Re: DIM Discussion

[Guest guest]

I think that there's a lot of " placebo effect " going on here.

Bioresponse manufactures the same product for all of these " brand

names " to sell. So whether it's PhytoPharmica or whoever, as long as

it's being manufactured by Bioresponse, the DIM element is the same

and is the bioavailable version.

Now if - in your mind - you are convinved that version " A " works and

that version " B " (beause it's cheaper or not the " original brand " or

whatever) doesn't work, then it's not going to.

That why sugar pills (placebo pills) often cure as many people of

depression or whatever disorder is being tested as does the drug

that's being tested.

And of course PhytoPharmica is going to tell you a different story...

they want you to buy their brand. Thepeople to talk to are the ones at

BioResponse as they are making it for all of those various companies.

Some at different strength levels, but otherwise just depends on what

label they end up slapping on the bottle....

Or BioResponse is " ripping off " those other companies (by supplying

non-bioavailable DIM!) in which case I'm sure that those other

companies would like to know about that!

Larry

> > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that if men

> > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard

> about

> > > it.

> > >

> > > Where is he located? I would call.

> > >

> > >

> > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the

> > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock

> > > > > down their E and lose their libido?

> > > >

> > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood tests, we

> > > can't

> > > > say for sure what's going on.

> > > >

> > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but couldn't find

> > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large doses.

> > > >

> > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one of

> the

> > > young

> > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of

> > > Indolplex.

> > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say.

> > > >

> > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their

> > > products? How

> > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep this

> > > > information to themselves for whatever reason.

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, similar items found in most DIM products. In fact, I think that

some of those are part of the BioResponse Dim that are part of what

enhances its availability.

I note that PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM refers to itself as

double strength... but doesn't explain " how " . Unless they are

comparing themselves to a similar product that only has 60mg of DIM

when they have 120mg of DIM.

Larry

> > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that if men

> > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard

> about

> > > it.

> > >

> > > Where is he located? I would call.

> > >

> > >

> > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the

> > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock

> > > > > down their E and lose their libido?

> > > >

> > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood tests, we

> > > can't

> > > > say for sure what's going on.

> > > >

> > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but couldn't find

> > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large doses.

> > > >

> > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one of

> the

> > > young

> > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of

> > > Indolplex.

> > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say.

> > > >

> > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their

> > > products? How

> > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep this

> > > > information to themselves for whatever reason.

[Guest guest]

Larry,

I think you are right. The ingredients listed are not anything extra.

These are what is contained in BioResponse DIM.

> > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that if

men

> > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard

> > about

> > > > it.

> > > >

> > > > Where is he located? I would call.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the

> > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock

> > > > > > down their E and lose their libido?

> > > > >

> > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood

tests, we

> > > > can't

> > > > > say for sure what's going on.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but couldn't

find

> > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large

doses.

> > > > >

> > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one

of

> > the

> > > > young

> > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of

> > > > Indolplex.

> > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their

> > > > products? How

> > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep

this

> > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason.

[Guest guest]

Well, I'm going to check it out. I called and ordered 3 bottles. I

notice it is 150mg which makes it a wee bit stronger than the 120mg

Indoplex DIM. Since I get my blood work done every week -- makes

sense that I be the test pilot to try it out. I will let you know

what the verdict is after I receive it and take it for a couple of

weeks.

Now, I've got to go see my doctor and check out what this week's

test results show.

Catch you later....

Gene

> > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that

if men

> > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard

> > about

> > > > it.

> > > >

> > > > Where is he located? I would call.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the

> > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock

> > > > > > down their E and lose their libido?

> > > > >

> > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood

tests, we

> > > > can't

> > > > > say for sure what's going on.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but

couldn't find

> > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large

doses.

> > > > >

> > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one

of

> > the

> > > > young

> > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of

> > > > Indolplex.

> > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their

> > > > products? How

> > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep

this

> > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> >

[Guest guest]

The frist I ever head of Bioresponse making Indolplex/DIM was today said

he talked to them and they told him this tell me if I am wrong " once I though I

was but I was mistaken. :-) "

So lets leave it there unless Z has some input. I can't realy say.

Phil

lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote:

I think that there's a lot of " placebo effect " going on here.

Bioresponse manufactures the same product for all of these " brand

names " to sell. So whether it's PhytoPharmica or whoever, as long as

it's being manufactured by Bioresponse, the DIM element is the same

and is the bioavailable version.

Now if - in your mind - you are convinved that version " A " works and

that version " B " (beause it's cheaper or not the " original brand " or

whatever) doesn't work, then it's not going to.

That why sugar pills (placebo pills) often cure as many people of

depression or whatever disorder is being tested as does the drug

that's being tested.

And of course PhytoPharmica is going to tell you a different story...

they want you to buy their brand. Thepeople to talk to are the ones at

BioResponse as they are making it for all of those various companies.

Some at different strength levels, but otherwise just depends on what

label they end up slapping on the bottle....

Or BioResponse is " ripping off " those other companies (by supplying

non-bioavailable DIM!) in which case I'm sure that those other

companies would like to know about that!

Larry

> > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that if men

> > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard

> about

> > > it.

> > >

> > > Where is he located? I would call.

> > >

> > >

> > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the

> > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock

> > > > > down their E and lose their libido?

> > > >

> > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood tests, we

> > > can't

> > > > say for sure what's going on.

> > > >

> > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but couldn't find

> > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large doses.

> > > >

> > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one of

> the

> > > young

> > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of

> > > Indolplex.

> > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say.

> > > >

> > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their

> > > products? How

> > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep this

> > > > information to themselves for whatever reason.

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

This is a copy and paste from their website. It says that they sell

it to them. Has anyone ever done any blood tests taking the different

products, which conclusively proves this?

A. Zeligs, M.D., is the founder of BioResponse Nutrients and

the inventor of bioavailable Diindolylmethane. This highly-

absorbable, patented, and clinically-tested form of Diindolylmethane

is sold both under the BioResponse brand name and under license

through leading distributors of nutritional supplements.

In its pure, crystalline state, Diindolymethane is poorly absorbed by

the human body. Our bioavailable Diindolymethane is the only

patented, absorption-enhanced formulation for Diindolylmethane. For

maximum absorption, be sure to choose a Diindolylmethane supplement

that lists " BioResponse " on the label.

> > Thanks for the http://www.bio-response.com/ link. I called them up

> > and asked them about the DIM from Puritan's Pride, Nature's Way,

and

> > Phytopharmica Indolplex. They told me that these products all use

> > EXACTLY the same DIM which they manufacture and supply to them.

>

> That's not my understanding.

>

> Zeligs owns the Indolplex patent and trademark. He licenses the

rights

> to various manufacturers to manufacture the product. Each

manufacturer

> makes their own product.

>

> Anyone who is knowledgeable about supplements knows that quality

> standards vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Unlike

> pharmaceuticals, these products are not regulated for quality.

Studies

> have shown that about half of the supplements on the market don't

> contain anything near what the label says they do. That would

explain

> the variations by product.

>

> Also, the Nature's Way product contains other ingredients. It's

not the

> same product.

[Guest guest]

I rest my case.

Phil

Z <davidzxxx2004@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the http://www.bio-response.com/ link. I called them up

> and asked them about the DIM from Puritan's Pride, Nature's Way, and

> Phytopharmica Indolplex. They told me that these products all use

> EXACTLY the same DIM which they manufacture and supply to them.

That's not my understanding.

Zeligs owns the Indolplex patent and trademark. He licenses the rights

to various manufacturers to manufacture the product. Each manufacturer

makes their own product.

Anyone who is knowledgeable about supplements knows that quality

standards vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Unlike

pharmaceuticals, these products are not regulated for quality. Studies

have shown that about half of the supplements on the market don't

contain anything near what the label says they do. That would explain

the variations by product.

Also, the Nature's Way product contains other ingredients. It's not the

same product.

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I object your honor. LOL

> > Thanks for the http://www.bio-response.com/ link. I called them up

> > and asked them about the DIM from Puritan's Pride, Nature's Way,

and

> > Phytopharmica Indolplex. They told me that these products all use

> > EXACTLY the same DIM which they manufacture and supply to them.

>

> That's not my understanding.

>

> Zeligs owns the Indolplex patent and trademark. He licenses the

rights

> to various manufacturers to manufacture the product. Each

manufacturer

> makes their own product.

>

> Anyone who is knowledgeable about supplements knows that quality

> standards vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Unlike

> pharmaceuticals, these products are not regulated for quality.

Studies

> have shown that about half of the supplements on the market don't

> contain anything near what the label says they do. That would

explain

> the variations by product.

>

> Also, the Nature's Way product contains other ingredients. It's

not the

> same product.

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Yes I did a lot of them trying different things like DIM and Evesta nothing

worked then I got my Dr. to try Arimidex and this got me down but to stay down

it makes me go to low I was taking 1/4 of a one mg. pill every 5 days and was

going to low. Then Z told me the name of the DIM he uses and I got it and

low and behold it worked.

Phil

invest99_2000 <no_reply > wrote:

This is a copy and paste from their website. It says that they sell

it to them. Has anyone ever done any blood tests taking the different

products, which conclusively proves this?

A. Zeligs, M.D., is the founder of BioResponse Nutrients and

the inventor of bioavailable Diindolylmethane. This highly-

absorbable, patented, and clinically-tested form of Diindolylmethane

is sold both under the BioResponse brand name and under license

through leading distributors of nutritional supplements.

In its pure, crystalline state, Diindolymethane is poorly absorbed by

the human body. Our bioavailable Diindolymethane is the only

patented, absorption-enhanced formulation for Diindolylmethane. For

maximum absorption, be sure to choose a Diindolylmethane supplement

that lists " BioResponse " on the label.

> > Thanks for the http://www.bio-response.com/ link. I called them up

> > and asked them about the DIM from Puritan's Pride, Nature's Way,

and

> > Phytopharmica Indolplex. They told me that these products all use

> > EXACTLY the same DIM which they manufacture and supply to them.

>

> That's not my understanding.

>

> Zeligs owns the Indolplex patent and trademark. He licenses the

rights

> to various manufacturers to manufacture the product. Each

manufacturer

> makes their own product.

>

> Anyone who is knowledgeable about supplements knows that quality

> standards vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Unlike

> pharmaceuticals, these products are not regulated for quality.

Studies

> have shown that about half of the supplements on the market don't

> contain anything near what the label says they do. That would

explain

> the variations by product.

>

> Also, the Nature's Way product contains other ingredients. It's

not the

> same product.

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

> This is a copy and paste from their website.

> It says that they sell it to them.

That's not the way I read it.

> This highly absorbable, patented, and clinically-tested form

> of Diindolylmethane is sold both under the BioResponse

> brand name and under license through leading distributors

> of nutritional supplements.

It does NOT say they sell it to them. It says that " this...form of DIM "

is sold under the BioResponse brand name and under *license*... " Do you

undersatnd what a license is?

> Has anyone ever done any blood tests taking the different

> products, which conclusively proves this?

That's a good question. Phil's experience is pretty conclusive to me.

Phil had no response to Nature's Way DIM. Then he went on PhytoPharmica

and had spontaneous rock hard boners. In fact, he didn't even correlate

the two until I mentioned it to him. Phil was pretty skeptical until

that happened. This story is documented in this group, if you can

access the archives.

Also, when I participated in the alt.support.impotence newsgroup there

were a few stories similar to Phil's. But, no doubt, blood tests would

be the best measure of all.

I know you'd like to find a cheaper product that does the same job. But

it's pretty clear to me that Nature's Way is cheaper, but doesn't do the

job.

By all means, go for it. Give it a try and let us know what your

results are. Unfortunately what's happened in the past is that people

try the inferior product and it doesn't work and then they say that DIM

doesn't work.

[Guest guest]

,

I take " under licence " to mean that they are licenced to use the

BioResponse name. I'm not sure it means they manufacture it.

I place a lot more weight on yours and Phil's personal experiences. I

just am trying to find a logical reason as to why something that is

supposed to be exactly the same, has different results.

A Dr. Nick Delgado says that he recommends that regular DIM be taken

with something oily such as EFA's to help absorption. He claims a

dosage of 300mg is effective for him and his patients. You can read

more about it here:

http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/showthread.php?

s= & threadid=7855 & highlight=dim+absorption

I have just never been a big fan of monopolies. I would like to think

that there are always alternatives.

> > This is a copy and paste from their website.

> > It says that they sell it to them.

>

> That's not the way I read it.

>

> > This highly absorbable, patented, and clinically-tested form

> > of Diindolylmethane is sold both under the BioResponse

> > brand name and under license through leading distributors

> > of nutritional supplements.

>

> It does NOT say they sell it to them. It says that " this...form of

DIM "

> is sold under the BioResponse brand name and under *license*... "

Do you

> undersatnd what a license is?

>

> > Has anyone ever done any blood tests taking the different

> > products, which conclusively proves this?

>

> That's a good question. Phil's experience is pretty conclusive to

me.

> Phil had no response to Nature's Way DIM. Then he went on

PhytoPharmica

> and had spontaneous rock hard boners. In fact, he didn't even

correlate

> the two until I mentioned it to him. Phil was pretty skeptical

until

> that happened. This story is documented in this group, if you can

> access the archives.

>

> Also, when I participated in the alt.support.impotence newsgroup

there

> were a few stories similar to Phil's. But, no doubt, blood tests

would

> be the best measure of all.

>

> I know you'd like to find a cheaper product that does the same

job. But

> it's pretty clear to me that Nature's Way is cheaper, but doesn't

do the

> job.

>

> By all means, go for it. Give it a try and let us know what your

> results are. Unfortunately what's happened in the past is that

people

> try the inferior product and it doesn't work and then they say that

DIM

> doesn't work.

[Guest guest]

> > >

> , you are saying that anybody who is taking the indoplex bio

> DIM even those who are not on T will knock down their E and lose

> their libido?

>

> Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but couldn't find there

> whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large doses.

>

> It makes no sense to me, and just trying to learn why.

>

> Greg

Hi Greg,

Both among bodybuilding acquaintances and in the earlier days on the

message board there were some people that took a somewhat adolescent

view about their drug use. Because testosterone was a " male " hormone

and estradiol was a " female " hormone, they decided that an unlimited

amount of testosterone (or " free " testosterone, or bioavailable t,

depending upon which particular burr was under their saddle) was

necessarily good and that any estradiol was bad or at best an

annoyance. So the result was men on high doses of test taking either

arimidex or femara. They would use the full dose of 1mg of

arimidex/day. Invariably (and even after having been warned) the

overdose destroyed their libido till they went off it. I don't

necessarily know why you need some estradiol for libido but then I

don't precisely what causes or drives libido in the first place.

If the product & Phil use is effective at lowering estradiol, I

think it is entirely possible that one's libido could suffer. As for

why some are able to use high DIM doses, they might have relatively

high levels of estradiol to begin with or they are geared up. Or they

could be using a product that is ineffective.

Regardless of which product you use, I would strongly encourage you to

get blood test so you know the product is doing what it is supposed to do.

Brad

[Guest guest]

RE: BioResponse and IndoPlex

Okay, I e-mailed BioResponse and asked directly what was going on with

their " bioavailable DIM " ....

Here's a part of the resposne that I got back:

QUOTE:

BioResponse LLC is the " raw material manufacturer " with Dr. Zeligs,

the patent holder on the delivery system for absorbable formulation.

We license our trademarks including the names Indolplex , BioDIM, DIM,

DIM-Plus, DIM Pro to different companies. They sell the identical

product. You can tell on bottles if it is our patented formulation if

it says, " licensed by BioResponse LLC. "

The only difference might be in dosage. Tyler/Enzymatic Therapy for

instance sells Indolplex with capsules that each contains 15 mgs of

the active ingredient (contained in 60mg formulated product). The

patented formulation contains a minimum of 25% of the active in the

formulation.... We (also) sell under our own brand name of

" BioResponse DIM " . Individuals that need just enough for hormone

balancing are fine with the lower amounts; those that need to take

more find ours to be more economical. We have an informational

website www.dimfaq.com as well as our home page www.bioresponse.com

Zeligs, M.D. has published various articles on the subject

that you might find interesting. Hopefully that answers the questions

you may have about the various " names " of our BioResponse DIM.

END QUOTE

The e-mail didn't quite answer all of the questions that I asked, but

it's clear that it's the same " core ingredient " in the various brands,

they just might be at different strength levels (i.e., product A has

60 mg of BioResponse DIM while product B has 100 mg, etc., etc... but

it's still the same primary ingredient of BioResponse's manufactured

" bioavailable DIM " .....

Larry

> > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that

> if men

> > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard

> > > about

> > > > > it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Where is he located? I would call.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the

> > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock

> > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood

> tests, we

> > > > > can't

> > > > > > say for sure what's going on.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but

> couldn't find

> > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large

> doses.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one

> of

> > > the

> > > > > young

> > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of

> > > > > Indolplex.

> > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their

> > > > > products? How

> > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep

> this

> > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dave,

See my prior post. It's clear that BioResposne manufactures the

" bioavailable DIM " that Dr. Zeligs patented. They appeared to have

initially marketed as the IndolPlex brand through PhytoPharmica. I

think that's where the breakdown in understanding has occurred. When

it was just the IndoPlex brand, others were selling DIM and claiming

it also was " bioavailable " (for example Source Naturals marketed a DIM

product that contained " bioperine " for supposed " enhanced

bioavailability).

Also, most brands don't actually manufacture their own supplements.

They obtain them from wholesale manufacturers who manufacture to

customers specifications and then the appropriate brand name label is

slapped on it!

But since then BioResponse has then gone on to manufacture the same

formula for several other brands. That has been made clear now in a

couple telephone calls and an e-mail response.

IndolPlex might be better than another brand that is selling the same

BioResponse manufactured DIM only because it has more of the DIM

(let's say 120 mg versus 60 mg). But if you're cutting a pill in

half, why not just take the (probably cheaper) 60 mg version (as long

as it is the trademarked BioResponse DIM)?

As always, just my humble opinion.

Larry

> > Thanks for the http://www.bio-response.com/ link. I called them up

> > and asked them about the DIM from Puritan's Pride, Nature's Way, and

> > Phytopharmica Indolplex. They told me that these products all use

> > EXACTLY the same DIM which they manufacture and supply to them.

>

> That's not my understanding.

>

> Zeligs owns the Indolplex patent and trademark. He licenses the rights

> to various manufacturers to manufacture the product. Each manufacturer

> makes their own product.

>

> Anyone who is knowledgeable about supplements knows that quality

> standards vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Unlike

> pharmaceuticals, these products are not regulated for quality. Studies

> have shown that about half of the supplements on the market don't

> contain anything near what the label says they do. That would explain

> the variations by product.

>

> Also, the Nature's Way product contains other ingredients. It's not the

> same product.

[Guest guest]

My BioResponse DIM should arrive on Monday. I'll start taking it and will

report my findings after the first week and second week of my test trial. I've

still got PLENTY of Indoplex DIM (last time we ordered it, we got either 10 or a

dozen bottles) so I'm not worried about being without any DIM.

Your Gynny-Pig,

Gene

lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote:

RE: BioResponse and IndoPlex

Okay, I e-mailed BioResponse and asked directly what was going on with

their " bioavailable DIM " ....

Here's a part of the resposne that I got back:

QUOTE:

BioResponse LLC is the " raw material manufacturer " with Dr. Zeligs,

the patent holder on the delivery system for absorbable formulation.

We license our trademarks including the names Indolplex , BioDIM, DIM,

DIM-Plus, DIM Pro to different companies. They sell the identical

product. You can tell on bottles if it is our patented formulation if

it says, " licensed by BioResponse LLC. "

The only difference might be in dosage. Tyler/Enzymatic Therapy for

instance sells Indolplex with capsules that each contains 15 mgs of

the active ingredient (contained in 60mg formulated product). The

patented formulation contains a minimum of 25% of the active in the

formulation.... We (also) sell under our own brand name of

" BioResponse DIM " . Individuals that need just enough for hormone

balancing are fine with the lower amounts; those that need to take

more find ours to be more economical. We have an informational

website www.dimfaq.com as well as our home page www.bioresponse.com

Zeligs, M.D. has published various articles on the subject

that you might find interesting. Hopefully that answers the questions

you may have about the various " names " of our BioResponse DIM.

END QUOTE

The e-mail didn't quite answer all of the questions that I asked, but

it's clear that it's the same " core ingredient " in the various brands,

they just might be at different strength levels (i.e., product A has

60 mg of BioResponse DIM while product B has 100 mg, etc., etc... but

it's still the same primary ingredient of BioResponse's manufactured

" bioavailable DIM " .....

Larry

> > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that

> if men

> > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard

> > > about

> > > > > it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Where is he located? I would call.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the

> > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock

> > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood

> tests, we

> > > > > can't

> > > > > > say for sure what's going on.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but

> couldn't find

> > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large

> doses.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one

> of

> > > the

> > > > > young

> > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of

> > > > > Indolplex.

> > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their

> > > > > products? How

> > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep

> this

> > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > >

[Guest guest]

They've got an " 800 number " that you can call and ask them for

yourself.... they must be wondering what's going on, because I also

called them (and they seemed perplexed at the calls they were

getting... LOL).

I advised them that I was the one who had sent the e-mail and wanted

to make sure that the e-mail response was as I understood it. And,

yes, they were adamant... they DO manufacture the same exact

" bioavailable DIM " for those other brands that they do for IndolPlex.

They emphasized that different brands have different strength levels.

Brand A and brand B might both have 100mg while brand C has 60 mg and

brand D has 120 mg... but it is the SAME potency (otherwise)

" bioavailable DIM " manufactured under under U.S. patent 6,086,915. of

Dr. Zeligs...

It sounded like they were starting to get irate that people wouldn't

believe them... but PLEASE call, I ain't making this up!

As to Phil's experience, that sure isn't a very scientific production.

One or two or ten men's ancedotal experience is just that. Aside from

the fact that his experience could have been from a number of things

(testosterone receptors finally getting used to the increased T

levels, etc., etc.), it could have boiled down to this...

First of all, when was Phil taking Nature's Way DIM? Was it BEFORE

they got an agreement with BioResponse to sell the BioResponse DIM

version? If so, then, yes, Phil WAS taking an inferior product. He was

taking a DIM version that wasn't bioavailable.

OR....

Let's say Phil was taking a Nature's Way DIM (I think it's called DIM

Plus) that DID contain the bioavailable BioResponse DIM. But let's say

that the Nature's Way DIM Plus only had 60 mg of bioavailable DIM per

tablet. And he took it for a month. And " didn't feel shit so this must

not be working " . And then you take the IndolPlex brand that has 120 mg

per tablet... or twice as much. And after a couple of weeks suddenly

there's a difference. Well, with twice the dosage there should be a

difference!

OR....

Natural supplements simply don't work immediately. At the very least

they generally take days to work... sometimes weeks or even longer.

We see that with the T that we take (which is basically a natural

substance as compared to an artificial steroid. Yes, it is

" synthesized " from soy or wild yams but is moleculary identical so it

is " natural " . And taking it as a " booster " almost never results in

immediate results. It just doesn't work that way. In fact, for a lot

of guys the " boosting effect " takes longer than days, often takes

weeks or even months for the T to start making a noticeable

difference, no?

Anyway, for all we know, the Nature's Way version was " chipping away "

at the E2 levels and the InolPlex version came along about the time

the dramatic drop happened... and ended up getting all of the credit!

OR...

There's always the previously mentioned placebo effect... If I

absolutely believe that brand A is better than brand B - even though

they might be exactly the same down to the smallest molecule and the

same strength level down to the micromillimeter, well, I'll simply do

better on brand A.

IMHO there's changes that happen with products and processes that

sometimes simply aren't kept up with. Calling brands (that have been

researched to contain the same exact substance) " inferior " is not

called for under those circumstances.

QUOTE: BioResponse LLC is the " raw material manufacturer " with Dr.

Zeligs, the patent holder on the delivery system for absorbable

formulation. We license our trademarks including the names Indolplex ,

BioDIM, DIM, DIM-Plus, DIM Pro to different companies. They sell the

identical product. You can tell on bottles if it is our patented

formulation if it says, " licensed by BioResponse LLC. "

END QUOTE

Emphasis... THEY SELL THE IDENTICAL PRODUCT

Larry

> > This is a copy and paste from their website.

> > It says that they sell it to them.

>

> That's not the way I read it.

>

> > This highly absorbable, patented, and clinically-tested form

> > of Diindolylmethane is sold both under the BioResponse

> > brand name and under license through leading distributors

> > of nutritional supplements.

>

> It does NOT say they sell it to them. It says that " this...form of DIM "

> is sold under the BioResponse brand name and under *license*... " Do you

> undersatnd what a license is?

>

> > Has anyone ever done any blood tests taking the different

> > products, which conclusively proves this?

>

> That's a good question. Phil's experience is pretty conclusive to me.

> Phil had no response to Nature's Way DIM. Then he went on PhytoPharmica

> and had spontaneous rock hard boners. In fact, he didn't even correlate

> the two until I mentioned it to him. Phil was pretty skeptical until

> that happened. This story is documented in this group, if you can

> access the archives.

>

> Also, when I participated in the alt.support.impotence newsgroup there

> were a few stories similar to Phil's. But, no doubt, blood tests would

> be the best measure of all.

>

> I know you'd like to find a cheaper product that does the same job. But

> it's pretty clear to me that Nature's Way is cheaper, but doesn't do the

> job.

>

> By all means, go for it. Give it a try and let us know what your

> results are. Unfortunately what's happened in the past is that people

> try the inferior product and it doesn't work and then they say that DIM

> doesn't work.

[Guest guest]

Larry,

Thanks for doing the extra leg work to clarify this.

> > > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think

that

> > if men

> > > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have

heard

> > > > about

> > > > > > it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Where is he located? I would call.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the

> > > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will

knock

> > > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood

> > tests, we

> > > > > > can't

> > > > > > > say for sure what's going on.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but

> > couldn't find

> > > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large

> > doses.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to

one

> > of

> > > > the

> > > > > > young

> > > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages

of

> > > > > > Indolplex.

> > > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for

their

> > > > > > products? How

> > > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to

keep

> > this

> > > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Gene,

Thanks for being the Gynny-Pig. LOL

Regards,

> > > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think

that

> > if men

> > > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have

heard

> > > > about

> > > > > > it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Where is he located? I would call.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the

> > > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will

knock

> > > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood

> > tests, we

> > > > > > can't

> > > > > > > say for sure what's going on.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but

> > couldn't find

> > > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large

> > doses.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to

one

> > of

> > > > the

> > > > > > young

> > > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages

of

> > > > > > Indolplex.

> > > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for

their

> > > > > > products? How

> > > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to

keep

> > this

> > > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately I think for some people that this won't clarify it.

Just takes an e-mail - or a simple phone call... I did that also to

get a couple things from the e-mail clarified to make sure I wasn't

misunderstanding things.

Personallly I think that a lot has to do with placebo effect. I also

found out that you can purchase direct from BioResponse their own

brand version of DIM only it is even " stronger " than IndolPlex as it

has 150 mg rather than 120 mg like IndolPlex has....

One other thing that was never addressed.

In the BioResponse formula, when it says 120 mg, it does NOT mean

there's 120mg of DIM there. The total product is 120mg with only a

part of that being DIM. The proprietary formula, the patented formula,

)no matter what brand it is, IndolPlex or Nature's Way or BioResponse,

etc.) contains the following:

.... " modified food starch, 25% diindolylmethane (DIM), d-alpha

tocopheryl succinate, silicon dioxide, and phosphatidylcholine " ...

Of course the exact formulation isn't listed, but that's it.

Also, Dr. Zeligs didn't " invent " DIM, he was awarded a U.S. Patent

for absorption-enhanced Diindolylmethane (DIM). Someone in an earlier

post (?) questioned what the patent number was. It is U.S. patent

6,086,915.

And I am sure, absolutely sure, that other forms of processes to

enhance absorption of DIM will come along. Products marketed with

BioResponse DIM will come down inprice then as the competition will be

there for various bioavailable DIM products (muchas we have seen the

prices come down once BioResponse marketed their DIM to other brands

besides just IndolPlex).

BTW, check out this link:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=397142

Larry

> > > > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think

> that

> > > if men

> > > > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have

> heard

> > > > > about

> > > > > > > it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Where is he located? I would call.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the

> > > > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will

> knock

> > > > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood

> > > tests, we

> > > > > > > can't

> > > > > > > > say for sure what's going on.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but

> > > couldn't find

> > > > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large

> > > doses.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to

> one

> > > of

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > young

> > > > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages

> of

> > > > > > > Indolplex.

> > > > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for

> their

> > > > > > > products? How

> > > > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to

> keep

> > > this

> > > > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Larry:

It is the BioResponse version that I purchased and should receive on Monday.

I'm anxious to see what those 150mg will do!!! -- LOL! I completely

understand that I'm not getting 150mg of DIM -- no need for you to go over that

one more time. ;-)

Anywho -- we'll see if there is any marked difference. I'll give it awhirl and

let everyone know.

Official Group Gynny Pig,

Gene

lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote:

Unfortunately I think for some people that this won't clarify it.

Just takes an e-mail - or a simple phone call... I did that also to

get a couple things from the e-mail clarified to make sure I wasn't

misunderstanding things.

Personallly I think that a lot has to do with placebo effect. I also

found out that you can purchase direct from BioResponse their own

brand version of DIM only it is even " stronger " than IndolPlex as it

has 150 mg rather than 120 mg like IndolPlex has....

One other thing that was never addressed.

In the BioResponse formula, when it says 120 mg, it does NOT mean

there's 120mg of DIM there. The total product is 120mg with only a

part of that being DIM. The proprietary formula, the patented formula,

)no matter what brand it is, IndolPlex or Nature's Way or BioResponse,

etc.) contains the following:

.... " modified food starch, 25% diindolylmethane (DIM), d-alpha

tocopheryl succinate, silicon dioxide, and phosphatidylcholine " ...

Of course the exact formulation isn't listed, but that's it.

Also, Dr. Zeligs didn't " invent " DIM, he was awarded a U.S. Patent

for absorption-enhanced Diindolylmethane (DIM). Someone in an earlier

post (?) questioned what the patent number was. It is U.S. patent

6,086,915.

And I am sure, absolutely sure, that other forms of processes to

enhance absorption of DIM will come along. Products marketed with

BioResponse DIM will come down inprice then as the competition will be

there for various bioavailable DIM products (muchas we have seen the

prices come down once BioResponse marketed their DIM to other brands

besides just IndolPlex).

BTW, check out this link:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=397142

Larry

> > > > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think

> that

> > > if men

> > > > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have

> heard

> > > > > about

> > > > > > > it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Where is he located? I would call.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the

> > > > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will

> knock

> > > > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood

> > > tests, we

> > > > > > > can't

> > > > > > > > say for sure what's going on.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but

> > > couldn't find

> > > > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large

> > > doses.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to

> one

> > > of

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > young

> > > > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages

> of

> > > > > > > Indolplex.

> > > > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for

> their

> > > > > > > products? How

> > > > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to

> keep

> > > this

> > > > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Well, will wonders never cease....

Here is the link to the patent...

http://tinyurl.com/c9dnr

or

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1 & Sect2=HITOFF & d=PALL & p=1 & u=/\

netahtml/srchnum.htm & r=1 & f=G & l=50 & s1=6,086,915.WKU. & OS=PN/6,086,915 & RS=PN/6,086,\

915

where it essntially states vitamin E plus chrysin is the secret to DIM

absorption. Also, their experimental data clearly show it doesn't work

AT ALL for some people. So this may be the answer to why it hasn't

worked for certain people.

Just thought you guys (and girls) would like to know....

Louis

> Message: 17

> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:03:01 -0000

> From: " lrs1951 " <stat1951@...>

> Subject: Re: DIM Discussion

>

> They've got an " 800 number " that you can call and ask them for

> yourself.... they must be wondering what's going on, because I also

> called them (and they seemed perplexed at the calls they were

> getting... LOL).

>

> I advised them that I was the one who had sent the e-mail and wanted

> to make sure that the e-mail response was as I understood it. And,

> yes, they were adamant... they DO manufacture the same exact

> " bioavailable DIM " for those other brands that they do for IndolPlex.

> They emphasized that different brands have different strength levels.

> Brand A and brand B might both have 100mg while brand C has 60 mg and

> brand D has 120 mg... but it is the SAME potency (otherwise)

> " bioavailable DIM " manufactured under under U.S. patent 6,086,915. of

> Dr. Zeligs...

>

> It sounded like they were starting to get irate that people wouldn't

> believe them... but PLEASE call, I ain't making this up!

>

> As to Phil's experience, that sure isn't a very scientific production.

> One or two or ten men's ancedotal experience is just that. Aside from

> the fact that his experience could have been from a number of things

> (testosterone receptors finally getting used to the increased T

> levels, etc., etc.), it could have boiled down to this...

>

> First of all, when was Phil taking Nature's Way DIM? Was it BEFORE

> they got an agreement with BioResponse to sell the BioResponse DIM

> version? If so, then, yes, Phil WAS taking an inferior product. He was

> taking a DIM version that wasn't bioavailable.

>

> OR....

>

> Let's say Phil was taking a Nature's Way DIM (I think it's called DIM

> Plus) that DID contain the bioavailable BioResponse DIM. But let's say

> that the Nature's Way DIM Plus only had 60 mg of bioavailable DIM per

> tablet. And he took it for a month. And " didn't feel shit so this must

> not be working " . And then you take the IndolPlex brand that has 120 mg

> per tablet... or twice as much. And after a couple of weeks suddenly

> there's a difference. Well, with twice the dosage there should be a

> difference!

>

> OR....

>

> Natural supplements simply don't work immediately. At the very least

> they generally take days to work... sometimes weeks or even longer.

> We see that with the T that we take (which is basically a natural

> substance as compared to an artificial steroid. Yes, it is

> " synthesized " from soy or wild yams but is moleculary identical so it

> is " natural " . And taking it as a " booster " almost never results in

> immediate results. It just doesn't work that way. In fact, for a lot

> of guys the " boosting effect " takes longer than days, often takes

> weeks or even months for the T to start making a noticeable

> difference, no?

>

> Anyway, for all we know, the Nature's Way version was " chipping away "

> at the E2 levels and the InolPlex version came along about the time

> the dramatic drop happened... and ended up getting all of the credit!

>

> OR...

>

> There's always the previously mentioned placebo effect... If I

> absolutely believe that brand A is better than brand B - even though

> they might be exactly the same down to the smallest molecule and the

> same strength level down to the micromillimeter, well, I'll simply do

> better on brand A.

>

> IMHO there's changes that happen with products and processes that

> sometimes simply aren't kept up with. Calling brands (that have been

> researched to contain the same exact substance) " inferior " is not

> called for under those circumstances.

>

> QUOTE: BioResponse LLC is the " raw material manufacturer " with Dr.

> Zeligs, the patent holder on the delivery system for absorbable

> formulation. We license our trademarks including the names Indolplex ,

> BioDIM, DIM, DIM-Plus, DIM Pro to different companies. They sell the

> identical product. You can tell on bottles if it is our patented

> formulation if it says, " licensed by BioResponse LLC. "

> END QUOTE

>

> Emphasis... THEY SELL THE IDENTICAL PRODUCT

>

>

> Larry

--

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.

Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.1/28 - Release Date: 6/24/2005

[Guest guest]

Louis,

Thanks for finding this information. It's very interesting. I'm

really surprised that one of the ingredients is Chrysin. Chrysin is a

powerfull anti-aromatase in itself.

> Well, will wonders never cease....

>

> Here is the link to the patent...

>

> http://tinyurl.com/c9dnr

>

> or

>

> http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?

Sect1=PTO1 & Sect2=HITOFF & d=PALL & p=1 & u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm & r=1 & f=G & l=5

0 & s1=6,086,915.WKU. & OS=PN/6,086,915 & RS=PN/6,086,915

>

> where it essntially states vitamin E plus chrysin is the secret to

DIM

> absorption. Also, their experimental data clearly show it doesn't

work

> AT ALL for some people. So this may be the answer to why it hasn't

> worked for certain people.

>

>

> Just thought you guys (and girls) would like to know....

>

>

> Louis

>

>

>

> > Message: 17

> > Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:03:01 -0000

> > From: " lrs1951 " <stat1951@s...>

> > Subject: Re: DIM Discussion

> >

> > They've got an " 800 number " that you can call and ask them for

> > yourself.... they must be wondering what's going on, because I

also

> > called them (and they seemed perplexed at the calls they were

> > getting... LOL).

> >

> > I advised them that I was the one who had sent the e-mail and

wanted

> > to make sure that the e-mail response was as I understood it.

And,

> > yes, they were adamant... they DO manufacture the same exact

> > " bioavailable DIM " for those other brands that they do for

IndolPlex.

> > They emphasized that different brands have different strength

levels.

> > Brand A and brand B might both have 100mg while brand C has 60 mg

and

> > brand D has 120 mg... but it is the SAME potency (otherwise)

> > " bioavailable DIM " manufactured under under U.S. patent

6,086,915. of

> > Dr. Zeligs...

> >

> > It sounded like they were starting to get irate that people

wouldn't

> > believe them... but PLEASE call, I ain't making this up!

> >

> > As to Phil's experience, that sure isn't a very scientific

production.

> > One or two or ten men's ancedotal experience is just that. Aside

from

> > the fact that his experience could have been from a number of

things

> > (testosterone receptors finally getting used to the increased T

> > levels, etc., etc.), it could have boiled down to this...

> >

> > First of all, when was Phil taking Nature's Way DIM? Was it BEFORE

> > they got an agreement with BioResponse to sell the BioResponse DIM

> > version? If so, then, yes, Phil WAS taking an inferior product.

He was

> > taking a DIM version that wasn't bioavailable.

> >

> > OR....

> >

> > Let's say Phil was taking a Nature's Way DIM (I think it's called

DIM

> > Plus) that DID contain the bioavailable BioResponse DIM. But

let's say

> > that the Nature's Way DIM Plus only had 60 mg of bioavailable DIM

per

> > tablet. And he took it for a month. And " didn't feel shit so this

must

> > not be working " . And then you take the IndolPlex brand that has

120 mg

> > per tablet... or twice as much. And after a couple of weeks

suddenly

> > there's a difference. Well, with twice the dosage there should be

a

> > difference!

> >

> > OR....

> >

> > Natural supplements simply don't work immediately. At the very

least

> > they generally take days to work... sometimes weeks or even

longer.

> > We see that with the T that we take (which is basically a natural

> > substance as compared to an artificial steroid. Yes, it is

> > " synthesized " from soy or wild yams but is moleculary identical

so it

> > is " natural " . And taking it as a " booster " almost never results in

> > immediate results. It just doesn't work that way. In fact, for a

lot

> > of guys the " boosting effect " takes longer than days, often takes

> > weeks or even months for the T to start making a noticeable

> > difference, no?

> >

> > Anyway, for all we know, the Nature's Way version was " chipping

away "

> > at the E2 levels and the InolPlex version came along about the

time

> > the dramatic drop happened... and ended up getting all of the

credit!

> >

> > OR...

> >

> > There's always the previously mentioned placebo effect... If I

> > absolutely believe that brand A is better than brand B - even

though

> > they might be exactly the same down to the smallest molecule and

the

> > same strength level down to the micromillimeter, well, I'll

simply do

> > better on brand A.

> >

> > IMHO there's changes that happen with products and processes that

> > sometimes simply aren't kept up with. Calling brands (that have

been

> > researched to contain the same exact substance) " inferior " is not

> > called for under those circumstances.

> >

> > QUOTE: BioResponse LLC is the " raw material manufacturer " with

Dr.

> > Zeligs, the patent holder on the delivery system for absorbable

> > formulation. We license our trademarks including the names

Indolplex ,

> > BioDIM, DIM, DIM-Plus, DIM Pro to different companies. They

sell the

> > identical product. You can tell on bottles if it is our patented

> > formulation if it says, " licensed by BioResponse LLC. "

> > END QUOTE

> >

> > Emphasis... THEY SELL THE IDENTICAL PRODUCT

> >

> >

> > Larry

>

>

>

> --

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6/24/2005

[Guest guest]

> I could care less about trying a different brand of DIM I have

> something that works. WTF would I want to take a chance

> on a cheaper brand of DIM after all the crap I went though

> trying to find something that worked.

Exactly, Phil!

Sometimes I wonder about what some people's priorities are.

I could see if someone tried PhytoPharmica, and it worked, and then

tried a cheaper brand to see if it worked, too, and then reported back

to the group about their experience. That would be helpful.

But knowing that DIM doesn't work on everyone, and knowing that there's

a lot of good evidence about PhytoPharmica, and some bad (albeit

anecdotal) evidence about the cheaper brand(s), why would anyone try the

cheaper brand first? And the fact that they would waste everyone's time

here to save a couple of bucks shows how little they value our time.

But to argue here about a cheaper brand before trying it (or even

PhytoPharmica?) is very frustrating to me and just not helpful to

anyone.

Again, sometimes I wonder what some people's priorities are. And

sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to help such people who can't

even seem to help themselves.

[Guest guest]

> Personallly I think that a lot has to do with placebo effect.

Larry, please be more specific.

What, specifically, do you think is due to " the placebo effect? "

[Guest guest]

Z,

It looks like you are taking personal the fact that anybody is

prepared to discuss any alternative besides the Phytopharmica

Indolplex DIM that you recommend.

This is a forum for open discussion and learning. Discussing any

other product besides the product you recommend is not any attempt to

demean your advice or the product you use. On the contrary, I am

sure, everyone values your experiences and advice.

Through open discussion and exchange we have discovered so far that

regular DIM seems to work taken with oils and as recommended by a

reputable doctor that is using it this way himself as well as his

patients, which I am sure is verified by labs. We have also

discovered through open discussion and exchange that Chrysin is a

major component of Bioresponse DIM, which may not be desireable to

some people. The more information and options that are available to

people in the group, the better.

Your response gives the impression that you are very opinionated, and

has the effect of stifling open discussion and exchange on any

subject, and that is not cool. If you do not wish to participate in

any particular subject, just hit the delete button.

> > I could care less about trying a different brand of DIM I have

> > something that works. WTF would I want to take a chance

> > on a cheaper brand of DIM after all the crap I went though

> > trying to find something that worked.

>

> Exactly, Phil!

>

> Sometimes I wonder about what some people's priorities are.

>

> I could see if someone tried PhytoPharmica, and it worked, and then

> tried a cheaper brand to see if it worked, too, and then reported

back

> to the group about their experience. That would be helpful.

>

> But knowing that DIM doesn't work on everyone, and knowing that

there's

> a lot of good evidence about PhytoPharmica, and some bad (albeit

> anecdotal) evidence about the cheaper brand(s), why would anyone

try the

> cheaper brand first? And the fact that they would waste everyone's

time

> here to save a couple of bucks shows how little they value our time.

>

> But to argue here about a cheaper brand before trying it (or even

> PhytoPharmica?) is very frustrating to me and just not helpful to

> anyone.

>

> Again, sometimes I wonder what some people's priorities are. And

> sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to help such people who can't

> even seem to help themselves.