klonopin

[Guest guest]

Sorry you went through this, Rosie. Believe me, you're not alone. I

know dozens of benzo people who became suicidal on these drugs.

Ashton is well known in the benzo world. She has people cross over to

valium to taper off cause it has a long half life and is available in

small dosages. However the crossover from klonopin to valium does not

work for some people and as klonopin is twenty times stronger than

valium, it is hard to get off by shaving the pill with a razor blade.

That is why I am trying to tell people about the water titration

method if they are interested in getting off their benzos with

minimal withdrawal symptoms.

Glad you are doing better. I am too. If I ever see another CFIDS

specialist and they tell me to take klonopin, I will have a few

choice things to say about that idea.

Helen

> Hi Helen,

> Twelve months ago I became depressed for the first time. All the

> antidepressants I was given reacted badly and I was put on

clonazepam

> (klonopin) for 4 weeks and later on diazepam. Both were a very bad

idea

> and reduced me to suicidal. I got myself off the diazepam which had

> taken over from the clonazepam using Ashtons protocol (if

you

> put her name in a search engine it should come up).

>

> Interestingly she says that 0.5mg of clonazepam is equivalent to 10

mg

> of diazepam, which is an awful lot. She suggests switching from any

> benzo to it's equivalent dose of diazepam because the titration of

the

> latter is smaller and the half life longer, so withdrawal is

smoother.

>

> I can remember reading a bit about Stevie Nicks saying it was very

much

> easier to get off cocaine than klonopin, those benzos are horrid.

Mind

> you you really notice tbe difference for the better once they are

out of

> your system, so it's very much worth the withdrawal.

>

> Rosie

> Subject: klonopin

>

>

>

> I was put on klonopin for insomnia. They say it's not addictive and

> it's not in the sense you don't crave it, but it creates dependency

> nonetheless. It can also cause depression which hit me hard and

> getting off it was terrible. I learned a water titration method

which

> I share with anyone interested, it allows you to make very small

cuts

> by crushing your pill and putting it in suspension in water.

>

> Helen

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with

> each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in

any

> treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, everyone is different re chemicals, that is very true. A doctor

told me 50% of people can taper off a benzo gradually without undue

problems, but I was in the other 50%.

Helen

> While I don't disagree that it is hard to get off klonopin, I have

heard from someone who is having a hard time and has researched this

a lot, that it is much easier for some people, and more difficult for

others. Also, I have taken it for 6 or 7 years now and have never

been the least bit depressed. So it is not an absolute.

>

> Doris

>

>

[Guest guest]

:

See the method I posted for Will. And please work with a doctor. This

method was devised by an engineer, not a doctor. I worked with a

doctor for my entire withdrawal. If you join benzo at , there is

a list of benzowise doctors in the files area.

best of luck to you and feel free to write me offlist if you want,

Helen

>

>

> I was put on klonopin for insomnia. They say it's not addictive and

> it's not in the sense you don't crave it, but it creates dependency

> nonetheless. It can also cause depression which hit me hard and

> getting off it was terrible. I learned a water titration method

which

> I share with anyone interested, it allows you to make very small

cuts

> by crushing your pill and putting it in suspension in water.

>

> Helen

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested

in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This drug worked for me very well at first............

You would not want to hear what happened to me with this drug..and I

don't feel I can say either. I was on this drug until January and

feeling just a slight improvement each day now was the right time to

cut back on 'the drugs'. I did just cut back gradually for a few days

at a time until none...That was the best feeling I had had for a long

time having already kicked the anti-depressants I started to feel in

control of my life again.I am sure the natural supplements I take

have made a huge difference. It has worked ok for me but I still

appreciate these drugs can work ok for others. Hugs Dianne

[Guest guest]

I've heard bad things about klonipin for some people. I have to say I

take temezapem for sleep ever since getting lyme, and sometimes I

overuse it (for me). I find that I do best when I fall asleep by some

other means (I have an LED device that helps, and occasionally take a

smidge of melatonin) and then use it to fall BACK asleep. Sometimes

when I am very keyed up, wired, anxious, or whatever, I will use it

more than that, and that's when I find myself getting somewhat

depressed. My conclusion is that it screws up some stage of sleep,

and that leads to the depression, and that if you get even some

normal sleep, it won't. I could be wrong, but it seems to be so in my

case. If, a few nights in a row, I take it both to fall asleep and to

fall back asleep, even if in small amounts (I never take a whole

capsule), I feel depressed the next day. I notice a distinct

difference. Now I understand klonipin is the worst of all the benzos,

but I just thought I would mention this. I feel I've been overusing

the temezapem myself, for what works best for me is once a night, a

small amount, whenever I wake up somehwere between 3-5, depending

when I went to sleep.

BTW I have heard from others that the infrared in the LED devices

also helps them relax and sleep.

> >

> >

> > I was put on klonopin for insomnia. They say it's not addictive

and

> > it's not in the sense you don't crave it, but it creates

dependency

> > nonetheless. It can also cause depression which hit me hard and

> > getting off it was terrible. I learned a water titration method

> which

> > I share with anyone interested, it allows you to make very small

> cuts

> > by crushing your pill and putting it in suspension in water.

> >

> > Helen

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

> with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested

> in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I am also wondering--Kurt explained to me about drugs and p450, and

the subsets of it that detoxify drugs. We all are different. Perhaps

those having the worst trouble on klonipin actually had much higher

blood levels than most, because their liver p450 enzymes were

metabolizing it very slowly. WHereas fast metabolizers of a drug, get

lower amounts. Just a thought.

> Hi all,

>

> A word of warning about Klonopin. My friend's doctor has had her

on this

> drug for years. Recently she was depressed (She has hashimoto's

disease - her

> thyroid produces no hormone). She went to the doc and found she

needed a

> higher dose of thyroid. This in itself will depress you.

>

> Anyway, he doubled her Klonopin. She went to dinner with her

hubby and had

> 2 glasses of wine. Then she passed out cold - she was non-

responsive. They

> took her to the emergency room. They told her that, at that dose

of

> Klonopin, any alcohol at all can put you in a coma!

>

> I hope they file a complaint on that doctor. He could have killed

her.

>

> I know most of you probably can't drink, but if you are on Klonopin

and must

> have a drink, do it several hours apart. And ask your doctor or

pharmacist

> about this.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Jody J.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

See Cheney on Klonopin:

http://www.virtualhometown.com/dfwcfids/medical/klonopin.html

Anyone know if he's changed his mind about this?

Kathy F.

[Guest guest]

The benzos sedate the digestive and immune systems as well as the rest

of the nervous system. I think this is a primary reason to find

alternative treatments. For years I depended on benzos. The important

thing to remember is that benzos are anti-anxiety meds, and not true

sleep inducers. They stimulate GABA release, which has a calming effect

on the CNS. If you need benzos to sleep, you have a primary anxiety

problem. And co-infections probably have contributed, worsening a

pre-existent state. If you can solve the anxiety, you can probably

sleep. But you have to solve the anxiety 24x7, not just for a few hours

at night.

In order to get off benzos, you have two choices. 1. replace them with

something else; 2. solve the original cause and eliminate the need for

them. I tried 1 and found that sedating my self with any other drug or

herb or hormone (melatonin) had side-effects and was not a long-term

solution. Just dodging the bullets. Sooner or later you have to work

through 2 to fix the problem.

And to fix 2 you have to solve ALL anxiety and tension in your life, AND

find a way to re-learn to relax while going to sleep, even when you

don't feel well or have pain or had stress in the day. And this is hard

with co-infections because they aggravate any anxiety/tension you feel.

But it is possible, I am evidence of that. I was the worst of the worst

cases. I had absolute insomnia for 7 years with only one period of

remission for about 6 months when I first went on abx. And it just got

worse and worse. I would have died without the benzos. I realized that

I was failing at finding the cause. So I focused on lots of holistic

changes, a LOT of them over about a year long period, and that finally

released the stress/tension response to the co-infection toxins and

allowed me to sleep naturally again. And getting off the benzos

improved my digestion immediately, and my immune system came back to

life. I believe the better sleeps is allowing a more natural healing

process to progress now.

And this holistic approach included adding minerals (the salt/c

protocol) which were important, going through 9 months of deep-level

emotional processing, used a guided anti-anxiety meditation for about 6

months (purchased from www.panic-anxiety.com

<http://www.panic-anxiety.com/> ), and using a hot pack around the neck

24x7 for relaxation, which was critical. Also, I addressed my mental

hyperactivity (a form of ADD) using meditation methods I created to help

re-learn how to have balanced brain usage, and that was very important.

I eventually re-trained my body and I now can relax again, and even have

slept during the day sometimes, which I have not ever done before in my

adult life. I know now that I have finally started to 'overcome' a

life-long problem. And I believe the solution is tied to learning 24x7

relaxation and re-training the mind-body to rest.

I believe one of the handicaps we all face with this disease (or these

diseases if you believe there are more than one), is the modern medical

paradigm of 'reductionism' in which we analyze and study the minute

details of whatever we can measure, and generate medical 'factiods' from

that and then try to find a treatment from those factoids. Sort of like

the blind men and the elephant. My own improvement only started when I

decided to start addressing the whole elephant, and that required a

holistic approach.

--Kurt

Re: klonopin

I've heard bad things about klonipin for some people. I have to say I

take temezapem for sleep ever since getting lyme, and sometimes I

overuse it (for me). I find that I do best when I fall asleep by some

other means (I have an LED device that helps, and occasionally take a

smidge of melatonin) and then use it to fall BACK asleep. Sometimes

when I am very keyed up, wired, anxious, or whatever, I will use it

[Guest guest]

Not sure what you mean by the benzos " sedate " the immune system. Are

you suggesting the benzos impair immune function?

The problem for me with chronic lyme is that my entire neurological

system is hair trigger. Sleep is difficult. My bladder (neurogenic)

is much more touchy. My anxiety levels are higher. Sounds bother me

more etc. I find that temezapem quiets it all...but as I discovered,

if I use it the whole night, I'm screwed. I feel groggy and depressed

and just don't feel like me. But if I don't use it at all, more

bladder problems, more haywire feelings, and horrible fatigue. I'm

best if I fall asleep on my own through other methods and then when I

wake (often if one of my earplugs falls out--NYC is never quiet and

I'm probably awakened by some horn or siren or something), take some

eto go back to sleep, I'm a bit groggy in the morning, but seem to

have achieved some balance between the two poles. It's the best I can

do until I conquer lyme. Also, genetically, my mother had a bad

anxiety disorder and agorophobia, and my father was phobic in

different ways, so I feel my genetic setpoint is a bit high--that I

actually do well with very judicious supplementation of gaba receptor

drugs. Long before lyme, I remember sometimes getting into panics

myself, especially at night, and having to calm myself with spiritual

books etc, sometimes for hours. That never happens anymore. So we all

have our individual genetics. Perhaps even if I got over lyme, and

was pretty healthy, I might take a bit of this pill a few times a

week.

> The benzos sedate the digestive and immune systems as well as the

rest

> of the nervous system. I think this is a primary reason to find

> alternative treatments. For years I depended on benzos. The

important

> thing to remember is that benzos are anti-anxiety meds, and not true

> sleep inducers. They stimulate GABA release, which has a calming

effect

> on the CNS. If you need benzos to sleep, you have a primary anxiety

> problem. And co-infections probably have contributed, worsening a

> pre-existent state. If you can solve the anxiety, you can probably

> sleep. But you have to solve the anxiety 24x7, not just for a few

hours

> at night.

>

> In order to get off benzos, you have two choices. 1. replace them

with

> something else; 2. solve the original cause and eliminate the need

for

> them. I tried 1 and found that sedating my self with any other

drug or

> herb or hormone (melatonin) had side-effects and was not a long-term

> solution. Just dodging the bullets. Sooner or later you have to

work

> through 2 to fix the problem.

>

> And to fix 2 you have to solve ALL anxiety and tension in your

life, AND

> find a way to re-learn to relax while going to sleep, even when you

> don't feel well or have pain or had stress in the day. And this is

hard

> with co-infections because they aggravate any anxiety/tension you

feel.

> But it is possible, I am evidence of that. I was the worst of the

worst

> cases. I had absolute insomnia for 7 years with only one period of

> remission for about 6 months when I first went on abx. And it just

got

> worse and worse. I would have died without the benzos. I realized

that

> I was failing at finding the cause. So I focused on lots of

holistic

> changes, a LOT of them over about a year long period, and that

finally

> released the stress/tension response to the co-infection toxins and

> allowed me to sleep naturally again. And getting off the benzos

> improved my digestion immediately, and my immune system came back to

> life. I believe the better sleeps is allowing a more natural

healing

> process to progress now.

>

> And this holistic approach included adding minerals (the salt/c

> protocol) which were important, going through 9 months of deep-level

> emotional processing, used a guided anti-anxiety meditation for

about 6

> months (purchased from www.panic-anxiety.com

> <http://www.panic-anxiety.com/> ), and using a hot pack around the

neck

> 24x7 for relaxation, which was critical. Also, I addressed my

mental

> hyperactivity (a form of ADD) using meditation methods I created to

help

> re-learn how to have balanced brain usage, and that was very

important.

> I eventually re-trained my body and I now can relax again, and even

have

> slept during the day sometimes, which I have not ever done before

in my

> adult life. I know now that I have finally started to 'overcome' a

> life-long problem. And I believe the solution is tied to learning

24x7

> relaxation and re-training the mind-body to rest.

>

> I believe one of the handicaps we all face with this disease (or

these

> diseases if you believe there are more than one), is the modern

medical

> paradigm of 'reductionism' in which we analyze and study the minute

> details of whatever we can measure, and generate medical 'factiods'

from

> that and then try to find a treatment from those factoids. Sort of

like

> the blind men and the elephant. My own improvement only started

when I

> decided to start addressing the whole elephant, and that required a

> holistic approach.

>

> --Kurt

>

> Re: klonopin

>

>

> I've heard bad things about klonipin for some people. I have to say

I

> take temezapem for sleep ever since getting lyme, and sometimes I

> overuse it (for me). I find that I do best when I fall asleep by

some

> other means (I have an LED device that helps, and occasionally take

a

> smidge of melatonin) and then use it to fall BACK asleep. Sometimes

> when I am very keyed up, wired, anxious, or whatever, I will use it

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kurt said:

" And to fix 2 you have to solve ALL anxiety and tension in your life, AND find

a way to re-learn to relax while going to sleep, even when you don't feel well

or have pain or had stress in the day. And this is hard with co-infections

because they aggravate any anxiety/tension you feel. But it is possible... "

I have found myself so tense at night when I lay down that the tension in my

neck and shoulders are tighter all night long, creating more tightness when I

awaken. I have to remind myself to lay there and relax those neck, shoulder and

back muscles and gently stretch them before I go to sleep or I am a mess all

night and the next day!

Oh, another add to the doctor note~she said I was depressed and suggested

antidepressants. I told her, who wouldn't be depressed with this illness and

all the stress I've gone through the past four years with 7 family members

dying, a husband with clinical depression, diabetes 2, a fractious teenager (now

doing well), purging and moving three households and helping a 73-yr old

father-in-law with FMS/CFS/depression/diabetes~but that I don't have clinical

depression, just FMS/CFS. Her answer is that antidepressants help our ailment~I

don't want to feel loopy or have the side effects so will add St. 's Wort to

all the other supplements I am supposed to take to feel better (if my stomach

can handle another bunch of pills to what I already take). in La Selva

Beach, CA

[Guest guest]

WHen I hear that you have fms/cfs and your father in law has it too,

I figure you both have lyme.

Not a lot is known about the interactions of immune/nervous systems,

but antidepressants might help with chronic infections, directly, for

all we know. ANtipsychotics reduce viral replication in schizophrenia.

I wouldnt' take them, but they might help many people. I'm too

sensitive to drugs myself.

> Oh, another add to the doctor note~she said I was depressed and

suggested antidepressants. I told her, who wouldn't be depressed

with this illness and all the stress I've gone through the past four

years with 7 family members dying, a husband with clinical

depression, diabetes 2, a fractious teenager (now doing well),

purging and moving three households and helping a 73-yr old father-in-

law with FMS/CFS/depression/diabetes~but that I don't have clinical

depression, just FMS/CFS. Her answer is that antidepressants help

our ailment~I don't want to feel loopy or have the side effects so

will add St. 's Wort to all the other supplements I am supposed

to take to feel better (if my stomach can handle another bunch of

pills to what I already take). in La Selva Beach, CA

>

>

[Guest guest]

-Yes, I think so too, I wish doctors would test for this before they put

you on drugs. Figures in bad reactions to SSRIs, also, which possibly

could be foreseen with a test.

Helen

-- In , " jill1313 "

<jenbooks13@h...> wrote:

>

> I am also wondering--Kurt explained to me about drugs and p450, and

> the subsets of it that detoxify drugs. We all are different. Perhaps

> those having the worst trouble on klonipin actually had much higher

> blood levels than most, because their liver p450 enzymes were

> metabolizing it very slowly. WHereas fast metabolizers of a drug, get

> lower amounts. Just a thought.

>

>

> > Hi all,

> >

> > A word of warning about Klonopin. My friend's doctor has had her

> on this

> > drug for years. Recently she was depressed (She has hashimoto's

> disease - her

> > thyroid produces no hormone). She went to the doc and found she

> needed a

> > higher dose of thyroid. This in itself will depress you.

> >

> > Anyway, he doubled her Klonopin. She went to dinner with her

> hubby and had

> > 2 glasses of wine. Then she passed out cold - she was non-

> responsive. They

> > took her to the emergency room. They told her that, at that dose

> of

> > Klonopin, any alcohol at all can put you in a coma!

> >

> > I hope they file a complaint on that doctor. He could have killed

> her.

> >

> > I know most of you probably can't drink, but if you are on Klonopin

> and must

> > have a drink, do it several hours apart. And ask your doctor or

> pharmacist

> > about this.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> > Jody J.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

My daughter (college student with CFIDS-Lyme) had very bad RLS with

Tourette type problems, and they both went away, even the Tourettes,

when she went on the Feingold diet. That means removing all artificial

ingredients from the diet. (www.feingold.org <http://www.feingold.org/>

). Our guess was that it was really a liver detox issue, because

Feingold reduces the tox load. Also, she went off MSG, which helped a

lot (that was HARD to accomplish, but Feingold helped). She had

Tourettes from about age 4 until age 18 (when she went on Feingold), and

the RLS from about age 12 to 18. She still has the CFIDS-Lyme but

usually is free of the RLS. She occasionally gets a little RLS with a

bad virus still, but very rarely, and it does not last long.

--Kurt

klonopin

I take 2 mg to sleep at night and prevent restless leg problems. I

probably am addicted but I want to function and this is the only drug

along with 50 mg of elivil that helps me. Also are there any machines

that we can buy to releive headaches. My chiropractor used the

ultrasound on me yesterday and the headache went away. I have the alpha

stim machine and that helps to relax me. I wonder if there are any low

ultrasound devices we can buy? or electro stim? joyce kaye

[Guest guest]

There is no test yet for the p450 enzyme problems, but I believe there

is one in clinical testing. Right now it is a clinical diagnosis, based

on a history of reactions to multiple drugs that fall into one of the

enzyme categories.

I think the solution is to test all drugs at low dose first. There

should be micro test-doses available for every drug that is processed by

the liver, every doctor should do this with every new prescription IMHO.

Maybe someday.

Re: Klonopin

-Yes, I think so too, I wish doctors would test for this before they put

you on drugs. Figures in bad reactions to SSRIs, also, which possibly

could be foreseen with a test.

Helen

-- In , " jill1313 "

<jenbooks13@h...> wrote:

>

> I am also wondering--Kurt explained to me about drugs and p450, and

> the subsets of it that detoxify drugs. We all are different. Perhaps

> those having the worst trouble on klonipin actually had much higher

> blood levels than most, because their liver p450 enzymes were

> metabolizing it very slowly. WHereas fast metabolizers of a drug, get

> lower amounts. Just a thought.

>

>

> > Hi all,

> >

> > A word of warning about Klonopin. My friend's doctor has had her

> on this

> > drug for years. Recently she was depressed (She has hashimoto's

> disease - her

> > thyroid produces no hormone). She went to the doc and found she

> needed a

> > higher dose of thyroid. This in itself will depress you.

> >

> > Anyway, he doubled her Klonopin. She went to dinner with her

> hubby and had

> > 2 glasses of wine. Then she passed out cold - she was non-

> responsive. They

> > took her to the emergency room. They told her that, at that dose

> of

> > Klonopin, any alcohol at all can put you in a coma!

> >

> > I hope they file a complaint on that doctor. He could have killed

> her.

> >

> > I know most of you probably can't drink, but if you are on Klonopin

> and must

> > have a drink, do it several hours apart. And ask your doctor or

> pharmacist

> > about this.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> > Jody J.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I just don't believe this is true. On the very rare occasion that i have

anxiety, klonopin does nothing for it. But mostly, it doesn't do anything to

help me get to sleep, which would be the case if you were right and it only

helps sleep by treating anxiety. What it DOES do, is allow me to sleep in the

right stage. Without it I am in that half awake / half asleep stage all night

(there is a name for it but I can't remember it). I walk up feeling like I

never got any sleep at all

Doris

--------------------------------------------------

The important

thing to remember is that benzos are anti-anxiety meds, and not true

sleep inducers. They stimulate GABA release, which has a calming effect

on the CNS. If you need benzos to sleep, you have a primary anxiety

problem.

[Guest guest]

i agree with doris. i take clonazepam to sleep, and one of the few problems

i *don't* have is anxiety. but i still don't get past stage one sleep,

unfortunately. (but without it, i probably would be awake for days!)

and like doris, on the rare occasion that i feel anxious about something,

the clonazepam makes no difference.

--maggie

Re: Re: klonopin

:

: I just don't believe this is true. On the very rare occasion that i have

anxiety, klonopin does nothing for it. But mostly, it doesn't do anything

to help me get to sleep, which would be the case if you were right and it

only helps sleep by treating anxiety. What it DOES do, is allow me to sleep

in the right stage. Without it I am in that half awake / half asleep stage

all night (there is a name for it but I can't remember it). I walk up

feeling like I never got any sleep at all

:

: Doris

: --------------------------------------------------

: The important

: thing to remember is that benzos are anti-anxiety meds, and not true

: sleep inducers. They stimulate GABA release, which has a calming effect

: on the CNS. If you need benzos to sleep, you have a primary anxiety

: problem.

:

:

[Guest guest]

Maybe it would be more correct to say the short-acting benzos are

anti-anxiety meds. But even Klonopin is listed as a drug to treat

panic. See

http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/rxdrugprofiles/drugs/klo1214.shtml.

I know the doctors often don't describe the benzos as anti-anxiety meds,

I was told they were for sleep, and for sedating my symptoms.

Also, you may have underlying anxieties that you are not aware of. I

got off benzos by working on both automatic/subconscious responses and

the conscious responses to stress. But this is a complex area, I don't

think anyone fully understands the situation. I can not fully

understand why I got better, I did not think I ever would.I just know

what I did that finally worked, and it was treating ALL anxiety

holistically, including latent anxiety that was deep in my background,

and things I do not often think of consciously that still were driving

my responses. The hardest part was learning to relax through pain and

fatigue, which ordinarily is agitating to me, but even that eventually

became possible. This actually may be an explanation for part of this

disease, because it seems that some of us just don't tolerate the

continual pain and discomforts of these blasted co-infections. then

stress builds up, the immune system goes down (a response to stress),

and the problems start compounding. Probably not quite that simple, but

one way to look at things.

Here is another possibility - maybe I found a way to boost my own benzo

production through some of the digestive treatments I was following,

that also may have contributed to getting off the benzo drugs

(benzodiazepine is produced naturally in the digestive system).

--Kurt

Re: Re: klonopin

I just don't believe this is true. On the very rare occasion that i

have anxiety, klonopin does nothing for it. But mostly, it doesn't do

anything to help me get to sleep, which would be the case if you were

right and it only helps sleep by treating anxiety. What it DOES do, is

allow me to sleep in the right stage. Without it I am in that half

awake / half asleep stage all night (there is a name for it but I can't

remember it). I walk up feeling like I never got any sleep at all

Doris

--------------------------------------------------

The important

thing to remember is that benzos are anti-anxiety meds, and not true

sleep inducers. They stimulate GABA release, which has a calming effect

on the CNS. If you need benzos to sleep, you have a primary anxiety

problem.

[Guest guest]

benzos are in a class but each is different. temezapem is definitely

a muscle relaxant as well.

> I just don't believe this is true. On the very rare occasion that

i have anxiety, klonopin does nothing for it. But mostly, it doesn't

do anything to help me get to sleep, which would be the case if you

were right and it only helps sleep by treating anxiety. What it DOES

do, is allow me to sleep in the right stage. Without it I am in that

half awake / half asleep stage all night (there is a name for it but

I can't remember it). I walk up feeling like I never got any sleep

at all

>

> Doris

> --------------------------------------------------

> The important

> thing to remember is that benzos are anti-anxiety meds, and not true

> sleep inducers. They stimulate GABA release, which has a calming

effect

> on the CNS. If you need benzos to sleep, you have a primary anxiety

> problem.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Helen and ,

Klonopine has been a Godsend for me too. I have been on it since about

1990, and I have never had to increase the dosage. I have tried a few

times to go off it, but what little brain I have left functions so much

better when I take Klonopine. And I have fewer episodes of rapid heart

beat. Addiction is the least of my worries. Best wishes. Vickie

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 16:09:00 -0400 " " <retractap@...>

writes:

> Hi Helen,

>

> This is really interesting. I have been on klonopin since 1991.

>

> I had my brain 'mapped' in Dr. Cheney's office in 1997, and it came

> out with

> no beta waves at all--none. Dr. Cheney and the other doctor in his

> office

> then were both very puzzled. The waited months before giving me the

>

> results. They mapped my brain while I was awake and answering

> complicated

> questions and adding long columns of figures, etc. and it came out

> with

> some alpha, some theta and some delta waves--but no beta at all.

> Since beta

> waves are generated when a person is awake and alert, they could not

>

> understand why I had none and yet I was well able to answer the

> questions

> and do the arithmetic. I still can't, and their only explanation

> was that I

> 'compensated very well.' Whatever that means.

>

> Like you, I have tapered off klonopin and then gone back onto it.

> Now I am

> just thankful that I have it. My local doctor told me (and so did

> Cheney

> when I was seeing him) that the klonopin had probably saved me some

> permanent brain injury. I do not feel like klonopin is doing me

> any harm,

> and I do feel like it is helping me (although, of course, I do

> realize how

> addictive it is. People with diabetes are addicted to insulin

> also.)

>

> Again, what works for some of us doesn't work for others, so I am

> not

> advising anyone to run out and ask for a prescription for klonopin.

> All I

> am saying is that it has been a Godsend to me.

>

>

> Re: Tryptophan & sleep

>

>

> Hi Honey:

>

> One of my best friends from the benzo world came off klonopin too

> fast in the first part of her taper, slowed down to a water taper,

> and then went to zero about a year ago. Her hair started coming out,

> and it continued to come out, the last time I heard from her this

> last spring she had lost a third of her formerly thick hair.

>

> She has CFIDS also, one of the few in the benzo world, and moved to

> Chicago last fall to get acupuncture treatments. They seemed to help

> for a while, but in the last few months she's gotten too ill to even

> get on the computer. It's very upsetting. There have been other

> individuals reporting the same thing with hair loss, but no one has

> any idea why this happens.

>

> I went on klonopin for insomnia both times I took it and at first it

> worked well for me, then as time went on it didn't and I was just

> addicted to it. The first time I went off I took 5HTP for

> depression,

> was still very depressed and thought it wasn't working, but I was

> able to sleep so now I realize it helped.

>

> The second time I started on L-tryptophan at the beginning of my

> taper and have remained on it. My sleep patterns have reverted to

> what has been natural for me my entire life, it takes me at least an

> hour to fall asleep. Without the tryptophan I'd probably lie there

> awake for five hours.

>

> I didn't have pre-existing anxiety but since I've been on klonopin

> and come off twice, I have developed constant anxiety, that I

> perceive as free-floating fear in search of any perceived cause to

> attach it to, if that makes any sense. I haven't found any effective

> way to deal with that yet, although I've tried various things.

>

> The latest is neurobiofeedback, after I found someone here who does

> that. Got my brain mapped and took a quiz there, and my brain shows

> areas of asymmetry and too much high beta, I forget what all he

> said.

> This one area in the right central region is generally different in

> color from the rest, and involved in the asymmetry. I've never had a

> brain scan although Cheney's office has started writing the code for

> brain disease on my insurance forms, not that my insurance company

> is

> the least bit impressed.

>

> So I had one brief session of biofeedback last week and I did

> surprisingly well at moving blood to my frontal lobes. However when

> I

> tried to focus just on the right side, I couldn't do it, although I

> could focus on the left. So I might indeed have this dysfunctional

> right area of the brain.

>

> It's interesting because I get migraines and if I don't interrupt

> them with drugs, they proceed from my neck to an area behind my

> right

> eye, which feels like it's going to explode.

>

> At any rate, the biofeedback guy thinks he can help me retrain my

> brain waves to a more symmetric pattern and get out of high beta

> overdrive, which he perceives as my own distress about my thoughts.

> Which sums up what klonopin did to me pretty well. So I've got a bit

> of hope there, have two appts next week.

>

> Helen

>

>

>

> > Hi Helen,

> >

> > I wasn't sure if you wrote this after my reply to Mel, because you

> > quoted the original mail, but this made me jump:

> >

> > > I have seen reports from several individuals about hair loss

> while on

> > > klonopin or during withdrawal but didn't experience this problem

> > > myself.

> >

> > As I said in my reply, I had significant hair loss from

> *something*

> > around the time I was taking klonopin, that suddenly stopped,

> again

> > some time after discontinuing it. I've been looking for a culprit

> > to avoid. It's very reassuring to hear someone report this,

> albeit

> > second-hand, as I've only seen tentative claims on random websites

> > before. It'll be a great relief to me if it *was* the klonopin:

> > it means I needn't fear the minerals as a cause. Very interesting

> if

> > this is something you've seen reported often, thanks.

> >

> > > L-tryptophan, on the other hand, as long as it isn't

> contaminated, is

> > > a rather benign substance.

> >

> > Sounds very positive - I had serious anxiety problems (addressed

> > currently as I said by valium, but not by klonopin) and appalling

> > sleep quality problems. Did it help both for you significantly?

> > More so than the benzos? Or do you prefer it even if not as

> > effective, because of your bad reaction to benzos?

> >

> > Honey

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

> with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

> treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

that is exactly my story, Joyce. I fact i though I had written it. I take

clonozopan and ambian at night. 1mg of clon. and 1 ambian. I cut them both

in half last night, and did manage to sleep. It stopped my restless leg,

and I am afraid of that coming .back. but I have heard the the restless leg

drug requip works very well. my son is on it. But what are the side

effects of that going to be???? I am going to try to get off all these

drugs, and get a base line of my condition. I am starting to worry about

maybe mold being a problem too where i live. I am in a mobile home that got

flooded two years ago with all kinds of crap from surrounding cattle fields

and whatever else around here.

klonopin

I find that it calms down my overexcited brain and allows me to sleep. Also

it actually helps my cognition. I have been reducing my dosage and I am down

to a little less than 1 mg at night. Is there something better to replace

it? I know I am addicted. It stopped my restless leg syndrome. I have been

on it for 18 years. joyce

_________________________________________________________________

You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i’m

Initiative now.

http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGLM

[Guest guest]

>

> I find that it calms down my overexcited brain and allows me to sleep. Also it

actually

helps my cognition. I have been reducing my dosage and I am down to a little

less than 1

mg at night. Is there something better to replace it? I know I am addicted. It

stopped my

restless leg syndrome. I have been on it for 18 years. joyce

Klonopin is really still the best choice for this kind of thing.

If you have a really really good reason to change the antiseizure/mood

stabilizing

medications may help, but they all have far worse side effect profiles.

Neurontin is

probably the most benign - and least effective. You could ask your doctor about

this if

you wanted to, but try to stick to things either he has experience prescribing

or you've

talked to a lot of people who take it - there is an awful lot of misinformation

about the

new drugs in this class being nicer than the old ones, and it is not true.

Did any doctor ever think to get an EEG on you?

> _________________________________________________________________

> You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i'm

Initiative now.

> http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGLM

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you want to get off, I have posted before that I believe that

rotating sleep meds like klonopin, Lunesta, antihistamines is the

best way so that you don't get addicted/dependent. I didn't

mention Ambien since it is partial benzo, I believe. I have a real

good doc who keeps telling me that " your brain gets used to a

certain chemical " and therefore becomes less effective, by which

I think he means the receptors get used to 'seeing' the same

chemical. That is what I would do unless everything else doesn't

work besides K.

Mike C

In , " andrewhallcutler "

<AndyCutler@...> wrote:

>

>

> >

> > I find that it calms down my overexcited brain and allows me to

sleep. Also it actually

> helps my cognition. I have been reducing my dosage and I am down to a

little less than 1

> mg at night. Is there something better to replace it? I know I am

addicted. It stopped my

> restless leg syndrome. I have been on it for 18 years. joyce

>

> Klonopin is really still the best choice for this kind of thing.

[Guest guest]

Joyce, a large percentage of people who take klonopin become physically

dependent on it, and if it is stopped abruptly (even for a day or two), they

have severe withdrawal symptoms. If you have not become physically dependent

(and a small percentage do not), you'll be just fine stopping abruptly.

I was prescribed klonopin and took it for more than 16 years. I didn't know any

better and when I became tolerant (taking the same dose did not bring about the

desired effects), and the drug was no longer working for me, I stopped it

abruptly. I suffered horribly--lots of different symptoms, the worst for me

were the headaches and the muscles aches and jerking, and terrible insomnia.

Most people say that their withdrawal symptoms are stronger versions of whatever

symptoms they first took the benzo to relieve.

If you are going to stop or lower the use of or change dosing of any benzo, you

should know exactly what you are doing. If you would like to know more about

this, please write to me privately at retractap at bellsouth dot net.

Re: klonopin

If you want to get off, I have posted before that I believe that

rotating sleep meds like klonopin, Lunesta, antihistamines is the

best way so that you don't get addicted/dependent. I didn't

mention Ambien since it is partial benzo, I believe. I have a real

good doc who keeps telling me that " your brain gets used to a

certain chemical " and therefore becomes less effective, by which

I think he means the receptors get used to 'seeing' the same

chemical. That is what I would do unless everything else doesn't

work besides K.

Mike C

In , " andrewhallcutler "

<AndyCutler@...> wrote:

>

>

> >

> > I find that it calms down my overexcited brain and allows me to

sleep. Also it actually

> helps my cognition. I have been reducing my dosage and I am down to a

little less than 1

> mg at night. Is there something better to replace it? I know I am

addicted. It stopped my

> restless leg syndrome. I have been on it for 18 years. joyce

>

> Klonopin is really still the best choice for this kind of thing.

[Guest guest]

Hi there,

Please refer to www.benzo.org.uk for up to date info on all benzos and on

tapering safely.

BW

Rosie

Joyce, a large percentage of people who take klonopin become physically

dependent on it, and if it is stopped abruptly (even for a day or two), they

have severe withdrawal symptoms. If you have not become physically dependent

(and a small percentage do not), you'll be just fine stopping abruptly.

I was prescribed klonopin and took it for more than 16 years. I didn't know

any better and when I became tolerant (taking the same dose did not bring

about the desired effects), and the drug was no longer working for me, I

stopped it abruptly. I suffered horribly--lots of different symptoms, the

worst for me were the headaches and the muscles aches and jerking, and

terrible insomnia. Most people say that their withdrawal symptoms are

stronger versions of whatever symptoms they first took the benzo to relieve.

If you are going to stop or lower the use of or change dosing of any benzo,

you should know exactly what you are doing. If you would like to know more

about this, please write to me privately at retractap at bellsouth dot net.

Re: klonopin

If you want to get off, I have posted before that I believe that

rotating sleep meds like klonopin, Lunesta, antihistamines is the

best way so that you don't get addicted/dependent. I didn't

mention Ambien since it is partial benzo, I believe. I have a real

good doc who keeps telling me that " your brain gets used to a

certain chemical " and therefore becomes less effective, by which

I think he means the receptors get used to 'seeing' the same

chemical. That is what I would do unless everything else doesn't

work besides K.

Mike C

In

<mailto:%40> , " andrewhallcutler "

<AndyCutler@...> wrote:

>

>

> >

> > I find that it calms down my overexcited brain and allows me to

sleep. Also it actually

> helps my cognition. I have been reducing my dosage and I am down to a

little less than 1

> mg at night. Is there something better to replace it? I know I am

addicted. It stopped my

> restless leg syndrome. I have been on it for 18 years. joyce

>

> Klonopin is really still the best choice for this kind of thing.

[Guest guest]

" " <retractap@...> wrote:

>

> Joyce, a large percentage of people who take klonopin become

> physically dependent on it, and if it is stopped abruptly

> (even for a day or two), they have severe withdrawal symptoms.

Klonopin has a high addictive potential and a very very long and

slow withdrawal period.

Rotating sleep meds does not necessarily get rid of this problem,

the rotation just becomes a more complex addiction.

Carol