. Re:Lab test Normal

> From: Aleka16@...

> 9. Re: I'm back

> From: <whyten@...>

> 10. RE: Lab tests normal....No surprise there

> From: Kristy Sokoloski <sokokl@...>

> 11. Marie~Thanks

> From: Aleka16@...

> 12. Re: Surgery -- Fire

> From: <whyten@...>

> 13. Re: ~ * ~ Welcome Jenn ~ * ~

> From: <whyten@...>

> 14. Johanna , Aisha

> From: Aleka16@...

> 15. Re: Biopsy complete

> From: <whyten@...>

> 16. Re: Gracie's uro appt.

> From: <whyten@...>

> 17. Dark

> From: Dina Darginsky

> <hootdd@...>

> 18. RE: Re:Lab test Normal

> From: " Don & "

> <handd1@...>

> 19. Howdy to all

> From: Aleka16@...

> 20. Week in Review-Medscape Today MedPulse

> 09-Mar-01 --Introducing PULMONARY MEDICINE AND

> ALLERGY & CLINICAL IMMUNOLOGY

> From: " Aisha Elderwyn "

> <aisha@...>

> 21. Re: Howdy to all

> From: <whyten@...>

> 22. Joke

> From: l harris

> <belowskinbeauty@...>

> 23. Just in case you missed me

> From: angelbear1129@...

> 24. Re: Just in case you missed me

> From: Faulkncs@...

> 25. Re: Digest Number 793( #1)

> From: " Jenn Friedhoff "

> <bmomjenn@...>

>

________________________________________________________________________

>

________________________________________________________________________

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:52:35 -0800 (PST)

> From: Marie Lordan <MissMarie820@...>

> Subject: Re: Digest Number 794

>

> Hello ...

> I haven't had a colonoscopy YET, lol so,

> I'm gonna explain as my sister told me. She was

> sedated pretty well, which I'm sure helps, and she

> said the actual procedure wasn't as bad as she

> thought. There was definately some discomfort going

> on, but her doctor was very gentle and his " bedside

> manner " is an A+...so that in itself helps A

> very

> long " tubing " with a camera at the end is inserted

> and it goes through your whole intestine....which is

> I

> don't know how many feet long.....and air is pushed

> through to expand the colon so they may see it

> better

> on the screen. Unfortunately you have to be awake

> for

> this, but after it's done your wheeled into a room

> for

> awhile to " pass " all that air that was blown

> through.

> That's the best way I know to explain......I'm sure

> I

> could tell ya lots more if I'd had mine. lol But I

> think that's enough info. I hope this helps

> some....

> How are your parents feeling with the HCV? My

> husband

> is on the interferon therapy and it makes him

> soooooooooooooooo ill He also just found he has

> kidney problems developing.....we just found out

> about

> the hep c a few months back (were

> devastated).....and

> both had liver biopsys.....mine came back ok, but he

> is already in early stage of cirrhosis They say

> it's from the hep, as he has been sober from alcohol

> for 10 years too. (what a slap in the face that

> was).

> Hepatitis is an epidemic, and it's going to get

> worse

> with all the teens getting tattoos, body piercings,

> etc..and IV drug use.

> Oh well, one day at a time is how we do it.....

> Take care and I hope everything turns out well for

> you!!

> -----------------------------

> Welcome Denisa! My name's Marie and I'm new

> as

> well. This is a great group of caring compassionate

> people....I am also in recovery, na/aa! Nice to

> " meet " you!

> Again, welcome aboard!

> -----------------------------

> Goodnight all, and Aisha I hope things are getting a

> lot better for you & your husband as well! Take

> care! Marie

>

> --- wrote:

> > ~~~~ *** ~~~ *** ~~~ *** ~~~~

> > The Being Sick Community

> >

> > Help with Merger

> > /files/

> >

> > Visual problems with colors?

> > Click the link below and select the modify link to

> > your right. Then select the **Send Plain Text

> > Email** option. This will stop you receiving

> emails

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

March 26, 2001

so do you think that would help, yesterday it was hurting agian, it is

not so bad I can't walk, but is a nuisance and I don't want it to get

bad.

***I've never tried brewer's yeast, so I can't comment. But knee pain,

that I

know about. I had total knee reconstruction. I take glucosamine and I

swear by it. I don't think I'd be able to press as much weight as I do

if I

didn't take it. It's also helped with my shoulder.***

WOW, on the package it says on TB for every 100 pounds body weight. but

you take 6 and feel good and continue to burn fat? I think I have a hard

time with some fats are good, you know I am so used to the fat is taboo

and none is best thinking, I am getting better though, I have it in my

head, just applying it is hard.

***I was told not to count the flax seed oil because it contributed to

negative

calories. Meaning, it' helps burn fat. Some people count it, I don't.

I

take 6 tablespoons a day and Tim takes 8. I can say that it hasn't hurt

his

metabolism any at all.***

I never mentioned this b/c I am a bit embarrassed, but when I eat

aspargus and caulifour my urine smells, and this explains it. I hope you

all never meet me in person, =-)

***PS: trying your chicken recipe this week. It sounds yummy! I love

asparagus, it's a natural diuretic.***

des

________________________________________________________________

GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!

Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!

Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:

http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

March 26, 2001

so do you think that would help, yesterday it was hurting agian, it is

not so bad I can't walk, but is a nuisance and I don't want it to get

bad.

***I've never tried brewer's yeast, so I can't comment. But knee pain,

that I

know about. I had total knee reconstruction. I take glucosamine and I

swear by it. I don't think I'd be able to press as much weight as I do

if I

didn't take it. It's also helped with my shoulder.***

WOW, on the package it says on TB for every 100 pounds body weight. but

you take 6 and feel good and continue to burn fat? I think I have a hard

time with some fats are good, you know I am so used to the fat is taboo

and none is best thinking, I am getting better though, I have it in my

head, just applying it is hard.

***I was told not to count the flax seed oil because it contributed to

negative

calories. Meaning, it' helps burn fat. Some people count it, I don't.

I

take 6 tablespoons a day and Tim takes 8. I can say that it hasn't hurt

his

metabolism any at all.***

I never mentioned this b/c I am a bit embarrassed, but when I eat

aspargus and caulifour my urine smells, and this explains it. I hope you

all never meet me in person, =-)

***PS: trying your chicken recipe this week. It sounds yummy! I love

asparagus, it's a natural diuretic.***

des

________________________________________________________________

GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!

Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!

Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:

http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

March 28, 2001

In a message dated 3/28/01 2:21:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,

writes:

> I am VERY opposed to that!!!!! I

> could go on and on about how vehement I am on the topic....but wont'.

> Donna

>

Aw, c'mon, Donnna........why not???

March 28, 2001

In a message dated 3/28/01 6:09:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ltb3105@...

writes:

<< Aw, c'mon, Donnna........why not???

>>

LOLOLOL . Nah. I'm nice to my friends....LOL

\Donna

May 3, 2001

Does MSM have any side effects?

Pearl (NY)

Country Living at it's finest

Countrylife

May 3, 2001

On 3 May 2001, at 17:08, PEARLY2@... wrote:

> Does MSM have any side effects?

I'm not sure if it counts as a side-effect, but it makes my hair and

nails grow incredibly fast, and totally changes the texture of my

skin (for the better)! What a burden, eh...?

Ann

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.willow-web.net Quality Web Design

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

May 4, 2001

If you take too much it will give you allot

of gas. That's how you know to cut back.

Taking it in the evening will keep you awake

at night. I took my 2 doses, once in the morning

and once at lunch. I now take one dose in the

morning. I don't recall any other experiences

with this product that turned out bad. Its

possible if you get negative symptoms that is

does not agree with you or could be die-off. But

sad to say I didn't get any die-off with MSM.

LIZ D

> [Original Message]

> From: <PEARLY2@...>

> <candidiasis >

> Date: 5/3/01 2:24:59 PM

> Subject: Re: Digest Number 795

>

> Does MSM have any side effects?

>

> Pearl (NY)

>

> Country Living at it's finest

> Countrylife

>

> Send blank message to candidiasis-unsubscribeonelist if you want to

UNSUBSCRIBE !

>

December 1, 2001

In a message dated 12/1/01 11:10:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,

writes:

Trudy,

It was a new program, filmed appx. this past Spring/Summer. Last time I

spoke to her Mom, Marilyn she said Carnie was hoping to have her plastic

surgery this month and wanted to have her Mom taking care of her afterwards.

Will let you all know if she has the surgery.

Joni

> dAMN Joni,

> I just read most of my mail and seen your post about your cousin, Carni.

> Let me know if they run this again, I am so fasinated by her adventure in

> weight loss. Was it a new program about her?

> Trudy )

>

August 29, 2003

Huh? I'm confused by these. Is the person who posted them, recommending

them?! If this is becoming yet another drug pushing message board, I'd

rather not be a recipient of messages. If I've misunderstood, I apologize.

Deb

More garbage 'science'...

>

> (See last paragraph on who sponsored this 'research'...shame on the

> scientific establishment for allowing this crap!)

>

http://story.news./news?tmpl=story & u=/acurian/20030827/hl_acurian/stanf\

ord__packard_research_finds_better_drug_therapy_for_children_predisposed_to_bipo\

lar_disorder

>

> Stanford, Packard Research Finds Better Drug Therapy for Children

> Predisposed to Bipolar Disorder

> Tue Aug 26, 8:00 PM ET

>

> Source: Stanford University Medical Center

>

> STANFORD, CA -- Children with psychiatric problems who also have a high

risk

> of developing bipolar disorder respond well to a mood-stabilizing drug,

> according to a study that is the first to examine the drug's effect on

> children predisposed to bipolar disorder. The researchers at Stanford

> University School of Medicine and Lucile Packard Children's Hospital say

> determining the correct medication for these children is crucial because

> standard drug therapies, such as antidepressants and stimulants, may in

fact

> trigger manic episodes, exacerbating their underlying condition.

>

> In a study published in the August 2003 issue of the Journal of Clinical

> Psychiatry, the researchers found that more than three-quarters of these

> at-risk children showed improvement in their mood or behavioral disorders

> after receiving a drug called divalproex. The drug, used to treat mania in

> adults, essentially " cools off the brain, " said Kiki Chang, MD, assistant

> professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at the School of Medicine

> and a psychiatrist at Packard Children's Hospital.

>

> Bipolar disorder affects 2.2 million Americans, who experience extreme and

> debilitating highs and lows. Children known as " bipolar offspring " - who

> have a parent with bipolar disorder but have not yet developed the

disorder

> themselves - and who suffer from other psychiatric problems are more

likely

> to develop the disease.

>

> Researchers studied 23 bipolar offspring between the ages of 6 and 18 who

> had attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder or ADHD, depression or other

> mood disorders. These children showed signs of depression or mania but did

> not meet the criteria for bipolar I or II disorder, though they were

> considered at risk. Previous studies have estimated that bipolar offspring

> have up to a 24 percent chance of developing the disease, and ADHD might

be

> a predictor.

>

> Researchers evaluated patients at the start of the trial, assessing them

for

> manic and depressive symptoms and determining the severity of their

> conditions. After stopping any current medications, the children took

> divalproex for 12 weeks and underwent periodic re-evaluations. While there

> was no placebo control group, researchers monitored the participants for a

> relatively long time, said Chang, first author of the paper.

>

> Of the study participants, 78 percent were " very much improved " or " much

> improved " in their mood or behavioral disorders and 82 percent showed at

> least a 50 percent decrease in their ratings of depressive or manic

> symptoms. Children with depression responded dramatically to the

medication

> after as little as one week of treatment.

>

> " What was most surprising was how quickly the patients responded, and that

> patients with depression responded so well to divalproex, " Chang said.

While

> traditional drugs are effective for most children, they can lead to an

> earlier onset of a manic episode for children at risk of bipolar disorder.

> The trick then becomes to determine which children are likely to be

> predisposed to the illness.

>

> Chang and his colleagues in the Stanford Pediatric Bipolar Disorders

Program

> are conducting separate studies investigating the genetics and brain

> physiology of bipolar offspring to search for indicators. The scientists

are

> also designing another divalproex experiment with a placebo component and

> will conduct a study monitoring these children to determine if, and when,

> they develop bipolar disease. They will also investigate non-drug

> interventions, such as family-focused therapies. " Our goal is to identify

> these children early for treatment and perhaps prevention, " he said. " If

we

> can prevent bipolar disease in childhood, we can prevent later treatment

> resistance and future complications like substance abuse, poor work and

> school performance, and even suicide. "

>

> It is possible that divalproex not only relieves the mood and behavioral

> problems of bipolar offspring, but also delays or prevents the onset of

the

> disorder, Chang noted. Studies of the drug in cell cultures and mice

suggest

> that it can help protect the brain, but such studies have not been done in

> humans.

>

> For now, though, Chang hopes to alert psychiatrists to the possibility

that

> children predisposed to bipolar disorder will respond poorly to standard

> medications for other mood and behavior disorders and that there are

> alternative treatment options. " We want to raise awareness about these

kids

> and the idea that perhaps they will be better treated with mood

> stabilizers, " he said.

>

> Families with at least one parent with bipolar disorder and a child with

> early indicators of the disorder or bipolar disorder itself and who are

> interested in participating in future studies can contact Meghan Howe at

> 650-736-2688 or meghowe@.... Volunteers will receive a full

> evaluation for all family members and may be eligible to participate in

> brain imaging, genetics or medication studies.

>

> Chang's co-authors are Dienes, research assistant;

> Blasey, PhD, research psychologist; Adleman, graduate student;

Terence

> Ketter, MD, associate professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences; and

> Hans Steiner, MD, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences.

>

> The research was supported by grants from Abbott Laboratories, which makes

> divalproex; the National Alliance for Research on Schizophrenia and

> Depression; and the Klingenstein Third Generation Foundation.

>

> Visit www.acurian.com for more information on new and emerging medical

> therapies and clinical trial enrollment opportunities in your condition(s)

> of interest. Sign up for customized email updates and visit our

> one-of-a-kind Quick Results Center at www.acurian.com/patient

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls.

> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

>

August 29, 2003

Huh? I'm confused by these. Is the person who posted them, recommending

them?! If this is becoming yet another drug pushing message board, I'd

rather not be a recipient of messages. If I've misunderstood, I apologize.

Deb

More garbage 'science'...

>

> (See last paragraph on who sponsored this 'research'...shame on the

> scientific establishment for allowing this crap!)

>

http://story.news./news?tmpl=story & u=/acurian/20030827/hl_acurian/stanf\

ord__packard_research_finds_better_drug_therapy_for_children_predisposed_to_bipo\

lar_disorder

>

> Stanford, Packard Research Finds Better Drug Therapy for Children

> Predisposed to Bipolar Disorder

> Tue Aug 26, 8:00 PM ET

>

> Source: Stanford University Medical Center

>

> STANFORD, CA -- Children with psychiatric problems who also have a high

risk

> of developing bipolar disorder respond well to a mood-stabilizing drug,

> according to a study that is the first to examine the drug's effect on

> children predisposed to bipolar disorder. The researchers at Stanford

> University School of Medicine and Lucile Packard Children's Hospital say

> determining the correct medication for these children is crucial because

> standard drug therapies, such as antidepressants and stimulants, may in

fact

> trigger manic episodes, exacerbating their underlying condition.

>

> In a study published in the August 2003 issue of the Journal of Clinical

> Psychiatry, the researchers found that more than three-quarters of these

> at-risk children showed improvement in their mood or behavioral disorders

> after receiving a drug called divalproex. The drug, used to treat mania in

> adults, essentially " cools off the brain, " said Kiki Chang, MD, assistant

> professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at the School of Medicine

> and a psychiatrist at Packard Children's Hospital.

>

> Bipolar disorder affects 2.2 million Americans, who experience extreme and

> debilitating highs and lows. Children known as " bipolar offspring " - who

> have a parent with bipolar disorder but have not yet developed the

disorder

> themselves - and who suffer from other psychiatric problems are more

likely

> to develop the disease.

>

> Researchers studied 23 bipolar offspring between the ages of 6 and 18 who

> had attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder or ADHD, depression or other

> mood disorders. These children showed signs of depression or mania but did

> not meet the criteria for bipolar I or II disorder, though they were

> considered at risk. Previous studies have estimated that bipolar offspring

> have up to a 24 percent chance of developing the disease, and ADHD might

be

> a predictor.

>

> Researchers evaluated patients at the start of the trial, assessing them

for

> manic and depressive symptoms and determining the severity of their

> conditions. After stopping any current medications, the children took

> divalproex for 12 weeks and underwent periodic re-evaluations. While there

> was no placebo control group, researchers monitored the participants for a

> relatively long time, said Chang, first author of the paper.

>

> Of the study participants, 78 percent were " very much improved " or " much

> improved " in their mood or behavioral disorders and 82 percent showed at

> least a 50 percent decrease in their ratings of depressive or manic

> symptoms. Children with depression responded dramatically to the

medication

> after as little as one week of treatment.

>

> " What was most surprising was how quickly the patients responded, and that

> patients with depression responded so well to divalproex, " Chang said.

While

> traditional drugs are effective for most children, they can lead to an

> earlier onset of a manic episode for children at risk of bipolar disorder.

> The trick then becomes to determine which children are likely to be

> predisposed to the illness.

>

> Chang and his colleagues in the Stanford Pediatric Bipolar Disorders

Program

> are conducting separate studies investigating the genetics and brain

> physiology of bipolar offspring to search for indicators. The scientists

are

> also designing another divalproex experiment with a placebo component and

> will conduct a study monitoring these children to determine if, and when,

> they develop bipolar disease. They will also investigate non-drug

> interventions, such as family-focused therapies. " Our goal is to identify

> these children early for treatment and perhaps prevention, " he said. " If

we

> can prevent bipolar disease in childhood, we can prevent later treatment

> resistance and future complications like substance abuse, poor work and

> school performance, and even suicide. "

>

> It is possible that divalproex not only relieves the mood and behavioral

> problems of bipolar offspring, but also delays or prevents the onset of

the

> disorder, Chang noted. Studies of the drug in cell cultures and mice

suggest

> that it can help protect the brain, but such studies have not been done in

> humans.

>

> For now, though, Chang hopes to alert psychiatrists to the possibility

that

> children predisposed to bipolar disorder will respond poorly to standard

> medications for other mood and behavior disorders and that there are

> alternative treatment options. " We want to raise awareness about these

kids

> and the idea that perhaps they will be better treated with mood

> stabilizers, " he said.

>

> Families with at least one parent with bipolar disorder and a child with

> early indicators of the disorder or bipolar disorder itself and who are

> interested in participating in future studies can contact Meghan Howe at

> 650-736-2688 or meghowe@.... Volunteers will receive a full

> evaluation for all family members and may be eligible to participate in

> brain imaging, genetics or medication studies.

>

> Chang's co-authors are Dienes, research assistant;

> Blasey, PhD, research psychologist; Adleman, graduate student;

Terence

> Ketter, MD, associate professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences; and

> Hans Steiner, MD, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences.

>

> The research was supported by grants from Abbott Laboratories, which makes

> divalproex; the National Alliance for Research on Schizophrenia and

> Depression; and the Klingenstein Third Generation Foundation.

>

> Visit www.acurian.com for more information on new and emerging medical

> therapies and clinical trial enrollment opportunities in your condition(s)

> of interest. Sign up for customized email updates and visit our

> one-of-a-kind Quick Results Center at www.acurian.com/patient

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls.

> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

>

August 29, 2003

Huh? I'm confused by these. Is the person who posted them, recommending

them?! If this is becoming yet another drug pushing message board, I'd

rather not be a recipient of messages. If I've misunderstood, I apologize.

Deb

More garbage 'science'...

>

> (See last paragraph on who sponsored this 'research'...shame on the

> scientific establishment for allowing this crap!)

>

http://story.news./news?tmpl=story & u=/acurian/20030827/hl_acurian/stanf\

ord__packard_research_finds_better_drug_therapy_for_children_predisposed_to_bipo\

lar_disorder

>

> Stanford, Packard Research Finds Better Drug Therapy for Children

> Predisposed to Bipolar Disorder

> Tue Aug 26, 8:00 PM ET

>

> Source: Stanford University Medical Center

>

> STANFORD, CA -- Children with psychiatric problems who also have a high

risk

> of developing bipolar disorder respond well to a mood-stabilizing drug,

> according to a study that is the first to examine the drug's effect on

> children predisposed to bipolar disorder. The researchers at Stanford

> University School of Medicine and Lucile Packard Children's Hospital say

> determining the correct medication for these children is crucial because

> standard drug therapies, such as antidepressants and stimulants, may in

fact

> trigger manic episodes, exacerbating their underlying condition.

>

> In a study published in the August 2003 issue of the Journal of Clinical

> Psychiatry, the researchers found that more than three-quarters of these

> at-risk children showed improvement in their mood or behavioral disorders

> after receiving a drug called divalproex. The drug, used to treat mania in

> adults, essentially " cools off the brain, " said Kiki Chang, MD, assistant

> professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at the School of Medicine

> and a psychiatrist at Packard Children's Hospital.

>

> Bipolar disorder affects 2.2 million Americans, who experience extreme and

> debilitating highs and lows. Children known as " bipolar offspring " - who

> have a parent with bipolar disorder but have not yet developed the

disorder

> themselves - and who suffer from other psychiatric problems are more

likely

> to develop the disease.

>

> Researchers studied 23 bipolar offspring between the ages of 6 and 18 who

> had attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder or ADHD, depression or other

> mood disorders. These children showed signs of depression or mania but did

> not meet the criteria for bipolar I or II disorder, though they were

> considered at risk. Previous studies have estimated that bipolar offspring

> have up to a 24 percent chance of developing the disease, and ADHD might

be

> a predictor.

>

> Researchers evaluated patients at the start of the trial, assessing them

for

> manic and depressive symptoms and determining the severity of their

> conditions. After stopping any current medications, the children took

> divalproex for 12 weeks and underwent periodic re-evaluations. While there

> was no placebo control group, researchers monitored the participants for a

> relatively long time, said Chang, first author of the paper.

>

> Of the study participants, 78 percent were " very much improved " or " much

> improved " in their mood or behavioral disorders and 82 percent showed at

> least a 50 percent decrease in their ratings of depressive or manic

> symptoms. Children with depression responded dramatically to the

medication

> after as little as one week of treatment.

>

> " What was most surprising was how quickly the patients responded, and that

> patients with depression responded so well to divalproex, " Chang said.

While

> traditional drugs are effective for most children, they can lead to an

> earlier onset of a manic episode for children at risk of bipolar disorder.

> The trick then becomes to determine which children are likely to be

> predisposed to the illness.

>

> Chang and his colleagues in the Stanford Pediatric Bipolar Disorders

Program

> are conducting separate studies investigating the genetics and brain

> physiology of bipolar offspring to search for indicators. The scientists

are

> also designing another divalproex experiment with a placebo component and

> will conduct a study monitoring these children to determine if, and when,

> they develop bipolar disease. They will also investigate non-drug

> interventions, such as family-focused therapies. " Our goal is to identify

> these children early for treatment and perhaps prevention, " he said. " If

we

> can prevent bipolar disease in childhood, we can prevent later treatment

> resistance and future complications like substance abuse, poor work and

> school performance, and even suicide. "

>

> It is possible that divalproex not only relieves the mood and behavioral

> problems of bipolar offspring, but also delays or prevents the onset of

the

> disorder, Chang noted. Studies of the drug in cell cultures and mice

suggest

> that it can help protect the brain, but such studies have not been done in

> humans.

>

> For now, though, Chang hopes to alert psychiatrists to the possibility

that

> children predisposed to bipolar disorder will respond poorly to standard

> medications for other mood and behavior disorders and that there are

> alternative treatment options. " We want to raise awareness about these

kids

> and the idea that perhaps they will be better treated with mood

> stabilizers, " he said.

>

> Families with at least one parent with bipolar disorder and a child with

> early indicators of the disorder or bipolar disorder itself and who are

> interested in participating in future studies can contact Meghan Howe at

> 650-736-2688 or meghowe@.... Volunteers will receive a full

> evaluation for all family members and may be eligible to participate in

> brain imaging, genetics or medication studies.

>

> Chang's co-authors are Dienes, research assistant;

> Blasey, PhD, research psychologist; Adleman, graduate student;

Terence

> Ketter, MD, associate professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences; and

> Hans Steiner, MD, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences.

>

> The research was supported by grants from Abbott Laboratories, which makes

> divalproex; the National Alliance for Research on Schizophrenia and

> Depression; and the Klingenstein Third Generation Foundation.

>

> Visit www.acurian.com for more information on new and emerging medical

> therapies and clinical trial enrollment opportunities in your condition(s)

> of interest. Sign up for customized email updates and visit our

> one-of-a-kind Quick Results Center at www.acurian.com/patient

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls.

> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

>

August 29, 2003

Huh? I'm confused by these. Is the person who posted them, recommending

them?! If this is becoming yet another drug pushing message board, I'd

rather not be a recipient of messages. If I've misunderstood, I apologize.

Deb

More garbage 'science'...

>

> (See last paragraph on who sponsored this 'research'...shame on the

> scientific establishment for allowing this crap!)

>

http://story.news./news?tmpl=story & u=/acurian/20030827/hl_acurian/stanf\

ord__packard_research_finds_better_drug_therapy_for_children_predisposed_to_bipo\

lar_disorder

>

> Stanford, Packard Research Finds Better Drug Therapy for Children

> Predisposed to Bipolar Disorder

> Tue Aug 26, 8:00 PM ET

>

> Source: Stanford University Medical Center

>

> STANFORD, CA -- Children with psychiatric problems who also have a high

risk

> of developing bipolar disorder respond well to a mood-stabilizing drug,

> according to a study that is the first to examine the drug's effect on

> children predisposed to bipolar disorder. The researchers at Stanford

> University School of Medicine and Lucile Packard Children's Hospital say

> determining the correct medication for these children is crucial because

> standard drug therapies, such as antidepressants and stimulants, may in

fact

> trigger manic episodes, exacerbating their underlying condition.

>

> In a study published in the August 2003 issue of the Journal of Clinical

> Psychiatry, the researchers found that more than three-quarters of these

> at-risk children showed improvement in their mood or behavioral disorders

> after receiving a drug called divalproex. The drug, used to treat mania in

> adults, essentially " cools off the brain, " said Kiki Chang, MD, assistant

> professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at the School of Medicine

> and a psychiatrist at Packard Children's Hospital.

>

> Bipolar disorder affects 2.2 million Americans, who experience extreme and

> debilitating highs and lows. Children known as " bipolar offspring " - who

> have a parent with bipolar disorder but have not yet developed the

disorder

> themselves - and who suffer from other psychiatric problems are more

likely

> to develop the disease.

>

> Researchers studied 23 bipolar offspring between the ages of 6 and 18 who

> had attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder or ADHD, depression or other

> mood disorders. These children showed signs of depression or mania but did

> not meet the criteria for bipolar I or II disorder, though they were

> considered at risk. Previous studies have estimated that bipolar offspring

> have up to a 24 percent chance of developing the disease, and ADHD might

be

> a predictor.

>

> Researchers evaluated patients at the start of the trial, assessing them

for

> manic and depressive symptoms and determining the severity of their

> conditions. After stopping any current medications, the children took

> divalproex for 12 weeks and underwent periodic re-evaluations. While there

> was no placebo control group, researchers monitored the participants for a

> relatively long time, said Chang, first author of the paper.

>

> Of the study participants, 78 percent were " very much improved " or " much

> improved " in their mood or behavioral disorders and 82 percent showed at

> least a 50 percent decrease in their ratings of depressive or manic

> symptoms. Children with depression responded dramatically to the

medication

> after as little as one week of treatment.

>

> " What was most surprising was how quickly the patients responded, and that

> patients with depression responded so well to divalproex, " Chang said.

While

> traditional drugs are effective for most children, they can lead to an

> earlier onset of a manic episode for children at risk of bipolar disorder.

> The trick then becomes to determine which children are likely to be

> predisposed to the illness.

>

> Chang and his colleagues in the Stanford Pediatric Bipolar Disorders

Program

> are conducting separate studies investigating the genetics and brain

> physiology of bipolar offspring to search for indicators. The scientists

are

> also designing another divalproex experiment with a placebo component and

> will conduct a study monitoring these children to determine if, and when,

> they develop bipolar disease. They will also investigate non-drug

> interventions, such as family-focused therapies. " Our goal is to identify

> these children early for treatment and perhaps prevention, " he said. " If

we

> can prevent bipolar disease in childhood, we can prevent later treatment

> resistance and future complications like substance abuse, poor work and

> school performance, and even suicide. "

>

> It is possible that divalproex not only relieves the mood and behavioral

> problems of bipolar offspring, but also delays or prevents the onset of

the

> disorder, Chang noted. Studies of the drug in cell cultures and mice

suggest

> that it can help protect the brain, but such studies have not been done in

> humans.

>

> For now, though, Chang hopes to alert psychiatrists to the possibility

that

> children predisposed to bipolar disorder will respond poorly to standard

> medications for other mood and behavior disorders and that there are

> alternative treatment options. " We want to raise awareness about these

kids

> and the idea that perhaps they will be better treated with mood

> stabilizers, " he said.

>

> Families with at least one parent with bipolar disorder and a child with

> early indicators of the disorder or bipolar disorder itself and who are

> interested in participating in future studies can contact Meghan Howe at

> 650-736-2688 or meghowe@.... Volunteers will receive a full

> evaluation for all family members and may be eligible to participate in

> brain imaging, genetics or medication studies.

>

> Chang's co-authors are Dienes, research assistant;

> Blasey, PhD, research psychologist; Adleman, graduate student;

Terence

> Ketter, MD, associate professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences; and

> Hans Steiner, MD, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences.

>

> The research was supported by grants from Abbott Laboratories, which makes

> divalproex; the National Alliance for Research on Schizophrenia and

> Depression; and the Klingenstein Third Generation Foundation.

>

> Visit www.acurian.com for more information on new and emerging medical

> therapies and clinical trial enrollment opportunities in your condition(s)

> of interest. Sign up for customized email updates and visit our

> one-of-a-kind Quick Results Center at www.acurian.com/patient

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls.

> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

>

October 2, 2003

Hi I want to limit your emails to once a week How do I do this ?

cures for AIDS wrote:

Read AIDS-Cured

January 9, 2004

Hi Carol,

Please send me an email letting me know exactly when you will be up and when

you will have the time, and I'd love to get together! Maybe we can do lunch!

Just email me any time at:

mischelle17@...

I'd love to hear from you :-)

Cheers

Mischelle in Oz

Progressive loss due to childhood measles

Severe/profound by early 20's - HA's for 30 years!

Nucleus 24 Contour, August 2000 and wearing the ESPrit 3G!

Consumer Advocate

Cochlear Ltd, Sydney, Australia

Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:52:33 +1100

From: " Carolanne Drage " <cdrage@...>

Subject: Re: RE: Mischelle - off topic

Hi Mischelle,

I am coming to sydney the last weekend of april would love to catch up.

Sorry I am not bringing Kristian only the rat bag of a puppy.

regurds

Carol mother Kristian 9 N22 aug 96 N24 sept 03

_________________________________________________________________

ninemsn Premium transforms your e-mail with colours, photos and animated

text. Click here http://ninemsn.com.au/premium/landing.asp

October 11, 2005

Tobhik wrote: Any body knows any research about the avian flu virus vs

vco?

There's a website--it has been down for a few days--called

www.lauric.org where research is ongoing.

March 6, 2006

Hotep,

It's been a long time since I've been around, but I'm finding time now to

get into sprouting again. I need to comment on the below response.

First, lightly cooked, steamed and slightly rotted food are actually more

beneficial than either totally raw or totally cooked food. The above methods

break down the tough fibrous outside of vegetables which allows access to the

nutrients. We get very little benefit from just chewing because of the

design of our teeth and stomach. Just think of the method cows use to digest

their food.

Also, I'd like to speak to the difference between rotting, fermenting and

cultured foods. Yogurt is a cultured food, not a rotted or fermented one.

Bacteria has been added to milk to produce the yogurt and yes it is very

beneficial. Fermentation is controlled rotting and produces poisons. These

poisons

can be enjoyable (think of wine), but are not very healthy. Yeast, which I

think you were getting confused with yogurt, needs to be present in order for

food to ferment. Rotting is the process of fermentation without the yeast.

In a message dated 03/07/2006 3:21:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

writes:

Message: 5

Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:33:08 -0600 (CST)

From: <003marklanders@...>

Subject: Re: Re: from book of essene peace gospels

I sometimes wonder how much we don't know about the benefits of uncooked

foods (like sprouts). We cook to kill parasites and break down anti-nutrients

in

grains and legumes; necessary but... what are we losing?

One caveat; " rotted " foods (fermentation) can be very healthful, think of

yogurt.

>Greetings! Your information is most timely as I was asking about Essene

bread and whole sprouted bread. The website may help my awareness as since

1996 there has been this curiosity of the Essene bread which I feel important

to

learn about. ****TheLady

>

>magnolia filbert <rootdoctor2002@...> wrote: some very interesting

info about raw foods and grains, grass, sprouts from www.essene.com

Until Later,

Floating DarkMoon, the Organic Soul Woman

Hut Sut Ra

The Portal - _http://geocities.com/floatdarkmoon_

(http://geocities.com/floatdarkmoon) - Newly updated!

ICQ - 279939740

AOL AIM - Floatdarkmoon or Newvegesprout

******************************************************************************

*******

March 7, 2006

It is delightful to see your good words again. Our new college textbook on

Nutrition has a section in each chapter called 'The Chemists Viewpoint' and it

quite thoroughly and technically explains the particular and highly beneficial

nutrients that are released from plant based foods via the heating, fermenting,

and culturing processes. The professor invariably mentions the importance of

maintaining a well balanced diet and stresses the need to educate ourselves and

our children in order to make the informed balanced choices needed to maintain a

healthy lifestyle. Aho,

newvegesprout@... wrote:

Hotep,

It's been a long time since I've been around, but I'm finding time now to

get into sprouting again. I need to comment on the below response.

First, lightly cooked, steamed and slightly rotted food are actually more

beneficial than either totally raw or totally cooked food. The above methods

break down the tough fibrous outside of vegetables which allows access to the

nutrients. We get very little benefit from just chewing because of the

design of our teeth and stomach. Just think of the method cows use to digest

their food.

Also, I'd like to speak to the difference between rotting, fermenting and

cultured foods. Yogurt is a cultured food, not a rotted or fermented one.

Bacteria has been added to milk to produce the yogurt and yes it is very

beneficial. Fermentation is controlled rotting and produces poisons. These

poisons

can be enjoyable (think of wine), but are not very healthy. Yeast, which I

think you were getting confused with yogurt, needs to be present in order for

food to ferment. Rotting is the process of fermentation without the yeast.

In a message dated 03/07/2006 3:21:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

writes:

Message: 5

Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:33:08 -0600 (CST)

From: <003marklanders@...>

Subject: Re: Re: from book of essene peace gospels

I sometimes wonder how much we don't know about the benefits of uncooked

foods (like sprouts). We cook to kill parasites and break down anti-nutrients

in

grains and legumes; necessary but... what are we losing?

One caveat; " rotted " foods (fermentation) can be very healthful, think of

yogurt.

>Greetings! Your information is most timely as I was asking about Essene

bread and whole sprouted bread. The website may help my awareness as since

1996 there has been this curiosity of the Essene bread which I feel important

to

learn about. ****TheLady

>

>magnolia filbert <rootdoctor2002@...> wrote: some very interesting

info about raw foods and grains, grass, sprouts from www.essene.com

Until Later,

Floating DarkMoon, the Organic Soul Woman

Hut Sut Ra

The Portal - _http://geocities.com/floatdarkmoon_

(http://geocities.com/floatdarkmoon) - Newly updated!

ICQ - 279939740

AOL AIM - Floatdarkmoon or Newvegesprout

******************************************************************************

*******

March 7, 2006

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE EBBOK LINK!

Sherri Tutkus RN, BSN, NAAC

Nutraceutical Anti-Aging Consultant

www.RN4u2.com (Nutraceuticals, Natural Medicine Database)

www.RN4u2.Isotonix.com (Drink Your Vitamans)

www.RN4u2.transitionslife.com (Realistic Weight Management)

www.TutkusTreasures.com (endless shopping experience)

www.marketamerica.com America's Most Powerful Business Opportunity

Partered with:

Beverly , CN, RN - www.AlzheimerCoachingServices.com

Janeen Alves, Fitness Specialist & Personal Trainer -

www.positiveresultspersonaltraining.com

, Reikki Master - www.Focusonthelight.unfranchise.com

Charlie Malis, MD - www.drmalis.unfranchise.com

Leslee Quick, DC - www.quickchiro.unfranchise.com

Delany, MD - www.drdelany.com

Buckley- www.BalancedChi.org

The Raw Secrets:An E-book You Should Know About

The Raw Secrets:

The Most Acclaimed Raw Food Book!

**********************************************

Did you know that you can double your energy levels and rejuvenate your

body with raw foods? But warning: not all raw food diets are the same! Find out

the truth about raw in the bestseller, " The Raw Secrets " -- For more

information, go to:

http://www.allthedownloads.com/HEF/HEF1.html

NECESSARY LEGAL INFORMATION:

I do not send these mails unsolicited. If you are receiving this

email from me itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s because you have subscribed to this group. If you

receive this email and are not a subscriber then someone, other than me, has

forwarded it to you.

Note:

If anyone is having any problem by receiving this Email, please let me

know, so that i can do my best to solve your problem.

P.S. I am in the same SAFELIST group as you. This is not SPAM. Thank you

very much.

---------------------------------

Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

March 7, 2006

Yes, the definition of a " ferment " is culturing with yeast. Poisons aren't

always the result; think of bread. Bacteria are almost omnipresent; " cultured "

milk and other foods (pickles!) were probably serendipitous discoveries.

>

>Hotep,

>

>It's been a long time since I've been around, but I'm finding time now to

>get into sprouting again. I need to comment on the below response.

>

>First, lightly cooked, steamed and slightly rotted food are actually more

>beneficial than either totally raw or totally cooked food. The above methods

>break down the tough fibrous outside of vegetables which allows access to the

>nutrients. We get very little benefit from just chewing because of the

>design of our teeth and stomach. Just think of the method cows use to digest

>their food.

>

>Also, I'd like to speak to the difference between rotting, fermenting and

>cultured foods. Yogurt is a cultured food, not a rotted or fermented one.

>Bacteria has been added to milk to produce the yogurt and yes it is very

>beneficial. Fermentation is controlled rotting and produces poisons. These

poisons

>can be enjoyable (think of wine), but are not very healthy. Yeast, which I

>think you were getting confused with yogurt, needs to be present in order for

>food to ferment. Rotting is the process of fermentation without the yeast.

>

>In a message dated 03/07/2006 3:21:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> writes:

>

>Message: 5

>Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:33:08 -0600 (CST)

>From: <003marklanders@...>

>Subject: Re: Re: from book of essene peace gospels

>

>I sometimes wonder how much we don't know about the benefits of uncooked

>foods (like sprouts). We cook to kill parasites and break down anti-nutrients

in

>grains and legumes; necessary but... what are we losing?

>

>One caveat; " rotted " foods (fermentation) can be very healthful, think of

>yogurt.

>

>>Greetings! Your information is most timely as I was asking about Essene

>bread and whole sprouted bread. The website may help my awareness as since

>1996 there has been this curiosity of the Essene bread which I feel important

to

>learn about. ****TheLady

>>

>>magnolia filbert <rootdoctor2002@...> wrote: some very interesting

>info about raw foods and grains, grass, sprouts from www.essene.com

>

>Until Later,

>

>Floating DarkMoon, the Organic Soul Woman

>Hut Sut Ra

>

>The Portal - _http://geocities.com/floatdarkmoon_

>(http://geocities.com/floatdarkmoon) - Newly updated!

>

>ICQ - 279939740

>AOL AIM - Floatdarkmoon or Newvegesprout

>******************************************************************************

>*******

>

Sign In

Re: Digest Number 795

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest