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Hi Vicki,

Thanks, today was a better day. I deserved that.

I am so excited about Gettysburg,

Hugs,

Connie

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Hi Ellen,

Thank you for your very " on the money " response to the school situation. I

think I remember your saying that you were a teacher (English?). You are so

right about the teachers feeling like they have been put in a position

without the proper tools to deal with it and as a result " out of control. "

This is especially true when their main job is to teach to a set curriculum

with passing tests and school standards breathing down their backs. I often

feel that teachers are like someone thrown into the sea without a lifeline in

the classroom where there are children with special needs. I feel that there

is a disconnect in my son's school at least, between what we discuss at CSE

meetings, with his guidance counselor, and the school psychologist and what

is actually followed through in the classrooms. The teachers may have the

hard cold facts on paper but not the depth of background that is often

needed. We have made it a practice to meet with the teachers individually to

discuss my son's difficulties, and make ourselves available to them if they

have any questions. We have found that we are often looked upon as

overprotective parents and recently feel as though they are trying to take

the control of my son's education and mental well-being upon themselves

cutting us out. They say that this is high school and he has to take

responsibility for himself. This really bothers me since I truly wonder if

they really don't think that this is what my husband and I want as well. If

it were only that simple .... to have the school tell him this is what you

must do, and for him to be able to do it. I think it really illustrates what

a long way they still have to come to understand special needs children.

With my son, there has always been a problem with consistency. He can be

doing great for a period of time and then completely shut down. In a system

that is used to building on the success of a child, this is very hard for

them to understand sometimes I think. Also, he appears outwardly to be

absolutely fine in most instances while the battle is going on inside him so

they think he is just trying to get out of his work. We have told them that

this is a sign of his OCD taking over and we are glad that he is able to stay

in the classroom at least, but they seem to know " better than us. " I'm

really venting, but I guess I'm nervous because our end of the year CSE

meeting is coming up and they are already pushing Physical Education for next

year. He isn't even able to handle the load of core subjects this year, and

gym has always been a major problem causing him to avoid school altogether.

I'm trying to find out what the requirements for getting a diploma are in

regard to this.

I have also thought about the fact that my son will have to spend more that 4

years in Highschool. We have come to realize over these past years, that we

have to look at life in the long term. We are traveling down a different

road than the " norm " but who knows, we may end up in a better place at the

end.

Noelle in NY

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In a message dated 8/15/00 2:58:46 AM EST, Tricphil@... writes:

<< The boys headteacher,a man,once asked me what do you do all day with all

the

children at school,I supervise the band of fairies who pop in to do some

housework,then retire to my boudoir to eat chocolate and drink gin,only a

well educated man with a responsible job could ask such a silly question. My

brother is deputy head of a school and it is his birthday soon,I have bought

him a T shirt with 3 reasons to be a teacher on they are Easter,Summer, Xmas

Pat

>>

LOL!!!!!!

Judy

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In a message dated 8/15/00 12:58:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

Tricphil@... writes:

<< My

brother is deputy head of a school and it is his birthday soon,I have bought

him a T shirt with 3 reasons to be a teacher on they are Easter,Summer, Xmas

Pat >>

ROFLMBO! This is great! So what do you do when the kids are at

school>>?????????? Just messin with ya!

Jeannie

Mom to Mark and Stephaine!

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,

Jule has addressed the school issues, and really knows that stuff, but I

have a few comments to add!

You write that: >Mike has problems writing, and yes some of it is ocd, but

he also has muscle weaknesses in his hands. <

This alone should qualify him to type his assignments. I have a physical

disability in my right arm - i have been typing my notes since the early

70's - long before it was the excepted practice in schools.

My son is in an altenate public school. this high school is self directed

and he learns one subject at a time. there are primary schools listed under

the alternate program which are not for special needs kids, but kids that

want the option to address different learning styles. Why do you say that he

wont be academically challenged in your alternate program?? If you do decide

to move to a different program and school, ask for references from parents,

speak to the teachers and ask if Mike can visit before you make your choice.

Before you agree to place your son in a group home, I suggest that you try

other options, like the ones Jule mentioned.

I want to address your issues with your husband too. Many of us are in

relationships where there is a power struggle over who knows best. Some are

able to deal with it over time, and some parents have chosen to be with

their child over their spouse. We sometimes need to make a decision based on

our best interest, and the best interest of our future.

Family counselling may help you address the issues that your husband and

you are having over Mike. A good start is to ask the treating physicians to

recommend someone who is experienced in dealing with parents of children

accessing the mental health system.

My husband and son fought for years - verbally and physically. More than

once I gave an ultimatum to each of them! I've mentioned our history here

before (which includes a group home placement). I finally put my foot down

and made them go to counselling together! Things have improved greatly since

Tom has accepted his ocd and meds, and his depression is under control. His

father is now much more understanding as he realizes how his own ocd has

controlled him for so many years.

I make short term goals, and long term ones, depending on the situation.

Perhaps that is where you want to begin? Please feel free to write to me off

list or here. We all understand how tough making decisions can be.

Try and take some time for yourself to think things through....

wendy in canada wb4@...

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,

Jule has addressed the school issues, and really knows that stuff, but I

have a few comments to add!

You write that: >Mike has problems writing, and yes some of it is ocd, but

he also has muscle weaknesses in his hands. <

This alone should qualify him to type his assignments. I have a physical

disability in my right arm - i have been typing my notes since the early

70's - long before it was the excepted practice in schools.

My son is in an altenate public school. this high school is self directed

and he learns one subject at a time. there are primary schools listed under

the alternate program which are not for special needs kids, but kids that

want the option to address different learning styles. Why do you say that he

wont be academically challenged in your alternate program?? If you do decide

to move to a different program and school, ask for references from parents,

speak to the teachers and ask if Mike can visit before you make your choice.

Before you agree to place your son in a group home, I suggest that you try

other options, like the ones Jule mentioned.

I want to address your issues with your husband too. Many of us are in

relationships where there is a power struggle over who knows best. Some are

able to deal with it over time, and some parents have chosen to be with

their child over their spouse. We sometimes need to make a decision based on

our best interest, and the best interest of our future.

Family counselling may help you address the issues that your husband and

you are having over Mike. A good start is to ask the treating physicians to

recommend someone who is experienced in dealing with parents of children

accessing the mental health system.

My husband and son fought for years - verbally and physically. More than

once I gave an ultimatum to each of them! I've mentioned our history here

before (which includes a group home placement). I finally put my foot down

and made them go to counselling together! Things have improved greatly since

Tom has accepted his ocd and meds, and his depression is under control. His

father is now much more understanding as he realizes how his own ocd has

controlled him for so many years.

I make short term goals, and long term ones, depending on the situation.

Perhaps that is where you want to begin? Please feel free to write to me off

list or here. We all understand how tough making decisions can be.

Try and take some time for yourself to think things through....

wendy in canada wb4@...

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:

What meds is Mike on? It sounds like the depression is the primary problem at

the moment. It is impossible for kids to work on CBT when they're depressed.

Kathy can wax eloquent about that. It seems to me that once the depression has

lifted, some of the other symptoms will resolve themselves. (Sounds easy,

doesn't it -- hahahaha.) Personally I would be reluctant to make a move while

Mike is so unstable. I would push instead for accommodations through an IEP

regarding the handwriting. What's wrong with typing or giving responses orally?

If the day is too long, arrange for him to go shortened hours. My 12 yo was on

a shortened school day toward the end of last year because his symptoms were

uncontrolled and the anxiety was too much. He then received tutoring once a

week in the areas that his missed -- at school expense.

FWIW, the school is required by federal law to provide services for your child

in the least restrictive environment (LRE). An alternative setting is not LRE.

You also have to be sure that the alternative setting is truly an appropriate

placement. I was advised at one point to put my child in the day treatment

program where he would receive art and music therapy, as well as group and

individual counseling along with academics. What I discovered was that he would

have been placed in a 1-12 setting where the " hard core " behavior problem kids

were being hauled off to solitary confinement in padded rooms. This is LRE for

a child whose anxiety level was already off the geiger counter?

I find it odd that the therapist and psychiatrist are not in agreement? Do they

ever discuss Mike's case? I would sure request that they do so. I would also

request an IEP team meeting to discuss accommodations for Mike.

Jule

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Hi Shellie, its great to hear from you!

Great to hear how Derrick has settled into his school. I like the 'cool'

part of being in the intermediate grades - they are sooo cute - these little

'wanna be's'!! Middle school is the first time that I saw my kids

demonstrating their independance! Ziv is really getting into the locker

stuff, changing classes and barely misses morning recess!!! She does

complain that she has to travel about 2km to get there - good thing she has

a bike!!

I am very intersted in Ledger House. I spoke at length with Morton

at the Queen andra Centre in , B.C. She presented Tom's case,

but since he's out of province, there was a lot of resistance, mostly due to

the waiting list being long (6 months). She did say she would keep her eyes

open for a position for me though!! We'll move anywhere warmer than here!!

Derricks' worries over loosing his social position are legitimate. It

would help if he could keep in contact with the guys as much as possible,

maybe emailing or phoning to catch up on the news. TOm was out of school for

several months of grade 8 and never was able to regain his 'social status'.

The students that he kept in touch with during that time are still his

friends, but the class as a whole couldnt have cared less if he was there or

not.

Hopefully we'll connect on the chat.....

take care, wendy, in canada wb4@...

===================================================

> I'm so glad to hear school is going so well for all your kids.

>Derrick is also doing awesome. I was worrying like crazy, but he just

>fit right in like he'd always gone to jr high, amazing how the things

>we thing will make them melt down doesn't phase tham at all sometimes.

>He is totally not happy about going to Ledger Housse for his

>treatment, and has argued endlessly that he is fine and doesn't need

>to go. He was all for it until school started and he has turned out

>to be one of the most popular kids at school, where that came from I

>dont know. He has girls calling constantly and kids here continuosly

>wanting him to go hang out. Im glad things are well for him, but am

>scared that it is really going to his head. this is what has made

>him not want to go to Ledger House. Hes afraid of loosing his domain

>while hes gone. oh well just a little update See ya Shellie on

>Vancouver island

>PS for everyone else I have found a institute that deals with kids

>with ocd. once i know more i will let you all know about it.Derrick

>is going there in 2 weeks for a 6 week program, god i hope its what

>he needs

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Shellie~

I just wanted to let you know that your post today made me feel hopeful. I have been so worried lately that my son is going to be the outcast in school and that he won't have many friends because of this ocd/anxiety thing. I see so much at home that is, at times, just plain horrible. That I worry what friends and peers will think of him. And, as I have already posted, I read so much negative about this disorder and relationships that of course I worry.

So again, it was nice to hear something so positive!!!!!

shellie smyrichinsky <seashellie87@...> wrote:

I'm so glad to hear school is going so well for all your kids. Derrick is also doing awesome. I was worrying like crazy, but he just fit right in like he'd always gone to jr high, amazing how the things we thing will make them melt down doesn't phase tham at all sometimes.He is totally not happy about going to Ledger Housse for his treatment, and has argued endlessly that he is fine and doesn't need to go. He was all for it until school started and he has turned out to be one of the most popular kids at school, where that came from I dont know. He has girls calling constantly and kids here continuosly wanting him to go hang out. Im glad things are well for him, but am scared that it is really going to his head. this is what has made him not want to go to Ledger House. Hes afraid of loosing his domain while hes gone. oh well just a little update See ya Shellie on Vancouver islandPS for everyone else I have found a institute that deals with kids with ocd. once i know more i will let you all know about it.Derrick is going there in 2 weeks for a 6 week program, god i hope its what he needsYou may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... . In the body of your message write: subscribe OCD-L your name. You may subscribe to the Parents of Adults with OCD List at parentsofadultswithOCD . You may access the files, links, and archives for our list at . Our list advisors are Tamar Chansky, Ph.D., and Aureen Pinto Wagner, Ph.D. Our list moderators are Birkhan, Kathy Hammes, Jule Monnens, Gail Pesses, Roman, and Jackie Stout. Subscription issues, problems, or suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at harkins@... .

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---

I was just wondering if you have ever gone to school, and watched.

Last winter when Derrick was in his worse state, we went to the

school to decorate for the Xmas concert. I was worried about how he

acts at school and around his friends, hoping he wasnt a loner. Well

it was incredible, I would have never guessed he even had OCD, while

at home we would battle it for hours. He told me he could control it

when he had to so his friends would not know, and he did. I kept

watching him, thinking this is the Derrick I want at home, the

Derrick that is afraid of nothing, germs, saying certain things. I wa

in shock that he still existed. From that day forward i knew he was

safe, and he had control when he really needed to. THough home time

was a night mare. AS soon as he would get home, he washed for hours,

and everything was contaminated. He explained to me he could keep a

lid on it at school, but as soon as he got home he felt like he was

going to explode...from pushing it aside all day. So if you find

things hard at home, I would guess he may have control when hes with

his peers. Hope this makes sense......Shellie

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In a message dated 9/20/2000 3:53:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

gboughton@... writes:

<< After reading:

*Theraputic hold given for 5 minutes when Ted refused to go to

classroom to pick up chair and books he threw to floor. Ted sat down and

took off glasses and shoes. Hold was administered after behavior.

This just makes me crazy!

Gail

>>

What's the purpose of holding him after he's all done? Doesn't he respond

well to being ignored while sitting on a chair at a table by himself pouting?

always does what you want her to do after that. LOL

BTW, they held him cause he took off his shoes and glasses? UGH!!

Joy

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In a message dated 9/20/00 7:42:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

JTesmer799@... writes:

<< After reading:

*Theraputic hold given for 5 minutes when Ted refused to go to

classroom to pick up chair and books he threw to floor. Ted sat down and

took off glasses and shoes. Hold was administered after behavior. >>

This just makes me crazy also. I know this was on the list before but is this

therapeutic hold very restrictive. It seems he was sitting already. I hate

even the sound of a " hold " unless my child was throwing things or something.

Pam

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I agree--seems to me that he needed motivation to fix the mess, not

restraint when the fact that he wasn't doing what he was supposed to was the

problem in the first place. This doesn't sound like positive behavior

support--sounds stupid to me.

Judi

Re: School

In a message dated 9/20/2000 3:53:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

gboughton@... writes:

<< After reading:

*Theraputic hold given for 5 minutes when Ted refused to go to

classroom to pick up chair and books he threw to floor. Ted sat down and

took off glasses and shoes. Hold was administered after behavior.

This just makes me crazy!

Gail

>>

What's the purpose of holding him after he's all done? Doesn't he respond

well to being ignored while sitting on a chair at a table by himself

pouting?

always does what you want her to do after that. LOL

BTW, they held him cause he took off his shoes and glasses? UGH!!

Joy

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Gail, Did you misspell therapeutic or did the school?? <g> Sorry but the

teacher in me who has graded 50 procedure manuals sometimes gets the better

of me:)) Can't you put in writing that you do NOT want them to use a hold

on your son? This sounds really punitive and obviously it doesn't work.

Five minutes sounds like a long time as well. Are you planning to file due

process? Why doesn't your attorney get on the stick and make these folks

behave? It seems to me that he could do something about this.

Elaine

School

>

> After reading:

> *Theraputic hold given for 5 minutes when Ted refused to go to

> classroom to pick up chair and books he threw to floor. Ted sat down and

> took off glasses and shoes. Hold was administered after behavior.

>

> This just makes me crazy!

>

> Gail

>

>

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In a message dated 09/21/2000 5:33:18 AM US Mountain Standard Time,

dhron@... writes:

<< fter reading:

> *Theraputic hold given for 5 minutes when Ted refused to go to

> classroom to pick up chair and books he threw to floor. Ted sat down and

> took off glasses and shoes. Hold was administered after behavior.

>>

It was after an aide got physical with Mav that we had written into his IEP

that all staff will be trained in positive behavior management. At our

monthly inclusion meetings we work hard at looking why a behavior is

happening and what can be changed to stop it. I would (and did) get very

angry and insist on some changes if the " theraputic hold " was being used on

Mav...or any of my children.

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Gail,

I'm just sick reading about the trouble the school is giving you and

especially Ted. Why can't they just try to work with Ted, instead of

trying to do to Ted?

I'm worried too, about the fact that Karrie's school could inflict

physical discipline on her without my knowledge.

BTW, Kate was hurt by her biological donor when she was 4. I had the

doctor at the hospital document it. At the court hearing, the hospital

record had disappeared and the " doctor " couldn't remember a thing about

it. I know he did remember, because she had also been raped and he was

the one who called all the authorities. So don't trust just the

hospital. Keep your own documentation, too.

Good luck and I'm sending a big <<<hug>>> to both of you.

Sue mom to Kate 10 and Karrie 4 w/ds

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In a message dated 9/21/2000 7:29:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

cabevizzo@... writes:

<< What exactly is a " theraputic hold " ? T >>

I think it's where the sit behind them while holding their arms crossed

across their chests?

So is it something like this?

Joy

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What exactly is a " theraputic hold " ? This would make me nervous too, especially

after seeing a show about this kind of stuff where they were wrestling kids down

to the floor and putting them in a restraining hold on their stomachs with their

hands behind their backs like criminals. What they were doing was very forceful,

looked cruel, and was a punishment that didn't fit the " crime " . Were there any

other witnesses? I would think that this incident was probably not a big thing

like that, though, because they felt comfortable enough writing it down and

telling you about it. I mean, it was nothing that they are trying to hide. Five

minutes is a long time. I would have to say something to nip it in the bud and

not allow stuff like that at all. I think that when they're allowed to do stuff

like this, it makes it easier to push the envelope (on purpose or accidentally)

and go a little further with physical punishment.

There must have been a better way to handle the situation and teach instead of

punish. What does he really get out of this? Did they warn him before they did

it? Did they talk to him (teach) him afterward?

Please let us know what they say about it. I'd be very interested to know what

this is and am concerned that it might be widespread and used in our area.

Thanks,

> After reading:

> *Theraputic hold given for 5 minutes when Ted refused to go to

> classroom to pick up chair and books he threw to floor. Ted sat down and

> took off glasses and shoes. Hold was administered after behavior.

(wife of Rob and mom of 9 month old twins (DS/cleft lip & palate) and

)

http://sites.netscape.net/cabevizzo/homepage

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans.

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What exactly is a " theraputic hold " ? This would make me nervous too, especially

after seeing a show about this kind of stuff where they were wrestling kids down

to the floor and putting them in a restraining hold on their stomachs with their

hands behind their backs like criminals. What they were doing was very forceful,

looked cruel, and was a punishment that didn't fit the " crime " . Were there any

other witnesses? I would think that this incident was probably not a big thing

like that, though, because they felt comfortable enough writing it down and

telling you about it. I mean, it was nothing that they are trying to hide. Five

minutes is a long time. I would have to say something to nip it in the bud and

not allow stuff like that at all. I think that when they're allowed to do stuff

like this, it makes it easier to push the envelope (on purpose or accidentally)

and go a little further with physical punishment.

There must have been a better way to handle the situation and teach instead of

punish. What does he really get out of this? Did they warn him before they did

it? Did they talk to him (teach) him afterward?

I mean, yes, if he was being violent or absolutely out of control and every

other type of approach was exhausted, then a hold might be appropriate. It

really doesn't sound like he did anything at all to warrant this at all. Scares

me very much.

Please let us know what they say about it. I'd be very interested to know what

this is and am concerned that it might be widespread and used in our area.

Thanks,

> After reading:

> *Theraputic hold given for 5 minutes when Ted refused to go to

> classroom to pick up chair and books he threw to floor. Ted sat down and

> took off glasses and shoes. Hold was administered after behavior.

(wife of Rob and mom of 9 month old twins (DS/cleft lip & palate) and

)

http://sites.netscape.net/cabevizzo/homepage

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans.

______________________________________________

FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com

Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

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In a message dated 9/21/00 1:21:58 PM Central Daylight Time,

JTesmer799@... writes:

<<

<< What exactly is a " theraputic hold " ? T >>

I think it's where the sit behind them while holding their arms crossed

across their chests?

So is it something like this?

Joy

>>

this is a good thing to bring up and make sure is specifically explained in

the IEP or behavior plan for your child. A " therapeutic hold " can mean just

about anything. I've seen it used to describe laying a child on the ground

with various techniques for holding the arms (some safer for the child than

others), or sitting behind and holding the child's arms crossed, or holding

them in a chair.

Anyway, there is no one agreed upon " therapeutic hold " so be sure that the

specific hold that will be used is explained in the document. Also make sure

that only staff trained in how to do that hold is actually doing it.

Karyn

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> After reading:

> *Theraputic hold given for 5 minutes when Ted refused to go to

> classroom to pick up chair and books he threw to floor. Ted sat down and

> took off glasses and shoes. Hold was administered after behavior.

This would make me crazy too. I know would never respond to this, he

would just dig his heels in deeper, making the person trying to cajole him

even more frustrated. Not a good situation. Gail, is this something they

have to get your permission to be able to do at school? It would make me

nervous having something applying a " physical " punishment on my child.

R.

Mom to (6, ds) and Grace (3)

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<<This just makes me crazy also. I know this was on the list before but

is this

therapeutic hold very restrictive. It seems he was sitting already. I

hate

even the sound of a " hold " unless my child was throwing things or

something.

Pam

>>

Hi Pam,

There was a form designed last year that was supposed to be used

if they ever had to use this as a crisis plan. First of all it wasn't

necessary,

this woman that did it is only in the bldg. twice a week (she is

supposedly

a behavioralist from the jr high school) is some sort of control freak.

Secondly, they didn't tell me what they did prior to physically

restraining

him for refusing to comply with their demand that he pick up books and

a chair. Or for taking off his shoes and glasses and throwing them.

So this form is supposed to tell me who did it, and what stage it was

there are 3stages on this form. I've just really had it with this SD.

Ted

is not going to school to learn how to become a compliant student. He

has needs that they just are not addressing. I'm just so sick about it

all.

Thanks for listening

Gail

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In a message dated 9/21/2000 3:30:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

KVanRyzin@... writes:

<< Anyway, there is no one agreed upon " therapeutic hold " so be sure that the

specific hold that will be used is explained in the document. Also make sure

that only staff trained in how to do that hold is actually doing it.

Karyn

>>

thankfully our school doesn't use them. :-)

Joy

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<<Gail, Did you misspell therapeutic or did the school?? <g> Sorry but

the

teacher in me who has graded 50 procedure manuals sometimes gets the

better

of me:)) Can't you put in writing that you do NOT want them to use a

hold

on your son? This sounds really punitive and obviously it doesn't work.

Five minutes sounds like a long time as well. Are you planning to file

due

process? Why doesn't your attorney get on the stick and make these folks

behave? It seems to me that he could do something about this.

Elaine>>

Hi Elaine,

Thanks for the wrightslaw site. I mentioned it to her (my attorney)

and she knew about it but thanks. I copies the note right off the paper!

We have a big meeting on Friday. Anyone with words of wisdom that

I could impart to them so they start to get it? Judi?

<<No matter how much or how little parents ask for their children with

disabiities, there will be some backlash. Human nature being what it is,

no

amount of what might be percieved (incorrectly) as " perks " is too little

for

a devalued minority group especially one that has routinely been

considered

to deserve very little. Why not ask for what is appropriate in the first

place? Better backlash with appropriate services and education than

backlash with less than appropriate ones. Look at the backlash women

(african americans, etc. etc) have faced--should they have not demanded

their fair share because of fear that the majority wouldn't like it? I

have

a sociology book about this very phenomena--ain't nothing special to

sped.

Judi>>

I can hardly even explain the back lash that I feel because I question

what Ted's school is doing. I am not liked. I can hear it in the tone

of voice when I call the principal. Now the teacher is just making it

up as she goes. No one is following his previous behavior plan or IEP

I get a note home on Friday that Ted was put in timeout several times.

I don't see time out any where in his plan!

Gail

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<<. I would have to say something to nip it in the bud and not allow

stuff like that at all. I think that when they're allowed to do stuff

like this, it makes it easier to push the envelope (on purpose or

accidentally) and go a little further with physical punishment.

There must have been a better way to handle the situation and teach

instead of punish. What does he really get out of this? Did they warn him

before they did it? Did they talk to him (teach) him afterward? >>

You are absolutely correct ! These people are nuts!

To put a hold on Ted because he threw his shoe at the principal

because he wouldn't clean up a chair and books he threw is

senseless. I have a meeting and in addition to several phone calls

and a letter from my attorney I certainly hope to get them the

help they need. The school resorts to bad behavior when they don't

know what to do!

Gail

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