Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 , as I've tried to explain to you many times, the problem is that, in the past, people have tried other brands of DIM, they haven't worked, and then they come back here saying that DIM doesn't work. That exercise is counterproductive and that's potentially where I see your line of reasoning going. , I have a few questions for you. What are your health issues that bring you to this group? Are you on TRT? If so, what kind? What's your protocol? How has it worked for you? What form(s) of E2 management have you used? What have been you experiences with them? - Re: DIM Discussion > Z, > > It looks like you are taking personal the fact that anybody is > prepared to discuss any alternative besides the Phytopharmica > Indolplex DIM that you recommend. > > This is a forum for open discussion and learning. Discussing any > other product besides the product you recommend is not any attempt to > demean your advice or the product you use. On the contrary, I am > sure, everyone values your experiences and advice. > > Through open discussion and exchange we have discovered so far that > regular DIM seems to work taken with oils and as recommended by a > reputable doctor that is using it this way himself as well as his > patients, which I am sure is verified by labs. We have also > discovered through open discussion and exchange that Chrysin is a > major component of Bioresponse DIM, which may not be desireable to > some people. The more information and options that are available to > people in the group, the better. > > Your response gives the impression that you are very opinionated, and > has the effect of stifling open discussion and exchange on any > subject, and that is not cool. If you do not wish to participate in > any particular subject, just hit the delete button. > > > > > > > > I could care less about trying a different brand of DIM I have > > > something that works. WTF would I want to take a chance > > > on a cheaper brand of DIM after all the crap I went though > > > trying to find something that worked. > > > > Exactly, Phil! > > > > Sometimes I wonder about what some people's priorities are. > > > > I could see if someone tried PhytoPharmica, and it worked, and then > > tried a cheaper brand to see if it worked, too, and then reported > back > > to the group about their experience. That would be helpful. > > > > But knowing that DIM doesn't work on everyone, and knowing that > there's > > a lot of good evidence about PhytoPharmica, and some bad (albeit > > anecdotal) evidence about the cheaper brand(s), why would anyone > try the > > cheaper brand first? And the fact that they would waste everyone's > time > > here to save a couple of bucks shows how little they value our time. > > > > But to argue here about a cheaper brand before trying it (or even > > PhytoPharmica?) is very frustrating to me and just not helpful to > > anyone. > > > > Again, sometimes I wonder what some people's priorities are. And > > sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to help such people who can't > > even seem to help themselves. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 > You have also mentioned a couple times about gels causing muscle aches > and joint pains that then went away when you went over to IM shots. > That doesn't make sense to me. Basically, isn't it simply a matter > that T is T? Wouldn't the T from the gel be effecyive against > muscle/joint pains just like T from the shots? What is it in the IM > shots that improves the muscle / joint pain? As this doesn't make any > scientific sense, I realize that this could be something specific with > just your individual reaction.... Larry, I don't think Phil has any obligation to explain why shots work better for him. He's simply reporting his clinical outcome. If you're implying that his reported response is due to " the placebo effect " because we can't explain it, I think that's totally inappropriate and unscientific. If you only acknowledge the outcomes that you expect, based on your knowledge, then you are introducing a bias to your observations. In other words, your bias is creating a " placebo effect " of your very own. It's up to the scientist to explain his observations. A good scientist doesn't browbeat his test subjects because they don't yield the outcomes that he expects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 Z, > , as I've tried to explain to you many times, the problem is that, > in the past, people have tried other brands of DIM, they haven't worked, > and then they come back here saying that DIM doesn't work. That > exercise is counterproductive and that's potentially where I see your > line of reasoning going. I'm not sure what gave you this impression , nobody has doubted that Phytopharmica Indolplex DIM works, especially after your experience as well as Phil's and Gene's. And BTW, Gene tried the Nature's Way and Puritan's Pride and said they did not work for him and he does labs every week. I myself would purchase the Phytopharmica Indolplex DIM(out of the 3 mentioned above) based on this, and the fact that I don't have time to experiment. The title of this thread is " DIM Discussion " and I personally have learned a lot from it. > > , I have a few questions for you. > > What are your health issues that bring you to this group? > Adrenal Insufficiency and hypogonadism. > Are you on TRT? If so, what kind? What's your protocol? How has it > worked for you? > I am on Testosterone Cypionate injections and HCG. It's working out very nicely so far and I'm still at the adjusting dosages stage. > What form(s) of E2 management have you used? What have been you > experiences with them? > I have not needed E2 management so far and hopefully I may not need it at all. My knowledge of DIM is what has been kindly shared by everyone here in this group, including yourself, and my own research. BTW, Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado do not recommend or use any particular brand of DIM. They do however recommend taking any regular DIM with something oily for absorption together with 3 times as much TMG. They are happy with the results of their DIM regimen, and I also have a lot of confidence in their opinions. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like monopolies of any kind and I don't like censorship of any kind. The more discussion, the more learning, and that can only be good. > > > > Re: DIM Discussion > > > > Z, > > > > It looks like you are taking personal the fact that anybody is > > prepared to discuss any alternative besides the Phytopharmica > > Indolplex DIM that you recommend. > > > > This is a forum for open discussion and learning. Discussing any > > other product besides the product you recommend is not any attempt to > > demean your advice or the product you use. On the contrary, I am > > sure, everyone values your experiences and advice. > > > > Through open discussion and exchange we have discovered so far that > > regular DIM seems to work taken with oils and as recommended by a > > reputable doctor that is using it this way himself as well as his > > patients, which I am sure is verified by labs. We have also > > discovered through open discussion and exchange that Chrysin is a > > major component of Bioresponse DIM, which may not be desireable to > > some people. The more information and options that are available to > > people in the group, the better. > > > > Your response gives the impression that you are very opinionated, and > > has the effect of stifling open discussion and exchange on any > > subject, and that is not cool. If you do not wish to participate in > > any particular subject, just hit the delete button. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could care less about trying a different brand of DIM I have > > > > something that works. WTF would I want to take a chance > > > > on a cheaper brand of DIM after all the crap I went though > > > > trying to find something that worked. > > > > > > Exactly, Phil! > > > > > > Sometimes I wonder about what some people's priorities are. > > > > > > I could see if someone tried PhytoPharmica, and it worked, and then > > > tried a cheaper brand to see if it worked, too, and then reported > > back > > > to the group about their experience. That would be helpful. > > > > > > But knowing that DIM doesn't work on everyone, and knowing that > > there's > > > a lot of good evidence about PhytoPharmica, and some bad (albeit > > > anecdotal) evidence about the cheaper brand(s), why would anyone > > try the > > > cheaper brand first? And the fact that they would waste everyone's > > time > > > here to save a couple of bucks shows how little they value our time. > > > > > > But to argue here about a cheaper brand before trying it (or even > > > PhytoPharmica?) is very frustrating to me and just not helpful to > > > anyone. > > > > > > Again, sometimes I wonder what some people's priorities are. And > > > sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to help such people who can't > > > even seem to help themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 Z, > > > BTW, Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado do not recommend or use > > any particular brand of DIM. They do however recommend taking any > > regular DIM with something oily for absorption together with 3 times > > as much TMG. They are happy with the results of their DIM regimen, > > and I also have a lot of confidence in their opinions. > > I'm very skeptical of all of these contentions. I'm not aware of any > science that backs these contentions up. > I think the most important evidence would be blood work, and I'm certain that the doctors above have done and seen a ton of lab results showing the effectiveness of their Dim regimen before going out on a limb and recommending it highly. Have you ever tried this DIM regimen in the past, and not had success? What different DIM's did you try before finally settling on Phytopharmica? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 > > > BTW, Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado do not recommend or use > > > any particular brand of DIM. They do however recommend taking any > > > regular DIM with something oily for absorption together with 3 times > > > as much TMG. They are happy with the results of their DIM regimen, > > > and I also have a lot of confidence in their opinions. > > > > I'm very skeptical of all of these contentions. I'm not aware of any > > science that backs these contentions up. > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work, and I'm > certain that the doctors above have done and seen a ton of lab results > showing the effectiveness of their Dim regimen before going out on a > limb and recommending it highly. What makes you so sure of that? I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website called " Chills and no libido. " You might not be so sure after reading that thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work, and I'm > > certain that the doctors above have done and seen a ton of lab results > > showing the effectiveness of their Dim regimen before going out on a > > limb and recommending it highly. > > What makes you so sure of that? > > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website called " Chills and no > libido. " You might not be so sure after reading that thread. I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that supports your assertion that these doctors statements may not be reliable. The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand that works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation of these doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their recommendations because of their professional reputations, the fact that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they have access to and have seen more blood work and patients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 > > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work, > > > and I'm certain that the doctors above have done and seen a > > > ton of lab results showing the effectiveness of their Dim > > > regimen before going out on a limb and recommending > > > it highly. > > > > What makes you so sure of that? > > > > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website > > called " Chills and no libido. " You might not be so > > sure after reading that thread. > > I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that supports > your assertion that these doctors statements may not be reliable. > > The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand that > works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation of these > doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their > recommendations because of their professional reputations, the fact > that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they have access > to and have seen more blood work and patients. Quoting Dr. Crisler (Swale), " One DIM capsule, no matter (how) large, will not drive E too low, especially on TRT. " In other words, none of the DIM protocols HE USES will drive E2 too low. He OBVIOUSLY is completely unaware of the power of PhytoPharmica Indolplex and the protocols that he recommends are far, far less effective in lowering E2. One PhytoPharmica Indolplex tablet per day made me crash big time. It did the same to Phil and many others, including specster (the guy who started the thread). How did you miss that, ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 Larry- I have seen in several medical publications that different delivery mechanisms do affect people differently. There is some evidence that blood testosterone levels in say, the prostate, can be different from that in muscle, or brain, etc. using gels vs. shots, or orals. The term " target organ " is sometimes used in this context. So all T deliveries do not produce identical response assuming the same veinous blood concentration. > You have also mentioned a couple times about gels causing muscle aches > and joint pains that then went away when you went over to IM shots. > That doesn't make sense to me. Basically, isn't it simply a matter > that T is T? Wouldn't the T from the gel be effecyive against > muscle/joint pains just like T from the shots? What is it in the IM > shots that improves the muscle / joint pain? As this doesn't make Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 Louis, Thanks for the information also. The patent information was amazing to read through. I also noted that they apparently include bee pollen in the patented bioavailable version of DIM (as is manufactured by BioResponse for several brands, including IndolPlex). Larry And.... , An excellent point made concerning the Chrysin. A lot of studies have been done on the Chrysin and it was found to have extremely powerful anti-aromatase effects... but apparently only in the laboratory (in vitro) and no real effect in the body (in vivo). Some links about studies concerning that: http://www.vrp.com/art/1208.asp Aside from the in vivo issue there's also this little problem (for those who might already have a thyroid conditions): " Another discouraging finding from this study was that chrysin-treated rats were considerably fatter than the controls. This may be due to chrysins known ability to disrupt thyroid function by blocking the conversion of T4 to T3 (a key step in thyroid hormone metabolism). This is due to chrysins inhibition of the enzyme deiodinase.14 " http://truffula.ldc.upenn.edu:8080/publications/latest_release/data/CYP450/Entit\ y/HTML_View/source_file_2364_29868.src.html http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_78natur http://www.basskilleronline.com/anti-estrogen.html To me this raises the question: The patented bioavailable DIM that is being marketed by BioResponse (under several brands to include their own brand name, IndolPlex and others) appaerntly contains some degree of Chrysin in their formula. Their methodology has apparently made DIM more " bioavailable " to the human body than just plain DIM (for example, maybe only 7% of regular DIM is bioavailable to the body after getting thru the GI system whereas maybe 43^ of the BioResponse DIM is bioavailable to the body after going thru the GI System - simplified and just a random example). Okay, does that same bioavailable methodology make the chrysin ALSO more bioavailable to the body? If so, it would be really exciting if the patent holder could alter the product to include even more chrysin possibly, no? In addition, some quick ressearch turned the following information up: http://www.smart-drugs.net/ias-estrogen.htm QUOTE: If testing shows that your estradiol levels are high and/or free testosterone levels are low or low normal, you are using testosterone or prohormone support, you desire increased abdominal fat loss or you want to protect your prostate the following protocol is suggested. (1) Lose weight. Fat cells, especially in the abdominal region, produce the aromatase enzyme, which converts testosterone into estrogen. (2) Reduce or eliminate alcohol consumption to enable your liver to better remove excess estrogens. (3) Get 80-90 mg a day of zinc. Zinc functions as an aromatase inhibitor for some men. (4) Increase the amount of cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli and cauliflower and flax these promote the liver to metabolize and excrete excess estrogen (5) Reduce or eliminate and medications that you are regularly taking that may interfere with your healthy liver function. Common medications include NSAIDs (e.g. ibuprofen, acetaminophen, aspirin), the " statin " class of cholesterol lowering drugs, some heart and blood pressure medications, and some anti-depressants. (6) Use a topical chrysin/ diindolin formula such as Anti-Estrogen SportsCreme by MedLean. This formula contains: Extracts of Passiflora coerulea including chrysin These naturally-occurring bioflavanoid (isoflavones) are potent inhibitors of aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to estradiol. Along with the many other natural flavonoids that exist in a plant based diet including genistein, rutin, tea catechins, these extracts may contribute to the effectiveness of plant based diets for the prevention if cancer. They also have anti-oxidant, anti-inflammatory and anti-anxiety properties. Their direct effect on the neuroreceptors in the brain may create a calming effect in many men. Note Chrysin is poorly absorbed when taken orally, but the beneficial effects of this phytonutrient are seen when applied topically. Di-Indole-Methane An extract of cruciferous vegetables, DIM acts to promote and support a favorable metabolism of estrogen and related hormones by enhancing the liver's ability to metabolize estrogen to " weaker " 2-hydroxyestrone. DIM may reduce prostate cancer incidence as it has been shown to stop human cancer cells from growing by (54-61%) and provoking the cells to self-destruct (apoptosis). DIM also improves prostate function, enhances insulin sensitivity and increases abdominal fat loss. Urtica Dioca A special extract of this popular herb has been shown to increase bioavailable (free) testosterone levels by freeing it from SHBG the testosterone-binding protein in the blood. In addition, it inhibits aromatase and protects the prostate by blocking the conversion of testosterone to DHT. (7) If after six to eight weeks, the above protocol does not lower excess estradiol levels, then it is recommended that you try the prescription medicine Arimidex (anastrozole), a potent aromatase-inhibiting drug starting at the low dose of 0.5 mg, twice a week increasing to a maximum of 1.0 mg daily. Side effects from this medication is rare. END QUOTE http://www.antiaging-systems.com/extract/estroblock.htm " Note: Chrysin is poorly absorbed when taken orally, but the beneficial effects of this phytonutrient are seen when applied topically. " I had wondered if bioavailability of not only DIM, but specifically Chrysin might be enhanced simply through application via a transdermal process that would avoid the stomach acids and GI tract problems in general. I know that bodybuilders have concocted fairly effective " home brews " for transdermal delivery of prohormones, B12, etc. (but then that's another topic altogether). Another interesting link - but you do have to wade through a lot of material to get to the good tidbits... http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=160970 For example: " Diindolylmethane (DIM) is the active constitute or metabolite of (I3C) Indole-3-carbinol. I3C is a naturally occurring anti-aromatase component of cruciferous vegetables. When I3C is consumed it is converted to DIM in the gut. The only problem with I3C is the oral bioavailability. In other words, a great deal of the compound is destroyed in the gut. The direct supplementation of DIM provides an adequate amount of active compound. DIM has been shown to regulate estrogen by several different mechanisms. This means that it may have the ability to regulate the aromatization or conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Diindolylmethane in vivo has been shown to inhibit the Cytochrome P-450 enzyme responsible for this conversion. " > > Well, will wonders never cease.... > > > > Here is the link to the patent... > > > > http://tinyurl.com/c9dnr > > > > or > > > > http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser? > Sect1=PTO1 & Sect2=HITOFF & d=PALL & p=1 & u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm & r=1 & f=G & l=5 > 0 & s1=6,086,915.WKU. & OS=PN/6,086,915 & RS=PN/6,086,915 > > > > where it essntially states vitamin E plus chrysin is the secret to > DIM > > absorption. Also, their experimental data clearly show it doesn't > work > > AT ALL for some people. So this may be the answer to why it hasn't > > worked for certain people. > > > > > > Just thought you guys (and girls) would like to know.... > > > > > > Louis > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 What???? Phil has made this comment (about the IM shots and the reduction of joint pains / muscle pains) a number of times. Both on this Board and in e-mails to me. I simply made some questions as to whether he had any idea as to " why " that would be. I haven't seen that aspect of TRT raised anywhere else. But I fully understand that I don't necessarily see most things, much less everything and that maybe this wasn't a minor incidental... I thought possibly Phil's doctor had mentioned some rationale for it. His comments have made it seem pretty clear that he felt that the gels were either causing those aches/pains or that those aches/pains at least coincidentally came on while he was on the gels. What has not been questionable has been his comments that the aches/pains clearly went away when he went onto the IM shots. So I asked some questions about it. I thought that was the whole intent of this Board, to ask questions, to share information, to discuss different methodologies and processes and compounds... and as much as possible (as much as we knew or could find out) the " whys " behind those processes and methodologies and substances. All with the understanding that what works for individual " A " isn't necessarily what is going to work for individual " B " . And just because I mention placebo effect possibilities in a whole different topic area, what caused you to jump to that aspect in this topic. My posting in this area never mentioned anything about a placebo effect - at most it mentioned that as individuals we have different impacts by the same substances or processes or methodologies... for example Gene's TRT protocol appears to work very good for him... but might be devastating for you or me or Greg, etc., etc., with E2 levels and DHT raging out of control... but it appears to work great for Gene! As to this: " If you only acknowledge the outcomes that you expect, based on your knowledge, then you are introducing a bias to your observations. In other words, your bias is creating a " placebo effect " of your very own. It's up to the scientist to explain his observations. A good scientist doesn't browbeat his test subjects because they don't yield the outcomes that he expects. " I have no idea where you came up with that. Actually, if anyone here was to " only acknowledge the outcomes that you expect " ... I fully grasp that your protocol works for you (or so I believe) and that Gene's protocol works for him (or so I believe) and that Phil's protocol works for him (or so I believe). And all three are different protocols. But all three are - for the most part, not always, but to a large degree - explained as ancedotal " evidence " ... just YOUR observations on yourselves or a very small group (i.e., this is what I did and what happened to me and how it worked for me). And that is not very " scientific " . I don't want to spend years " fine-tuning " my TRT (as many have done) to finally finding something that works. I don't want to simply duplicate someone else's protocol because it worked great for that person when maybe we have giantly different problems otherwise. Maybe I have thyroid problems and the person I'm duplicating doesn't. Maybe the person that I'm duplicating has elevated cortisol problems and I don't. Maybe I'm secondary and they're primary. Maybe I don't care about remaining " fertile " and they are, etc., etc. What it boils down to, when I ask questions, is simply that I want to know the " why " behind why something tends to work (understanding that it doesn't work identical to each individual all of the time... but that there are " standards of proof " ). I don't have a pre-established " bias " in any of these areas. I don't have a bias towards any specific product that uses the bioavailable DIM that is made by BioResponse. I don't have a bias of IM shots over gels or compounded t creams over IM shots or pellets over IM shots, etc. (I guess the only bias I have ion that area is that oral tablets - IMHO - seem to be a definite " no-no " due to liver toxicity problems). Anyway, back to the IM shots and the aches/pains. If Phil has no idea and his doctor has never expalined why that would be and he's never come across anything online (or wherever) that would explain ut, then that's fine... I can accept that explanation... And if he would decide to not explain at all (even if he knew specifically what the answer was), that's fine too. Nothing requires any of us to answere anything that we don't want to, whether we know it or don't know it or have a rough idea about it or whatever. But nothing says that those questions can't be asked either... after all, that's one of the several primary purposes of this Board (IMHO). Larry > > You have also mentioned a couple times about gels causing muscle aches > > and joint pains that then went away when you went over to IM shots. > > That doesn't make sense to me. Basically, isn't it simply a matter > > that T is T? Wouldn't the T from the gel be effecyive against > > muscle/joint pains just like T from the shots? What is it in the IM > > shots that improves the muscle / joint pain? As this doesn't make any > > scientific sense, I realize that this could be something specific with > > just your individual reaction.... > > Larry, I don't think Phil has any obligation to explain why shots work > better for him. He's simply reporting his clinical outcome. > > If you're implying that his reported response is due to " the placebo > effect " because we can't explain it, I think that's totally > inappropriate and unscientific. > > If you only acknowledge the outcomes that you expect, based on your > knowledge, then you are introducing a bias to your observations. In > other words, your bias is creating a " placebo effect " of your very own. > > It's up to the scientist to explain his observations. A good scientist > doesn't browbeat his test subjects because they don't yield the outcomes > that he expects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 , Well said. Thank you for addressing it in this way... and thanks for the heads up on the DIM protocol used by Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado. I found that to be quite interesting. Thousands, no probably tens of thousands of men (or even more) are on TRT. Those two doctors alone probably treat several hundred. to a few thousand TRTY patients. Most of who are not on this Board or any other Board because they are doing fine with their TRT protocol as established by those two doctors. No E2 problems, No DGT problems. No hematocrit problems. T levels in VG ranges. I would imagine that they know what they're doing - as they seem to get recommended a lot. Larry > > > > > I could care less about trying a different brand of DIM I > have > > > > > something that works. WTF would I want to take a chance > > > > > on a cheaper brand of DIM after all the crap I went though > > > > > trying to find something that worked. > > > > > > > > Exactly, Phil! > > > > > > > > Sometimes I wonder about what some people's priorities are. > > > > > > > > I could see if someone tried PhytoPharmica, and it worked, and > then > > > > tried a cheaper brand to see if it worked, too, and then > reported > > > back > > > > to the group about their experience. That would be helpful. > > > > > > > > But knowing that DIM doesn't work on everyone, and knowing that > > > there's > > > > a lot of good evidence about PhytoPharmica, and some bad (albeit > > > > anecdotal) evidence about the cheaper brand(s), why would anyone > > > try the > > > > cheaper brand first? And the fact that they would waste > everyone's > > > time > > > > here to save a couple of bucks shows how little they value our > time. > > > > > > > > But to argue here about a cheaper brand before trying it (or > even > > > > PhytoPharmica?) is very frustrating to me and just not helpful > to > > > > anyone. > > > > > > > > Again, sometimes I wonder what some people's priorities are. > And > > > > sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to help such people who > can't > > > > even seem to help themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 , I also find it interesting that your problems are with Adrenal Insufficiency and Hypogonadism (secondary?). I find it interesting as I have the opposite problem... highly elevated cortisol. My levels were so high when first measured last September that there was an automatic assumption that I was developing Cushing's Disease. Unfortunately that " misdiagnosis " led to several advanced tests that were unnecessary as they jumped a couple preliminary steps... that's wheh I started doing some erssearch and found that my initial endocrinologist was a specialist... in diabetes! I then switched to a specialist Endo at a nearby major medical center and had those preliminary tests done that should have been done those first couple months. Here it turned out I didn't have regular Cushings but what is called Pseudo Cushings and that it was due to some long term chronic stress problems. As a result I had a steady wearing down of the HPA (and HPAT) Axis that led to the cortisol secretion just erupting like crazy last June. Within a month I had developed hypogonadism (back then I was like Gene... LOL, but close!), severe anxiety issues, neuropathy type pains, icy cold feet, severe insomnia and severe tinnitus! Anyway, pop me an e-mail sometimes, I'd like to compare notes to what it's like with a bloke who has the same problem - but only for a reverse reason! Larry " As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like monopolies of any kind and I don't like censorship of any kind. The more discussion, the more learning, and that can only be good. " Amen! > > > > > I could care less about trying a different brand of DIM I > have > > > > > something that works. WTF would I want to take a chance > > > > > on a cheaper brand of DIM after all the crap I went though > > > > > trying to find something that worked. > > > > > > > > Exactly, Phil! > > > > > > > > Sometimes I wonder about what some people's priorities are. > > > > > > > > I could see if someone tried PhytoPharmica, and it worked, and > then > > > > tried a cheaper brand to see if it worked, too, and then > reported > > > back > > > > to the group about their experience. That would be helpful. > > > > > > > > But knowing that DIM doesn't work on everyone, and knowing that > > > there's > > > > a lot of good evidence about PhytoPharmica, and some bad (albeit > > > > anecdotal) evidence about the cheaper brand(s), why would anyone > > > try the > > > > cheaper brand first? And the fact that they would waste > everyone's > > > time > > > > here to save a couple of bucks shows how little they value our > time. > > > > > > > > But to argue here about a cheaper brand before trying it (or > even > > > > PhytoPharmica?) is very frustrating to me and just not helpful > to > > > > anyone. > > > > > > > > Again, sometimes I wonder what some people's priorities are. > And > > > > sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to help such people who > can't > > > > even seem to help themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 I don't think that I should have to explain placebo effect. If you're not aware of its meaning, then look it up. In fact, I find it somewhat scary that someone posting defrinitive posts of a strong endorsement nature would not be aware of the scientifically validated principle of the placebo effect and how it plays both affirmatievly as well as negatively in everything from medical treatments to pharmaceutical studies, etc., etc. One example: While testing a certain medication (we'll say a new antidepressant), the new medication has certain side effects noted... and the placebo (which is a sugar pill has similar side effects noted also), Research has shown that the more the clinical testers know about the type of medication, the more likely the placebo group will come up with those same type of side effects. If they are told that the medication being tested has side effects of nausea, blurred vision, and constipation, well, a considerable number in the placebo group will in fact come up with those same side effects also. It's the power of the mind. So if one is convinced - not even necessarily consciously, but even subconsciously - that the cheaper product " just can't be the same thing, it just has to be inferior and possibly missing something " , well, by golly it IS more likely than not going to be inferior. I note that they nay-sayers here are the very one who refuse to simply call up BioResponse and verify that: (A) They are the ones who manufacture Dr Zeligs patented " bioavailable DIM " . ( That they then sell that same " bioavailable DIM " to several various brand names (IndoPlex being just one) AND that they now also amrket it udner their own brand name for sale to individuals - and at a dosage even higher than IndoPlex. © That the bioavailable DIM in those other brands names is exactly the same that is in IndoPlex - the only difference being that strength levels may vary (yes... 120 mg of the DIM product in Brand A is going to have a stronger effect than 40mg of the bioavailable DIM in brand B, etc., etc.). But otherwise it's the same IDENTICAL bioavailable DIM that they make under Zeligs' patent for IndoPlex. For me this pretty much sums it up.... QUOTE: BTW, Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado do not recommend or use any particular brand of DIM. They do however recommend taking any regular DIM with something oily for absorption together with 3 times as much TMG. They are happy with the results of their DIM regimen, and I also have a lot of confidence in their opinions. REPLY: I'm very skeptical of all of these contentions. I'm not aware of any science that backs these contentions up. Now here's two doctors who treat numerous (hundreds, thousands of TRT patients and aparently quite successfully as they are always in great demand) and their " contentions " are just blown off (what was that earlier statement about biases that didn't jive with one's expected outcome???).... Was any research done (by you) to look into the good doctors' " contentions " ? Or how about just going over to the Meso site where Dr. Crisler ( " SWALE " ) is the moderator) and ask him directly what he bases the " contentions " of his treatments (obviously quite successful treatments) on? You could then post his response over here - or possibly invite him to join our group. Larry > > > ...in the past, people have tried other brands of DIM, they > > > haven't worked, and then they come back here saying > > > that DIM doesn't work. That exercise is counterproductive > > > and that's potentially where I see your line of reasoning going. > > > > I'm not sure what gave you this impression ... > > Years of experience participating on Internet message boards. > > > ...nobody has doubted that PhytoPharmica Indolplex DIM works, > > especially after your experience as well as Phil's and Gene's. > > We still have one poster here who has claimed in this thread that " the > placebo effect " is at play here, but has so far declined to explain what > he means by that. > > > And BTW, Gene tried the Nature's Way and Puritan's Pride > > and said they did not work for him and he does labs every week. > > And what do you conclude from that data? > > > I myself would purchase the Phytopharmica Indolplex DIM (out of > > the 3 mentioned above) based on this, and the fact that I don't have > > time to experiment. > > I'm glad you figured that out. The problem is that casual surfers will > inevitably read these discussions and come to the wrong conclusion. > Happens all the time. > > > The title of this thread is " DIM Discussion " and I personally > > have learned a lot from it. > > I've leaned a couple of things myself. > > > BTW, Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado do not recommend or use > > any particular brand of DIM. They do however recommend taking any > > regular DIM with something oily for absorption together with 3 times > > as much TMG. They are happy with the results of their DIM regimen, > > and I also have a lot of confidence in their opinions. > > I'm very skeptical of all of these contentions. I'm not aware of any > science that backs these contentions up. > > > As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like > > monopolies of any kind ... > > A patent is a legal monopoly granted by the government in exchange for > full disclosure of an invention. Without patents to protect inventors, > would wouldn't have half of the wonders at our fingertips that we do > today. I'm very much in favor of patents. > > > ....and I don't like censorship of any kind. The more discussion, > > the more learning, and that can only be good. > > I'm all for open discussion. But I don't like it when someone shouts > fire in a crowded theater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 I was going to reply likewise to that thread, , but see that you covered that base nicely. That's the whole point. One or two or three or ten or one hundred ancetodal experiences does not constitute a factual explanation. Larry > > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work, and I'm > > > certain that the doctors above have done and seen a ton of lab > results > > > showing the effectiveness of their Dim regimen before going out on a > > > limb and recommending it highly. > > > > What makes you so sure of that? > > > > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website called " Chills and > no > > libido. " You might not be so sure after reading that thread. > > I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that supports > your assertion that these doctors statements may not be reliable. > > The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand that > works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation of these > doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their > recommendations because of their professional reputations, the fact > that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they have access > to and have seen more blood work and patients. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 , I missed the part that showed the guy's lab work that verified that it was E2 causing his problem... or blood labs showing that his E2 was then lowered and stabalized.... Otherwise we're just back to another individual ancedotal story. We get various generic symptoms and no blood labs confirming anything and then certain recommendations made - with no follow-up blood work and then the guy says he's okay. For all we know it's was this guy getting back on his HCG regimen regularly (he admitted to not being regular with his HCG administration)... or even a short-term prostatitits that cleared itself up (I have had those and " piss shivers " sound about like what one of the symptoms - along with feeling crappy in general) could be. But I wouldn't swear that it was that as I didn't have any lab work backing up such a claim. Larry > > > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work, > > > > and I'm certain that the doctors above have done and seen a > > > > ton of lab results showing the effectiveness of their Dim > > > > regimen before going out on a limb and recommending > > > > it highly. > > > > > > What makes you so sure of that? > > > > > > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website > > > called " Chills and no libido. " You might not be so > > > sure after reading that thread. > > > > I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that supports > > your assertion that these doctors statements may not be reliable. > > > > The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand that > > works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation of these > > doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their > > recommendations because of their professional reputations, the fact > > that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they have > access > > to and have seen more blood work and patients. > > Quoting Dr. Crisler (Swale), " One DIM capsule, no matter (how) large, > will not drive E too low, especially on TRT. " In other words, none of > the DIM protocols HE USES will drive E2 too low. He OBVIOUSLY is > completely unaware of the power of PhytoPharmica Indolplex and the > protocols that he recommends are far, far less effective in lowering E2. > > One PhytoPharmica Indolplex tablet per day made me crash big time. It > did the same to Phil and many others, including specster (the guy who > started the thread). > > How did you miss that, ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 I have read the same tthing... as relates to simply testosterone in general. The material that I read did NOT differentiate between one's natural testosterone or one's externally applied testosterone in all of it's various forms, whether IM shot or gel or compounded T cream or pellet or whatever. If you have any material that specifies that testosterone - once it reaches the blood stream from whatever source - has a different effect based on where it came from (i.e., gel or IM shot, etc.) rather than based on the " target organ " . So yes, T might act differently in the brain than in the prostate, but that appears to because of the difference in the testosterone receptors in those locations and NOT where the T came from (T is T). If you can foward something, even some links, that indicate otherwise, I would love to see them! Now there ARE significant differences that can happen with the T between the point of application and the time in reaches the bloodstream. Gels that are applied to areas with thicker bodyfat are going to have more of an inclination to turn into E2 correct? Gels (or other transdermals for that matter) applied directly to the genital area tend to cause elevations in DHT levels... but once it reaches the bloodstream, the T is T until it get to the target organ (or muscle, etc.)... Yes, it will be " used " differently as the receptors in those different areas are different but not (IMHO) because of whatever different application delivered the T. But, hey, I'm open to any new evidence if you have anything.... Larry > > > You have also mentioned a couple times about gels causing muscle aches > > and joint pains that then went away when you went over to IM shots. > > That doesn't make sense to me. Basically, isn't it simply a matter > > that T is T? Wouldn't the T from the gel be effecyive against > > muscle/joint pains just like T from the shots? What is it in the IM > > shots that improves the muscle / joint pain? As this doesn't make Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 > One or two or three or ten or one hundred ancetodal experiences > does not constitute a factual explanation. Unless the anecdote is yours! Larry, what are your health issues that bring you to this group? Are you on TRT? If so, what kind? What's your protocol? How has it worked for you? What form(s) of E2 management have you used? What have been you experiences with them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 > > Personallly I think that a lot has to do with placebo effect. > > Larry, please be more specific. > What, specifically, do you think is due to " the placebo effect? " Larry, please reread your quote above. I'm not asking you what " the placebo effect " is. I know full well what the placebo effect is. You said " Personally I think that a lot has to do with placebo effect. " What is the " that " that you are referring to in this statement? What, SPECIFICALLY, are you saying is due to " the placebo effect? " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 , I think with the BioResponse/Indolplex DIM, that the Chrysin plays a big part in the E2 reduction. The primary objective of DIM is to convert the bad Estrogens to good Estrogens, and that is the way Dr. Crisler and Dr. Delgado are using it. There are people that take both regular DIM as well as something else to help with E2 reduction, like Arimidex or Chrysin. I am very gratefull to Louis for finding that patent and allowing us to discover that Chrysin was an Ingredient in Bioresponse DIM. This is important to know because the DIM and Chrysin serve different functions, and one may not want or need the function of one or the other. > > > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work, > > > > and I'm certain that the doctors above have done and seen a > > > > ton of lab results showing the effectiveness of their Dim > > > > regimen before going out on a limb and recommending > > > > it highly. > > > > > > What makes you so sure of that? > > > > > > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website > > > called " Chills and no libido. " You might not be so > > > sure after reading that thread. > > > > I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that supports > > your assertion that these doctors statements may not be reliable. > > > > The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand that > > works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation of these > > doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their > > recommendations because of their professional reputations, the fact > > that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they have > access > > to and have seen more blood work and patients. > > Quoting Dr. Crisler (Swale), " One DIM capsule, no matter (how) large, > will not drive E too low, especially on TRT. " In other words, none of > the DIM protocols HE USES will drive E2 too low. He OBVIOUSLY is > completely unaware of the power of PhytoPharmica Indolplex and the > protocols that he recommends are far, far less effective in lowering E2. > > One PhytoPharmica Indolplex tablet per day made me crash big time. It > did the same to Phil and many others, including specster (the guy who > started the thread). > > How did you miss that, ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 , Why do you care? You've never tried any DIM product(s) and it doesn't sound like you have any reason to try it in the future. If you try a DIM protocol in the future, please let us know what your experiences are with it. Re: DIM Discussion > , > > I think with the BioResponse/Indolplex DIM, that the Chrysin plays a > big part in the E2 reduction. The primary objective of DIM is to > convert the bad Estrogens to good Estrogens, and that is the way Dr. > Crisler and Dr. Delgado are using it. There are people that take both > regular DIM as well as something else to help with E2 reduction, like > Arimidex or Chrysin. > > I am very gratefull to Louis for finding that patent and allowing us > to discover that Chrysin was an Ingredient in Bioresponse DIM. This > is important to know because the DIM and Chrysin serve different > functions, and one may not want or need the function of one or the > other. > > > > > > > > > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work, > > > > > and I'm certain that the doctors above have done and seen a > > > > > ton of lab results showing the effectiveness of their Dim > > > > > regimen before going out on a limb and recommending > > > > > it highly. > > > > > > > > What makes you so sure of that? > > > > > > > > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website > > > > called " Chills and no libido. " You might not be so > > > > sure after reading that thread. > > > > > > I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that > supports > > > your assertion that these doctors statements may not be reliable. > > > > > > The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand > that > > > works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation of > these > > > doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their > > > recommendations because of their professional reputations, the > fact > > > that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they have > > access > > > to and have seen more blood work and patients. > > > > Quoting Dr. Crisler (Swale), " One DIM capsule, no matter (how) > large, > > will not drive E too low, especially on TRT. " In other words, none > of > > the DIM protocols HE USES will drive E2 too low. He OBVIOUSLY is > > completely unaware of the power of PhytoPharmica Indolplex and the > > protocols that he recommends are far, far less effective in > lowering E2. > > > > One PhytoPharmica Indolplex tablet per day made me crash big time. > It > > did the same to Phil and many others, including specster (the guy > who > > started the thread). > > > > How did you miss that, ? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 , This was in reference to your post as to why regular DIM has less of an impact on E2 levels than BioResponse/Indolplex DIM, and I believe that the Chrysin is a big factor. Matter of fact, yesterday I ordered BAC DIM powder, the same one Louis has. Not sure yet if I will use it or not, but I wanted it to be nearby, just in case. I also keep arimidex handy, just in case. Hopefully I won't need it, but still a little early to tell. > > > > > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work, > > > > > > and I'm certain that the doctors above have done and seen a > > > > > > ton of lab results showing the effectiveness of their Dim > > > > > > regimen before going out on a limb and recommending > > > > > > it highly. > > > > > > > > > > What makes you so sure of that? > > > > > > > > > > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website > > > > > called " Chills and no libido. " You might not be so > > > > > sure after reading that thread. > > > > > > > > I read that thread and I didn't see anything in there that > > supports > > > > your assertion that these doctors statements may not be reliable. > > > > > > > > The same logic I applied to accepting Phytopharmica as a brand > > that > > > > works, is the same logic I am applying to the recommendation of > > these > > > > doctors, except that I would put far more weight on their > > > > recommendations because of their professional reputations, the > > fact > > > > that they are medical professionals, and the fact that they have > > > access > > > > to and have seen more blood work and patients. > > > > > > Quoting Dr. Crisler (Swale), " One DIM capsule, no matter (how) > > large, > > > will not drive E too low, especially on TRT. " In other words, none > > of > > > the DIM protocols HE USES will drive E2 too low. He OBVIOUSLY is > > > completely unaware of the power of PhytoPharmica Indolplex and the > > > protocols that he recommends are far, far less effective in > > lowering E2. > > > > > > One PhytoPharmica Indolplex tablet per day made me crash big time. > > It > > > did the same to Phil and many others, including specster (the guy > > who > > > started the thread). > > > > > > How did you miss that, ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 Bravo, Larry! Ever hear that song by Cake 'Going the Distance'? You have GONE, my man you have GONE.... Louis > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:38:05 -0000 > From: " lrs1951 " <stat1951@...> > Subject: Re: DIM Discussion > > Louis, > > Thanks for the information also. The patent information was amazing to > read through. I also noted that they apparently include bee pollen in > the patented bioavailable version of DIM (as is manufactured by > BioResponse for several brands, including IndolPlex). > > Larry -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.2/29 - Release Date: 6/27/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 Yes, that thread is an interesting read.... Here's the full thread.... http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134236181 He didn't specify what BRAND of DIM, so I sent him a PM and he indicated that the brand of DIM that he was using is " Source Naturals " . QUOTE (from PM): I am using " Source Naturals " DIM 100 mg. I took bloods last week, no results yet. I have used arimidex, clomid and nolvadex and I can attest that DIM is a pretty strong anti E. I was taking 100 mg every day. I cut back to 50 mg/day. END QUOTE I checked through my listings and found that Source Naturals is NOT one of the brands made by BioResponse for their private labels. In fact I checked around here and found that I had a bottle of Source Naturals DIM. It contains - per tablet - 100 mg (100 full milligrams) of DIM, 50 IU of Vitamin E, 53 mg of calcium, 50 mg of Phosphatidyl Choline, and 3 mg of Bioperine (Pepper Fruit Extract). The label says that the other substances are added to enhance the absorbability of the DIM. So it appears this individual likely had a rollercoasting E2 problem and got it under control by the use of DIM... and by tweaking his DIM. I for one have never balked at the effectiveness of DIM - with most individuals (not all, but most) in doing that.... but also noted that it was not with IndolPlex - or for that matter any other brand that BioResponse makes the patented product of " bioavailable DIM " . Has some else discovered a way to make DIM more bioavailable? Probably. Just as AndroGel was soon joined by a new competitor (Testim) who had a new way application of transdermal testosterone. In fact, a method, a proces that most posters indicate is much superior to the AndroGel.... It's called competition and it's part of the process of progress.... Larry > > > > BTW, Dr. Crisler and Dr. Nick Delgado do not recommend or use > > > > any particular brand of DIM. They do however recommend taking any > > > > regular DIM with something oily for absorption together with 3 > times > > > > as much TMG. They are happy with the results of their DIM regimen, > > > > and I also have a lot of confidence in their opinions. > > > > > > I'm very skeptical of all of these contentions. I'm not aware of > any > > > science that backs these contentions up. > > > > I think the most important evidence would be blood work, and I'm > > certain that the doctors above have done and seen a ton of lab results > > showing the effectiveness of their Dim regimen before going out on a > > limb and recommending it highly. > > What makes you so sure of that? > > I suggest you read a thread on the MESO-Rx website called " Chills and no > libido. " You might not be so sure after reading that thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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