Colloidal Silver

December 27, 2003

Does that come in a lighter shade of blue? I knew I was going to

take it on the chin for that post. But I wanted to run it by the

group because there are people out there who swear it works.

I'm not the only person out there who is investigating both

traditional and alternative methods to deal with Hep C. I just found

out that I have it a little over a year ago, so I've still much to

learn. If Colloidal Silver seems to be a risky venture with little

chance of success, one could argue that interferon treatments aren't

much better.

I could post links all day long to the downsides of interferon

treatment. But I don't care to waste my time or anyone elses. Most

folks here are much better informed than I as to the risks and side

effects of the only treatment that our multi billion dollar drug

companies have to offer. Personally, I think it's bullshit that

there is nothing better for victims of this disease. I recently read

that these drugs bring in about 10 billion annually for the pharms.

At 20K per treatment, where's the incentive to develop a vaccine or a

cure? Like you said in an earlier post Bob, regarding clinical

trials for alternatives " if there's no money in it, they won't do

the research... " I'm paraphrasing here, but you made your point quite

well.

The odds of interferon treatments curing HCV are poor at best for

most people. Yet the odds of becoming extremely ill as a result of

the treatment are quite good. Even the CDC has information

discussing warnings and risks of side effects including suicide.

Although the " blue " lady in the picture didn't kill herself, she

probably wanted to. I suspect that turning gray as a result of using

CS is probably quite rare. However it is a risk, and those

considering such measures should be made aware of it. While I've

heard of argyria, the photo definitely got my attention. Yikes!

I do appreciate everyones input regarding CS. For the record, I am

not convinced it works, nor am I about to put it into my body any

time soon. The same can be said for interferon treatment, at least

for the time being.

Still searching, pete

December 27, 2003

Your stats are indeed impressive for supporting the use of interferon

therapy. That's the first time I've heard anyone claim 80%,

including my gastro. You also stated that in my case I had an 8 out

of 10 chance of clearing the virus. Perhaps you are confusing my

histology with that of another. I am 1a, over 50 years old, high

VL,

ALT in excess of 200, high ferritin and iron staturation, and the

disease is quite advanced at this point.

Mea Culpa! I do have your stats confused with another....my

apologies.

Surely you'll agree that

I

don't exactly qualify as the poster child for interferon therapy.

It

is doubtful that I would even fall into the 43 percentile you stated

for geno 1a patients. I would likely be one of the players

that

bring the team average down.

Pete, while I agree that you may not be a poster child for INF tx there

is no way to predict your response to INF without trying a course of the

drug. There are a number of predictive indices that can be

used between starting the drugs and the 12 week standard hurdle.

While I'm not in medical

school, nor do

I attend hepatology conferences, there appears to be sufficient

clinical evidence to support my belief in this regard. Knowing

this,

you bet I am both disappointed and frustrated to learn that nothing

better exists at this time.

Have you looked over the preliminary data from the HALT-C and CO-PILOT

trials? The data is showing a very good response to maintenance

therapy and reversal of fibrosis.....up to three stages. I was also a

very difficult case one which is near identical to yours excepting the

high ferritin levels. Long-term therapy did reverse my fibrosis by

three stages from a stage 3 to a stage 0 on last biopsy.

> What odds can you cite

about people becoming extremely ill from

>treatment?

Now that you have asked, I'll see what I can dig up on the subject

and report back to you on my findings. I suspect you may already

have those stats. If so, please share.

I'll wait to see what your basing your decision on before I

comment.

> How do your odds of becoming extremely ill from treatment compare

> to the odds of disease progression? What is the risk/benefit

> between the two?

Another excellant question Bob. One in which I ponder nearly every

day. Can we stem the tide of disease progression? Hold the line so

to speak? Is there anything short of powerful drugs that might buy

some time for those who are not a candidate for interferon

treatment? You are better versed in these matters than I, so

perhaps

you could post the " risk/benefit " information if you have

specific

details.

There are few alternatives that have any promise at all of preventing or

reversing fibrosis. INF is the most powerful anti-fibrotic

available...period. Results of the Sho-saiko-to trial have even

begun to trickle in while the data from the gamma inf trials should be

available by this spring. In case you aren't aware gamma INF is in

trails as a anti-fibrotic....it has no anti-viral activity but is

targetting disease progression. In my case I am taking ursodiol and

high doses of vit E which have normalized my LFT. I also take Jay's

blend and high doses of milk thistle in an attempt to prevent progression

back to where I previously have been. None of these can be expected

to provide the dramatic reversals often seen with INF but may help with

people with less disease progression. If your disease progression

is as dire as you state you may want to consider INF tx over a short

course to see how you respond. REsponders, as you are probably

aware, are for the most part easy to tell within 12 weeks if its going to

work. IF the full course won't work there is reduced dosage without

riba. Anecdotally I do know of a person who has tried INF/riba tx

three times and has failed each time. He was put on maintenence

therapy at half dose pegasys and has cleared for the first time. He is a

transplant receipient and his liver desperately needs the break from

viral damage.

The debate regarding the use of

altenative vs traditional medicines

and the global corporations that push these drugs was covered at

great length a short while back on this board. Your position on

this

matter is known to all. While you were within the bounds of fair

discussion to address the points I raised, I see no benefit to

continue this portion of the discussion.

All right.

As far as this group being a

forum for open discussion and opinions,

posting a photo of a few people who turned blue, inferring that this

is what happens to people who use CS, is the equivalent to posting a

photo of someone with a revolver to their head as a potential side

effect of interferon use. Both examples are extreme and probably

occur in only a very small percentage of people. I also notice that

this group tends to square off for harsh debate whenever certain

issues come up. While I enjoy a lively discussion, I hope not to

become the subject of the harsh criticism that has been imposed

upon

others within the group.

Criticisms should be reserved for the issues not the people.

However, there have been a few who resort to ad hominem attacks rather

than debate...the situation often deteriorates from there. Civil

discourse is essential to the transfer and evaluation of information

without it we are doing ourselves a disservice. Your comments

certainly fall into the civil discourse arena and there is no reason

anyone should criticize you as a person or the beliefs you have.

Again the issues raised should be thoroughly discussed and critized where

appropriate. How else are we as a group going ot figure out what is

resonable and what is not. I would agree, as I stated previously,

that turning blue is a rare event using CS, however what is equally rare

(actually probably rarer) is amelioration of any disease state using

CS. There is no evidence for its efficacy only testimonials...and

we know how people lie to sell things.

kind regards,

BobK

December 28, 2003

Hello Bob,

First of all Bob, I did raise the issue initially to throw it out

there for discussion and to see if anyone in this group had

information about it. And I'll admit, it did get my attention for a

moment. But it should be understood that I stated I am not planning

on being the subject of a chemistry experiment by using CS to treat

my illness.

Your stats are indeed impressive for supporting the use of interferon

therapy. That's the first time I've heard anyone claim 80%,

including my gastro. You also stated that in my case I had an 8 out

of 10 chance of clearing the virus. Perhaps you are confusing my

histology with that of another. I am 1a, over 50 years old, high VL,

ALT in excess of 200, high ferritin and iron staturation, and the

disease is quite advanced at this point. Surely you'll agree that I

don't exactly qualify as the poster child for interferon therapy. It

is doubtful that I would even fall into the 43 percentile you stated

for geno 1a patients. I would likely be one of the players that

bring the team average down. While I'm not in medical school, nor do

I attend hepatology conferences, there appears to be sufficient

clinical evidence to support my belief in this regard. Knowing this,

you bet I am both disappointed and frustrated to learn that nothing

better exists at this time.

> What odds can you cite about people becoming extremely ill from

>treatment?

Now that you have asked, I'll see what I can dig up on the subject

and report back to you on my findings. I suspect you may already

have those stats. If so, please share.

> How do your odds of becoming extremely ill from treatment compare

> to the odds of disease progression? What is the risk/benefit

> between the two?

Another excellant question Bob. One in which I ponder nearly every

day. Can we stem the tide of disease progression? Hold the line so

to speak? Is there anything short of powerful drugs that might buy

some time for those who are not a candidate for interferon

treatment? You are better versed in these matters than I, so perhaps

you could post the " risk/benefit " information if you have specific

details.

The debate regarding the use of altenative vs traditional medicines

and the global corporations that push these drugs was covered at

great length a short while back on this board. Your position on this

matter is known to all. While you were within the bounds of fair

discussion to address the points I raised, I see no benefit to

continue this portion of the discussion.

As far as this group being a forum for open discussion and opinions,

posting a photo of a few people who turned blue, inferring that this

is what happens to people who use CS, is the equivalent to posting a

photo of someone with a revolver to their head as a potential side

effect of interferon use. Both examples are extreme and probably

occur in only a very small percentage of people. I also notice that

this group tends to square off for harsh debate whenever certain

issues come up. While I enjoy a lively discussion, I hope not to

become the subject of the harsh criticism that has been imposed upon

others within the group.

Thanks, pete

December 28, 2003

Dear Pete...So very well said, thank you for this wonderful post.

sunflower

[ ] Re: Colloidal silver

Hello Bob,First of all Bob, I did raise the issue initially to throw it out there for discussion and to see if anyone in this group had information about it. And I'll admit, it did get my attention for a moment. But it should be understood that I stated I am not planning on being the subject of a chemistry experiment by using CS to treat my illness. Your stats are indeed impressive for supporting the use of interferon therapy. That's the first time I've heard anyone claim 80%, including my gastro. You also stated that in my case I had an 8 out of 10 chance of clearing the virus. Perhaps you are confusing my histology with that of another. I am 1a, over 50 years old, high VL, ALT in excess of 200, high ferritin and iron staturation, and the disease is quite advanced at this point. Surely you'll agree that I don't exactly qualify as the poster child for interferon therapy. It is doubtful that I would even fall into the 43 percentile you stated for geno 1a patients. I would likely be one of the players that bring the team average down. While I'm not in medical school, nor do I attend hepatology conferences, there appears to be sufficient clinical evidence to support my belief in this regard. Knowing this, you bet I am both disappointed and frustrated to learn that nothing better exists at this time. > What odds can you cite about people becoming extremely ill from >treatment? Now that you have asked, I'll see what I can dig up on the subject and report back to you on my findings. I suspect you may already have those stats. If so, please share. > How do your odds of becoming extremely ill from treatment compare > to the odds of disease progression? What is the risk/benefit > between the two?Another excellant question Bob. One in which I ponder nearly every day. Can we stem the tide of disease progression? Hold the line so to speak? Is there anything short of powerful drugs that might buy some time for those who are not a candidate for interferon treatment? You are better versed in these matters than I, so perhaps you could post the "risk/benefit" information if you have specific details. The debate regarding the use of altenative vs traditional medicines and the global corporations that push these drugs was covered at great length a short while back on this board. Your position on this matter is known to all. While you were within the bounds of fair discussion to address the points I raised, I see no benefit to continue this portion of the discussion.As far as this group being a forum for open discussion and opinions, posting a photo of a few people who turned blue, inferring that this is what happens to people who use CS, is the equivalent to posting a photo of someone with a revolver to their head as a potential side effect of interferon use. Both examples are extreme and probably occur in only a very small percentage of people. I also notice that this group tends to square off for harsh debate whenever certain issues come up. While I enjoy a lively discussion, I hope not to become the subject of the harsh criticism that has been imposed upon others within the group. Thanks, pete

December 28, 2003

Pete,

Your Gastro should read a little more often as those stats are

current. My health situation is very similar to yours. I am

currently on TX for the 3rd time. My main reason is to keep my liver

in as best shape as possible, for as long as possible. I do keep in

mind these stats that apply to me. Zero % or 100%, as everything

else is fluff. If I clear, bonus.

The problem is that one does not hear from the thousands who have

cleared using current and past interferon therapies. We do hear from

many who have a pre-disposition to having an aversion to current

medical practice with HCV and other conditions and use HCV as a

springboard to vent their venom. Most of what they spout has no

bearing in reality, as they change the rules constantly to suit

their program. One day it is ALT's, next it is viral loads. Few ever

have biopsies to confirm their views, or if they do they will not

present here, as it would damage their claims.

If there are those who wish to keep dumping product into their

systems claiming that these products help, then I would look under

placebo effect for the answer, as to their amazing claims. Eating

well, getting plenty of exercise and keeping a positive attitude

will go much farther than creating very expensive urine as in the

case of most who flood their bodies with herbal concoctions.

> Hello Bob,

>

> First of all Bob, I did raise the issue initially to throw it out

> there for discussion and to see if anyone in this group had

> information about it. And I'll admit, it did get my attention for

a

> moment. But it should be understood that I stated I am not

planning

> on being the subject of a chemistry experiment by using CS to

treat

> my illness.

>

> Your stats are indeed impressive for supporting the use of

interferon

> therapy. That's the first time I've heard anyone claim 80%,

> including my gastro. You also stated that in my case I had an 8

out

> of 10 chance of clearing the virus. Perhaps you are confusing my

> histology with that of another. I am 1a, over 50 years old, high

VL,

> ALT in excess of 200, high ferritin and iron staturation, and the

> disease is quite advanced at this point. Surely you'll agree

that I

> don't exactly qualify as the poster child for interferon therapy.

It

> is doubtful that I would even fall into the 43 percentile you

stated

> for geno 1a patients. I would likely be one of the players that

> bring the team average down. While I'm not in medical school, nor

do

> I attend hepatology conferences, there appears to be sufficient

> clinical evidence to support my belief in this regard. Knowing

this,

> you bet I am both disappointed and frustrated to learn that

nothing

> better exists at this time.

>

> > What odds can you cite about people becoming extremely ill

from

> >treatment?

>

> Now that you have asked, I'll see what I can dig up on the subject

> and report back to you on my findings. I suspect you may already

> have those stats. If so, please share.

>

> > How do your odds of becoming extremely ill from treatment

compare

> > to the odds of disease progression? What is the risk/benefit

> > between the two?

>

> Another excellant question Bob. One in which I ponder nearly

every

> day. Can we stem the tide of disease progression? Hold the line

so

> to speak? Is there anything short of powerful drugs that might

buy

> some time for those who are not a candidate for interferon

> treatment? You are better versed in these matters than I, so

perhaps

> you could post the " risk/benefit " information if you have specific

> details.

>

> The debate regarding the use of altenative vs traditional

medicines

> and the global corporations that push these drugs was covered at

> great length a short while back on this board. Your position on

this

> matter is known to all. While you were within the bounds of fair

> discussion to address the points I raised, I see no benefit to

> continue this portion of the discussion.

>

> As far as this group being a forum for open discussion and

opinions,

> posting a photo of a few people who turned blue, inferring that

this

> is what happens to people who use CS, is the equivalent to posting

a

> photo of someone with a revolver to their head as a potential side

> effect of interferon use. Both examples are extreme and probably

> occur in only a very small percentage of people. I also notice

that

> this group tends to square off for harsh debate whenever certain

> issues come up. While I enjoy a lively discussion, I hope not to

> become the subject of the harsh criticism that has been imposed

upon

> others within the group.

>

> Thanks, pete

December 28, 2003

>Here's my Question---Bob, why do you and andy seem to be so against

>alternatives, and yet you use them? (Not trying to be fresh--am sincerely

>curious)--

If you even have to ask this question you truely haven't been paying

attention! Alternatives is a very large term and to paint everything in

the same light creates a oversimplification of the issues. What I, and I

believe Andy, objects to is the many unfounded claims that are put forth

for the so called alternatives. For example you and others are/ere a great

believer in microhydrin. This is such a ridiculous product and yet you and

others fall for it. I have in the past worked with hydrides....they are so

chemically reactive it would be akin to using lye for an antacid. The whole

concept is bogus and all that is sold is false hope....that I object

too. You Satya have bought into this false hope and I am sure on some

level you are extremely upset that it didn't work. In the case of milk

thistle the research has been atrocious and the best review of the

literature indicates that with all the studies that have been done we still

don't know how effective this actually is for a person to take. But there

is some indication and rational hypothesis on why it might work and how it

might do this. This is something that microhydirn (used as an extreme

example) does not have going for it. In your case Satya you have made many

claims about how you are going to clear the virus with your natural

protocol....I consider this as spreading false hope and unrealistic

expectations and as you well know it is not true. These are but a few of

the objections that are made for alternatives and why Andy and I speak up

when unrealistic and unsubstantiated claims are made for the so called

alternatives.

Often the advocates of alternatives will believe anything...one only has to

peruse the internet for a few moments to discover that this is true. Their

guts don't know anything about biochemistry, chemistry, and physics and

will often wish to believe anything is plausible. One must remember that

just because something sounds plausible doesn't mean that it actually

occurs and if one loses sight of this reality they set themselves up for

all sorts of heartbreak when the miracles don't show up. I can't tell you

how many deadends I have hit in my own research when plausible hypothesis

are demonstrated not to be reality. As a general question for anyone to

consider how many supplements have you taken and felt that this particular

substance was doing great things only to have the feeling fade in a short

time and so you switch to something else and so on and so forth.

I certainly realize that many drugs we use have natural sources as their

origin. This is not to say that all herbs or plants contain beneficial

substances. A cry often goes up of use for thousands of years and

therefore these substances must be good. This is another ridiculous stance

which blinds one to reality. Take aristocholic acid it has been used for

over 5 thousand years and it wasn't discovered until a few years ago that

this is a very efficient compound for creating kidney cancer. A person

must be able to keep reality in sight in evaluating these substances and

when contrary evidence is ignored the blinders are on and the belief

becomes a religion...These are a few of my objections and if you still

aren't clear on my stance then ask and I'll post more.

>if you are saying that they may be good for those not yet progressed in

>the disease, why do you(andy) seem to bash them so often, when I myself,

>as you know, have low fibrosis and am one of those who believes they can

>stave off progression by the use of alternatives (supps)--it seems you are

>saying that alternatives are a good, safe way to go for those yet

>unprogressed in the disease.....or am I missing it?

In your case Satya, as with many with this disease, your lack of fibrosis

is more how your body handles the disease despite what you do or what you

take. As you have mentioned in the past you have not taken the best care

of yourself and abused alcohol. Despite this your liver has not progressed

and many are in your boat and I for one am grateful you don't have to

suffer the progression of the liver disease. Your lack of fibrosis is an

indication of how your own immune system handles the virus also indicated

with your low viral load. It is very likely that this will remain the case

if you never took another supplement in your life and attributing it to the

supplements would perhaps be misleading. For those of us who do not handle

the virus as well progression of fibrosis is a very real and ongoing

event. WE do not have the options you do with our health. Ours is the

case where false hope and unfounded belief in what supplements may actually

do may cause problems for a individual by delaying the initiation of proven

therapies. This is one of the reasons the microhydrin topic causes such

outrage.

again if you are still unclear on the concept please ask and I'll try to

clarify the subject for you.

regards,

BobK

December 28, 2003

Again,

what's wrong with the placebo effect?. If something works, however it

does, why not use it?

How much are you willing to pay to fool yourself I guess would be a

better question. Often with the short-lived placebo effect what

follows is empty wallets and crushed hope that is not a very good

deal.

We

don't know exactly how electricity works, but when you flip a light

switch you get light! ....

While you may not know how electricity works it is a very well understood

process based in physics and chemistry.

I've never personally witnessed any medical miracles, yet I have seen

personally many medical mistakes and

tragedies

Do you consider the medical successes in your equation? Why would

you attribute the increase in lifespan (30 year increase) over the last

100 years too? How about the increase in survival of breastcancer

patients in the last ten years? While I too have seen serious

medical errors made they are the fault of the practitioner (who is human)

and not the fault of the science and/or evidence for a specific

therapy. This is one of the problems I have with alternative

believers is their preferentially focusing on one aspect while ignoring

the other aspects of a topic.

regards,

BobK

December 28, 2003

Greetings,

I watched a segment of ABC's Nightline a couple of evenings past that

discussed liver transplants from live donors. A Hepetologist from

Hopkins commented that the current number of patients requiring

liver transplants is around 17,000 annually and is expected to

substantially increase due to the millions of people suffering from

HCV. Hearing this information coming at you in your living room

certainly drives home the point of the urgent need to take the steps

neccessary to minimize the progression of the this disease.

I applaud your success in reversing the fibrosis. That must give one

at least some sense of relief if only temporary. Stage 3 to stage 0

is truly awesome. I have learned to accept how difficult complete

irradication of the virus is and no longer even consider that as a

possibility. At least it's not something that I am counting on. As

Andy put it. " That's a bonus... " The focus must be on halting the

progression of damage to my liver.

I appreciate that fact that this discusion has quickly taken on a

contructive nature, and I welcome the input and information you have

taken the time to provide. You have pointed out new detail that I

was not aware of. For example, all INF treatments are not equal, as

you pointed out, there a number differnet approaches to the

treatment. I think my gastro has a " one size fits all " mentality,

based upon a conversation I had with his nurse. She mentioned that

he administers Pegasys/Copegus combo treatment for all of his HCV

patients. She did not elaborate as to timelines or doseage, nor did I

know what to specifically ask.

I have a meeting scheduled with him on the 31st to discuss in detail

my recent biopsy results and what direction I should take from here.

I know what he will recommend, my concern is whether or not he is on

top of his game. I would obviously wish to optimize my results if at

all possible. For example, would it be beneficial to attempt to

lower ferritin level before treatment? I read a number of articles

that concluded that this approach resulted in a better overall

response to INF treatment compared to those with high serum ferritin

prior to treatment.

As you can see, I tend to keep micro mangaging all of this. Your

point that I have no indication of how well I might respond, or what

side effects I may experience, until I agree to treatment is well

taken. I have to get my head right before I determine anything, and

I sure hope the Pegasys/Copegus is the good stuff.

Thanks for the plethora of links you provided in your follow up

post. I will start sifting to the information in hopes to obtain a

better understanding of the disease and treatment options. I'll

check back in next week after my doctor appointment.

Thanks once again Bob,

pete

December 29, 2003

Bob wrote: " I also take Jay's blend and high doses of milk thistle in an attempt to prevent progression back to where I previously have been." Here's my Question---Bob, why do you and andy seem to be so against alternatives, and yet you use them? (Not trying to be fresh--am sincerely curious)--if you are saying that they may be good for those not yet progressed in the disease, why do you(andy) seem to bash them so often, when I myself, as you know, have low fibrosis and am one of those who believes they can stave off progression by the use of alternatives (supps)--it seems you are saying that alternatives are a good, safe way to go for those yet unprogressed in the disease.....or am I missing it? Thanks. Blessings, Satya

Re: [ ] Re: Colloidal silver

Your stats are indeed impressive for supporting the use of interferon therapy. That's the first time I've heard anyone claim 80%, including my gastro. You also stated that in my case I had an 8 out of 10 chance of clearing the virus. Perhaps you are confusing my histology with that of another. I am 1a, over 50 years old, high VL, ALT in excess of 200, high ferritin and iron staturation, and the disease is quite advanced at this point. Mea Culpa! I do have your stats confused with another....my apologies.

Surely you'll agree that I don't exactly qualify as the poster child for interferon therapy. It is doubtful that I would even fall into the 43 percentile you stated for geno 1a patients. I would likely be one of the players that bring the team average down. Pete, while I agree that you may not be a poster child for INF tx there is no way to predict your response to INF without trying a course of the drug. There are a number of predictive indices that can be used between starting the drugs and the 12 week standard hurdle.

While I'm not in medical school, nor do I attend hepatology conferences, there appears to be sufficient clinical evidence to support my belief in this regard. Knowing this, you bet I am both disappointed and frustrated to learn that nothing better exists at this time. Have you looked over the preliminary data from the HALT-C and CO-PILOT trials? The data is showing a very good response to maintenance therapy and reversal of fibrosis.....up to three stages. I was also a very difficult case one which is near identical to yours excepting the high ferritin levels. Long-term therapy did reverse my fibrosis by three stages from a stage 3 to a stage 0 on last biopsy.

> What odds can you cite about people becoming extremely ill from >treatment? Now that you have asked, I'll see what I can dig up on the subject and report back to you on my findings. I suspect you may already have those stats. If so, please share. I'll wait to see what your basing your decision on before I comment.

> How do your odds of becoming extremely ill from treatment compare > to the odds of disease progression? What is the risk/benefit > between the two?Another excellant question Bob. One in which I ponder nearly every day. Can we stem the tide of disease progression? Hold the line so to speak? Is there anything short of powerful drugs that might buy some time for those who are not a candidate for interferon treatment? You are better versed in these matters than I, so perhaps you could post the "risk/benefit" information if you have specific details. There are few alternatives that have any promise at all of preventing or reversing fibrosis. INF is the most powerful anti-fibrotic available...period. Results of the Sho-saiko-to trial have even begun to trickle in while the data from the gamma inf trials should be available by this spring. In case you aren't aware gamma INF is in trails as a anti-fibrotic....it has no anti-viral activity but is targetting disease progression. In my case I am taking ursodiol and high doses of vit E which have normalized my LFT. I also take Jay's blend and high doses of milk thistle in an attempt to prevent progression back to where I previously have been. None of these can be expected to provide the dramatic reversals often seen with INF but may help with people with less disease progression. If your disease progression is as dire as you state you may want to consider INF tx over a short course to see how you respond. REsponders, as you are probably aware, are for the most part easy to tell within 12 weeks if its going to work. IF the full course won't work there is reduced dosage without riba. Anecdotally I do know of a person who has tried INF/riba tx three times and has failed each time. He was put on maintenence therapy at half dose pegasys and has cleared for the first time. He is a transplant receipient and his liver desperately needs the break from viral damage.

The debate regarding the use of altenative vs traditional medicines and the global corporations that push these drugs was covered at great length a short while back on this board. Your position on this matter is known to all. While you were within the bounds of fair discussion to address the points I raised, I see no benefit to continue this portion of the discussion.All right.

As far as this group being a forum for open discussion and opinions, posting a photo of a few people who turned blue, inferring that this is what happens to people who use CS, is the equivalent to posting a photo of someone with a revolver to their head as a potential side effect of interferon use. Both examples are extreme and probably occur in only a very small percentage of people. I also notice that this group tends to square off for harsh debate whenever certain issues come up. While I enjoy a lively discussion, I hope not to become the subject of the harsh criticism that has been imposed upon others within the group. Criticisms should be reserved for the issues not the people. However, there have been a few who resort to ad hominem attacks rather than debate...the situation often deteriorates from there. Civil discourse is essential to the transfer and evaluation of information without it we are doing ourselves a disservice. Your comments certainly fall into the civil discourse arena and there is no reason anyone should criticize you as a person or the beliefs you have. Again the issues raised should be thoroughly discussed and critized where appropriate. How else are we as a group going ot figure out what is resonable and what is not. I would agree, as I stated previously, that turning blue is a rare event using CS, however what is equally rare (actually probably rarer) is amelioration of any disease state using CS. There is no evidence for its efficacy only testimonials...and we know how people lie to sell things.kind regards,BobK

December 29, 2003

Again, what's wrong with the placebo effect?. If something works, however it does, why not use it? We don't know exactly how electricity works, but when you flip a light switch you get light! .... Another comment: What would be the point of making such "claims" for the efficacy, in my case anyway, of alternatives for fighting HCV when there is no gain to be made? (I don't sell supps, am not particularly political, don't belong to any vocal active HepC groups, etc.). For me, I think it is a matter of being stuck in my ways. I've never used pharmaceuticals (that have worked) or have been hospitalized, and natural alternatives have always served me well, my whole life. I've never personally witnessed any medical miracles, yet I have seen personally many medical mistakes and tragedies. Sometimes one has to go with their experience......and of course, their gut and soul.....Blessings, Satya

[ ] Re: Colloidal silver

Pete,Your Gastro should read a little more often as those stats are current. My health situation is very similar to yours. I am currently on TX for the 3rd time. My main reason is to keep my liver in as best shape as possible, for as long as possible. I do keep in mind these stats that apply to me. Zero % or 100%, as everything else is fluff. If I clear, bonus.The problem is that one does not hear from the thousands who have cleared using current and past interferon therapies. We do hear from many who have a pre-disposition to having an aversion to current medical practice with HCV and other conditions and use HCV as a springboard to vent their venom. Most of what they spout has no bearing in reality, as they change the rules constantly to suit their program. One day it is ALT's, next it is viral loads. Few ever have biopsies to confirm their views, or if they do they will not present here, as it would damage their claims.If there are those who wish to keep dumping product into their systems claiming that these products help, then I would look under placebo effect for the answer, as to their amazing claims. Eating well, getting plenty of exercise and keeping a positive attitude will go much farther than creating very expensive urine as in the case of most who flood their bodies with herbal concoctions. > Hello Bob,> > First of all Bob, I did raise the issue initially to throw it out > there for discussion and to see if anyone in this group had > information about it. And I'll admit, it did get my attention for a > moment. But it should be understood that I stated I am not planning > on being the subject of a chemistry experiment by using CS to treat > my illness. > > Your stats are indeed impressive for supporting the use of interferon > therapy. That's the first time I've heard anyone claim 80%, > including my gastro. You also stated that in my case I had an 8 out > of 10 chance of clearing the virus. Perhaps you are confusing my > histology with that of another. I am 1a, over 50 years old, high VL, > ALT in excess of 200, high ferritin and iron staturation, and the > disease is quite advanced at this point. Surely you'll agree that I > don't exactly qualify as the poster child for interferon therapy. It > is doubtful that I would even fall into the 43 percentile you stated > for geno 1a patients. I would likely be one of the players that > bring the team average down. While I'm not in medical school, nor do > I attend hepatology conferences, there appears to be sufficient > clinical evidence to support my belief in this regard. Knowing this, > you bet I am both disappointed and frustrated to learn that nothing > better exists at this time. > > > What odds can you cite about people becoming extremely ill from > >treatment? > > Now that you have asked, I'll see what I can dig up on the subject > and report back to you on my findings. I suspect you may already > have those stats. If so, please share. > > > How do your odds of becoming extremely ill from treatment compare > > to the odds of disease progression? What is the risk/benefit > > between the two?> > Another excellant question Bob. One in which I ponder nearly every > day. Can we stem the tide of disease progression? Hold the line so > to speak? Is there anything short of powerful drugs that might buy > some time for those who are not a candidate for interferon > treatment? You are better versed in these matters than I, so perhaps > you could post the "risk/benefit" information if you have specific > details. > > The debate regarding the use of altenative vs traditional medicines > and the global corporations that push these drugs was covered at > great length a short while back on this board. Your position on this > matter is known to all. While you were within the bounds of fair > discussion to address the points I raised, I see no benefit to > continue this portion of the discussion.> > As far as this group being a forum for open discussion and opinions, > posting a photo of a few people who turned blue, inferring that this > is what happens to people who use CS, is the equivalent to posting a > photo of someone with a revolver to their head as a potential side > effect of interferon use. Both examples are extreme and probably > occur in only a very small percentage of people. I also notice that > this group tends to square off for harsh debate whenever certain > issues come up. While I enjoy a lively discussion, I hope not to > become the subject of the harsh criticism that has been imposed upon > others within the group. > > Thanks, pete

December 30, 2003

I don't see how you can say my protocol does not work and I am making false claims. I still believe I am going to clear the virus with or without any one particular product. As I have stated MANY times before, I have a large number of ALTERNATIVE therapies that I am using, not all of them are products which can be swallowed. My protocol is much more than just products. It includes acupuncture, energy healing therapies, yoga, visualization, guided imagery, crystals, positive attitude, etc, etc. These concepts aren't even worth discussing with you, as it will cause a big to-do, and I'm not into it. I believe you are right that the main factor is how one's body "handles" the disease. Although I have abused alcohol in my life, I also have practiced yoga and other techniques which have strengthened my body over the many many years of consistent practice. I have been basically vegetarian since age 11 (when I started practicing yoga/meditation), have always maintained a low body weight, and have always eaten in a very healthy way. But I know for a fact that my protocol(s) have helped because of my steady drop in viral load and the normalization of my liver enzymes, which did take at least a year on herbal meds. So I would very much say that my protocol DID and IS working. I have compassion for those who do not handle the virus well. I don't know what to tell them, I can only go by own experience. We all struggle in one way or another. Happy New Year to all. Blessings, Satya

Re: [ ] Re: Colloidal silver

>Here's my Question---Bob, why do you and andy seem to be so against >alternatives, and yet you use them? (Not trying to be fresh--am sincerely >curious)--If you even have to ask this question you truely haven't been paying attention! Alternatives is a very large term and to paint everything in the same light creates a oversimplification of the issues. What I, and I believe Andy, objects to is the many unfounded claims that are put forth for the so called alternatives. For example you and others are/ere a great believer in microhydrin. This is such a ridiculous product and yet you and others fall for it. I have in the past worked with hydrides....they are so chemically reactive it would be akin to using lye for an antacid. The whole concept is bogus and all that is sold is false hope....that I object too. You Satya have bought into this false hope and I am sure on some level you are extremely upset that it didn't work. In the case of milk thistle the research has been atrocious and the best review of the literature indicates that with all the studies that have been done we still don't know how effective this actually is for a person to take. But there is some indication and rational hypothesis on why it might work and how it might do this. This is something that microhydirn (used as an extreme example) does not have going for it. In your case Satya you have made many claims about how you are going to clear the virus with your natural protocol....I consider this as spreading false hope and unrealistic expectations and as you well know it is not true. These are but a few of the objections that are made for alternatives and why Andy and I speak up when unrealistic and unsubstantiated claims are made for the so called alternatives.Often the advocates of alternatives will believe anything...one only has to peruse the internet for a few moments to discover that this is true. Their guts don't know anything about biochemistry, chemistry, and physics and will often wish to believe anything is plausible. One must remember that just because something sounds plausible doesn't mean that it actually occurs and if one loses sight of this reality they set themselves up for all sorts of heartbreak when the miracles don't show up. I can't tell you how many deadends I have hit in my own research when plausible hypothesis are demonstrated not to be reality. As a general question for anyone to consider how many supplements have you taken and felt that this particular substance was doing great things only to have the feeling fade in a short time and so you switch to something else and so on and so forth.I certainly realize that many drugs we use have natural sources as their origin. This is not to say that all herbs or plants contain beneficial substances. A cry often goes up of use for thousands of years and therefore these substances must be good. This is another ridiculous stance which blinds one to reality. Take aristocholic acid it has been used for over 5 thousand years and it wasn't discovered until a few years ago that this is a very efficient compound for creating kidney cancer. A person must be able to keep reality in sight in evaluating these substances and when contrary evidence is ignored the blinders are on and the belief becomes a religion...These are a few of my objections and if you still aren't clear on my stance then ask and I'll post more.>if you are saying that they may be good for those not yet progressed in >the disease, why do you(andy) seem to bash them so often, when I myself, >as you know, have low fibrosis and am one of those who believes they can >stave off progression by the use of alternatives (supps)--it seems you are >saying that alternatives are a good, safe way to go for those yet >unprogressed in the disease.....or am I missing it?In your case Satya, as with many with this disease, your lack of fibrosis is more how your body handles the disease despite what you do or what you take. As you have mentioned in the past you have not taken the best care of yourself and abused alcohol. Despite this your liver has not progressed and many are in your boat and I for one am grateful you don't have to suffer the progression of the liver disease. Your lack of fibrosis is an indication of how your own immune system handles the virus also indicated with your low viral load. It is very likely that this will remain the case if you never took another supplement in your life and attributing it to the supplements would perhaps be misleading. For those of us who do not handle the virus as well progression of fibrosis is a very real and ongoing event. WE do not have the options you do with our health. Ours is the case where false hope and unfounded belief in what supplements may actually do may cause problems for a individual by delaying the initiation of proven therapies. This is one of the reasons the microhydrin topic causes such outrage.again if you are still unclear on the concept please ask and I'll try to clarify the subject for you.regards,BobK

December 30, 2003

I have never had even one medical success in my whole life. Never asked for one. Never needed one. Have never been in the hospital since I was born in one (not my choice obviously. I was lucky to get out alive, I imagine. I believe I picked up a case of roseola there, giving me my first virus, as a newborn infant, to deal with). My health is completely my own responsibility. I am healthy because I take care of myself well. Always have. Always will. Blessings, Satya

Re: [ ] Re: Colloidal silver

Again, what's wrong with the placebo effect?. If something works, however it does, why not use it?How much are you willing to pay to fool yourself I guess would be a better question. Often with the short-lived placebo effect what follows is empty wallets and crushed hope that is not a very good deal.

We don't know exactly how electricity works, but when you flip a light switch you get light! ....While you may not know how electricity works it is a very well understood process based in physics and chemistry.

I've never personally witnessed any medical miracles, yet I have seen personally many medical mistakes and tragediesDo you consider the medical successes in your equation? Why would you attribute the increase in lifespan (30 year increase) over the last 100 years too? How about the increase in survival of breastcancer patients in the last ten years? While I too have seen serious medical errors made they are the fault of the practitioner (who is human) and not the fault of the science and/or evidence for a specific therapy. This is one of the problems I have with alternative believers is their preferentially focusing on one aspect while ignoring the other aspects of a topic.regards,BobK

July 27, 2004

> Has anyone heard of using Colloidal Silver for candidiasis? My

> chiropractor recommended it but I have never heard of it for yeast

> infections.

>

> Thanks!

Yes, but delivering it and making it stick takes a bit of practice.

It works internally too.

I have 40 PPM on my website pretty cheap.

Duncan Crow

July 28, 2004

Hi Rick,

How do you do the liver flushes? I have a terrible liver so I have been told.

I am using Oil of Oregeno & I don't feel it's doing much at all.

Thanks

Re: Colloidal Silver

Hi Lori

For 4 months I took one tablespoon of colloidal silver three times a

day along with putting it in my eyes, my ears,and spraying some in my

throat and on the rash on my chest. At the same time,I also used msm

and oil of oregano.

Initially they help quite a bit, but after 2 months the benefits

subsided, and I gave up after 4 months of it.

Nothing I've used has done the trick up until I started doing the

liver flushes,cleanses and eating for my body type.

I'm doing the same things that johng is doing.

Rick

July 29, 2004

There are many different ways to do a liver flush. The one I do is one

suggested by s Moritz. You can check out his books here.

http://ener-chi.com/books.htm

There are also flushes listed here...

http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/default.asp

There are forums on curezone that might interest you,including the

liver flush and the Ask s forums.

So far I've gotten out around 18,000 stones as well as candida, liver

flukes and things that I haven't been able to identify. Along with

getting all that crap out, I'm getting my health back. I can now eat

things that I couldn't even touch prior to the cleansing.

Rick

> Hi Rick,

>

> How do you do the liver flushes? I have a terrible liver so I have

been told.

>

> I am using Oil of Oregeno & I don't feel it's doing much at all.

>

> Thanks

>

July 29, 2004

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the info. I just bought the Liver Flush PDF. I'm sure it will help.

It's trying to connect as we speak so I can see it LOL

Take care

Re: Colloidal Silver

There are many different ways to do a liver flush. The one I do is one

suggested by s Moritz. You can check out his books here.

http://ener-chi.com/books.htm

There are also flushes listed here...

http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/default.asp

There are forums on curezone that might interest you,including the

liver flush and the Ask s forums.

So far I've gotten out around 18,000 stones as well as candida, liver

flukes and things that I haven't been able to identify. Along with

getting all that crap out, I'm getting my health back. I can now eat

things that I couldn't even touch prior to the cleansing.

Rick

> Hi Rick,

>

> How do you do the liver flushes? I have a terrible liver so I have

been told.

>

> I am using Oil of Oregeno & I don't feel it's doing much at all.

>

> Thanks

>

July 29, 2004

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:45:54 -0000

From: " slickrick605 " <slickrick605@...>

There are many different ways to do a liver flush. The one I do is one

suggested by s Moritz. So far I've gotten out around 18,000 stones as

well as candida, liver

flukes and things that I haven't been able to identify. Along with

getting all that crap out, I'm getting my health back. I can now eat

things that I couldn't even touch prior to the cleansing.

Let me add a big AMEN to what Rick said. Rick is the one that got me

started on the liver flush and I'm so glad he did! I do s Moritz's

version too. I've gotten out probably a little over two thousand stones in

five flushes so far and I didn't really start feeling better until I started

the flushes. Right after the first one, I noticed marked improvement. Thank

you, Rick!!!!

Sherry (from Oregon)

July 30, 2004

Great : )

Is that in the book I just ordered?

I had real problems getting the book & with their site etc., but they are

sending it to me on CD.

Have a great day !

: )

Re: Colloidal Silver

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:45:54 -0000

From: " slickrick605 " <slickrick605@...>

There are many different ways to do a liver flush. The one I do is one

suggested by s Moritz. So far I've gotten out around 18,000 stones as

well as candida, liver

flukes and things that I haven't been able to identify. Along with

getting all that crap out, I'm getting my health back. I can now eat

things that I couldn't even touch prior to the cleansing.

Let me add a big AMEN to what Rick said. Rick is the one that got me

started on the liver flush and I'm so glad he did! I do s Moritz's

version too. I've gotten out probably a little over two thousand stones in

five flushes so far and I didn't really start feeling better until I started

the flushes. Right after the first one, I noticed marked improvement. Thank

you, Rick!!!!

Sherry (from Oregon)

August 2, 2004

,

Probably a lot of us on this group have made and used CS, but the best place

to get information would be in the CS group, where it is their primary

focus.

I keep my CS in a large beer bottle, with a snap on, plastic cap that you

can find in most dime stores.

You should use a Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) meter, so you can determine

the parts per million that you are making. I got mine on eBay for around

$20. To determine the particle size requires a lab test, which is expensive.

Dick

Colloidal Silver

> I'm making my own colloidal silver and realize it has to be stored

> in a dark bottle. The only cofusing thing is I've heard that it

> can be refrigerated and alternatively (Bob Beck) should not be kept

> in the refrigerator. Any comments from people that have tried it one

> way over the other, especially people that may have tried it both

> ways. Does is make that great a difference? It seems as though I'd

> drink it more often if it were cold.

> Holding my breath in Florida!

>

> The group's main page has a menu to the left, with photos of Godzilla

devices and other things useful in research. These are free to members.

Membership is free, but you agree to be on your own, not take our freedom of

speech as medical advice. We are not doctors! Repeat, we are ordinary lay

people, not experts, not healthy officials, or geniuses of any kind. The

information on this group is not intended as medical advice. Most group

members are NOT doctors or health authorities. Please do not request

medical advice, lest anyone get into trouble out of human compassion. There

are huge fines and issues currently involved with unlicensed medical advice.

The group is only here to share experiences according to the theme of the

group, namely testing if electrical stimulus might inactivate microbes, as

it seems to have done in the Einstein Medical College labs. We are

interested in your results, but cannot say anything about repeatability, or

whether this might have medical benefits. Thanks, for your understanding,

good luck researching. --bG

>

August 2, 2004

Hi joeljrey,

You can always add it to some cold drink jsut before you drink it.

there are some people that mix it with Gatorade.

Take care,

V mailto:vman@...

Monday, August 2, 2004, 3:44:22 AM, you wrote:

> I'm making my own colloidal silver and realize it has to be stored

> in a dark bottle. The only cofusing thing is I've heard that it

> can be refrigerated and alternatively (Bob Beck) should not be kept

> in the refrigerator. Any comments from people that have tried it one

> way over the other, especially people that may have tried it both

> ways. Does is make that great a difference? It seems as though I'd

> drink it more often if it were cold.

> Holding my breath in Florida!

>

> The group's main page has a menu to the left, with photos of

> Godzilla devices and other things useful in research. These are

> free to members. Membership is free, but you agree to be on your

> own, not take our freedom of speech as medical advice. We are not

> doctors! Repeat, we are ordinary lay people, not experts, not

> healthy officials, or geniuses of any kind. The information on this

> group is not intended as medical advice. Most group members are NOT

> doctors or health authorities. Please do not request medical

> advice, lest anyone get into trouble out of human compassion. There

> are huge fines and issues currently involved with unlicensed medical

> advice. The group is only here to share experiences according to

> the theme of the group, namely testing if electrical stimulus might

> inactivate microbes, as it seems to have done in the Einstein

> Medical College labs. We are interested in your results, but cannot

> say anything about repeatability, or whether this might have medical

> benefits. Thanks, for your understanding, good luck researching.

> --bG

>

August 2, 2004