Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 I think that there's a lot of " placebo effect " going on here. Bioresponse manufactures the same product for all of these " brand names " to sell. So whether it's PhytoPharmica or whoever, as long as it's being manufactured by Bioresponse, the DIM element is the same and is the bioavailable version. Now if - in your mind - you are convinved that version " A " works and that version " B " (beause it's cheaper or not the " original brand " or whatever) doesn't work, then it's not going to. That why sugar pills (placebo pills) often cure as many people of depression or whatever disorder is being tested as does the drug that's being tested. And of course PhytoPharmica is going to tell you a different story... they want you to buy their brand. Thepeople to talk to are the ones at BioResponse as they are making it for all of those various companies. Some at different strength levels, but otherwise just depends on what label they end up slapping on the bottle.... Or BioResponse is " ripping off " those other companies (by supplying non-bioavailable DIM!) in which case I'm sure that those other companies would like to know about that! Larry > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that if men > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard > about > > > it. > > > > > > Where is he located? I would call. > > > > > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock > > > > > down their E and lose their libido? > > > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood tests, we > > > can't > > > > say for sure what's going on. > > > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but couldn't find > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large doses. > > > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one of > the > > > young > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of > > > Indolplex. > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say. > > > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their > > > products? How > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep this > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Yes, similar items found in most DIM products. In fact, I think that some of those are part of the BioResponse Dim that are part of what enhances its availability. I note that PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM refers to itself as double strength... but doesn't explain " how " . Unless they are comparing themselves to a similar product that only has 60mg of DIM when they have 120mg of DIM. Larry > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that if men > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard > about > > > it. > > > > > > Where is he located? I would call. > > > > > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock > > > > > down their E and lose their libido? > > > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood tests, we > > > can't > > > > say for sure what's going on. > > > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but couldn't find > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large doses. > > > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one of > the > > > young > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of > > > Indolplex. > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say. > > > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their > > > products? How > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep this > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Larry, I think you are right. The ingredients listed are not anything extra. These are what is contained in BioResponse DIM. > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that if men > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard > > about > > > > it. > > > > > > > > Where is he located? I would call. > > > > > > > > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido? > > > > > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood tests, we > > > > can't > > > > > say for sure what's going on. > > > > > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but couldn't find > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large doses. > > > > > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one of > > the > > > > young > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of > > > > Indolplex. > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say. > > > > > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their > > > > products? How > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep this > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Well, I'm going to check it out. I called and ordered 3 bottles. I notice it is 150mg which makes it a wee bit stronger than the 120mg Indoplex DIM. Since I get my blood work done every week -- makes sense that I be the test pilot to try it out. I will let you know what the verdict is after I receive it and take it for a couple of weeks. Now, I've got to go see my doctor and check out what this week's test results show. Catch you later.... Gene > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that if men > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard > > about > > > > it. > > > > > > > > Where is he located? I would call. > > > > > > > > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido? > > > > > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood tests, we > > > > can't > > > > > say for sure what's going on. > > > > > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but couldn't find > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large doses. > > > > > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one of > > the > > > > young > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of > > > > Indolplex. > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say. > > > > > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their > > > > products? How > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep this > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 The frist I ever head of Bioresponse making Indolplex/DIM was today said he talked to them and they told him this tell me if I am wrong " once I though I was but I was mistaken. :-) " So lets leave it there unless Z has some input. I can't realy say. Phil lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote: I think that there's a lot of " placebo effect " going on here. Bioresponse manufactures the same product for all of these " brand names " to sell. So whether it's PhytoPharmica or whoever, as long as it's being manufactured by Bioresponse, the DIM element is the same and is the bioavailable version. Now if - in your mind - you are convinved that version " A " works and that version " B " (beause it's cheaper or not the " original brand " or whatever) doesn't work, then it's not going to. That why sugar pills (placebo pills) often cure as many people of depression or whatever disorder is being tested as does the drug that's being tested. And of course PhytoPharmica is going to tell you a different story... they want you to buy their brand. Thepeople to talk to are the ones at BioResponse as they are making it for all of those various companies. Some at different strength levels, but otherwise just depends on what label they end up slapping on the bottle.... Or BioResponse is " ripping off " those other companies (by supplying non-bioavailable DIM!) in which case I'm sure that those other companies would like to know about that! Larry > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that if men > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard > about > > > it. > > > > > > Where is he located? I would call. > > > > > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock > > > > > down their E and lose their libido? > > > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood tests, we > > > can't > > > > say for sure what's going on. > > > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but couldn't find > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large doses. > > > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one of > the > > > young > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of > > > Indolplex. > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say. > > > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their > > > products? How > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep this > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 This is a copy and paste from their website. It says that they sell it to them. Has anyone ever done any blood tests taking the different products, which conclusively proves this? A. Zeligs, M.D., is the founder of BioResponse Nutrients and the inventor of bioavailable Diindolylmethane. This highly- absorbable, patented, and clinically-tested form of Diindolylmethane is sold both under the BioResponse brand name and under license through leading distributors of nutritional supplements. In its pure, crystalline state, Diindolymethane is poorly absorbed by the human body. Our bioavailable Diindolymethane is the only patented, absorption-enhanced formulation for Diindolylmethane. For maximum absorption, be sure to choose a Diindolylmethane supplement that lists " BioResponse " on the label. > > Thanks for the http://www.bio-response.com/ link. I called them up > > and asked them about the DIM from Puritan's Pride, Nature's Way, and > > Phytopharmica Indolplex. They told me that these products all use > > EXACTLY the same DIM which they manufacture and supply to them. > > That's not my understanding. > > Zeligs owns the Indolplex patent and trademark. He licenses the rights > to various manufacturers to manufacture the product. Each manufacturer > makes their own product. > > Anyone who is knowledgeable about supplements knows that quality > standards vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Unlike > pharmaceuticals, these products are not regulated for quality. Studies > have shown that about half of the supplements on the market don't > contain anything near what the label says they do. That would explain > the variations by product. > > Also, the Nature's Way product contains other ingredients. It's not the > same product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 I rest my case. Phil Z <davidzxxx2004@...> wrote: > Thanks for the http://www.bio-response.com/ link. I called them up > and asked them about the DIM from Puritan's Pride, Nature's Way, and > Phytopharmica Indolplex. They told me that these products all use > EXACTLY the same DIM which they manufacture and supply to them. That's not my understanding. Zeligs owns the Indolplex patent and trademark. He licenses the rights to various manufacturers to manufacture the product. Each manufacturer makes their own product. Anyone who is knowledgeable about supplements knows that quality standards vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Unlike pharmaceuticals, these products are not regulated for quality. Studies have shown that about half of the supplements on the market don't contain anything near what the label says they do. That would explain the variations by product. Also, the Nature's Way product contains other ingredients. It's not the same product. --------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 I object your honor. LOL > > Thanks for the http://www.bio-response.com/ link. I called them up > > and asked them about the DIM from Puritan's Pride, Nature's Way, and > > Phytopharmica Indolplex. They told me that these products all use > > EXACTLY the same DIM which they manufacture and supply to them. > > That's not my understanding. > > Zeligs owns the Indolplex patent and trademark. He licenses the rights > to various manufacturers to manufacture the product. Each manufacturer > makes their own product. > > Anyone who is knowledgeable about supplements knows that quality > standards vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Unlike > pharmaceuticals, these products are not regulated for quality. Studies > have shown that about half of the supplements on the market don't > contain anything near what the label says they do. That would explain > the variations by product. > > Also, the Nature's Way product contains other ingredients. It's not the > same product. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Yes I did a lot of them trying different things like DIM and Evesta nothing worked then I got my Dr. to try Arimidex and this got me down but to stay down it makes me go to low I was taking 1/4 of a one mg. pill every 5 days and was going to low. Then Z told me the name of the DIM he uses and I got it and low and behold it worked. Phil invest99_2000 <no_reply > wrote: This is a copy and paste from their website. It says that they sell it to them. Has anyone ever done any blood tests taking the different products, which conclusively proves this? A. Zeligs, M.D., is the founder of BioResponse Nutrients and the inventor of bioavailable Diindolylmethane. This highly- absorbable, patented, and clinically-tested form of Diindolylmethane is sold both under the BioResponse brand name and under license through leading distributors of nutritional supplements. In its pure, crystalline state, Diindolymethane is poorly absorbed by the human body. Our bioavailable Diindolymethane is the only patented, absorption-enhanced formulation for Diindolylmethane. For maximum absorption, be sure to choose a Diindolylmethane supplement that lists " BioResponse " on the label. > > Thanks for the http://www.bio-response.com/ link. I called them up > > and asked them about the DIM from Puritan's Pride, Nature's Way, and > > Phytopharmica Indolplex. They told me that these products all use > > EXACTLY the same DIM which they manufacture and supply to them. > > That's not my understanding. > > Zeligs owns the Indolplex patent and trademark. He licenses the rights > to various manufacturers to manufacture the product. Each manufacturer > makes their own product. > > Anyone who is knowledgeable about supplements knows that quality > standards vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Unlike > pharmaceuticals, these products are not regulated for quality. Studies > have shown that about half of the supplements on the market don't > contain anything near what the label says they do. That would explain > the variations by product. > > Also, the Nature's Way product contains other ingredients. It's not the > same product. --------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 > This is a copy and paste from their website. > It says that they sell it to them. That's not the way I read it. > This highly absorbable, patented, and clinically-tested form > of Diindolylmethane is sold both under the BioResponse > brand name and under license through leading distributors > of nutritional supplements. It does NOT say they sell it to them. It says that " this...form of DIM " is sold under the BioResponse brand name and under *license*... " Do you undersatnd what a license is? > Has anyone ever done any blood tests taking the different > products, which conclusively proves this? That's a good question. Phil's experience is pretty conclusive to me. Phil had no response to Nature's Way DIM. Then he went on PhytoPharmica and had spontaneous rock hard boners. In fact, he didn't even correlate the two until I mentioned it to him. Phil was pretty skeptical until that happened. This story is documented in this group, if you can access the archives. Also, when I participated in the alt.support.impotence newsgroup there were a few stories similar to Phil's. But, no doubt, blood tests would be the best measure of all. I know you'd like to find a cheaper product that does the same job. But it's pretty clear to me that Nature's Way is cheaper, but doesn't do the job. By all means, go for it. Give it a try and let us know what your results are. Unfortunately what's happened in the past is that people try the inferior product and it doesn't work and then they say that DIM doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 , I take " under licence " to mean that they are licenced to use the BioResponse name. I'm not sure it means they manufacture it. I place a lot more weight on yours and Phil's personal experiences. I just am trying to find a logical reason as to why something that is supposed to be exactly the same, has different results. A Dr. Nick Delgado says that he recommends that regular DIM be taken with something oily such as EFA's to help absorption. He claims a dosage of 300mg is effective for him and his patients. You can read more about it here: http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/showthread.php? s= & threadid=7855 & highlight=dim+absorption I have just never been a big fan of monopolies. I would like to think that there are always alternatives. > > This is a copy and paste from their website. > > It says that they sell it to them. > > That's not the way I read it. > > > This highly absorbable, patented, and clinically-tested form > > of Diindolylmethane is sold both under the BioResponse > > brand name and under license through leading distributors > > of nutritional supplements. > > It does NOT say they sell it to them. It says that " this...form of DIM " > is sold under the BioResponse brand name and under *license*... " Do you > undersatnd what a license is? > > > Has anyone ever done any blood tests taking the different > > products, which conclusively proves this? > > That's a good question. Phil's experience is pretty conclusive to me. > Phil had no response to Nature's Way DIM. Then he went on PhytoPharmica > and had spontaneous rock hard boners. In fact, he didn't even correlate > the two until I mentioned it to him. Phil was pretty skeptical until > that happened. This story is documented in this group, if you can > access the archives. > > Also, when I participated in the alt.support.impotence newsgroup there > were a few stories similar to Phil's. But, no doubt, blood tests would > be the best measure of all. > > I know you'd like to find a cheaper product that does the same job. But > it's pretty clear to me that Nature's Way is cheaper, but doesn't do the > job. > > By all means, go for it. Give it a try and let us know what your > results are. Unfortunately what's happened in the past is that people > try the inferior product and it doesn't work and then they say that DIM > doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the indoplex bio > DIM even those who are not on T will knock down their E and lose > their libido? > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but couldn't find there > whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large doses. > > It makes no sense to me, and just trying to learn why. > > Greg Hi Greg, Both among bodybuilding acquaintances and in the earlier days on the message board there were some people that took a somewhat adolescent view about their drug use. Because testosterone was a " male " hormone and estradiol was a " female " hormone, they decided that an unlimited amount of testosterone (or " free " testosterone, or bioavailable t, depending upon which particular burr was under their saddle) was necessarily good and that any estradiol was bad or at best an annoyance. So the result was men on high doses of test taking either arimidex or femara. They would use the full dose of 1mg of arimidex/day. Invariably (and even after having been warned) the overdose destroyed their libido till they went off it. I don't necessarily know why you need some estradiol for libido but then I don't precisely what causes or drives libido in the first place. If the product & Phil use is effective at lowering estradiol, I think it is entirely possible that one's libido could suffer. As for why some are able to use high DIM doses, they might have relatively high levels of estradiol to begin with or they are geared up. Or they could be using a product that is ineffective. Regardless of which product you use, I would strongly encourage you to get blood test so you know the product is doing what it is supposed to do. Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 RE: BioResponse and IndoPlex Okay, I e-mailed BioResponse and asked directly what was going on with their " bioavailable DIM " .... Here's a part of the resposne that I got back: QUOTE: BioResponse LLC is the " raw material manufacturer " with Dr. Zeligs, the patent holder on the delivery system for absorbable formulation. We license our trademarks including the names Indolplex , BioDIM, DIM, DIM-Plus, DIM Pro to different companies. They sell the identical product. You can tell on bottles if it is our patented formulation if it says, " licensed by BioResponse LLC. " The only difference might be in dosage. Tyler/Enzymatic Therapy for instance sells Indolplex with capsules that each contains 15 mgs of the active ingredient (contained in 60mg formulated product). The patented formulation contains a minimum of 25% of the active in the formulation.... We (also) sell under our own brand name of " BioResponse DIM " . Individuals that need just enough for hormone balancing are fine with the lower amounts; those that need to take more find ours to be more economical. We have an informational website www.dimfaq.com as well as our home page www.bioresponse.com Zeligs, M.D. has published various articles on the subject that you might find interesting. Hopefully that answers the questions you may have about the various " names " of our BioResponse DIM. END QUOTE The e-mail didn't quite answer all of the questions that I asked, but it's clear that it's the same " core ingredient " in the various brands, they just might be at different strength levels (i.e., product A has 60 mg of BioResponse DIM while product B has 100 mg, etc., etc... but it's still the same primary ingredient of BioResponse's manufactured " bioavailable DIM " ..... Larry > > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that > if men > > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard > > > about > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > Where is he located? I would call. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the > > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock > > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido? > > > > > > > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood > tests, we > > > > > can't > > > > > > say for sure what's going on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but > couldn't find > > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large > doses. > > > > > > > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one > of > > > the > > > > > young > > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of > > > > > Indolplex. > > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their > > > > > products? How > > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep > this > > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 Dave, See my prior post. It's clear that BioResposne manufactures the " bioavailable DIM " that Dr. Zeligs patented. They appeared to have initially marketed as the IndolPlex brand through PhytoPharmica. I think that's where the breakdown in understanding has occurred. When it was just the IndoPlex brand, others were selling DIM and claiming it also was " bioavailable " (for example Source Naturals marketed a DIM product that contained " bioperine " for supposed " enhanced bioavailability). Also, most brands don't actually manufacture their own supplements. They obtain them from wholesale manufacturers who manufacture to customers specifications and then the appropriate brand name label is slapped on it! But since then BioResponse has then gone on to manufacture the same formula for several other brands. That has been made clear now in a couple telephone calls and an e-mail response. IndolPlex might be better than another brand that is selling the same BioResponse manufactured DIM only because it has more of the DIM (let's say 120 mg versus 60 mg). But if you're cutting a pill in half, why not just take the (probably cheaper) 60 mg version (as long as it is the trademarked BioResponse DIM)? As always, just my humble opinion. Larry > > Thanks for the http://www.bio-response.com/ link. I called them up > > and asked them about the DIM from Puritan's Pride, Nature's Way, and > > Phytopharmica Indolplex. They told me that these products all use > > EXACTLY the same DIM which they manufacture and supply to them. > > That's not my understanding. > > Zeligs owns the Indolplex patent and trademark. He licenses the rights > to various manufacturers to manufacture the product. Each manufacturer > makes their own product. > > Anyone who is knowledgeable about supplements knows that quality > standards vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Unlike > pharmaceuticals, these products are not regulated for quality. Studies > have shown that about half of the supplements on the market don't > contain anything near what the label says they do. That would explain > the variations by product. > > Also, the Nature's Way product contains other ingredients. It's not the > same product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 My BioResponse DIM should arrive on Monday. I'll start taking it and will report my findings after the first week and second week of my test trial. I've still got PLENTY of Indoplex DIM (last time we ordered it, we got either 10 or a dozen bottles) so I'm not worried about being without any DIM. Your Gynny-Pig, Gene lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote: RE: BioResponse and IndoPlex Okay, I e-mailed BioResponse and asked directly what was going on with their " bioavailable DIM " .... Here's a part of the resposne that I got back: QUOTE: BioResponse LLC is the " raw material manufacturer " with Dr. Zeligs, the patent holder on the delivery system for absorbable formulation. We license our trademarks including the names Indolplex , BioDIM, DIM, DIM-Plus, DIM Pro to different companies. They sell the identical product. You can tell on bottles if it is our patented formulation if it says, " licensed by BioResponse LLC. " The only difference might be in dosage. Tyler/Enzymatic Therapy for instance sells Indolplex with capsules that each contains 15 mgs of the active ingredient (contained in 60mg formulated product). The patented formulation contains a minimum of 25% of the active in the formulation.... We (also) sell under our own brand name of " BioResponse DIM " . Individuals that need just enough for hormone balancing are fine with the lower amounts; those that need to take more find ours to be more economical. We have an informational website www.dimfaq.com as well as our home page www.bioresponse.com Zeligs, M.D. has published various articles on the subject that you might find interesting. Hopefully that answers the questions you may have about the various " names " of our BioResponse DIM. END QUOTE The e-mail didn't quite answer all of the questions that I asked, but it's clear that it's the same " core ingredient " in the various brands, they just might be at different strength levels (i.e., product A has 60 mg of BioResponse DIM while product B has 100 mg, etc., etc... but it's still the same primary ingredient of BioResponse's manufactured " bioavailable DIM " ..... Larry > > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that > if men > > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard > > > about > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > Where is he located? I would call. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the > > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock > > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido? > > > > > > > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood > tests, we > > > > > can't > > > > > > say for sure what's going on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but > couldn't find > > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large > doses. > > > > > > > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one > of > > > the > > > > > young > > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of > > > > > Indolplex. > > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their > > > > > products? How > > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep > this > > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 They've got an " 800 number " that you can call and ask them for yourself.... they must be wondering what's going on, because I also called them (and they seemed perplexed at the calls they were getting... LOL). I advised them that I was the one who had sent the e-mail and wanted to make sure that the e-mail response was as I understood it. And, yes, they were adamant... they DO manufacture the same exact " bioavailable DIM " for those other brands that they do for IndolPlex. They emphasized that different brands have different strength levels. Brand A and brand B might both have 100mg while brand C has 60 mg and brand D has 120 mg... but it is the SAME potency (otherwise) " bioavailable DIM " manufactured under under U.S. patent 6,086,915. of Dr. Zeligs... It sounded like they were starting to get irate that people wouldn't believe them... but PLEASE call, I ain't making this up! As to Phil's experience, that sure isn't a very scientific production. One or two or ten men's ancedotal experience is just that. Aside from the fact that his experience could have been from a number of things (testosterone receptors finally getting used to the increased T levels, etc., etc.), it could have boiled down to this... First of all, when was Phil taking Nature's Way DIM? Was it BEFORE they got an agreement with BioResponse to sell the BioResponse DIM version? If so, then, yes, Phil WAS taking an inferior product. He was taking a DIM version that wasn't bioavailable. OR.... Let's say Phil was taking a Nature's Way DIM (I think it's called DIM Plus) that DID contain the bioavailable BioResponse DIM. But let's say that the Nature's Way DIM Plus only had 60 mg of bioavailable DIM per tablet. And he took it for a month. And " didn't feel shit so this must not be working " . And then you take the IndolPlex brand that has 120 mg per tablet... or twice as much. And after a couple of weeks suddenly there's a difference. Well, with twice the dosage there should be a difference! OR.... Natural supplements simply don't work immediately. At the very least they generally take days to work... sometimes weeks or even longer. We see that with the T that we take (which is basically a natural substance as compared to an artificial steroid. Yes, it is " synthesized " from soy or wild yams but is moleculary identical so it is " natural " . And taking it as a " booster " almost never results in immediate results. It just doesn't work that way. In fact, for a lot of guys the " boosting effect " takes longer than days, often takes weeks or even months for the T to start making a noticeable difference, no? Anyway, for all we know, the Nature's Way version was " chipping away " at the E2 levels and the InolPlex version came along about the time the dramatic drop happened... and ended up getting all of the credit! OR... There's always the previously mentioned placebo effect... If I absolutely believe that brand A is better than brand B - even though they might be exactly the same down to the smallest molecule and the same strength level down to the micromillimeter, well, I'll simply do better on brand A. IMHO there's changes that happen with products and processes that sometimes simply aren't kept up with. Calling brands (that have been researched to contain the same exact substance) " inferior " is not called for under those circumstances. QUOTE: BioResponse LLC is the " raw material manufacturer " with Dr. Zeligs, the patent holder on the delivery system for absorbable formulation. We license our trademarks including the names Indolplex , BioDIM, DIM, DIM-Plus, DIM Pro to different companies. They sell the identical product. You can tell on bottles if it is our patented formulation if it says, " licensed by BioResponse LLC. " END QUOTE Emphasis... THEY SELL THE IDENTICAL PRODUCT Larry > > This is a copy and paste from their website. > > It says that they sell it to them. > > That's not the way I read it. > > > This highly absorbable, patented, and clinically-tested form > > of Diindolylmethane is sold both under the BioResponse > > brand name and under license through leading distributors > > of nutritional supplements. > > It does NOT say they sell it to them. It says that " this...form of DIM " > is sold under the BioResponse brand name and under *license*... " Do you > undersatnd what a license is? > > > Has anyone ever done any blood tests taking the different > > products, which conclusively proves this? > > That's a good question. Phil's experience is pretty conclusive to me. > Phil had no response to Nature's Way DIM. Then he went on PhytoPharmica > and had spontaneous rock hard boners. In fact, he didn't even correlate > the two until I mentioned it to him. Phil was pretty skeptical until > that happened. This story is documented in this group, if you can > access the archives. > > Also, when I participated in the alt.support.impotence newsgroup there > were a few stories similar to Phil's. But, no doubt, blood tests would > be the best measure of all. > > I know you'd like to find a cheaper product that does the same job. But > it's pretty clear to me that Nature's Way is cheaper, but doesn't do the > job. > > By all means, go for it. Give it a try and let us know what your > results are. Unfortunately what's happened in the past is that people > try the inferior product and it doesn't work and then they say that DIM > doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 Larry, Thanks for doing the extra leg work to clarify this. > > > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that > > if men > > > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard > > > > about > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Where is he located? I would call. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the > > > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock > > > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood > > tests, we > > > > > > can't > > > > > > > say for sure what's going on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but > > couldn't find > > > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large > > doses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one > > of > > > > the > > > > > > young > > > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of > > > > > > Indolplex. > > > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their > > > > > > products? How > > > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep > > this > > > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 Gene, Thanks for being the Gynny-Pig. LOL Regards, > > > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think that > > if men > > > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have heard > > > > about > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Where is he located? I would call. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the > > > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will knock > > > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood > > tests, we > > > > > > can't > > > > > > > say for sure what's going on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but > > couldn't find > > > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large > > doses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to one > > of > > > > the > > > > > > young > > > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages of > > > > > > Indolplex. > > > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for their > > > > > > products? How > > > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to keep > > this > > > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 Unfortunately I think for some people that this won't clarify it. Just takes an e-mail - or a simple phone call... I did that also to get a couple things from the e-mail clarified to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding things. Personallly I think that a lot has to do with placebo effect. I also found out that you can purchase direct from BioResponse their own brand version of DIM only it is even " stronger " than IndolPlex as it has 150 mg rather than 120 mg like IndolPlex has.... One other thing that was never addressed. In the BioResponse formula, when it says 120 mg, it does NOT mean there's 120mg of DIM there. The total product is 120mg with only a part of that being DIM. The proprietary formula, the patented formula, )no matter what brand it is, IndolPlex or Nature's Way or BioResponse, etc.) contains the following: .... " modified food starch, 25% diindolylmethane (DIM), d-alpha tocopheryl succinate, silicon dioxide, and phosphatidylcholine " ... Of course the exact formulation isn't listed, but that's it. Also, Dr. Zeligs didn't " invent " DIM, he was awarded a U.S. Patent for absorption-enhanced Diindolylmethane (DIM). Someone in an earlier post (?) questioned what the patent number was. It is U.S. patent 6,086,915. And I am sure, absolutely sure, that other forms of processes to enhance absorption of DIM will come along. Products marketed with BioResponse DIM will come down inprice then as the competition will be there for various bioavailable DIM products (muchas we have seen the prices come down once BioResponse marketed their DIM to other brands besides just IndolPlex). BTW, check out this link: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=397142 Larry > > > > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think > that > > > if men > > > > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have > heard > > > > > about > > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where is he located? I would call. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the > > > > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will > knock > > > > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood > > > tests, we > > > > > > > can't > > > > > > > > say for sure what's going on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but > > > couldn't find > > > > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large > > > doses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to > one > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > young > > > > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages > of > > > > > > > Indolplex. > > > > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for > their > > > > > > > products? How > > > > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to > keep > > > this > > > > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 Hi Larry: It is the BioResponse version that I purchased and should receive on Monday. I'm anxious to see what those 150mg will do!!! -- LOL! I completely understand that I'm not getting 150mg of DIM -- no need for you to go over that one more time. ;-) Anywho -- we'll see if there is any marked difference. I'll give it awhirl and let everyone know. Official Group Gynny Pig, Gene lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote: Unfortunately I think for some people that this won't clarify it. Just takes an e-mail - or a simple phone call... I did that also to get a couple things from the e-mail clarified to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding things. Personallly I think that a lot has to do with placebo effect. I also found out that you can purchase direct from BioResponse their own brand version of DIM only it is even " stronger " than IndolPlex as it has 150 mg rather than 120 mg like IndolPlex has.... One other thing that was never addressed. In the BioResponse formula, when it says 120 mg, it does NOT mean there's 120mg of DIM there. The total product is 120mg with only a part of that being DIM. The proprietary formula, the patented formula, )no matter what brand it is, IndolPlex or Nature's Way or BioResponse, etc.) contains the following: .... " modified food starch, 25% diindolylmethane (DIM), d-alpha tocopheryl succinate, silicon dioxide, and phosphatidylcholine " ... Of course the exact formulation isn't listed, but that's it. Also, Dr. Zeligs didn't " invent " DIM, he was awarded a U.S. Patent for absorption-enhanced Diindolylmethane (DIM). Someone in an earlier post (?) questioned what the patent number was. It is U.S. patent 6,086,915. And I am sure, absolutely sure, that other forms of processes to enhance absorption of DIM will come along. Products marketed with BioResponse DIM will come down inprice then as the competition will be there for various bioavailable DIM products (muchas we have seen the prices come down once BioResponse marketed their DIM to other brands besides just IndolPlex). BTW, check out this link: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=397142 Larry > > > > > > > > >That would be good if they did that. I would think > that > > > if men > > > > > > > were losing their libidos left and right we would have > heard > > > > > about > > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where is he located? I would call. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , you are saying that anybody who is taking the > > > > > > > > > indoplex bio DIM even those who are not on T will > knock > > > > > > > > > down their E and lose their libido? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theoretically, yes. But unless we can see some blood > > > tests, we > > > > > > > can't > > > > > > > > say for sure what's going on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do the authors, whome I tried to contact but > > > couldn't find > > > > > > > > > there whereabouts, say no side effect of taking large > > > doses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I called Zelig's company a few years ago and talked to > one > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > young > > > > > > > > doctors about my powerful response to very low dosages > of > > > > > > > Indolplex. > > > > > > > > She didn't have a whole lot to say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't they publish some blood test results for > their > > > > > > > products? How > > > > > > > > easy that would be to do? They obviously prefer to > keep > > > this > > > > > > > > information to themselves for whatever reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 Well, will wonders never cease.... Here is the link to the patent... http://tinyurl.com/c9dnr or http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1 & Sect2=HITOFF & d=PALL & p=1 & u=/\ netahtml/srchnum.htm & r=1 & f=G & l=50 & s1=6,086,915.WKU. & OS=PN/6,086,915 & RS=PN/6,086,\ 915 where it essntially states vitamin E plus chrysin is the secret to DIM absorption. Also, their experimental data clearly show it doesn't work AT ALL for some people. So this may be the answer to why it hasn't worked for certain people. Just thought you guys (and girls) would like to know.... Louis > Message: 17 > Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:03:01 -0000 > From: " lrs1951 " <stat1951@...> > Subject: Re: DIM Discussion > > They've got an " 800 number " that you can call and ask them for > yourself.... they must be wondering what's going on, because I also > called them (and they seemed perplexed at the calls they were > getting... LOL). > > I advised them that I was the one who had sent the e-mail and wanted > to make sure that the e-mail response was as I understood it. And, > yes, they were adamant... they DO manufacture the same exact > " bioavailable DIM " for those other brands that they do for IndolPlex. > They emphasized that different brands have different strength levels. > Brand A and brand B might both have 100mg while brand C has 60 mg and > brand D has 120 mg... but it is the SAME potency (otherwise) > " bioavailable DIM " manufactured under under U.S. patent 6,086,915. of > Dr. Zeligs... > > It sounded like they were starting to get irate that people wouldn't > believe them... but PLEASE call, I ain't making this up! > > As to Phil's experience, that sure isn't a very scientific production. > One or two or ten men's ancedotal experience is just that. Aside from > the fact that his experience could have been from a number of things > (testosterone receptors finally getting used to the increased T > levels, etc., etc.), it could have boiled down to this... > > First of all, when was Phil taking Nature's Way DIM? Was it BEFORE > they got an agreement with BioResponse to sell the BioResponse DIM > version? If so, then, yes, Phil WAS taking an inferior product. He was > taking a DIM version that wasn't bioavailable. > > OR.... > > Let's say Phil was taking a Nature's Way DIM (I think it's called DIM > Plus) that DID contain the bioavailable BioResponse DIM. But let's say > that the Nature's Way DIM Plus only had 60 mg of bioavailable DIM per > tablet. And he took it for a month. And " didn't feel shit so this must > not be working " . And then you take the IndolPlex brand that has 120 mg > per tablet... or twice as much. And after a couple of weeks suddenly > there's a difference. Well, with twice the dosage there should be a > difference! > > OR.... > > Natural supplements simply don't work immediately. At the very least > they generally take days to work... sometimes weeks or even longer. > We see that with the T that we take (which is basically a natural > substance as compared to an artificial steroid. Yes, it is > " synthesized " from soy or wild yams but is moleculary identical so it > is " natural " . And taking it as a " booster " almost never results in > immediate results. It just doesn't work that way. In fact, for a lot > of guys the " boosting effect " takes longer than days, often takes > weeks or even months for the T to start making a noticeable > difference, no? > > Anyway, for all we know, the Nature's Way version was " chipping away " > at the E2 levels and the InolPlex version came along about the time > the dramatic drop happened... and ended up getting all of the credit! > > OR... > > There's always the previously mentioned placebo effect... If I > absolutely believe that brand A is better than brand B - even though > they might be exactly the same down to the smallest molecule and the > same strength level down to the micromillimeter, well, I'll simply do > better on brand A. > > IMHO there's changes that happen with products and processes that > sometimes simply aren't kept up with. Calling brands (that have been > researched to contain the same exact substance) " inferior " is not > called for under those circumstances. > > QUOTE: BioResponse LLC is the " raw material manufacturer " with Dr. > Zeligs, the patent holder on the delivery system for absorbable > formulation. We license our trademarks including the names Indolplex , > BioDIM, DIM, DIM-Plus, DIM Pro to different companies. They sell the > identical product. You can tell on bottles if it is our patented > formulation if it says, " licensed by BioResponse LLC. " > END QUOTE > > Emphasis... THEY SELL THE IDENTICAL PRODUCT > > > Larry -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.1/28 - Release Date: 6/24/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2005 Report Share Posted June 26, 2005 Louis, Thanks for finding this information. It's very interesting. I'm really surprised that one of the ingredients is Chrysin. Chrysin is a powerfull anti-aromatase in itself. > Well, will wonders never cease.... > > Here is the link to the patent... > > http://tinyurl.com/c9dnr > > or > > http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser? Sect1=PTO1 & Sect2=HITOFF & d=PALL & p=1 & u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm & r=1 & f=G & l=5 0 & s1=6,086,915.WKU. & OS=PN/6,086,915 & RS=PN/6,086,915 > > where it essntially states vitamin E plus chrysin is the secret to DIM > absorption. Also, their experimental data clearly show it doesn't work > AT ALL for some people. So this may be the answer to why it hasn't > worked for certain people. > > > Just thought you guys (and girls) would like to know.... > > > Louis > > > > > Message: 17 > > Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:03:01 -0000 > > From: " lrs1951 " <stat1951@s...> > > Subject: Re: DIM Discussion > > > > They've got an " 800 number " that you can call and ask them for > > yourself.... they must be wondering what's going on, because I also > > called them (and they seemed perplexed at the calls they were > > getting... LOL). > > > > I advised them that I was the one who had sent the e-mail and wanted > > to make sure that the e-mail response was as I understood it. And, > > yes, they were adamant... they DO manufacture the same exact > > " bioavailable DIM " for those other brands that they do for IndolPlex. > > They emphasized that different brands have different strength levels. > > Brand A and brand B might both have 100mg while brand C has 60 mg and > > brand D has 120 mg... but it is the SAME potency (otherwise) > > " bioavailable DIM " manufactured under under U.S. patent 6,086,915. of > > Dr. Zeligs... > > > > It sounded like they were starting to get irate that people wouldn't > > believe them... but PLEASE call, I ain't making this up! > > > > As to Phil's experience, that sure isn't a very scientific production. > > One or two or ten men's ancedotal experience is just that. Aside from > > the fact that his experience could have been from a number of things > > (testosterone receptors finally getting used to the increased T > > levels, etc., etc.), it could have boiled down to this... > > > > First of all, when was Phil taking Nature's Way DIM? Was it BEFORE > > they got an agreement with BioResponse to sell the BioResponse DIM > > version? If so, then, yes, Phil WAS taking an inferior product. He was > > taking a DIM version that wasn't bioavailable. > > > > OR.... > > > > Let's say Phil was taking a Nature's Way DIM (I think it's called DIM > > Plus) that DID contain the bioavailable BioResponse DIM. But let's say > > that the Nature's Way DIM Plus only had 60 mg of bioavailable DIM per > > tablet. And he took it for a month. And " didn't feel shit so this must > > not be working " . And then you take the IndolPlex brand that has 120 mg > > per tablet... or twice as much. And after a couple of weeks suddenly > > there's a difference. Well, with twice the dosage there should be a > > difference! > > > > OR.... > > > > Natural supplements simply don't work immediately. At the very least > > they generally take days to work... sometimes weeks or even longer. > > We see that with the T that we take (which is basically a natural > > substance as compared to an artificial steroid. Yes, it is > > " synthesized " from soy or wild yams but is moleculary identical so it > > is " natural " . And taking it as a " booster " almost never results in > > immediate results. It just doesn't work that way. In fact, for a lot > > of guys the " boosting effect " takes longer than days, often takes > > weeks or even months for the T to start making a noticeable > > difference, no? > > > > Anyway, for all we know, the Nature's Way version was " chipping away " > > at the E2 levels and the InolPlex version came along about the time > > the dramatic drop happened... and ended up getting all of the credit! > > > > OR... > > > > There's always the previously mentioned placebo effect... If I > > absolutely believe that brand A is better than brand B - even though > > they might be exactly the same down to the smallest molecule and the > > same strength level down to the micromillimeter, well, I'll simply do > > better on brand A. > > > > IMHO there's changes that happen with products and processes that > > sometimes simply aren't kept up with. Calling brands (that have been > > researched to contain the same exact substance) " inferior " is not > > called for under those circumstances. > > > > QUOTE: BioResponse LLC is the " raw material manufacturer " with Dr. > > Zeligs, the patent holder on the delivery system for absorbable > > formulation. We license our trademarks including the names Indolplex , > > BioDIM, DIM, DIM-Plus, DIM Pro to different companies. They sell the > > identical product. You can tell on bottles if it is our patented > > formulation if it says, " licensed by BioResponse LLC. " > > END QUOTE > > > > Emphasis... THEY SELL THE IDENTICAL PRODUCT > > > > > > Larry > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.1/28 - Release Date: 6/24/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2005 Report Share Posted June 26, 2005 > I could care less about trying a different brand of DIM I have > something that works. WTF would I want to take a chance > on a cheaper brand of DIM after all the crap I went though > trying to find something that worked. Exactly, Phil! Sometimes I wonder about what some people's priorities are. I could see if someone tried PhytoPharmica, and it worked, and then tried a cheaper brand to see if it worked, too, and then reported back to the group about their experience. That would be helpful. But knowing that DIM doesn't work on everyone, and knowing that there's a lot of good evidence about PhytoPharmica, and some bad (albeit anecdotal) evidence about the cheaper brand(s), why would anyone try the cheaper brand first? And the fact that they would waste everyone's time here to save a couple of bucks shows how little they value our time. But to argue here about a cheaper brand before trying it (or even PhytoPharmica?) is very frustrating to me and just not helpful to anyone. Again, sometimes I wonder what some people's priorities are. And sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to help such people who can't even seem to help themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2005 Report Share Posted June 26, 2005 > Personallly I think that a lot has to do with placebo effect. Larry, please be more specific. What, specifically, do you think is due to " the placebo effect? " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 Z, It looks like you are taking personal the fact that anybody is prepared to discuss any alternative besides the Phytopharmica Indolplex DIM that you recommend. This is a forum for open discussion and learning. Discussing any other product besides the product you recommend is not any attempt to demean your advice or the product you use. On the contrary, I am sure, everyone values your experiences and advice. Through open discussion and exchange we have discovered so far that regular DIM seems to work taken with oils and as recommended by a reputable doctor that is using it this way himself as well as his patients, which I am sure is verified by labs. We have also discovered through open discussion and exchange that Chrysin is a major component of Bioresponse DIM, which may not be desireable to some people. The more information and options that are available to people in the group, the better. Your response gives the impression that you are very opinionated, and has the effect of stifling open discussion and exchange on any subject, and that is not cool. If you do not wish to participate in any particular subject, just hit the delete button. > > I could care less about trying a different brand of DIM I have > > something that works. WTF would I want to take a chance > > on a cheaper brand of DIM after all the crap I went though > > trying to find something that worked. > > Exactly, Phil! > > Sometimes I wonder about what some people's priorities are. > > I could see if someone tried PhytoPharmica, and it worked, and then > tried a cheaper brand to see if it worked, too, and then reported back > to the group about their experience. That would be helpful. > > But knowing that DIM doesn't work on everyone, and knowing that there's > a lot of good evidence about PhytoPharmica, and some bad (albeit > anecdotal) evidence about the cheaper brand(s), why would anyone try the > cheaper brand first? And the fact that they would waste everyone's time > here to save a couple of bucks shows how little they value our time. > > But to argue here about a cheaper brand before trying it (or even > PhytoPharmica?) is very frustrating to me and just not helpful to > anyone. > > Again, sometimes I wonder what some people's priorities are. And > sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to help such people who can't > even seem to help themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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