Re: DIM Discussion

[Guest guest]

, as I've tried to explain to you many times, the problem is that,

in the past, people have tried other brands of DIM, they haven't worked,

and then they come back here saying that DIM doesn't work. That

exercise is counterproductive and that's potentially where I see your

line of reasoning going.

, I have a few questions for you.

What are your health issues that bring you to this group?

Are you on TRT? If so, what kind? What's your protocol? How has it

worked for you?

What form(s) of E2 management have you used? What have been you

experiences with them?

-

Re: DIM Discussion

> Z,

>

> It looks like you are taking personal the fact that anybody is

> prepared to discuss any alternative besides the Phytopharmica

> Indolplex DIM that you recommend.

>

> This is a forum for open discussion and learning. Discussing any

> other product besides the product you recommend is not any attempt to

> demean your advice or the product you use. On the contrary, I am

> sure, everyone values your experiences and advice.

>

> Through open discussion and exchange we have discovered so far that

> regular DIM seems to work taken with oils and as recommended by a

> reputable doctor that is using it this way himself as well as his

> patients, which I am sure is verified by labs. We have also

> discovered through open discussion and exchange that Chrysin is a

> major component of Bioresponse DIM, which may not be desireable to

> some people. The more information and options that are available to

> people in the group, the better.

>

> Your response gives the impression that you are very opinionated, and

> has the effect of stifling open discussion and exchange on any

> subject, and that is not cool. If you do not wish to participate in

> any particular subject, just hit the delete button.

>

>

>

>

>

> > > I could care less about trying a different brand of DIM I have

> > > something that works. WTF would I want to take a chance

> > > on a cheaper brand of DIM after all the crap I went though

> > > trying to find something that worked.

> >

> > Exactly, Phil!

> >

> > Sometimes I wonder about what some people's priorities are.

> >

> > I could see if someone tried PhytoPharmica, and it worked, and then

> > tried a cheaper brand to see if it worked, too, and then reported

> back

> > to the group about their experience. That would be helpful.

> >

> > But knowing that DIM doesn't work on everyone, and knowing that

> there's

> > a lot of good evidence about PhytoPharmica, and some bad (albeit

> > anecdotal) evidence about the cheaper brand(s), why would anyone

> try the

> > cheaper brand first? And the fact that they would waste everyone's

> time

> > here to save a couple of bucks shows how little they value our time.

> >

> > But to argue here about a cheaper brand before trying it (or even

> > PhytoPharmica?) is very frustrating to me and just not helpful to

> > anyone.

> >

> > Again, sometimes I wonder what some people's priorities are. And

> > sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to help such people who can't

> > even seem to help themselves.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> You have also mentioned a couple times about gels causing muscle aches

> and joint pains that then went away when you went over to IM shots.

> That doesn't make sense to me. Basically, isn't it simply a matter

> that T is T? Wouldn't the T from the gel be effecyive against

> muscle/joint pains just like T from the shots? What is it in the IM

> shots that improves the muscle / joint pain? As this doesn't make any

> scientific sense, I realize that this could be something specific with

> just your individual reaction....

Larry, I don't think Phil has any obligation to explain why shots work

better for him. He's simply reporting his clinical outcome.

If you're implying that his reported response is due to " the placebo

effect " because we can't explain it, I think that's totally

inappropriate and unscientific.

If you only acknowledge the outcomes that you expect, based on your

knowledge, then you are introducing a bias to your observations. In

other words, your bias is creating a " placebo effect " of your very own.

It's up to the scientist to explain his observations. A good scientist

doesn't browbeat his test subjects because they don't yield the outcomes

that he expects.

[Guest guest]

Z,

> , as I've tried to explain to you many times, the problem is

that,

> in the past, people have tried other brands of DIM, they haven't

worked,

> and then they come back here saying that DIM doesn't work. That

> exercise is counterproductive and that's potentially where I see

your

> line of reasoning going.

I'm not sure what gave you this impression , nobody has doubted

that Phytopharmica Indolplex DIM works, especially after your

experience as well as Phil's and Gene's. And BTW, Gene tried the

Nature's Way and Puritan's Pride and said they did not work for him

and he does labs every week. I myself would purchase the

Phytopharmica Indolplex DIM(out of the 3 mentioned above) based on

this, and the fact that I don't have time to experiment. The title of

this thread is " DIM Discussion " and I personally have learned a lot

from it.

>

> , I have a few questions for you.

>

> What are your health issues that bring you to this group?

>

Adrenal Insufficiency and hypogonadism.

> Are you on TRT? If so, what kind? What's your protocol? How has

it

> worked for you?

>

I am on Testosterone Cypionate injections and HCG. It's working out

very nicely so far and I'm still at the adjusting dosages stage.

> What form(s) of E2 management have you used? What have been you

> experiences with them?

>

I have not needed E2 management so far and hopefully I may not need

it at all. My knowledge of DIM is what has been kindly shared by

everyone here in this group, including yourself, and my own research.

BTW, Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado do not recommend or use

any particular brand of DIM. They do however recommend taking any

regular DIM with something oily for absorption together with 3 times

as much TMG. They are happy with the results of their DIM regimen,

and I also have a lot of confidence in their opinions.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like monopolies of any

kind and I don't like censorship of any kind. The more discussion,

the more learning, and that can only be good.

>

>

>

> Re: DIM Discussion

>

>

> > Z,

> >

> > It looks like you are taking personal the fact that anybody is

> > prepared to discuss any alternative besides the Phytopharmica

> > Indolplex DIM that you recommend.

> >

> > This is a forum for open discussion and learning. Discussing any

> > other product besides the product you recommend is not any

attempt to

> > demean your advice or the product you use. On the contrary, I am

> > sure, everyone values your experiences and advice.

> >

> > Through open discussion and exchange we have discovered so far

that

> > regular DIM seems to work taken with oils and as recommended by a

> > reputable doctor that is using it this way himself as well as his

> > patients, which I am sure is verified by labs. We have also

> > discovered through open discussion and exchange that Chrysin is a

> > major component of Bioresponse DIM, which may not be desireable to

> > some people. The more information and options that are available

to

> > people in the group, the better.

> >

> > Your response gives the impression that you are very opinionated,

and

> > has the effect of stifling open discussion and exchange on any

> > subject, and that is not cool. If you do not wish to participate

in

> > any particular subject, just hit the delete button.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > > I could care less about trying a different brand of DIM I

have

> > > > something that works. WTF would I want to take a chance

> > > > on a cheaper brand of DIM after all the crap I went though

> > > > trying to find something that worked.

> > >

> > > Exactly, Phil!

> > >

> > > Sometimes I wonder about what some people's priorities are.

> > >

> > > I could see if someone tried PhytoPharmica, and it worked, and

then

> > > tried a cheaper brand to see if it worked, too, and then

reported

> > back

> > > to the group about their experience. That would be helpful.

> > >

> > > But knowing that DIM doesn't work on everyone, and knowing that

> > there's

> > > a lot of good evidence about PhytoPharmica, and some bad (albeit

> > > anecdotal) evidence about the cheaper brand(s), why would anyone

> > try the

> > > cheaper brand first? And the fact that they would waste

everyone's

> > time

> > > here to save a couple of bucks shows how little they value our

time.

> > >

> > > But to argue here about a cheaper brand before trying it (or

even

> > > PhytoPharmica?) is very frustrating to me and just not helpful

to

> > > anyone.

> > >

> > > Again, sometimes I wonder what some people's priorities are.

And

> > > sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to help such people who

can't

> > > even seem to help themselves.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Z,

>

> > BTW, Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado do not recommend or use

> > any particular brand of DIM. They do however recommend taking any

> > regular DIM with something oily for absorption together with 3 times

> > as much TMG. They are happy with the results of their DIM regimen,

> > and I also have a lot of confidence in their opinions.

>

> I'm very skeptical of all of these contentions. I'm not aware of any

> science that backs these contentions up.

>

I think the most important evidence would be blood work, and I'm

certain that the doctors above have done and seen a ton of lab results

showing the effectiveness of their Dim regimen before going out on a

limb and recommending it highly.

Have you ever tried this DIM regimen in the past, and not had success?

What different DIM's did you try before finally settling on

Phytopharmica?

[Guest guest]

> > > BTW, Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado do not recommend or use

> > > any particular brand of DIM. They do however recommend taking any

> > > regular DIM with something oily for absorption together with 3

times

> > > as much TMG. They are happy with the results of their DIM regimen,

> > > and I also have a lot of confidence in their opinions.

> >

> > I'm very skeptical of all of these contentions. I'm not aware of

any

> > science that backs these contentions up.

>

> I think the most important evidence would be blood work, and I'm

> certain that the doctors above have done and seen a ton of lab results

> showing the effectiveness of their Dim regimen before going out on a

> limb and recommending it highly.

What makes you so sure of that?

I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website called " Chills and no

libido. " You might not be so sure after reading that thread.

[Guest guest]

> > I think the most important evidence would be blood work, and I'm

> > certain that the doctors above have done and seen a ton of lab

results

> > showing the effectiveness of their Dim regimen before going out on a

> > limb and recommending it highly.

>

> What makes you so sure of that?

>

> I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website called " Chills and

no

> libido. " You might not be so sure after reading that thread.

I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that supports

your assertion that these doctors statements may not be reliable.

The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand that

works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation of these

doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their

recommendations because of their professional reputations, the fact

that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they have access

to and have seen more blood work and patients.

[Guest guest]

> > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work,

> > > and I'm certain that the doctors above have done and seen a

> > > ton of lab results showing the effectiveness of their Dim

> > > regimen before going out on a limb and recommending

> > > it highly.

> >

> > What makes you so sure of that?

> >

> > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website

> > called " Chills and no libido. " You might not be so

> > sure after reading that thread.

>

> I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that supports

> your assertion that these doctors statements may not be reliable.

>

> The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand that

> works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation of these

> doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their

> recommendations because of their professional reputations, the fact

> that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they have

access

> to and have seen more blood work and patients.

Quoting Dr. Crisler (Swale), " One DIM capsule, no matter (how) large,

will not drive E too low, especially on TRT. " In other words, none of

the DIM protocols HE USES will drive E2 too low. He OBVIOUSLY is

completely unaware of the power of PhytoPharmica Indolplex and the

protocols that he recommends are far, far less effective in lowering E2.

One PhytoPharmica Indolplex tablet per day made me crash big time. It

did the same to Phil and many others, including specster (the guy who

started the thread).

How did you miss that, ?

[Guest guest]

Larry-

I have seen in several medical publications that different delivery

mechanisms do affect people differently. There is some evidence that

blood testosterone levels in say, the prostate, can be different from

that in muscle, or brain, etc. using gels vs. shots, or orals. The

term " target organ " is sometimes used in this context. So all T

deliveries do not produce identical response assuming the same veinous

blood concentration.

> You have also mentioned a couple times about gels causing muscle aches

> and joint pains that then went away when you went over to IM shots.

> That doesn't make sense to me. Basically, isn't it simply a matter

> that T is T? Wouldn't the T from the gel be effecyive against

> muscle/joint pains just like T from the shots? What is it in the IM

> shots that improves the muscle / joint pain? As this doesn't make

[Guest guest]

Louis,

Thanks for the information also. The patent information was amazing to

read through. I also noted that they apparently include bee pollen in

the patented bioavailable version of DIM (as is manufactured by

BioResponse for several brands, including IndolPlex).

Larry

And....

,

An excellent point made concerning the Chrysin. A lot of studies have

been done on the Chrysin and it was found to have extremely powerful

anti-aromatase effects... but apparently only in the laboratory (in

vitro) and no real effect in the body (in vivo).

Some links about studies concerning that:

http://www.vrp.com/art/1208.asp

Aside from the in vivo issue there's also this little problem (for

those who might already have a thyroid conditions):

" Another discouraging finding from this study was that chrysin-treated

rats were considerably fatter than the controls. This may be due to

chrysins known ability to disrupt thyroid function by blocking the

conversion of T4 to T3 (a key step in thyroid hormone metabolism).

This is due to chrysins inhibition of the enzyme deiodinase.14 "

http://truffula.ldc.upenn.edu:8080/publications/latest_release/data/CYP450/Entit\

y/HTML_View/source_file_2364_29868.src.html

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_78natur

http://www.basskilleronline.com/anti-estrogen.html

To me this raises the question: The patented bioavailable DIM that is

being marketed by BioResponse (under several brands to include their

own brand name, IndolPlex and others) appaerntly contains some degree

of Chrysin in their formula. Their methodology has apparently made

DIM more " bioavailable " to the human body than just plain DIM (for

example, maybe only 7% of regular DIM is bioavailable to the body

after getting thru the GI system whereas maybe 43^ of the BioResponse

DIM is bioavailable to the body after going thru the GI System -

simplified and just a random example). Okay, does that same

bioavailable methodology make the chrysin ALSO more bioavailable to

the body? If so, it would be really exciting if the patent holder

could alter the product to include even more chrysin possibly, no?

In addition, some quick ressearch turned the following information up:

http://www.smart-drugs.net/ias-estrogen.htm

QUOTE: If testing shows that your estradiol levels are high and/or

free testosterone levels are low or low normal, you are using

testosterone or prohormone support, you desire increased abdominal fat

loss or you want to protect your prostate the following protocol is

suggested.

(1) Lose weight. Fat cells, especially in the abdominal region,

produce the aromatase enzyme, which converts testosterone into estrogen.

(2) Reduce or eliminate alcohol consumption to enable your liver to

better remove excess estrogens.

(3) Get 80-90 mg a day of zinc. Zinc functions as an aromatase

inhibitor for some men.

(4) Increase the amount of cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli and

cauliflower and flax these promote the liver to metabolize and excrete

excess estrogen

(5) Reduce or eliminate and medications that you are regularly taking

that may interfere with your healthy liver function. Common

medications include NSAIDs (e.g. ibuprofen, acetaminophen, aspirin),

the " statin " class of cholesterol lowering drugs, some heart and blood

pressure medications, and some anti-depressants.

(6) Use a topical chrysin/ diindolin formula such as Anti-Estrogen

SportsCreme by MedLean. This formula contains: Extracts of Passiflora

coerulea including chrysin These naturally-occurring bioflavanoid

(isoflavones) are potent inhibitors of aromatase, the enzyme that

converts testosterone to estradiol. Along with the many other natural

flavonoids that exist in a plant based diet including genistein,

rutin, tea catechins, these extracts may contribute to the

effectiveness of plant based diets for the prevention if cancer. They

also have anti-oxidant, anti-inflammatory and anti-anxiety properties.

Their direct effect on the neuroreceptors in the brain may create a

calming effect in many men. Note Chrysin is poorly absorbed when

taken orally, but the beneficial effects of this phytonutrient are

seen when applied topically. Di-Indole-Methane An extract of

cruciferous vegetables, DIM acts to promote and support a favorable

metabolism of estrogen and related hormones by enhancing the liver's

ability to metabolize estrogen to " weaker " 2-hydroxyestrone. DIM may

reduce prostate cancer incidence as it has been shown to stop human

cancer cells from growing by (54-61%) and provoking the cells to

self-destruct (apoptosis). DIM also improves prostate function,

enhances insulin sensitivity and increases abdominal fat loss.

Urtica Dioca A special extract of this popular herb has been shown to

increase bioavailable (free) testosterone levels by freeing it from

SHBG the testosterone-binding protein in the blood. In addition, it

inhibits aromatase and protects the prostate by blocking the

conversion of testosterone to DHT.

(7) If after six to eight weeks, the above protocol does not lower

excess estradiol levels, then it is recommended that you try the

prescription medicine Arimidex (anastrozole), a potent

aromatase-inhibiting drug starting at the low dose of 0.5 mg, twice a

week increasing to a maximum of 1.0 mg daily. Side effects from this

medication is rare.

END QUOTE

http://www.antiaging-systems.com/extract/estroblock.htm

" Note: Chrysin is poorly absorbed when taken orally, but the

beneficial effects of this phytonutrient are seen when applied topically. "

I had wondered if bioavailability of not only DIM, but specifically

Chrysin might be enhanced simply through application via a transdermal

process that would avoid the stomach acids and GI tract problems in

general. I know that bodybuilders have concocted fairly effective

" home brews " for transdermal delivery of prohormones, B12, etc. (but

then that's another topic altogether).

Another interesting link - but you do have to wade through a lot of

material to get to the good tidbits...

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=160970

For example: " Diindolylmethane (DIM) is the active constitute or

metabolite of (I3C) Indole-3-carbinol. I3C is a naturally occurring

anti-aromatase component of cruciferous vegetables. When I3C is

consumed it is converted to DIM in the gut. The only problem with I3C

is the oral bioavailability. In other words, a great deal of the

compound is destroyed in the gut. The direct supplementation of DIM

provides an adequate amount of active compound. DIM has been shown to

regulate estrogen by several different mechanisms. This means that it

may have the ability to regulate the aromatization or conversion of

testosterone to estrogen. Diindolylmethane in vivo has been shown to

inhibit the Cytochrome P-450 enzyme responsible for this conversion. "

> > Well, will wonders never cease....

> >

> > Here is the link to the patent...

> >

> > http://tinyurl.com/c9dnr

> >

> > or

> >

> > http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?

> Sect1=PTO1 & Sect2=HITOFF & d=PALL & p=1 & u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm & r=1 & f=G & l=5

> 0 & s1=6,086,915.WKU. & OS=PN/6,086,915 & RS=PN/6,086,915

> >

> > where it essntially states vitamin E plus chrysin is the secret to

> DIM

> > absorption. Also, their experimental data clearly show it doesn't

> work

> > AT ALL for some people. So this may be the answer to why it hasn't

> > worked for certain people.

> >

> >

> > Just thought you guys (and girls) would like to know....

> >

> >

> > Louis

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

What????

Phil has made this comment (about the IM shots and the reduction of

joint pains / muscle pains) a number of times. Both on this Board and

in e-mails to me.

I simply made some questions as to whether he had any idea as to " why "

that would be. I haven't seen that aspect of TRT raised anywhere else.

But I fully understand that I don't necessarily see most things, much

less everything and that maybe this wasn't a minor incidental... I

thought possibly Phil's doctor had mentioned some rationale for it.

His comments have made it seem pretty clear that he felt that the gels

were either causing those aches/pains or that those aches/pains at

least coincidentally came on while he was on the gels. What has not

been questionable has been his comments that the aches/pains clearly

went away when he went onto the IM shots.

So I asked some questions about it. I thought that was the whole

intent of this Board, to ask questions, to share information, to

discuss different methodologies and processes and compounds... and as

much as possible (as much as we knew or could find out) the " whys "

behind those processes and methodologies and substances. All with the

understanding that what works for individual " A " isn't necessarily

what is going to work for individual " B " .

And just because I mention placebo effect possibilities in a whole

different topic area, what caused you to jump to that aspect in this

topic. My posting in this area never mentioned anything about a

placebo effect - at most it mentioned that as individuals we have

different impacts by the same substances or processes or

methodologies... for example Gene's TRT protocol appears to work very

good for him... but might be devastating for you or me or Greg, etc.,

etc., with E2 levels and DHT raging out of control... but it appears

to work great for Gene!

As to this:

" If you only acknowledge the outcomes that you expect, based on your

knowledge, then you are introducing a bias to your observations. In

other words, your bias is creating a " placebo effect " of your very

own. It's up to the scientist to explain his observations. A good

scientist doesn't browbeat his test subjects because they don't yield

the outcomes that he expects. "

I have no idea where you came up with that.

Actually, if anyone here was to " only acknowledge the outcomes that

you expect " ...

I fully grasp that your protocol works for you (or so I believe) and

that Gene's protocol works for him (or so I believe) and that Phil's

protocol works for him (or so I believe). And all three are different

protocols. But all three are - for the most part, not always, but to a

large degree - explained as ancedotal " evidence " ... just YOUR

observations on yourselves or a very small group (i.e., this is what I

did and what happened to me and how it worked for me).

And that is not very " scientific " .

I don't want to spend years " fine-tuning " my TRT (as many have done)

to finally finding something that works. I don't want to simply

duplicate someone else's protocol because it worked great for that

person when maybe we have giantly different problems otherwise. Maybe

I have thyroid problems and the person I'm duplicating doesn't. Maybe

the person that I'm duplicating has elevated cortisol problems and I

don't. Maybe I'm secondary and they're primary. Maybe I don't care

about remaining " fertile " and they are, etc., etc.

What it boils down to, when I ask questions, is simply that I want to

know the " why " behind why something tends to work (understanding that

it doesn't work identical to each individual all of the time... but

that there are " standards of proof " ). I don't have a pre-established

" bias " in any of these areas. I don't have a bias towards any specific

product that uses the bioavailable DIM that is made by BioResponse. I

don't have a bias of IM shots over gels or compounded t creams over IM

shots or pellets over IM shots, etc. (I guess the only bias I have ion

that area is that oral tablets - IMHO - seem to be a definite " no-no "

due to liver toxicity problems).

Anyway, back to the IM shots and the aches/pains. If Phil has no idea

and his doctor has never expalined why that would be and he's never

come across anything online (or wherever) that would explain ut, then

that's fine... I can accept that explanation... And if he would

decide to not explain at all (even if he knew specifically what the

answer was), that's fine too. Nothing requires any of us to answere

anything that we don't want to, whether we know it or don't know it or

have a rough idea about it or whatever.

But nothing says that those questions can't be asked either... after

all, that's one of the several primary purposes of this Board (IMHO).

Larry

> > You have also mentioned a couple times about gels causing muscle aches

> > and joint pains that then went away when you went over to IM shots.

> > That doesn't make sense to me. Basically, isn't it simply a matter

> > that T is T? Wouldn't the T from the gel be effecyive against

> > muscle/joint pains just like T from the shots? What is it in the IM

> > shots that improves the muscle / joint pain? As this doesn't make any

> > scientific sense, I realize that this could be something specific with

> > just your individual reaction....

>

> Larry, I don't think Phil has any obligation to explain why shots work

> better for him. He's simply reporting his clinical outcome.

>

> If you're implying that his reported response is due to " the placebo

> effect " because we can't explain it, I think that's totally

> inappropriate and unscientific.

>

> If you only acknowledge the outcomes that you expect, based on your

> knowledge, then you are introducing a bias to your observations. In

> other words, your bias is creating a " placebo effect " of your very own.

>

> It's up to the scientist to explain his observations. A good scientist

> doesn't browbeat his test subjects because they don't yield the outcomes

> that he expects.

[Guest guest]

,

Well said.

Thank you for addressing it in this way... and thanks for the heads up

on the DIM protocol used by Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado. I

found that to be quite interesting.

Thousands, no probably tens of thousands of men (or even more) are on

TRT. Those two doctors alone probably treat several hundred. to a few

thousand TRTY patients. Most of who are not on this Board or any

other Board because they are doing fine with their TRT protocol as

established by those two doctors. No E2 problems, No DGT problems. No

hematocrit problems. T levels in VG ranges.

I would imagine that they know what they're doing - as they seem to

get recommended a lot.

Larry

> > > > > I could care less about trying a different brand of DIM I

> have

> > > > > something that works. WTF would I want to take a chance

> > > > > on a cheaper brand of DIM after all the crap I went though

> > > > > trying to find something that worked.

> > > >

> > > > Exactly, Phil!

> > > >

> > > > Sometimes I wonder about what some people's priorities are.

> > > >

> > > > I could see if someone tried PhytoPharmica, and it worked, and

> then

> > > > tried a cheaper brand to see if it worked, too, and then

> reported

> > > back

> > > > to the group about their experience. That would be helpful.

> > > >

> > > > But knowing that DIM doesn't work on everyone, and knowing that

> > > there's

> > > > a lot of good evidence about PhytoPharmica, and some bad (albeit

> > > > anecdotal) evidence about the cheaper brand(s), why would anyone

> > > try the

> > > > cheaper brand first? And the fact that they would waste

> everyone's

> > > time

> > > > here to save a couple of bucks shows how little they value our

> time.

> > > >

> > > > But to argue here about a cheaper brand before trying it (or

> even

> > > > PhytoPharmica?) is very frustrating to me and just not helpful

> to

> > > > anyone.

> > > >

> > > > Again, sometimes I wonder what some people's priorities are.

> And

> > > > sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to help such people who

> can't

> > > > even seem to help themselves.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

,

I also find it interesting that your problems are with Adrenal

Insufficiency and Hypogonadism (secondary?).

I find it interesting as I have the opposite problem... highly

elevated cortisol. My levels were so high when first measured last

September that there was an automatic assumption that I was developing

Cushing's Disease. Unfortunately that " misdiagnosis " led to several

advanced tests that were unnecessary as they jumped a couple

preliminary steps... that's wheh I started doing some erssearch and

found that my initial endocrinologist was a specialist... in diabetes!

I then switched to a specialist Endo at a nearby major medical center

and had those preliminary tests done that should have been done those

first couple months. Here it turned out I didn't have regular Cushings

but what is called Pseudo Cushings and that it was due to some long

term chronic stress problems. As a result I had a steady wearing down

of the HPA (and HPAT) Axis that led to the cortisol secretion just

erupting like crazy last June. Within a month I had developed

hypogonadism (back then I was like Gene... LOL, but close!), severe

anxiety issues, neuropathy type pains, icy cold feet, severe insomnia

and severe tinnitus!

Anyway, pop me an e-mail sometimes, I'd like to compare notes to what

it's like with a bloke who has the same problem - but only for a

reverse reason!

Larry

" As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like monopolies of any

kind and I don't like censorship of any kind. The more discussion,

the more learning, and that can only be good. "

Amen!

> > > > > I could care less about trying a different brand of DIM I

> have

> > > > > something that works. WTF would I want to take a chance

> > > > > on a cheaper brand of DIM after all the crap I went though

> > > > > trying to find something that worked.

> > > >

> > > > Exactly, Phil!

> > > >

> > > > Sometimes I wonder about what some people's priorities are.

> > > >

> > > > I could see if someone tried PhytoPharmica, and it worked, and

> then

> > > > tried a cheaper brand to see if it worked, too, and then

> reported

> > > back

> > > > to the group about their experience. That would be helpful.

> > > >

> > > > But knowing that DIM doesn't work on everyone, and knowing that

> > > there's

> > > > a lot of good evidence about PhytoPharmica, and some bad (albeit

> > > > anecdotal) evidence about the cheaper brand(s), why would anyone

> > > try the

> > > > cheaper brand first? And the fact that they would waste

> everyone's

> > > time

> > > > here to save a couple of bucks shows how little they value our

> time.

> > > >

> > > > But to argue here about a cheaper brand before trying it (or

> even

> > > > PhytoPharmica?) is very frustrating to me and just not helpful

> to

> > > > anyone.

> > > >

> > > > Again, sometimes I wonder what some people's priorities are.

> And

> > > > sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to help such people who

> can't

> > > > even seem to help themselves.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I don't think that I should have to explain placebo effect.

If you're not aware of its meaning, then look it up.

In fact, I find it somewhat scary that someone posting defrinitive

posts of a strong endorsement nature would not be aware of the

scientifically validated principle of the placebo effect and how it

plays both affirmatievly as well as negatively in everything from

medical treatments to pharmaceutical studies, etc., etc.

One example: While testing a certain medication (we'll say a new

antidepressant), the new medication has certain side effects noted...

and the placebo (which is a sugar pill has similar side effects noted

also), Research has shown that the more the clinical testers know

about the type of medication, the more likely the placebo group will

come up with those same type of side effects. If they are told that

the medication being tested has side effects of nausea, blurred

vision, and constipation, well, a considerable number in the placebo

group will in fact come up with those same side effects also. It's the

power of the mind.

So if one is convinced - not even necessarily consciously, but even

subconsciously - that the cheaper product " just can't be the same

thing, it just has to be inferior and possibly missing something " ,

well, by golly it IS more likely than not going to be inferior.

I note that they nay-sayers here are the very one who refuse to simply

call up BioResponse and verify that:

(A) They are the ones who manufacture Dr Zeligs patented " bioavailable

DIM " .

( That they then sell that same " bioavailable DIM " to several

various brand names (IndoPlex being just one) AND that they now also

amrket it udner their own brand name for sale to individuals - and at

a dosage even higher than IndoPlex.

© That the bioavailable DIM in those other brands names is exactly

the same that is in IndoPlex - the only difference being that strength

levels may vary (yes... 120 mg of the DIM product in Brand A is going

to have a stronger effect than 40mg of the bioavailable DIM in brand

B, etc., etc.). But otherwise it's the same IDENTICAL bioavailable

DIM that they make under Zeligs' patent for IndoPlex.

For me this pretty much sums it up....

QUOTE: BTW, Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado do not recommend or

use any particular brand of DIM. They do however recommend taking any

regular DIM with something oily for absorption together with 3 times

as much TMG. They are happy with the results of their DIM regimen, and

I also have a lot of confidence in their opinions.

REPLY: I'm very skeptical of all of these contentions. I'm not aware

of any science that backs these contentions up.

Now here's two doctors who treat numerous (hundreds, thousands of TRT

patients and aparently quite successfully as they are always in great

demand) and their " contentions " are just blown off (what was that

earlier statement about biases that didn't jive with one's expected

outcome???)....

Was any research done (by you) to look into the good doctors'

" contentions " ? Or how about just going over to the Meso site where Dr.

Crisler ( " SWALE " ) is the moderator) and ask him directly what he bases

the " contentions " of his treatments (obviously quite successful

treatments) on? You could then post his response over here - or

possibly invite him to join our group.

Larry

> > > ...in the past, people have tried other brands of DIM, they

> > > haven't worked, and then they come back here saying

> > > that DIM doesn't work. That exercise is counterproductive

> > > and that's potentially where I see your line of reasoning going.

> >

> > I'm not sure what gave you this impression ...

>

> Years of experience participating on Internet message boards.

>

> > ...nobody has doubted that PhytoPharmica Indolplex DIM works,

> > especially after your experience as well as Phil's and Gene's.

>

> We still have one poster here who has claimed in this thread that " the

> placebo effect " is at play here, but has so far declined to explain what

> he means by that.

>

> > And BTW, Gene tried the Nature's Way and Puritan's Pride

> > and said they did not work for him and he does labs every week.

>

> And what do you conclude from that data?

>

> > I myself would purchase the Phytopharmica Indolplex DIM (out of

> > the 3 mentioned above) based on this, and the fact that I don't have

> > time to experiment.

>

> I'm glad you figured that out. The problem is that casual surfers will

> inevitably read these discussions and come to the wrong conclusion.

> Happens all the time.

>

> > The title of this thread is " DIM Discussion " and I personally

> > have learned a lot from it.

>

> I've leaned a couple of things myself.

>

> > BTW, Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado do not recommend or use

> > any particular brand of DIM. They do however recommend taking any

> > regular DIM with something oily for absorption together with 3 times

> > as much TMG. They are happy with the results of their DIM regimen,

> > and I also have a lot of confidence in their opinions.

>

> I'm very skeptical of all of these contentions. I'm not aware of any

> science that backs these contentions up.

>

> > As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like

> > monopolies of any kind ...

>

> A patent is a legal monopoly granted by the government in exchange for

> full disclosure of an invention. Without patents to protect inventors,

> would wouldn't have half of the wonders at our fingertips that we do

> today. I'm very much in favor of patents.

>

> > ....and I don't like censorship of any kind. The more discussion,

> > the more learning, and that can only be good.

>

> I'm all for open discussion. But I don't like it when someone shouts

> fire in a crowded theater.

[Guest guest]

I was going to reply likewise to that thread, , but see that you

covered that base nicely.

That's the whole point.

One or two or three or ten or one hundred ancetodal experiences does

not constitute a factual explanation.

Larry

> > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work, and I'm

> > > certain that the doctors above have done and seen a ton of lab

> results

> > > showing the effectiveness of their Dim regimen before going out on a

> > > limb and recommending it highly.

> >

> > What makes you so sure of that?

> >

> > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website called " Chills and

> no

> > libido. " You might not be so sure after reading that thread.

>

> I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that supports

> your assertion that these doctors statements may not be reliable.

>

> The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand that

> works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation of these

> doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their

> recommendations because of their professional reputations, the fact

> that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they have access

> to and have seen more blood work and patients.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I missed the part that showed the guy's lab work that verified that it

was E2 causing his problem... or blood labs showing that his E2 was

then lowered and stabalized....

Otherwise we're just back to another individual ancedotal story.

We get various generic symptoms and no blood labs confirming anything

and then certain recommendations made - with no follow-up blood work

and then the guy says he's okay.

For all we know it's was this guy getting back on his HCG regimen

regularly (he admitted to not being regular with his HCG

administration)... or even a short-term prostatitits that cleared

itself up (I have had those and " piss shivers " sound about like what

one of the symptoms - along with feeling crappy in general) could be.

But I wouldn't swear that it was that as I didn't have any lab work

backing up such a claim.

Larry

> > > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work,

> > > > and I'm certain that the doctors above have done and seen a

> > > > ton of lab results showing the effectiveness of their Dim

> > > > regimen before going out on a limb and recommending

> > > > it highly.

> > >

> > > What makes you so sure of that?

> > >

> > > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website

> > > called " Chills and no libido. " You might not be so

> > > sure after reading that thread.

> >

> > I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that supports

> > your assertion that these doctors statements may not be reliable.

> >

> > The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand that

> > works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation of these

> > doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their

> > recommendations because of their professional reputations, the fact

> > that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they have

> access

> > to and have seen more blood work and patients.

>

> Quoting Dr. Crisler (Swale), " One DIM capsule, no matter (how) large,

> will not drive E too low, especially on TRT. " In other words, none of

> the DIM protocols HE USES will drive E2 too low. He OBVIOUSLY is

> completely unaware of the power of PhytoPharmica Indolplex and the

> protocols that he recommends are far, far less effective in lowering E2.

>

> One PhytoPharmica Indolplex tablet per day made me crash big time. It

> did the same to Phil and many others, including specster (the guy who

> started the thread).

>

> How did you miss that, ?

[Guest guest]

I have read the same tthing... as relates to simply testosterone in

general. The material that I read did NOT differentiate between one's

natural testosterone or one's externally applied testosterone in all

of it's various forms, whether IM shot or gel or compounded T cream or

pellet or whatever.

If you have any material that specifies that testosterone - once it

reaches the blood stream from whatever source - has a different effect

based on where it came from (i.e., gel or IM shot, etc.) rather than

based on the " target organ " . So yes, T might act differently in the

brain than in the prostate, but that appears to because of the

difference in the testosterone receptors in those locations and NOT

where the T came from (T is T).

If you can foward something, even some links, that indicate otherwise,

I would love to see them!

Now there ARE significant differences that can happen with the T

between the point of application and the time in reaches the

bloodstream. Gels that are applied to areas with thicker bodyfat are

going to have more of an inclination to turn into E2 correct? Gels (or

other transdermals for that matter) applied directly to the genital

area tend to cause elevations in DHT levels... but once it reaches the

bloodstream, the T is T until it get to the target organ (or muscle,

etc.)... Yes, it will be " used " differently as the receptors in those

different areas are different but not (IMHO) because of whatever

different application delivered the T.

But, hey, I'm open to any new evidence if you have anything....

Larry

>

> > You have also mentioned a couple times about gels causing muscle aches

> > and joint pains that then went away when you went over to IM shots.

> > That doesn't make sense to me. Basically, isn't it simply a matter

> > that T is T? Wouldn't the T from the gel be effecyive against

> > muscle/joint pains just like T from the shots? What is it in the IM

> > shots that improves the muscle / joint pain? As this doesn't make

[Guest guest]

> One or two or three or ten or one hundred ancetodal experiences

> does not constitute a factual explanation.

Unless the anecdote is yours!

Larry, what are your health issues that bring you to this group?

Are you on TRT? If so, what kind? What's your protocol? How has it

worked for you?

What form(s) of E2 management have you used? What have been you

experiences with them?

[Guest guest]

> > Personallly I think that a lot has to do with placebo effect.

>

> Larry, please be more specific.

> What, specifically, do you think is due to " the placebo effect? "

Larry, please reread your quote above. I'm not asking you what " the

placebo effect " is. I know full well what the placebo effect is.

You said " Personally I think that a lot has to do with placebo effect. "

What is the " that " that you are referring to in this statement? What,

SPECIFICALLY, are you saying is due to " the placebo effect? "

[Guest guest]

,

I think with the BioResponse/Indolplex DIM, that the Chrysin plays a

big part in the E2 reduction. The primary objective of DIM is to

convert the bad Estrogens to good Estrogens, and that is the way Dr.

Crisler and Dr. Delgado are using it. There are people that take both

regular DIM as well as something else to help with E2 reduction, like

Arimidex or Chrysin.

I am very gratefull to Louis for finding that patent and allowing us

to discover that Chrysin was an Ingredient in Bioresponse DIM. This

is important to know because the DIM and Chrysin serve different

functions, and one may not want or need the function of one or the

other.

> > > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work,

> > > > and I'm certain that the doctors above have done and seen a

> > > > ton of lab results showing the effectiveness of their Dim

> > > > regimen before going out on a limb and recommending

> > > > it highly.

> > >

> > > What makes you so sure of that?

> > >

> > > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website

> > > called " Chills and no libido. " You might not be so

> > > sure after reading that thread.

> >

> > I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that

supports

> > your assertion that these doctors statements may not be reliable.

> >

> > The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand

that

> > works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation of

these

> > doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their

> > recommendations because of their professional reputations, the

fact

> > that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they have

> access

> > to and have seen more blood work and patients.

>

> Quoting Dr. Crisler (Swale), " One DIM capsule, no matter (how)

large,

> will not drive E too low, especially on TRT. " In other words, none

of

> the DIM protocols HE USES will drive E2 too low. He OBVIOUSLY is

> completely unaware of the power of PhytoPharmica Indolplex and the

> protocols that he recommends are far, far less effective in

lowering E2.

>

> One PhytoPharmica Indolplex tablet per day made me crash big time.

It

> did the same to Phil and many others, including specster (the guy

who

> started the thread).

>

> How did you miss that, ?

[Guest guest]

,

Why do you care? You've never tried any DIM product(s) and it doesn't

sound like you have any reason to try it in the future.

If you try a DIM protocol in the future, please let us know what your

experiences are with it.

Re: DIM Discussion

> ,

>

> I think with the BioResponse/Indolplex DIM, that the Chrysin plays a

> big part in the E2 reduction. The primary objective of DIM is to

> convert the bad Estrogens to good Estrogens, and that is the way Dr.

> Crisler and Dr. Delgado are using it. There are people that take both

> regular DIM as well as something else to help with E2 reduction, like

> Arimidex or Chrysin.

>

> I am very gratefull to Louis for finding that patent and allowing us

> to discover that Chrysin was an Ingredient in Bioresponse DIM. This

> is important to know because the DIM and Chrysin serve different

> functions, and one may not want or need the function of one or the

> other.

>

>

>

>

>

> > > > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work,

> > > > > and I'm certain that the doctors above have done and seen a

> > > > > ton of lab results showing the effectiveness of their Dim

> > > > > regimen before going out on a limb and recommending

> > > > > it highly.

> > > >

> > > > What makes you so sure of that?

> > > >

> > > > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website

> > > > called " Chills and no libido. " You might not be so

> > > > sure after reading that thread.

> > >

> > > I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that

> supports

> > > your assertion that these doctors statements may not be reliable.

> > >

> > > The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand

> that

> > > works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation of

> these

> > > doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their

> > > recommendations because of their professional reputations, the

> fact

> > > that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they have

> > access

> > > to and have seen more blood work and patients.

> >

> > Quoting Dr. Crisler (Swale), " One DIM capsule, no matter (how)

> large,

> > will not drive E too low, especially on TRT. " In other words, none

> of

> > the DIM protocols HE USES will drive E2 too low. He OBVIOUSLY is

> > completely unaware of the power of PhytoPharmica Indolplex and the

> > protocols that he recommends are far, far less effective in

> lowering E2.

> >

> > One PhytoPharmica Indolplex tablet per day made me crash big time.

> It

> > did the same to Phil and many others, including specster (the guy

> who

> > started the thread).

> >

> > How did you miss that, ?

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

This was in reference to your post as to why regular DIM has less of

an impact on E2 levels than BioResponse/Indolplex DIM, and I believe

that the Chrysin is a big factor.

Matter of fact, yesterday I ordered BAC DIM powder, the same one

Louis has. Not sure yet if I will use it or not, but I wanted it to

be nearby, just in case. I also keep arimidex handy, just in case.

Hopefully I won't need it, but still a little early to tell.

> > > > > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work,

> > > > > > and I'm certain that the doctors above have done and seen

a

> > > > > > ton of lab results showing the effectiveness of their Dim

> > > > > > regimen before going out on a limb and recommending

> > > > > > it highly.

> > > > >

> > > > > What makes you so sure of that?

> > > > >

> > > > > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website

> > > > > called " Chills and no libido. " You might not be so

> > > > > sure after reading that thread.

> > > >

> > > > I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that

> > supports

> > > > your assertion that these doctors statements may not be

reliable.

> > > >

> > > > The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand

> > that

> > > > works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation

of

> > these

> > > > doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their

> > > > recommendations because of their professional reputations, the

> > fact

> > > > that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they

have

> > > access

> > > > to and have seen more blood work and patients.

> > >

> > > Quoting Dr. Crisler (Swale), " One DIM capsule, no matter (how)

> > large,

> > > will not drive E too low, especially on TRT. " In other words,

none

> > of

> > > the DIM protocols HE USES will drive E2 too low. He OBVIOUSLY

is

> > > completely unaware of the power of PhytoPharmica Indolplex and

the

> > > protocols that he recommends are far, far less effective in

> > lowering E2.

> > >

> > > One PhytoPharmica Indolplex tablet per day made me crash big

time.

> > It

> > > did the same to Phil and many others, including specster (the

guy

> > who

> > > started the thread).

> > >

> > > How did you miss that, ?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Bravo, Larry!

Ever hear that song by Cake 'Going the Distance'? You have GONE, my man

you have GONE....

Louis

> Message: 3

> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:38:05 -0000

> From: " lrs1951 " <stat1951@...>

> Subject: Re: DIM Discussion

>

> Louis,

>

> Thanks for the information also. The patent information was amazing to

> read through. I also noted that they apparently include bee pollen in

> the patented bioavailable version of DIM (as is manufactured by

> BioResponse for several brands, including IndolPlex).

>

> Larry

--

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.

Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.2/29 - Release Date: 6/27/2005

[Guest guest]

Yes, that thread is an interesting read....

Here's the full thread....

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134236181

He didn't specify what BRAND of DIM, so I sent him a PM and he

indicated that the brand of DIM that he was using is " Source Naturals " .

QUOTE (from PM): I am using " Source Naturals " DIM 100 mg. I took

bloods last week, no results yet. I have used arimidex, clomid and

nolvadex and I can attest that DIM is a pretty strong anti E. I was

taking 100 mg every day. I cut back to 50 mg/day. END QUOTE

I checked through my listings and found that Source Naturals is NOT

one of the brands made by BioResponse for their private labels. In

fact I checked around here and found that I had a bottle of Source

Naturals DIM.

It contains - per tablet - 100 mg (100 full milligrams) of DIM, 50 IU

of Vitamin E, 53 mg of calcium, 50 mg of Phosphatidyl Choline, and 3

mg of Bioperine (Pepper Fruit Extract). The label says that the other

substances are added to enhance the absorbability of the DIM.

So it appears this individual likely had a rollercoasting E2 problem

and got it under control by the use of DIM... and by tweaking his DIM.

I for one have never balked at the effectiveness of DIM - with most

individuals (not all, but most) in doing that.... but also noted that

it was not with IndolPlex - or for that matter any other brand that

BioResponse makes the patented product of " bioavailable DIM " .

Has some else discovered a way to make DIM more bioavailable?

Probably.

Just as AndroGel was soon joined by a new competitor (Testim) who had

a new way application of transdermal testosterone. In fact, a method,

a proces that most posters indicate is much superior to the

AndroGel.... It's called competition and it's part of the process of

progress....

Larry

> > > > BTW, Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado do not recommend or use

> > > > any particular brand of DIM. They do however recommend taking any

> > > > regular DIM with something oily for absorption together with 3

> times

> > > > as much TMG. They are happy with the results of their DIM regimen,

> > > > and I also have a lot of confidence in their opinions.

> > >

> > > I'm very skeptical of all of these contentions. I'm not aware of

> any

> > > science that backs these contentions up.

> >

> > I think the most important evidence would be blood work, and I'm

> > certain that the doctors above have done and seen a ton of lab results

> > showing the effectiveness of their Dim regimen before going out on a

> > limb and recommending it highly.

>

> What makes you so sure of that?

>

> I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website called " Chills and no

> libido. " You might not be so sure after reading that thread.