Re: thinking of quitting TRT

[Guest guest]

>

> i've read in so many alternative newsletters like Dr

,

> Alternatives and Dr Bruce West's Health Alert and others and they

say

> if your basel temp is below 97.6 (some say 97.8 or 97.4) that it

> indicates hypothyroidism.mine is 97-97.2 alwayscoldhands and feet

in

> the winter.

>

> I remember prior to doing TRT I used iodine with no ill effect.

But,

> yeah, I could stop it. I'm thinking of stopping everything and

> starting over.

>

> thom

>

It might turn out to be your best bet in the long run. Trying to

diagnose a single cause is easier, than if you may have a case where

a couple of things might conflict with each other where, alone, they

wouldn't. Thats quite a bit rougher to figure out. Can you remember

any time when you didn't have this reaction, if you could pin that

down. I've often said to a Dr something like, this med gives me a

headache. He'll say how do you know it does? Because when I stop it

the headache goes away, and when I start it up again it comes back.

Sounds like a real life variation on that old joke, but its ususally

enough proof for the Dr. The harder ones to prove are the meds that

have known side effects to start with but the system is supposed to

build up tolerance after a couple of days or a week (but never do.)

Rich

[Guest guest]

the number is 391. i don't know the range.

> > > > > For the past year I've had a red face and chest all

> > > the

> > > > time.

> > > > > Different times of the day I get a hot flush and it gets

> REALLY

> > > > red.

> > > > > Lasts for hours. It's worse in the summer heat and when I

> > > > > exercise.People always commenting. I thought the T/E2 was

out

> > of

> > > > > whack but it's not. Then someone mentioned high red blood

> cell

> > > > count

> > > > > but that's ok too. I'm at a loss. Seriously thinking of

> > quitting

> > > > TRT.

> > > > > Really, I'd prefer no libido (which isn't much as it is now

> > > anyway)

> > > > > to this continual bright red face, chest,back, even arms.

> Feels

> > > > like

> > > > > I'm burning up. I've always like hot weather but now can't

> take

> > > it.

> > > > > Even now in the cold of winter I look like a tomato.

> > > > >

> > > > > recent tests

> > > > >

> > > > > total T 563 (240-950) It's been to 800 with no change in

> > flushing

> > > > > free T 18.9 (10-55)

> > > > > E2 11 (0-76)

> > > > > HCT 45.9 (40-54) red blood cell count

> > > > >

> > > > > thyroid numbers look ok

> > > > > TSH 1.6 (.3-5)

> > > > > Free T3 391 range?

> > > > > Free T4 1.3 (.7-1.9)

> > > > >

> > > > > Although my basel temp taken in the morning under armpit is

> > 97.0

> > > > > which according to all the alternative doctors would

indicate

> > > > > hypothyroidism. I've been taking an iodine product called

> iosol

> > > for

> > > > a

> > > > > few months with no change.

> > > > >

> > > > > Any ideas? I can't see going on like this even though

quiting

> > > TRT

> > > > has

> > > > > long term bad consequences for heart and bone health.

> > > > >

> > > > > thanks

> > > > >

> > > > > thom

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > > Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

> >

> > i've read in so many alternative newsletters like Dr

> ,

> > Alternatives and Dr Bruce West's Health Alert and others and they

> say

> > if your basel temp is below 97.6 (some say 97.8 or 97.4) that it

> > indicates hypothyroidism.mine is 97-97.2 alwayscoldhands and

feet

> in

> > the winter.

> >

> > I remember prior to doing TRT I used iodine with no ill effect.

> But,

> > yeah, I could stop it. I'm thinking of stopping everything and

> > starting over.

> >

> > thom

> >

>

>

> It might turn out to be your best bet in the long run. Trying to

> diagnose a single cause is easier, than if you may have a case

where

> a couple of things might conflict with each other where, alone,

they

> wouldn't. Thats quite a bit rougher to figure out. Can you remember

> any time when you didn't have this reaction, if you could pin that

> down. I've often said to a Dr something like, this med gives me a

> headache. He'll say how do you know it does? Because when I stop it

> the headache goes away, and when I start it up again it comes back.

> Sounds like a real life variation on that old joke, but its

ususally

> enough proof for the Dr. The harder ones to prove are the meds that

> have known side effects to start with but the system is supposed to

> build up tolerance after a couple of days or a week (but never do.)

> Rich

>

yes, i remember it started last winter. after snow shovelling the

driveway my face would be bright red. not a normal pink one after

exertion like it should be. and it's continued all year. in the prior

year i was ok

[Guest guest]

> yes, i remember it started last winter. after snow shovelling the

> driveway my face would be bright red. not a normal pink one after

> exertion like it should be. and it's continued all year. in the

prior

> year i was ok

>

Hmm...sounds almost like cea. In

http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/rosacea/rosacea.htm

they talk about it but it sounds like its mostly confined to the

face. Yours sounds a lot more spread out.

In their " What causes cea " section, they say:

" Although the following factors have not been well-researched, some

people claim that one or more of them have aggravated their rosacea:

heat (including hot baths), strenuous exercise, sunlight, wind, very

cold temperatures, hot or spicy foods and drinks, alcohol

consumption, menopause, emotional stress, and long-term use of

topical steroids on the face. "

They also mention an irritation to the eyes a lot. Have your eyes

been bothering you?

All of this could be (and probably is) a wild guess. I still wonder

if there's something in that topical cream/testosterone thats giving

you some skin reaction which was accelerated by building up a hot

sweat shovelling snow.

Rich

[Guest guest]

Would TRT be considered " long-term use of

> topical steroids " ?

No problems with eyes, no pimples or postules.

I'll call the compounding pharmacy and ask what's in it.

thom

>

>

> > yes, i remember it started last winter. after snow shovelling the

> > driveway my face would be bright red. not a normal pink one after

> > exertion like it should be. and it's continued all year. in the

> prior

> > year i was ok

> >

>

> Hmm...sounds almost like cea. In

>

> http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/rosacea/rosacea.htm

>

> they talk about it but it sounds like its mostly confined to the

> face. Yours sounds a lot more spread out.

>

> In their " What causes cea " section, they say:

>

> " Although the following factors have not been well-researched, some

> people claim that one or more of them have aggravated their

rosacea:

> heat (including hot baths), strenuous exercise, sunlight, wind,

very

> cold temperatures, hot or spicy foods and drinks, alcohol

> consumption, menopause, emotional stress, and long-term use of

> topical steroids on the face. "

>

> They also mention an irritation to the eyes a lot. Have your eyes

> been bothering you?

> All of this could be (and probably is) a wild guess. I still wonder

> if there's something in that topical cream/testosterone thats

giving

> you some skin reaction which was accelerated by building up a hot

> sweat shovelling snow.

> Rich

>

[Guest guest]

Your best bet is to go to this site and read it.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

Phil

thombow <thombow@...> wrote:

the number is 391. i don't know the range.

> > > > > For the past year I've had a red face and chest all

> > > the

> > > > time.

> > > > > Different times of the day I get a hot flush and it gets

> REALLY

> > > > red.

> > > > > Lasts for hours. It's worse in the summer heat and when I

> > > > > exercise.People always commenting. I thought the T/E2 was

out

> > of

> > > > > whack but it's not. Then someone mentioned high red blood

> cell

> > > > count

> > > > > but that's ok too. I'm at a loss. Seriously thinking of

> > quitting

> > > > TRT.

> > > > > Really, I'd prefer no libido (which isn't much as it is now

> > > anyway)

> > > > > to this continual bright red face, chest,back, even arms.

> Feels

> > > > like

> > > > > I'm burning up. I've always like hot weather but now can't

> take

> > > it.

> > > > > Even now in the cold of winter I look like a tomato.

> > > > >

> > > > > recent tests

> > > > >

> > > > > total T 563 (240-950) It's been to 800 with no change in

> > flushing

> > > > > free T 18.9 (10-55)

> > > > > E2 11 (0-76)

> > > > > HCT 45.9 (40-54) red blood cell count

> > > > >

> > > > > thyroid numbers look ok

> > > > > TSH 1.6 (.3-5)

> > > > > Free T3 391 range?

> > > > > Free T4 1.3 (.7-1.9)

> > > > >

> > > > > Although my basel temp taken in the morning under armpit is

> > 97.0

> > > > > which according to all the alternative doctors would

indicate

> > > > > hypothyroidism. I've been taking an iodine product called

> iosol

> > > for

> > > > a

> > > > > few months with no change.

> > > > >

> > > > > Any ideas? I can't see going on like this even though

quiting

> > > TRT

> > > > has

> > > > > long term bad consequences for heart and bone health.

> > > > >

> > > > > thanks

> > > > >

> > > > > thom

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > > Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 04:13:50 -0000, you wrote:

>yes, i remember it started last winter. after snow shovelling the

>driveway my face would be bright red. not a normal pink one after

>exertion like it should be. and it's continued all year. in the prior

>year i was ok

I'm surprised you find this inconvenience enough of a problem to want

to go back to low T levels and the mental fog, energy, concentration

and libido issues that would bring. Not to mention the possibility for

osteoporosis, etc.

________________

" You never need an argument against the use of violence, you need an

argument for it. " Noam Chomsky

[Guest guest]

> I'm surprised you find this inconvenience enough of a problem to

want

> to go back to low T levels and the mental fog, energy,

concentration

> and libido issues that would bring. Not to mention the possibility

for

> osteoporosis, etc.

I guess you'd have to walk in my shoes a week and see for yourself.

I'm burning up. Looks like I have a bright red sunburn and it's

winter here in the northeast. This year long " inconvenience " shows no

signs of ending. The fact that I've put up with it for a year already

shows I don't take quitting lightly.

Never had mental fog, low energy or concentration problems. Just low

libido.

I'm well aware of long term issues of low T. That's why I'm trying to

solve it.

If you got any ideas I'm listening.

[Guest guest]

My guess is the " use of topical steroids on the face " is more of the

hydrocortisone type cream variety, although it might be similar in

action to T cream. The leaflet with my tube of HC cream lists quite a

mix of solvents, with the usual somewhat inane warning that if it

causes irritation, discontinue use. My T cream is 5% T in Cetaphil -

the description of which sounds like some sort of moisturizing cream.

It might be worth it to ask the pharmacist if only to see how likely

it is getting a reaction to the cream base he's using.

I used to work with a guy who had cea. His face would blush a

bright red for no apparent reason; cold temps, exertion, etc. I think

he had it for many years, and for the record he was no where near

testosterone cream.

Rich

> >

> >

> > > yes, i remember it started last winter. after snow shovelling

the

> > > driveway my face would be bright red. not a normal pink one

after

> > > exertion like it should be. and it's continued all year. in the

> > prior

> > > year i was ok

> > >

> >

> > Hmm...sounds almost like cea. In

> >

> > http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/rosacea/rosacea.htm

> >

> > they talk about it but it sounds like its mostly confined to the

> > face. Yours sounds a lot more spread out.

> >

> > In their " What causes cea " section, they say:

> >

> > " Although the following factors have not been well-researched,

some

> > people claim that one or more of them have aggravated their

> rosacea:

> > heat (including hot baths), strenuous exercise, sunlight, wind,

> very

> > cold temperatures, hot or spicy foods and drinks, alcohol

> > consumption, menopause, emotional stress, and long-term use of

> > topical steroids on the face. "

> >

> > They also mention an irritation to the eyes a lot. Have your eyes

> > been bothering you?

> > All of this could be (and probably is) a wild guess. I still

wonder

> > if there's something in that topical cream/testosterone thats

> giving

> > you some skin reaction which was accelerated by building up a hot

> > sweat shovelling snow.

> > Rich

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I get the same thing from time to time, it was much worse before I started

the T treatments but every now and then it pops back up, interesting enough

I had a bad case of it this Monday for no apparent reason other than stress

and lack of sleep Sunday night (I did stop my HCG that week!!). Monday I

was feeling really good for most of the day then early in the evening I

could feel my self starting to get flushed around my face, my neck and even

my arms, almost like a sunburn my wife was with me and commented about how

red my face was and asked if I was feeling ok, I did feel kind of foggy but

could feel almost like a burning feeling coming over me, it lasted about

three hours then went away just as fast as it came.

I'm also hypothyroid/hypopituitary and have found this occurs much more when

my T4/TSH levels are bad and I need an adjustment on those meds. I have also

found that it happens when I don't get a good night sleep and then have a

stressful day.

I don't know what the exact trigger is for it but it is just like you

described, I found it much worse before I was diagnosed and treated for

hypothyroidism so I'm certain that had allot to do with it, I'm also

thinking it has to do with exhaustion, maybe something regarding Adrenal

fatigue. I did stop my HCG that week because my doctor had me on Ovidrel at

a much higher dose than I needed so I'm clearing out my system before my

next blood test and switch to another HCG medication next week. Maybe this

put my T levels really low, I'm secondary hypogonad and have been on the

Ovidrel since I started my T treatments so I don't know how much it has been

pushing up my numbers so I could have been low on T.

I have included some information on vasomotor flush I found.

http://www.internationalrosaceafoundation.org/symptoms.php4

*Adrenaline flushing* - This kind of vascular dilation is caused by an

adrenaline rush. This type of flushing is the same as systemic flushing, but

it is hormone released. Stress is the body's reaction to a perceived threat.

Adrenaline and hormones are released, and the nervous system is activated,

sharpening our senses, but simultaneously our pulse rises, our muscles tense

and our immune system begins to shut down.

Adrenaline activity can also cause acne in both " men and women " as a

reaction to mental stress or physical stress. In women, testosterone is

produced by the ovaries with the other half of testosterone in women being

produced by the adrenal glands. Obviously, estrogen smoothes out the

testosterone produced by the ovaries, but when the estrogen level drops

several days before the menstrual periods, sometimes resulting acne occurs

especially when the adrenal glands over produce due to stress or fatigue.

The adrenal glands can be stressed continually in both men and women

resulting in too much testosterone with the resulting over stimulation of

the sebaceous glands. Similarly, in the male an over abundance of testicular

testosterone especially with overly stimulated adrenal glands causes the

overly stimulated sebaceous glands. Quite often more stress is placed on the

adult after puberty resulting in over active sebaceous glands. While we can

not produce more estrogen to level out the testosterone, we can drink much

more water which will help relieve stress and assist both acne and rosacea.

Getting enough sleep and finding ways to relax will help relieve stress and

reduce the adrenaline reaction that follows.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/331/6/347

Low-dose megestrol acetate as a treatment for hot flashes in women with

breast cancer and in men who had undergone androgen-deprivation therapy for

prostate cancer.

http://www.clinicaladvances.com/hemonc/2006/0906/0906_basaria.pdf

*Hot Flashes*

Although not life-threatening, hot flashes in men receiving ADT can

significantly affect quality of life. Hot flashes, which are a manifestation

of vasomotor instability, are generally described as a sudden perception of

heat located within the upper body and can be accompanied by a change in

skin color to pink or red, a feeling of warmth in the arms and soles, or

sudden sweating (which may be accompanied by chills), lasting for seconds to

hours.43 Hot flashes can be mild or severe, the latter can be

inca­pacitating and could result in the inability to work or function

normally. Some men also experience psychologic consequences of hot flashes

including anxiety, agitation, and impaired cognition.

The exact pathophysiology of these hot flashes remains elusive. However, it

is believed that the main etiology of these symptoms in men is the same as

in postmenopausal women (ie, deficiency of estrogen). Indeed, estrogen is

well-known to exert direct, nongenomic effects on the blood vessels.44 Some

have speculated that the decline in estradiol results in changes in the

hypothalamic " thermo­regulatory zone, " which triggers the heat-loss

mechanism, resulting in a hot flash.45 The phenomenon of hot flashes in men

is not limited to subjects undergoing ADT. Even men who suffer from mild

hypogonadism (of any etiol­ogy) also experience hot flashes. One example is

elderly

There is much more to this article so read on…

[Guest guest]

Hi I have the same problem as you been on TRT for over 23 yrs. but was

always told I was Primary. Last yr. tried HCG and my levels doubled so now

after much testing I am told I am Hypopituitary and just started treating my low

cortisol, DHEA, Thyriod along with T.

I am on Armour and Isocort switching to HC. For as long as I can remember

every winter I get dam sick with Flue, Colds, Sines Infections and Bronchitis.

Last yr. I had Bronchitis all dam winter and don't feel I ever came back from

it. Doing better now that I am treating low Cortisol and Thyroid but just

started. I am hoping this winter will be much better.

What is your treatment for all this and what have your found you need that the

Pit. is not sending.

What kind of Dr. do you see.

Phil

Osborne <ozzmed@...> wrote:

I get the same thing from time to time, it was much worse before I started

the T treatments but every now and then it pops back up, interesting enough

I had a bad case of it this Monday for no apparent reason other than stress

and lack of sleep Sunday night (I did stop my HCG that week!!). Monday I

was feeling really good for most of the day then early in the evening I

could feel my self starting to get flushed around my face, my neck and even

my arms, almost like a sunburn my wife was with me and commented about how

red my face was and asked if I was feeling ok, I did feel kind of foggy but

could feel almost like a burning feeling coming over me, it lasted about

three hours then went away just as fast as it came.

I'm also hypothyroid/hypopituitary and have found this occurs much more when

my T4/TSH levels are bad and I need an adjustment on those meds. I have also

found that it happens when I don't get a good night sleep and then have a

stressful day.

I don't know what the exact trigger is for it but it is just like you

described, I found it much worse before I was diagnosed and treated for

hypothyroidism so I'm certain that had allot to do with it, I'm also

thinking it has to do with exhaustion, maybe something regarding Adrenal

fatigue. I did stop my HCG that week because my doctor had me on Ovidrel at

a much higher dose than I needed so I'm clearing out my system before my

next blood test and switch to another HCG medication next week. Maybe this

put my T levels really low, I'm secondary hypogonad and have been on the

Ovidrel since I started my T treatments so I don't know how much it has been

pushing up my numbers so I could have been low on T.

I have included some information on vasomotor flush I found.

http://www.internationalrosaceafoundation.org/symptoms.php4

*Adrenaline flushing* - This kind of vascular dilation is caused by an

adrenaline rush. This type of flushing is the same as systemic flushing, but

it is hormone released. Stress is the body's reaction to a perceived threat.

Adrenaline and hormones are released, and the nervous system is activated,

sharpening our senses, but simultaneously our pulse rises, our muscles tense

and our immune system begins to shut down.

Adrenaline activity can also cause acne in both " men and women " as a

reaction to mental stress or physical stress. In women, testosterone is

produced by the ovaries with the other half of testosterone in women being

produced by the adrenal glands. Obviously, estrogen smoothes out the

testosterone produced by the ovaries, but when the estrogen level drops

several days before the menstrual periods, sometimes resulting acne occurs

especially when the adrenal glands over produce due to stress or fatigue.

The adrenal glands can be stressed continually in both men and women

resulting in too much testosterone with the resulting over stimulation of

the sebaceous glands. Similarly, in the male an over abundance of testicular

testosterone especially with overly stimulated adrenal glands causes the

overly stimulated sebaceous glands. Quite often more stress is placed on the

adult after puberty resulting in over active sebaceous glands. While we can

not produce more estrogen to level out the testosterone, we can drink much

more water which will help relieve stress and assist both acne and rosacea.

Getting enough sleep and finding ways to relax will help relieve stress and

reduce the adrenaline reaction that follows.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/331/6/347

Low-dose megestrol acetate as a treatment for hot flashes in women with

breast cancer and in men who had undergone androgen-deprivation therapy for

prostate cancer.

http://www.clinicaladvances.com/hemonc/2006/0906/0906_basaria.pdf

*Hot Flashes*

Although not life-threatening, hot flashes in men receiving ADT can

significantly affect quality of life. Hot flashes, which are a manifestation

of vasomotor instability, are generally described as a sudden perception of

heat located within the upper body and can be accompanied by a change in

skin color to pink or red, a feeling of warmth in the arms and soles, or

sudden sweating (which may be accompanied by chills), lasting for seconds to

hours.43 Hot flashes can be mild or severe, the latter can be

inca & shy;pacitating and could result in the inability to work or function

normally. Some men also experience psychologic consequences of hot flashes

including anxiety, agitation, and impaired cognition.

The exact pathophysiology of these hot flashes remains elusive. However, it

is believed that the main etiology of these symptoms in men is the same as

in postmenopausal women (ie, deficiency of estrogen). Indeed, estrogen is

well-known to exert direct, nongenomic effects on the blood vessels.44 Some

have speculated that the decline in estradiol results in changes in the

hypothalamic " thermo & shy;regulatory zone, " which triggers the heat-loss

mechanism, resulting in a hot flash.45 The phenomenon of hot flashes in men

is not limited to subjects undergoing ADT. Even men who suffer from mild

hypogonadism (of any etiol & shy;ogy) also experience hot flashes. One example is

elderly

There is much more to this article so read on…

[Guest guest]

Hey Philip,

I'm fairly new to all of this and after being sick for around ten years and

being told it was all in my head my wife and I decided to try and find out

why we where having problems having children so my GP ran some blood work

and my T levels where 145 (241-827) around four months ago and this got

everything going.

He recommended me to go to an Urologist but being we where looking to try to

get pregnant I decided to see an Endo, we went to a reproductive Endo and a

urologist to get other opinions the reproductive Endo wanted me to go on

clomed and urologist wouldn't treat me with HCG and felt that a range of

(400) would be good, so I'm sticking with my first Endo I went to.

It has been a battle; I have finally convinced her that not all the

information on the WEB is bad especially after I informed her that she was

over dosing me on HCG, she put me on Ovidrel that was 250ug pre-loaded

syringes, after looking into it and using it for a couple months I found out

that is equal to 6500IU of HCG so I'm in the process of switching to Novarel

and should be receiving it in the mail today. So she is finally accepting

that I should be a part of the process.

I'm taking 5gm of Androgel each day I did try Androderm but that didn't work

out, they kept falling off and left me with red blotches where I used it.

I'm going to be taking 250iu of Novarel.

I also take Levoxyl Tabs 175MCG for the Hypothyroid.

My last numbers:

TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 722 (241-827 ng/dl)

FREE TESTOSTERONE 158.9 (50-210pg/ml)

ESTRADIOL 48 (10-50pg/ml)

I have an appointment with my doctor in a few weeks and I'm going to discuss

with her the high E2 levels and what we are going to do about that next.

this I had an MRI of the PIT (Asymmetry of the Pituitary Gland on the Left,

Cannot Exclude Adenoma) this was inconclusive. My GH is low but she won't do

anything with that until I get another MRI done in six months so I need to

wait until I get that treated. All my other hormone levels where good.

How did they discover you had low cortisol/DHEA, I had an AM cortisol test

done 18.9 (5-21 ug/dl) but I still seem to be falling on my but towards the

end of the day.

After looking at all the complexities to all of this and being told from two

reproductive specialist that the only thing they will do is IVU not to

mention the expense of all of that my wife and I have decided to try to

adopt.

[Guest guest]

compounding pharmacy said it was Isopropyl alcohol mixed with the

testosterone. used it for over a year without a problem. i'd think a

bad reaction would show up sooner.

I hope it's not that cea.

thom

> > >

> > >

> > > > yes, i remember it started last winter. after snow shovelling

> the

> > > > driveway my face would be bright red. not a normal pink one

> after

> > > > exertion like it should be. and it's continued all year. in

the

> > > prior

> > > > year i was ok

> > > >

> > >

> > > Hmm...sounds almost like cea. In

> > >

> > > http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/rosacea/rosacea.htm

> > >

> > > they talk about it but it sounds like its mostly confined to

the

> > > face. Yours sounds a lot more spread out.

> > >

> > > In their " What causes cea " section, they say:

> > >

> > > " Although the following factors have not been well-researched,

> some

> > > people claim that one or more of them have aggravated their

> > rosacea:

> > > heat (including hot baths), strenuous exercise, sunlight, wind,

> > very

> > > cold temperatures, hot or spicy foods and drinks, alcohol

> > > consumption, menopause, emotional stress, and long-term use of

> > > topical steroids on the face. "

> > >

> > > They also mention an irritation to the eyes a lot. Have your

eyes

> > > been bothering you?

> > > All of this could be (and probably is) a wild guess. I still

> wonder

> > > if there's something in that topical cream/testosterone thats

> > giving

> > > you some skin reaction which was accelerated by building up a

hot

> > > sweat shovelling snow.

> > > Rich

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

For me I never had any flushing problems prior to starting TRT. And

was fine for over a year on TRT.

Thanks for the other info, will read it over.

thom

-- In , " Osborne " <ozzmed@...>

wrote:

>

> I get the same thing from time to time, it was much worse before I

started

> the T treatments but every now and then it pops back up,

interesting enough

> I had a bad case of it this Monday for no apparent reason other

than stress

> and lack of sleep Sunday night (I did stop my HCG that week!!).

Monday I

> was feeling really good for most of the day then early in the

evening I

> could feel my self starting to get flushed around my face, my neck

and even

> my arms, almost like a sunburn my wife was with me and commented

about how

> red my face was and asked if I was feeling ok, I did feel kind of

foggy but

> could feel almost like a burning feeling coming over me, it lasted

about

> three hours then went away just as fast as it came.

>

> I'm also hypothyroid/hypopituitary and have found this occurs much

more when

> my T4/TSH levels are bad and I need an adjustment on those meds. I

have also

> found that it happens when I don't get a good night sleep and then

have a

> stressful day.

>

> I don't know what the exact trigger is for it but it is just like

you

> described, I found it much worse before I was diagnosed and treated

for

> hypothyroidism so I'm certain that had allot to do with it, I'm also

> thinking it has to do with exhaustion, maybe something regarding

Adrenal

> fatigue. I did stop my HCG that week because my doctor had me on

Ovidrel at

> a much higher dose than I needed so I'm clearing out my system

before my

> next blood test and switch to another HCG medication next week.

Maybe this

> put my T levels really low, I'm secondary hypogonad and have been

on the

> Ovidrel since I started my T treatments so I don't know how much it

has been

> pushing up my numbers so I could have been low on T.

>

>

>

> I have included some information on vasomotor flush I found.

>

>

>

> http://www.internationalrosaceafoundation.org/symptoms.php4

>

> *Adrenaline flushing* - This kind of vascular dilation is caused by

an

> adrenaline rush. This type of flushing is the same as systemic

flushing, but

> it is hormone released. Stress is the body's reaction to a

perceived threat.

> Adrenaline and hormones are released, and the nervous system is

activated,

> sharpening our senses, but simultaneously our pulse rises, our

muscles tense

> and our immune system begins to shut down.

>

> Adrenaline activity can also cause acne in both " men and women " as a

> reaction to mental stress or physical stress. In women,

testosterone is

> produced by the ovaries with the other half of testosterone in

women being

> produced by the adrenal glands. Obviously, estrogen smoothes out the

> testosterone produced by the ovaries, but when the estrogen level

drops

> several days before the menstrual periods, sometimes resulting acne

occurs

> especially when the adrenal glands over produce due to stress or

fatigue.

> The adrenal glands can be stressed continually in both men and women

> resulting in too much testosterone with the resulting over

stimulation of

> the sebaceous glands. Similarly, in the male an over abundance of

testicular

> testosterone especially with overly stimulated adrenal glands

causes the

> overly stimulated sebaceous glands. Quite often more stress is

placed on the

> adult after puberty resulting in over active sebaceous glands.

While we can

> not produce more estrogen to level out the testosterone, we can

drink much

> more water which will help relieve stress and assist both acne and

rosacea.

> Getting enough sleep and finding ways to relax will help relieve

stress and

> reduce the adrenaline reaction that follows.

>

> http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/331/6/347

>

> Low-dose megestrol acetate as a treatment for hot flashes in women

with

> breast cancer and in men who had undergone androgen-deprivation

therapy for

> prostate cancer.

>

> http://www.clinicaladvances.com/hemonc/2006/0906/0906_basaria.pdf

>

> *Hot Flashes*

>

> Although not life-threatening, hot flashes in men receiving ADT can

> significantly affect quality of life. Hot flashes, which are a

manifestation

> of vasomotor instability, are generally described as a sudden

perception of

> heat located within the upper body and can be accompanied by a

change in

> skin color to pink or red, a feeling of warmth in the arms and

soles, or

> sudden sweating (which may be accompanied by chills), lasting for

seconds to

> hours.43 Hot flashes can be mild or severe, the latter can be

> inca­pacitating and could result in the inability to work or function

> normally. Some men also experience psychologic consequences of hot

flashes

> including anxiety, agitation, and impaired cognition.

>

> The exact pathophysiology of these hot flashes remains elusive.

However, it

> is believed that the main etiology of these symptoms in men is the

same as

> in postmenopausal women (ie, deficiency of estrogen). Indeed,

estrogen is

> well-known to exert direct, nongenomic effects on the blood

vessels.44 Some

> have speculated that the decline in estradiol results in changes in

the

> hypothalamic " thermo­regulatory zone, " which triggers the heat-loss

> mechanism, resulting in a hot flash.45 The phenomenon of hot

flashes in men

> is not limited to subjects undergoing ADT. Even men who suffer from

mild

> hypogonadism (of any etiol­ogy) also experience hot flashes. One

example is

> elderly

>

>

>

> There is much more to this article so read on…

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thom,

I know your thyroid counts are within the norm however....like

testosterone, everyone acts differently at different levels. I still

say the flushing is related to your thyroid. The only other thing I

personally can think of (hormone related) might be a high

progesterone level. Even women flush when our progesterone levels

are screwed up badly. Ever notice pregnant women flush? It's

progesterone, not estrogen causing that!

Good Luck, Vickie

In , " thombow " <thombow@...> wrote:

>

> compounding pharmacy said it was Isopropyl alcohol mixed with the

> testosterone. used it for over a year without a problem. i'd think

a

> bad reaction would show up sooner.

>

> I hope it's not that cea.

>

> thom

>

>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > yes, i remember it started last winter. after snow

shovelling

> > the

> > > > > driveway my face would be bright red. not a normal pink

one

> > after

> > > > > exertion like it should be. and it's continued all year.

in

> the

> > > > prior

> > > > > year i was ok

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hmm...sounds almost like cea. In

> > > >

> > > > http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/rosacea/rosacea.htm

> > > >

> > > > they talk about it but it sounds like its mostly confined to

> the

> > > > face. Yours sounds a lot more spread out.

> > > >

> > > > In their " What causes cea " section, they say:

> > > >

> > > > " Although the following factors have not been well-

researched,

> > some

> > > > people claim that one or more of them have aggravated their

> > > rosacea:

> > > > heat (including hot baths), strenuous exercise, sunlight,

wind,

> > > very

> > > > cold temperatures, hot or spicy foods and drinks, alcohol

> > > > consumption, menopause, emotional stress, and long-term use

of

> > > > topical steroids on the face. "

> > > >

> > > > They also mention an irritation to the eyes a lot. Have your

> eyes

> > > > been bothering you?

> > > > All of this could be (and probably is) a wild guess. I still

> > wonder

> > > > if there's something in that topical cream/testosterone

thats

> > > giving

> > > > you some skin reaction which was accelerated by building up

a

> hot

> > > > sweat shovelling snow.

> > > > Rich

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

Welcome. Good to have you here!

Did you ever start the Clomid? I have found it to be quite good, in

raising my T and the sperm count significantly at 50mgs. 3x week.

Are you using T with the HCG?? Don't you think you should??

Best and welcome again,

Bill

>

> Hey Philip,

>

> I'm fairly new to all of this and after being sick for around ten

years and

> being told it was all in my head my wife and I decided to try and

find out

> why we where having problems having children so my GP ran some

blood work

> and my T levels where 145 (241-827) around four months ago and

this got

> everything going.

>

> He recommended me to go to an Urologist but being we where looking

to try to

> get pregnant I decided to see an Endo, we went to a reproductive

Endo and a

> urologist to get other opinions the reproductive Endo wanted me to

go on

> clomed and urologist wouldn't treat me with HCG and felt that a

range of

> (400) would be good, so I'm sticking with my first Endo I went to.

>

> It has been a battle; I have finally convinced her that not all the

> information on the WEB is bad especially after I informed her that

she was

> over dosing me on HCG, she put me on Ovidrel that was 250ug pre-

loaded

> syringes, after looking into it and using it for a couple months I

found out

> that is equal to 6500IU of HCG so I'm in the process of switching

to Novarel

> and should be receiving it in the mail today. So she is finally

accepting

> that I should be a part of the process.

>

> I'm taking 5gm of Androgel each day I did try Androderm but that

didn't work

> out, they kept falling off and left me with red blotches where I

used it.

>

> I'm going to be taking 250iu of Novarel.

>

> I also take Levoxyl Tabs 175MCG for the Hypothyroid.

>

> My last numbers:

>

> TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 722 (241-827 ng/dl)

>

> FREE TESTOSTERONE 158.9 (50-210pg/ml)

>

> ESTRADIOL 48 (10-50pg/ml)

>

> I have an appointment with my doctor in a few weeks and I'm going

to discuss

> with her the high E2 levels and what we are going to do about that

next.

>

> this I had an MRI of the PIT (Asymmetry of the Pituitary Gland on

the Left,

> Cannot Exclude Adenoma) this was inconclusive. My GH is low but

she won't do

> anything with that until I get another MRI done in six months so I

need to

> wait until I get that treated. All my other hormone levels where

good.

>

> How did they discover you had low cortisol/DHEA, I had an AM

cortisol test

> done 18.9 (5-21 ug/dl) but I still seem to be falling on my but

towards the

> end of the day.

>

> After looking at all the complexities to all of this and being

told from two

> reproductive specialist that the only thing they will do is IVU

not to

> mention the expense of all of that my wife and I have decided to

try to

> adopt.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I've stopped taking the iodine supplement. Ill get progesterone

checked next lab. thanks

thom

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > yes, i remember it started last winter. after snow

> shovelling

> > > the

> > > > > > driveway my face would be bright red. not a normal pink

> one

> > > after

> > > > > > exertion like it should be. and it's continued all year.

> in

> > the

> > > > > prior

> > > > > > year i was ok

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hmm...sounds almost like cea. In

> > > > >

> > > > > http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/rosacea/rosacea.htm

> > > > >

> > > > > they talk about it but it sounds like its mostly confined

to

> > the

> > > > > face. Yours sounds a lot more spread out.

> > > > >

> > > > > In their " What causes cea " section, they say:

> > > > >

> > > > > " Although the following factors have not been well-

> researched,

> > > some

> > > > > people claim that one or more of them have aggravated their

> > > > rosacea:

> > > > > heat (including hot baths), strenuous exercise, sunlight,

> wind,

> > > > very

> > > > > cold temperatures, hot or spicy foods and drinks, alcohol

> > > > > consumption, menopause, emotional stress, and long-term use

> of

> > > > > topical steroids on the face. "

> > > > >

> > > > > They also mention an irritation to the eyes a lot. Have

your

> > eyes

> > > > > been bothering you?

> > > > > All of this could be (and probably is) a wild guess. I

still

> > > wonder

> > > > > if there's something in that topical cream/testosterone

> thats

> > > > giving

> > > > > you some skin reaction which was accelerated by building up

> a

> > hot

> > > > > sweat shovelling snow.

> > > > > Rich

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Bill,

No I never did start the Clomid; the 40k per IVF kind of discouraged us

from proceeding in that direction.

What where your numbers before and after starting the Clomid and how did you

feel after taking the medication.

I'm concerned with feeling like crap again if I was to switch. Looking at

how I feel now in comparison with the last ten years of feeling like garbage

I'm very skeptical about changing anything.

I'm only taking (NOW) a small dose of HCG 250IU SQ with the 5gs Androgel as

a maintenance dose to prevent atrophy/sterility.

My wife and I are looking at adoption (we have a state case worker coming

over tonight) but I would love to have children of our own. The problem has

been every where we go the only thing they want to do is IVF, if you talk

about anything else they just shoot you down. I think it is all about the

money!

Has anyone else here been able to have kids with low T #'s and counts? What

have you done to fix it?

On 11/29/06, williamb11 <no_reply > wrote:

>

> ,

>

> Welcome. Good to have you here!

>

> Did you ever start the Clomid? I have found it to be quite good, in

> raising my T and the sperm count significantly at 50mgs. 3x week.

>

> Are you using T with the HCG?? Don't you think you should??

>

> Best and welcome again,

> Bill

>

>

> >

> > Hey Philip,

> >

> > I'm fairly new to all of this and after being sick for around ten

> years and

> > being told it was all in my head my wife and I decided to try and

> find out

> > why we where having problems having children so my GP ran some

> blood work

> > and my T levels where 145 (241-827) around four months ago and

> this got

> > everything going.

> >

> > He recommended me to go to an Urologist but being we where looking

> to try to

> > get pregnant I decided to see an Endo, we went to a reproductive

> Endo and a

> > urologist to get other opinions the reproductive Endo wanted me to

> go on

> > clomed and urologist wouldn't treat me with HCG and felt that a

> range of

> > (400) would be good, so I'm sticking with my first Endo I went to.

> >

> > It has been a battle; I have finally convinced her that not all the

> > information on the WEB is bad especially after I informed her that

> she was

> > over dosing me on HCG, she put me on Ovidrel that was 250ug pre-

> loaded

> > syringes, after looking into it and using it for a couple months I

> found out

> > that is equal to 6500IU of HCG so I'm in the process of switching

> to Novarel

> > and should be receiving it in the mail today. So she is finally

> accepting

> > that I should be a part of the process.

> >

> > I'm taking 5gm of Androgel each day I did try Androderm but that

> didn't work

> > out, they kept falling off and left me with red blotches where I

> used it.

> >

> > I'm going to be taking 250iu of Novarel.

> >

> > I also take Levoxyl Tabs 175MCG for the Hypothyroid.

> >

> > My last numbers:

> >

> > TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 722 (241-827 ng/dl)

> >

> > FREE TESTOSTERONE 158.9 (50-210pg/ml)

> >

> > ESTRADIOL 48 (10-50pg/ml)

> >

> > I have an appointment with my doctor in a few weeks and I'm going

> to discuss

> > with her the high E2 levels and what we are going to do about that

> next.

> >

> > this I had an MRI of the PIT (Asymmetry of the Pituitary Gland on

> the Left,

> > Cannot Exclude Adenoma) this was inconclusive. My GH is low but

> she won't do

> > anything with that until I get another MRI done in six months so I

> need to

> > wait until I get that treated. All my other hormone levels where

> good.

> >

> > How did they discover you had low cortisol/DHEA, I had an AM

> cortisol test

> > done 18.9 (5-21 ug/dl) but I still seem to be falling on my but

> towards the

> > end of the day.

> >

> > After looking at all the complexities to all of this and being

> told from two

> > reproductive specialist that the only thing they will do is IVU

> not to

> > mention the expense of all of that my wife and I have decided to

> try to

> > adopt.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Wow 6500 IU's I hope you did not burn out your testis. Dr. has his

treatment protocol free on the web he was one of the first Dr.'s to add HCG to

TRT. Here is a link read TRT: A Recipe for Success and his HCG Update.

http://www.allthingsmale.com/Publications.html

And you can post to him with questions at this site.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/

I just read the other day he is going to have guest speakers at this site

talking about are problems. He to me is one of the best Dr.'s for low T he

started out treating weight lifters that messed there selfs up on steroids now

he has big teaching seminars showing Dr.'s how to treat low T.

My Dr. the one I see now I have been with for 15 yrs. I keep copys of all my

blood work and tests. Looking back my DHEA, Cortisol, Thyroid, Glucose and

IGF-1 have always been low normal and this is screaming Hypopituitary Problems.

Dr.'s never seen this because they don't know or remember there math. A labs

range is a Bell Curve the Mean being normal and to the right is the high end and

to the left is the lower end. Just because one is in a normal range does not

mean there is not a probelm.

Now your cortisol is not bad but most normal men in the morning are up at 25.

You need to understand these ranges are people that are sick that the labs tests

and they take all these tests and put them into a SPC program and crunch the

numbers and get these ranges. Also most of use find that the best treatment for

Thyroid is Armour. So I am going to give you a link to a site that if full of

info on Adrenals, Thyroid and Hypopituitary problems. Fist is a test you can

order for cortisol $140.00 this is the best way to test cortisol.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/

Down the page is the Canary Clube do this test.

For info on your Pituitary they have post to him but read the info at

the top of the site. It is full of things that can go wrong with a Pit.

problem.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/community/viewforum.php?f=10 & sid=cc97bf176e\

7db61287e92545e6136cfd

For you thyroid check your temp before getting out of bed under your arm for

10min.'s if your temp is under 97.7 your Thyroid med in not working. This have

been around long before blood testing for thyroid and still the best way to tell

how your doing. Also after your up 3 hrs. check you temp every 3 hrs. 3x's a

day and avg. it and put it on this chart from this site.

I just checked this site and it's down but keep trying it.

http://www.drrind.com/tempgraph.asp#directions

If you temp is up or down more the .2 tenths your Adremals are stressed.

I don't do gels anymore they don't get my levels up high enough and it can be

because having Thyroid problems you skin can get think and the gels can't get

through. I have very sore joints and muscles on gels I was dam house bound for

4 yrs. could hardly walk. So when I found out about Dr. 's treatment this

saved my life. Today I do shots I do them every 3 days shooting 50 mgs of Depo

T and the 2 days in between I do 400 IU's of HCG each day. I take Arimidex .5

mgs every outherday to keep my E2 down one needs to keep it between 10 to 30

best at 20 pg/ml or your will not have morning wood and a very low libido with

bad ED and some have problems reaching an orgasm.

Yes men can still get there wife's pregnant at this site there are 4 that

thought being they have low T they don't need a condom and there wifes got

pregnant. Here is a link to this site that is a very good site for low T.

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/

If you need more let me know.

Phil

Osborne <ozzmed@...> wrote:

Hey Philip,

I'm fairly new to all of this and after being sick for around ten years and

being told it was all in my head my wife and I decided to try and find out

why we where having problems having children so my GP ran some blood work

and my T levels where 145 (241-827) around four months ago and this got

everything going.

He recommended me to go to an Urologist but being we where looking to try to

get pregnant I decided to see an Endo, we went to a reproductive Endo and a

urologist to get other opinions the reproductive Endo wanted me to go on

clomed and urologist wouldn't treat me with HCG and felt that a range of

(400) would be good, so I'm sticking with my first Endo I went to.

It has been a battle; I have finally convinced her that not all the

information on the WEB is bad especially after I informed her that she was

over dosing me on HCG, she put me on Ovidrel that was 250ug pre-loaded

syringes, after looking into it and using it for a couple months I found out

that is equal to 6500IU of HCG so I'm in the process of switching to Novarel

and should be receiving it in the mail today. So she is finally accepting

that I should be a part of the process.

I'm taking 5gm of Androgel each day I did try Androderm but that didn't work

out, they kept falling off and left me with red blotches where I used it.

I'm going to be taking 250iu of Novarel.

I also take Levoxyl Tabs 175MCG for the Hypothyroid.

My last numbers:

TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 722 (241-827 ng/dl)

FREE TESTOSTERONE 158.9 (50-210pg/ml)

ESTRADIOL 48 (10-50pg/ml)

I have an appointment with my doctor in a few weeks and I'm going to discuss

with her the high E2 levels and what we are going to do about that next.

this I had an MRI of the PIT (Asymmetry of the Pituitary Gland on the Left,

Cannot Exclude Adenoma) this was inconclusive. My GH is low but she won't do

anything with that until I get another MRI done in six months so I need to

wait until I get that treated. All my other hormone levels where good.

How did they discover you had low cortisol/DHEA, I had an AM cortisol test

done 18.9 (5-21 ug/dl) but I still seem to be falling on my but towards the

end of the day.

After looking at all the complexities to all of this and being told from two

reproductive specialist that the only thing they will do is IVU not to

mention the expense of all of that my wife and I have decided to try to

adopt.

[Guest guest]

> Has anyone else here been able to have kids with low T #'s and

> counts? What

> have you done to fix it?

>

A friend of mine is using about 2,000iu/week of hcg alone. His test

levels and sperm counts and morphology have improved markedly. Not

perfect but probably enough to conceive. They haven't conceived yet

but it has less than a year. I believe the wife has an issue that is

also contributing. I'll post about it when they conceive.

Brad

[Guest guest]

Thanks Philip/Brad for the information, it is much appreciated.

On 11/30/06, brad999us <no_reply > wrote:

>

>

>

> > Has anyone else here been able to have kids with low T #'s and

> > counts? What

> > have you done to fix it?

> >

>

> A friend of mine is using about 2,000iu/week of hcg alone. His test

> levels and sperm counts and morphology have improved markedly. Not

> perfect but probably enough to conceive. They haven't conceived yet

> but it has less than a year. I believe the wife has an issue that is

> also contributing. I'll post about it when they conceive.

>

> Brad

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Before Clomid treatment, my T was 260, SHBG 15, FSH 0.5 and LH 1.6.

After 1 month on Clomid, my T was 1120, SHBG 18, FSH 3 and LH 8. I

don't have sperm test readily available now to give you - but that

was a huge change too.

The transformation was astounding. I went from back/body aches,

mental fog, tiredness, lack of passion/strength/confidence in life,

no nighttime/morning erection, no sexual desire/libido, no memory,

tough time focusing, no restful sleep to the complete reverse in all

categories (my libido took a bit longer to come back vs. others). I

never experienced any side effects.

Also, since it is a generic drug (thus the lack of research and long

term studies of side effects, etc., the price is amazing low.

Many doctors have little experience with Clomid and are very

skeptical about side effects (because it is a generic drug), but

then again they had no trouble prescribing ADs and other drugs that

they have no idea how the work and certainly no longterm use

studies, since most are new. The only difference is that Big Pharma

got FDA approval because of potential revenue, whereas there would

be little to none if FDA approved Clomid usage.

If you want to chat offline, I certainly can.

Blessings to you and you wife! God has many ways to bring children

into our lives - an adoptions is a great one, too.

Bill

> > >

> > > Hey Philip,

> > >

> > > I'm fairly new to all of this and after being sick for around

ten

> > years and

> > > being told it was all in my head my wife and I decided to try

and

> > find out

> > > why we where having problems having children so my GP ran some

> > blood work

> > > and my T levels where 145 (241-827) around four months ago and

> > this got

> > > everything going.

> > >

> > > He recommended me to go to an Urologist but being we where

looking

> > to try to

> > > get pregnant I decided to see an Endo, we went to a

reproductive

> > Endo and a

> > > urologist to get other opinions the reproductive Endo wanted

me to

> > go on

> > > clomed and urologist wouldn't treat me with HCG and felt that a

> > range of

> > > (400) would be good, so I'm sticking with my first Endo I went

to.

> > >

> > > It has been a battle; I have finally convinced her that not

all the

> > > information on the WEB is bad especially after I informed her

that

> > she was

> > > over dosing me on HCG, she put me on Ovidrel that was 250ug

pre-

> > loaded

> > > syringes, after looking into it and using it for a couple

months I

> > found out

> > > that is equal to 6500IU of HCG so I'm in the process of

switching

> > to Novarel

> > > and should be receiving it in the mail today. So she is finally

> > accepting

> > > that I should be a part of the process.

> > >

> > > I'm taking 5gm of Androgel each day I did try Androderm but

that

> > didn't work

> > > out, they kept falling off and left me with red blotches where

I

> > used it.

> > >

> > > I'm going to be taking 250iu of Novarel.

> > >

> > > I also take Levoxyl Tabs 175MCG for the Hypothyroid.

> > >

> > > My last numbers:

> > >

> > > TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 722 (241-827 ng/dl)

> > >

> > > FREE TESTOSTERONE 158.9 (50-210pg/ml)

> > >

> > > ESTRADIOL 48 (10-50pg/ml)

> > >

> > > I have an appointment with my doctor in a few weeks and I'm

going

> > to discuss

> > > with her the high E2 levels and what we are going to do about

that

> > next.

> > >

> > > this I had an MRI of the PIT (Asymmetry of the Pituitary Gland

on

> > the Left,

> > > Cannot Exclude Adenoma) this was inconclusive. My GH is low but

> > she won't do

> > > anything with that until I get another MRI done in six months

so I

> > need to

> > > wait until I get that treated. All my other hormone levels

where

> > good.

> > >

> > > How did they discover you had low cortisol/DHEA, I had an AM

> > cortisol test

> > > done 18.9 (5-21 ug/dl) but I still seem to be falling on my but

> > towards the

> > > end of the day.

> > >

> > > After looking at all the complexities to all of this and being

> > told from two

> > > reproductive specialist that the only thing they will do is IVU

> > not to

> > > mention the expense of all of that my wife and I have decided

to

> > try to

> > > adopt.

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

,

How long have you been using this and did you start using it for infertility

reasons or just TRT?

On 11/30/06, williamb11 <no_reply > wrote:

>

> ,

>

> Before Clomid treatment, my T was 260, SHBG 15, FSH 0.5 and LH 1.6.

> After 1 month on Clomid, my T was 1120, SHBG 18, FSH 3 and LH 8. I

> don't have sperm test readily available now to give you - but that

> was a huge change too.

>

> The transformation was astounding. I went from back/body aches,

> mental fog, tiredness, lack of passion/strength/confidence in life,

> no nighttime/morning erection, no sexual desire/libido, no memory,

> tough time focusing, no restful sleep to the complete reverse in all

> categories (my libido took a bit longer to come back vs. others). I

> never experienced any side effects.

>

> Also, since it is a generic drug (thus the lack of research and long

> term studies of side effects, etc., the price is amazing low.

>

> Many doctors have little experience with Clomid and are very

> skeptical about side effects (because it is a generic drug), but

> then again they had no trouble prescribing ADs and other drugs that

> they have no idea how the work and certainly no longterm use

> studies, since most are new. The only difference is that Big Pharma

> got FDA approval because of potential revenue, whereas there would

> be little to none if FDA approved Clomid usage.

>

> If you want to chat offline, I certainly can.

>

> Blessings to you and you wife! God has many ways to bring children

> into our lives - an adoptions is a great one, too.

>

>

> Bill

>

>

> > > >

> > > > Hey Philip,

> > > >

> > > > I'm fairly new to all of this and after being sick for around

> ten

> > > years and

> > > > being told it was all in my head my wife and I decided to try

> and

> > > find out

> > > > why we where having problems having children so my GP ran some

> > > blood work

> > > > and my T levels where 145 (241-827) around four months ago and

> > > this got

> > > > everything going.

> > > >

> > > > He recommended me to go to an Urologist but being we where

> looking

> > > to try to

> > > > get pregnant I decided to see an Endo, we went to a

> reproductive

> > > Endo and a

> > > > urologist to get other opinions the reproductive Endo wanted

> me to

> > > go on

> > > > clomed and urologist wouldn't treat me with HCG and felt that a

> > > range of

> > > > (400) would be good, so I'm sticking with my first Endo I went

> to.

> > > >

> > > > It has been a battle; I have finally convinced her that not

> all the

> > > > information on the WEB is bad especially after I informed her

> that

> > > she was

> > > > over dosing me on HCG, she put me on Ovidrel that was 250ug

> pre-

> > > loaded

> > > > syringes, after looking into it and using it for a couple

> months I

> > > found out

> > > > that is equal to 6500IU of HCG so I'm in the process of

> switching

> > > to Novarel

> > > > and should be receiving it in the mail today. So she is finally

> > > accepting

> > > > that I should be a part of the process.

> > > >

> > > > I'm taking 5gm of Androgel each day I did try Androderm but

> that

> > > didn't work

> > > > out, they kept falling off and left me with red blotches where

> I

> > > used it.

> > > >

> > > > I'm going to be taking 250iu of Novarel.

> > > >

> > > > I also take Levoxyl Tabs 175MCG for the Hypothyroid.

> > > >

> > > > My last numbers:

> > > >

> > > > TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 722 (241-827 ng/dl)

> > > >

> > > > FREE TESTOSTERONE 158.9 (50-210pg/ml)

> > > >

> > > > ESTRADIOL 48 (10-50pg/ml)

> > > >

> > > > I have an appointment with my doctor in a few weeks and I'm

> going

> > > to discuss

> > > > with her the high E2 levels and what we are going to do about

> that

> > > next.

> > > >

> > > > this I had an MRI of the PIT (Asymmetry of the Pituitary Gland

> on

> > > the Left,

> > > > Cannot Exclude Adenoma) this was inconclusive. My GH is low but

> > > she won't do

> > > > anything with that until I get another MRI done in six months

> so I

> > > need to

> > > > wait until I get that treated. All my other hormone levels

> where

> > > good.

> > > >

> > > > How did they discover you had low cortisol/DHEA, I had an AM

> > > cortisol test

> > > > done 18.9 (5-21 ug/dl) but I still seem to be falling on my but

> > > towards the

> > > > end of the day.

> > > >

> > > > After looking at all the complexities to all of this and being

> > > told from two

> > > > reproductive specialist that the only thing they will do is IVU

> > > not to

> > > > mention the expense of all of that my wife and I have decided

> to

> > > try to

> > > > adopt.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

,

I used it from Feb. of 2003 until Feb. of 2006. I had stopped

because I started seeing a new naturalist doc. who wanted to see if

the Clomid had kick-started my pituitary and then tried a topical,

compounded T cream. Since then, I found a new Repro. Endo. in

Boston, at a research hospital, and tried all forms of T - gels,

patch, shots to no avail. The doc is having me start back up with

Clomid tommorrow.

Infertility was never an immediate concern (as I am 38 and no

girlfriend!). However, the Doc. told me yesterday that Clomid will

be excellent for fertility and often what she uses in men if HCG

doesn't take.

Blessings,

Bill

> > > > >

> > > > > Hey Philip,

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm fairly new to all of this and after being sick for

around

> > ten

> > > > years and

> > > > > being told it was all in my head my wife and I decided to

try

> > and

> > > > find out

> > > > > why we where having problems having children so my GP ran

some

> > > > blood work

> > > > > and my T levels where 145 (241-827) around four months ago

and

> > > > this got

> > > > > everything going.

> > > > >

> > > > > He recommended me to go to an Urologist but being we where

> > looking

> > > > to try to

> > > > > get pregnant I decided to see an Endo, we went to a

> > reproductive

> > > > Endo and a

> > > > > urologist to get other opinions the reproductive Endo

wanted

> > me to

> > > > go on

> > > > > clomed and urologist wouldn't treat me with HCG and felt

that a

> > > > range of

> > > > > (400) would be good, so I'm sticking with my first Endo I

went

> > to.

> > > > >

> > > > > It has been a battle; I have finally convinced her that not

> > all the

> > > > > information on the WEB is bad especially after I informed

her

> > that

> > > > she was

> > > > > over dosing me on HCG, she put me on Ovidrel that was 250ug

> > pre-

> > > > loaded

> > > > > syringes, after looking into it and using it for a couple

> > months I

> > > > found out

> > > > > that is equal to 6500IU of HCG so I'm in the process of

> > switching

> > > > to Novarel

> > > > > and should be receiving it in the mail today. So she is

finally

> > > > accepting

> > > > > that I should be a part of the process.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm taking 5gm of Androgel each day I did try Androderm but

> > that

> > > > didn't work

> > > > > out, they kept falling off and left me with red blotches

where

> > I

> > > > used it.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm going to be taking 250iu of Novarel.

> > > > >

> > > > > I also take Levoxyl Tabs 175MCG for the Hypothyroid.

> > > > >

> > > > > My last numbers:

> > > > >

> > > > > TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 722 (241-827 ng/dl)

> > > > >

> > > > > FREE TESTOSTERONE 158.9 (50-210pg/ml)

> > > > >

> > > > > ESTRADIOL 48 (10-50pg/ml)

> > > > >

> > > > > I have an appointment with my doctor in a few weeks and I'm

> > going

> > > > to discuss

> > > > > with her the high E2 levels and what we are going to do

about

> > that

> > > > next.

> > > > >

> > > > > this I had an MRI of the PIT (Asymmetry of the Pituitary

Gland

> > on

> > > > the Left,

> > > > > Cannot Exclude Adenoma) this was inconclusive. My GH is

low but

> > > > she won't do

> > > > > anything with that until I get another MRI done in six

months

> > so I

> > > > need to

> > > > > wait until I get that treated. All my other hormone levels

> > where

> > > > good.

> > > > >

> > > > > How did they discover you had low cortisol/DHEA, I had an

AM

> > > > cortisol test

> > > > > done 18.9 (5-21 ug/dl) but I still seem to be falling on

my but

> > > > towards the

> > > > > end of the day.

> > > > >

> > > > > After looking at all the complexities to all of this and

being

> > > > told from two

> > > > > reproductive specialist that the only thing they will do

is IVU

> > > > not to

> > > > > mention the expense of all of that my wife and I have

decided

> > to

> > > > try to

> > > > > adopt.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

> > > >

> > > > Hey Philip,

> > > >

> > > > I'm fairly new to all of this and after being sick for around

> ten

> > > years and

> > > > being told it was all in my head my wife and I decided to try

> and

> > > find out

> > > > why we where having problems having children so my GP ran some

> > > blood work

> > > > and my T levels where 145 (241-827) around four months ago and

> > > this got

> > > > everything going.

> > > >

> > > > He recommended me to go to an Urologist but being we where

> looking

> > > to try to

> > > > get pregnant I decided to see an Endo, we went to a

> reproductive

> > > Endo and a

> > > > urologist to get other opinions the reproductive Endo wanted

> me to

> > > go on

> > > > clomed and urologist wouldn't treat me with HCG and felt that a

> > > range of

> > > > (400) would be good, so I'm sticking with my first Endo I went

> to.

> > > >

> > > > It has been a battle; I have finally convinced her that not

> all the

> > > > information on the WEB is bad especially after I informed her

> that

> > > she was

> > > > over dosing me on HCG, she put me on Ovidrel that was 250ug

> pre-

> > > loaded

> > > > syringes, after looking into it and using it for a couple

> months I

> > > found out

> > > > that is equal to 6500IU of HCG so I'm in the process of

> switching

> > > to Novarel

> > > > and should be receiving it in the mail today. So she is finally

> > > accepting

> > > > that I should be a part of the process.

> > > >

> > > > I'm taking 5gm of Androgel each day I did try Androderm but

> that

> > > didn't work

> > > > out, they kept falling off and left me with red blotches where

> I

> > > used it.

> > > >

> > > > I'm going to be taking 250iu of Novarel.

> > > >

> > > > I also take Levoxyl Tabs 175MCG for the Hypothyroid.

> > > >

> > > > My last numbers:

> > > >

> > > > TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 722 (241-827 ng/dl)

> > > >

> > > > FREE TESTOSTERONE 158.9 (50-210pg/ml)

> > > >

> > > > ESTRADIOL 48 (10-50pg/ml)

> > > >

> > > > I have an appointment with my doctor in a few weeks and I'm

> going

> > > to discuss

> > > > with her the high E2 levels and what we are going to do about

> that

> > > next.

> > > >

> > > > this I had an MRI of the PIT (Asymmetry of the Pituitary Gland

> on

> > > the Left,

> > > > Cannot Exclude Adenoma) this was inconclusive. My GH is low but

> > > she won't do

> > > > anything with that until I get another MRI done in six months

> so I

> > > need to

> > > > wait until I get that treated. All my other hormone levels

> where

> > > good.

> > > >

> > > > How did they discover you had low cortisol/DHEA, I had an AM

> > > cortisol test

> > > > done 18.9 (5-21 ug/dl) but I still seem to be falling on my but

> > > towards the

> > > > end of the day.

> > > >

> > > > After looking at all the complexities to all of this and being

> > > told from two

> > > > reproductive specialist that the only thing they will do is IVU

> > > not to

> > > > mention the expense of all of that my wife and I have decided

> to

> > > try to

> > > > adopt.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >