klonopin

[Guest guest]

Boy Phil, I know what you mean. I had to go the ER 15 years ago

after taking a very small dose of valium and then trying to quit,

thought I was having a heart attack.

Here is my suggestion. Try reducing the K dosage a little, and then

use sedating antihistamines or something else that is not in the

K/valium family every other nite. Do not stop K cold turkey. Maybe

you should discuss

this with your doc. My point is, you need good sleep, so if you

can rotate several meds, you won't get hooked on any one and you

won't build up a tolerance. Have you tried Sonata? Good luck.

Mike

> I am concerned about using Klonopin for my sleep particularly as I

think I am hooked on the drug now. How can one wean oneself off of it

and what other meds or supplements are available for the same purpose?

> Phil

[Guest guest]

I have taken Klonopin for a while. If I run out and don't have it for a day

I sleep very poorly. But last time I took a bunch of melatonin and it

worked pretty well. I think it was 9 or 12 mg. Plus doxepin and valerian.

Cheney says that Klonopin is not addicting in the classic sense. This is

from http://virtualhometown.com/dfwcfids/medical/klonopin.html

MYTH NUMBER TWO: KLONOPIN IS ADDICTIVE. Dr. Cheney was adamant that Klonopin

is not addictive. In treating thousands of patients, Cheney has never seen a

patient become addicted to Klonopin. He reviewed the definition of

addiction, stating that it involves: (1) psychosocial disruption, (2)

accelerated use, (3) inappropriate use, and (4) drug seeking behavior.

Cheney said a case might be made that Klonopin is habituating. It's true

that it can not be stopped suddenly. You must taper off of it gradually.

However, Cheney was cautious about even calling it habituating. The process

of tapering off a drug is not the same thing as withdrawal, a term that

implies addiction.

Cheney said to keep in mind that Klonopin is given for a physiological

problem, excitatory neurotoxicity. It is prescribed to adjust the threshold

potential: to keep neurons from firing inappropriately and being destroyed.

He stressed that Klonopin should never be given unless you intend to raise

the threshold potential. He stated, " Problems arise when you begin to use

benzodiazapines for reasons other than threshold manipulation. " However,

CFIDS patients have a " threshold potential aberration " and need Klonopin (or

something similar) to avoid brain injury. Cheney has never seen a recovered

patient have difficulty coming off Klonopin. He stated, " When you no longer

need the drug, coming off it is very easy. "

On the other hand, trouble arises when someone who still has an injured

brain tries to come off Klonopin. It is like a thyroid patient stopping

their thyroid medication. Cheney warned, " All hell breaks loose " . However,

it is not because the drug is addicting, and it is not withdrawal. The

condition still exists, and the body lets you know it has a legitimate

physical need for the drug. Cheney stated, " When a CFIDS patient who is

still experiencing the underlying mechanisms of brain injury goes off

Klonopin, there is a burst of excess neural firing and cell death. ThatÌs

the havoc we hear about that is mistakenly called withdrawal. "

Thanks,

Doris

Klonopin

> I am concerned about using Klonopin for my sleep particularly as I think I

am hooked on the drug now. How can one wean oneself off of it and what other

meds or supplements are available for the same purpose?

> Phil

[Guest guest]

I have to admit that makes sense but I'm concerned that I can't sleep

without it.

Phil

> hi Phil and all -

> > if it helps you sleep and function, why wean yourself off it? If

it

> works, then your brain most likely really needs it - think of it as

a

> diabetic using insulin. Klonopin is *habituating* but not

*addictive* -

> 2 different things. For more info see See

> www.virtualhometown.com/dfwcfids in the Cheney section. There are a

> whole variety of meds and supplements that some people have found

> useful - for meds, try an archive search, for supps, check out the

> www.immunesupport.com website and/or their catalog.

>

> Judith G

[Guest guest]

---

I think I'm convinced and will just continue taking it.

Phil

> MYTH NUMBER TWO: KLONOPIN IS ADDICTIVE. Dr. Cheney was adamant that

Klonopin

> is not addictive. In treating thousands of patients, Cheney has

never seen a

> patient become addicted to Klonopin. He reviewed the definition of

> addiction, stating that it involves: (1) psychosocial disruption,

(2)

> accelerated use, (3) inappropriate use, and (4) drug seeking

behavior.

>

> Cheney said a case might be made that Klonopin is habituating. It's

true

> that it can not be stopped suddenly. You must taper off of it

gradually.

> However, Cheney was cautious about even calling it habituating. The

process

> of tapering off a drug is not the same thing as withdrawal, a term

that

> implies addiction.

>

> Cheney said to keep in mind that Klonopin is given for a

physiological

> problem, excitatory neurotoxicity. It is prescribed to adjust the

threshold

> potential: to keep neurons from firing inappropriately and being

destroyed.

> He stressed that Klonopin should never be given unless you intend

to raise

> the threshold potential. He stated, " Problems arise when you begin

to use

> benzodiazapines for reasons other than threshold manipulation. "

However,

> CFIDS patients have a " threshold potential aberration " and need

Klonopin (or

> something similar) to avoid brain injury. Cheney has never seen a

recovered

> patient have difficulty coming off Klonopin. He stated, " When you

no longer

> need the drug, coming off it is very easy. "

>

> On the other hand, trouble arises when someone who still has an

injured

> brain tries to come off Klonopin. It is like a thyroid patient

stopping

> their thyroid medication. Cheney warned, " All hell breaks loose " .

However,

> it is not because the drug is addicting, and it is not withdrawal.

The

> condition still exists, and the body lets you know it has a

legitimate

> physical need for the drug. Cheney stated, " When a CFIDS patient

who is

> still experiencing the underlying mechanisms of brain injury goes

off

> Klonopin, there is a burst of excess neural firing and cell death.

ThatÌs

> the havoc we hear about that is mistakenly called withdrawal. "

>

> Thanks,

> Doris

> Klonopin

>

>

> > I am concerned about using Klonopin for my sleep particularly as

I think I

> am hooked on the drug now. How can one wean oneself off of it and

what other

> meds or supplements are available for the same purpose?

> > Phil

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/15/02 10:30:41 AM Mountain Daylight Time,

philcome@... writes:

> I am concerned about using Klonopin for my sleep particularly as I think I

> am hooked on the drug now. How can one wean oneself off of it and what

other

> meds or supplements are available for the same purpose?

Phil,

I am real real happy with l-tryptophan.

I have been using it for years. I only need one cap (500mg) but I recently

read it can be used in much larger doses. It is perfectly safe, non

addicting, no side effects.

Adrienne

[Guest guest]

Just wanted to add my two cents on the Klonopin issue.

I started taking about 18 months ago. I take .5mg in

the morning, .5 mg with dinner, and .5 mg at bedtime.

Since I started, I no longer have nearly as much brain

fog or seizure-like episodes (not true seizures, just

sort of freezing at the sight of blinking lights), and

I can sleep through the night now for the first time

since I got sick. I think it is a wonderful drug for

those that it helps. I'm sure it's not for everybody,

but it has been a godsend for me.

FWIW - Jennie in California

=====

" I must not fear....I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and

through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.

Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.... "

- Herbert, in Dune

[Guest guest]

,

2-3mg of Doxepin, 100mg of Nuerontin, Sublingual Melatonin + time

release Melatonin, work very well for me for sleep.

I could not tolerate Klonopin for some reason, or GABA either.

This just goes to show, you can take hints from other PWC's, but

often you have to go through the laborious proccess of seeing if a

particular substance works for you, or not, own your own.

Zippy

---------------------------------------------------------------

> Hi

>

> Any one out there who is taking Klonopin for sleep - how much do

you take?

>

> Also are you taking it in conjunction with Doxepin

>

>

> Thanks

>

>

[Guest guest]

FOr sleep,I used to take 0.5 mg of klonopin with 100 mg Neurontin

and 1.5 mg melatonin. I did not add doxepin because I was feeling

extremely drowsy in the morning with doxepin.

Now I am coming off of klonopin as I dont want to get too addicted

to it. I am just taking neurontin, increased my melatonin to 3 mg

and revitalizing sleep formula(Teitalbaum's formulation- enzymatic

therapy product). But sleep is not as good as it was when taking

klonopin. Hopefully the withdrawal effects will disappear soon.

Thanks

Gayathri.

> Hi

>

> Any one out there who is taking Klonopin for sleep - how much do

you take?

>

> Also are you taking it in conjunction with Doxepin

>

>

> Thanks

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

I take 1mg klonopin and 50mg doxepin. I also take quite a bit of melatonin, and

valerian. The klonopin and doxepin seem to do great for keeping me asleep, but

I still need something to get to sleep. Used to use ambien and that worked

great, but can't get it now.

Thanks,

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From:

Any one out there who is taking Klonopin for sleep - how much do you take?

Also are you taking it in conjunction with Doxepin

[Guest guest]

Hi

Thanks Doris, Gayathri, Zippy for your replies about klonopin. I see that some

of you are taking neurontin aswell. I didn't realise this was for sleep - I

thought it was for pain. Does it help sleep???

Thanks

Re: Klonopin

,

2-3mg of Doxepin, 100mg of Nuerontin, Sublingual Melatonin + time

release Melatonin, work very well for me for sleep.

I could not tolerate Klonopin for some reason, or GABA either.

This just goes to show, you can take hints from other PWC's, but

often you have to go through the laborious proccess of seeing if a

particular substance works for you, or not, own your own.

Zippy

---------------------------------------------------------------

> Hi

>

> Any one out there who is taking Klonopin for sleep - how much do

you take?

>

> Also are you taking it in conjunction with Doxepin

>

>

> Thanks

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/11/03 7:00:31 AM, " Jill Lynch " <jill.lynch@...>

writes:

>

> I take Klonopin to help me fall asleep at night.  My problem is that I have

> thoughts that race through my head at night and make it difficult for me to

> relax and just fall asleep.  If I don't take Klonopin at night I may take me

> 2-3 hours to fall asleep.  When I take it, maybe 20-30 minutes to fall

> asleep.

>

> My question is that lately, it's not working.  It's taking me a couple of

> hours to fall asleep.  I've been taking 0.5 mg.  I just read that you can

> take 1.5mg a day for awhile and then gradually increase to 8mg a day - but

> this was for people who take it as an anticonvulgent. 

>

>

> I'm a little scared of Klonopin because back in 1999 I took three pills and

> drank a lot of alcohol.  The night ended with me nearing death and getting

> my stomach pumped.  I'm sure had I not drank any alcohol this wouldn't have

> happened.  But still I get nervous.

>

>

> Does anyone else take Klonopin for sleeping?  What dose do you take?

>

> Hey Jill,

>

First of all, are you taking Klonopin for insomnia brought on by Lexapro? or

for another condition?

Klonopin is a benzodiazepine, basically a tranquilizer in the same family as

Xanax and Valium. I'm curious who prescribed Klonopin for sleep, though --

it's an odd choice. Each member of the benzo family has it strengths and

weaknesses... Klonopin mainly does two things: prevents panic, and prevents

seizures.

Like all benzos, though, it causes drowsiness, etc.

The benzo of choice for insomnia is Restoril. I'm wondering why your doctor

gave you Klonopin instead.

Klonopin's starting dose is usually 0.5 mg t.i.d. or p.r.n.... Your body

eventually does become dependent on the drug, and you may notice you need more

to

achieve the same effect. I take Klonopin for panic, started at 0.5mg t.i.d.

and am now up to 2 mg t.i.d. (!)...

With Restoril, (which I took for insomnia related to Lexapro, before I got on

Klonopin), the normal starting dosage is 15mg qhs... but 15 did nothing for

me, so I found myself at 30 mg, the max dosage.

You might talk to your doctor about switching drugs is Klonopin isn't working

for your insomnia. It's not really a drug designed for that. Ambien, which

isn't a benzo but works similarly, is also a good choice.

All the best,

in Houston

[Guest guest]

I take Klonopin throughout the day for anxiety. I find that it doesn't work as

well since I'm on lexapro. That just might be me. Your mileage may vary.

On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 12:44:04AM -0700, Jill Lynch wrote:

> I take Klonopin to help me fall asleep at night. My problem is that I have

> thoughts that race through my head at night and make it difficult for me to

> relax and just fall asleep. If I don't take Klonopin at night I may take me

> 2-3 hours to fall asleep. When I take it, maybe 20-30 minutes to fall

> asleep.

>

>

>

> My question is that lately, it's not working. It's taking me a couple of

> hours to fall asleep. I've been taking 0.5 mg. I just read that you can

> take 1.5mg a day for awhile and then gradually increase to 8mg a day - but

> this was for people who take it as an anticonvulgent.

>

>

>

> I'm a little scared of Klonopin because back in 1999 I took three pills and

> drank a lot of alcohol. The night ended with me nearing death and getting

> my stomach pumped. I'm sure had I not drank any alcohol this wouldn't have

> happened. But still I get nervous.

>

>

>

> Does anyone else take Klonopin for sleeping? What dose do you take?

>

>

>

> Thanks,

>

> Jill

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

One of the big problems with klonopin, and benzos in general, is

that you tend to build up a tolerence level to them. Maybe you

should talk to your doctor about adjusting your dosage if you find

it to be less effective.

Mixing klonopin and alcohol is definitely a very, very bad idea.

For the record, I take klonopin to relieve anxiety and help me

sleep. I take .25mg (half of a half mg pill) before bedtime. I also

take 'as needed' but hardly ever other then bedtime. I'm also on

40mg of Lex a day.

-

> In a message dated 11/11/03 7:00:31 AM, " Jill Lynch "

<jill.lynch@c...>

> writes:

> >

> > I take Klonopin to help me fall asleep at night.  My problem is

that I have

> > thoughts that race through my head at night and make it

difficult for me to

> > relax and just fall asleep.  If I don't take Klonopin at night I

may take me

> > 2-3 hours to fall asleep.  When I take it, maybe 20-30 minutes

to fall

> > asleep.

> >

> > My question is that lately, it's not working.  It's taking me a

couple of

> > hours to fall asleep.  I've been taking 0.5 mg.  I just read

that you can

> > take 1.5mg a day for awhile and then gradually increase to 8mg a

day - but

> > this was for people who take it as an anticonvulgent. 

> >

> >

> > I'm a little scared of Klonopin because back in 1999 I took

three pills and

> > drank a lot of alcohol.  The night ended with me nearing death

and getting

> > my stomach pumped.  I'm sure had I not drank any alcohol this

wouldn't have

> > happened.  But still I get nervous.

> >

> >

> > Does anyone else take Klonopin for sleeping?  What dose do you

take?

> >

>

> > Hey Jill,

> >

> First of all, are you taking Klonopin for insomnia brought on by

Lexapro? or

> for another condition?

>

> Klonopin is a benzodiazepine, basically a tranquilizer in the same

family as

> Xanax and Valium. I'm curious who prescribed Klonopin for sleep,

though --

> it's an odd choice. Each member of the benzo family has it

strengths and

> weaknesses... Klonopin mainly does two things: prevents panic, and

prevents seizures.

> Like all benzos, though, it causes drowsiness, etc.

>

> The benzo of choice for insomnia is Restoril. I'm wondering why

your doctor

> gave you Klonopin instead.

>

> Klonopin's starting dose is usually 0.5 mg t.i.d. or p.r.n....

Your body

> eventually does become dependent on the drug, and you may notice

you need more to

> achieve the same effect. I take Klonopin for panic, started at

0.5mg t.i.d.

> and am now up to 2 mg t.i.d. (!)...

>

> With Restoril, (which I took for insomnia related to Lexapro,

before I got on

> Klonopin), the normal starting dosage is 15mg qhs... but 15 did

nothing for

> me, so I found myself at 30 mg, the max dosage.

>

> You might talk to your doctor about switching drugs is Klonopin

isn't working

> for your insomnia. It's not really a drug designed for that.

Ambien, which

> isn't a benzo but works similarly, is also a good choice.

>

> All the best,

> in Houston

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I had it prescribed and took it for a good while. It was given to me for high blood pressure, but I read on the sheet from the pharmacist that it was for seizures. Didn't have any trouble getting off it, though. Barb

[Guest guest]

Georgie:

Klonopin/Clonazepam is given for movement disorders

(something similar to seizures). It is also given to

relieve anxiety, a necessity for a lot of folks with

AICDs. And, as noted in another message, it is

addictive....but not troublesome, just have to be

weaned off it gradually. PatP

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

> > Friends: does any one take clonopin? I thought

> > I read something about it in one of the messages

> > I received. Why is it taken? Are there any side

> > effects to it? Thank you.

> > Georgie

> > (on behalf of my brother in law)

> >

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/8/04 6:09:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time,

SSRI medications writes:

> How can the brain be protected against excitatory neurotoxicity? Klonopin.

> This long acting benzodiazepine has been Cheney's most effective drug for

> CFIDS over the years. He believes that Klonopin and the supplement magnesium

may

> be two of the most important treatments for CFIDS patients because of their

> neuroprotective qualities.

How much did he get paid to say this??? And who paid him, the manufacturer

of Klonopin???? Sheesh.

" Blind Reason "

a novel of pharmaceutical intrigue

Think your antidepressant is safe? Think again. It's

Unsafe At Any Dose

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/8/04 6:09:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time,

SSRI medications writes:

> How can the brain be protected against excitatory neurotoxicity? Klonopin.

> This long acting benzodiazepine has been Cheney's most effective drug for

> CFIDS over the years. He believes that Klonopin and the supplement magnesium

may

> be two of the most important treatments for CFIDS patients because of their

> neuroprotective qualities.

How much did he get paid to say this??? And who paid him, the manufacturer

of Klonopin???? Sheesh.

" Blind Reason "

a novel of pharmaceutical intrigue

Think your antidepressant is safe? Think again. It's

Unsafe At Any Dose

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/8/04 6:09:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time,

SSRI medications writes:

> How can the brain be protected against excitatory neurotoxicity? Klonopin.

> This long acting benzodiazepine has been Cheney's most effective drug for

> CFIDS over the years. He believes that Klonopin and the supplement magnesium

may

> be two of the most important treatments for CFIDS patients because of their

> neuroprotective qualities.

How much did he get paid to say this??? And who paid him, the manufacturer

of Klonopin???? Sheesh.

" Blind Reason "

a novel of pharmaceutical intrigue

Think your antidepressant is safe? Think again. It's

Unsafe At Any Dose

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/8/04 6:09:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time,

SSRI medications writes:

> How can the brain be protected against excitatory neurotoxicity? Klonopin.

> This long acting benzodiazepine has been Cheney's most effective drug for

> CFIDS over the years. He believes that Klonopin and the supplement magnesium

may

> be two of the most important treatments for CFIDS patients because of their

> neuroprotective qualities.

How much did he get paid to say this??? And who paid him, the manufacturer

of Klonopin???? Sheesh.

" Blind Reason "

a novel of pharmaceutical intrigue

Think your antidepressant is safe? Think again. It's

Unsafe At Any Dose

[Guest guest]

Well, many of us take it. You probably know that Cheney believes it helps

protect the brain. I realize that some people think the addiction is not worth

it. But my personal feeling is that I can worry about addiction once I am well

enough to care. I do make sure I don't increase my dose; I have been on the

same amount for years. Instead I add other things like melatonin, 5-HTP, and

Valerian to sleep. I also know that the head of the mycoplasma group constantly

says she thinks you can't get rid of mycoplasma if you take klonopin, which

would indicate some type of immune supression. But nobody has ever come up with

a study for me or even a theory or some data to support that. Obviously it is

personal and I am not a doctor, but I go by whether it is helping me now.

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: joyce kaye

I take 1 3/4 pills per night. It helps with my sleep and concentration. I

couldn't live without it. Could someone tell me something good about it so I

don't have to go to Betty Ford clinic? I have tried just 1 mg and I end up not

sleeping well and very anxious. joyce kaye

[Guest guest]

I think the gaba receptor drugs are very useful in chronic lyme,

CFIDS, fibromyalgia. I do think they are neuroprotective, just from

personal experience. Also, without sleep there is no chance of

healing. OTOH, taking as little as you actually need is important.

Doctors overprescribe them.

[Guest guest]

Joyce-

When somebody says that K or valium cause 'brain shrinkage' I think

you have to question the source-not the person but where the info

is coming from. Dr. Cheney recommends K, and since I have never

heard of " brain shrinkage " , I think I will stick w/ Cheney on this

one. However, K, valium, ativan are all addictive, and you just don't

want to stop cold turkey. Personally, I take .5 mg. 3-4 times per

week and have no desire to take it during the day or anytime other

than when I can't fall asleep. The consequenses of not sleeping can

be much worse than the mild withdrawal effects that will occur if/when

one decides to quit K.

Mike C.

> I take 1 3/4 pills per night. It helps with my sleep and

concentration. I couldn't live without it. Could someone tell me

something good about it so I don't have to go to Betty Ford clinic? I

have tried just 1 mg and I end up not sleeping well and very anxious.

joyce kaye

[Guest guest]

Hi Helen,

Twelve months ago I became depressed for the first time. All the

antidepressants I was given reacted badly and I was put on clonazepam

(klonopin) for 4 weeks and later on diazepam. Both were a very bad idea

and reduced me to suicidal. I got myself off the diazepam which had

taken over from the clonazepam using Ashtons protocol (if you

put her name in a search engine it should come up).

Interestingly she says that 0.5mg of clonazepam is equivalent to 10 mg

of diazepam, which is an awful lot. She suggests switching from any

benzo to it's equivalent dose of diazepam because the titration of the

latter is smaller and the half life longer, so withdrawal is smoother.

I can remember reading a bit about Stevie Nicks saying it was very much

easier to get off cocaine than klonopin, those benzos are horrid. Mind

you you really notice tbe difference for the better once they are out of

your system, so it's very much worth the withdrawal.

Rosie

Subject: klonopin

I was put on klonopin for insomnia. They say it's not addictive and

it's not in the sense you don't crave it, but it creates dependency

nonetheless. It can also cause depression which hit me hard and

getting off it was terrible. I learned a water titration method which

I share with anyone interested, it allows you to make very small cuts

by crushing your pill and putting it in suspension in water.

Helen

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with

each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

While I don't disagree that it is hard to get off klonopin, I have heard from

someone who is having a hard time and has researched this a lot, that it is much

easier for some people, and more difficult for others. Also, I have taken it

for 6 or 7 years now and have never been the least bit depressed. So it is not

an absolute.

Doris

[Guest guest]

Hi. My name is and mainly I'm a lurker on the site.

But what you had to say about klonopin caught my eye. Currently I am on 1.5 to

2 mg. for insomnia, and hate it. I feel physically as well as psychologically

addicted.

Many years ago, I went on it for sleep problems and I remember the withdrawal

as being so totally terrible, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I'd be glad

for any suggestions you might have so I can banish from my life forever this

very addictive drug.

Thank you.

nancybee228@...

elen9jora <helen9jora@...> wrote:

I was put on klonopin for insomnia. They say it's not addictive and

it's not in the sense you don't crave it, but it creates dependency

nonetheless. It can also cause depression which hit me hard and

getting off it was terrible. I learned a water titration method which

I share with anyone interested, it allows you to make very small cuts

by crushing your pill and putting it in suspension in water.

Helen

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.