school

[Guest guest]

Dear Serena: I went through alot of problems with school with my daughter.

Do you know about 504 plans? I will give you a site that is great for a hand

out for teachers.

<A HREF= " http://www.fairlite.com/ocd/articles/school.shtml " >School Personnel:

A Critical Link</A> Good luck and write to me anytime if you want any info.

Sheree

[Guest guest]

Thanks Sherree for the link that you sent. I just read it and I am going to

print it out and bring it right up to the school. I think the schools are

clueless when it comes to this disorder.

I am so happy I have found . I am learning a lot.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheree,

Thanks for the link I printed it up it was really useful.

Spencer

has a 504 plan that was collecting dust in the schools file so I stapled a

copy

to the front of his communication book. It will be pretty hard to ignore now

:+)

Serena

[Guest guest]

Dear Serena: Be strong with this - insist on your son's rights. I'm

fortunate because the head of special ed for the high schools was and is my

daughter's advocate so it is her job to make sure all of the teachers comply

with accomodations that will help my daughter to succeed. At first, they

seemed resistant because they felt she had a bad attitude and as proof called

attention to all her " missing " work. Well, as we all know ocd can rob one of

his/her self esteem and cause them to feel like a failure. If there are

things that will help your son ask for them to be instituted. For example I

asked under the 504 that my daughter be give a " BUDDY'S " NOTES. She has

problems with note taking. Also I asked that some tests be give orally. Both

have helped her. Also we schedule follow up meetings so that my daughter

can't slack and use her ocd to manipulate things. Good luck. I hope this is

helpful. I waited a few years too long to institute this. I wish I had done

it 4 years ago. Sheree

[Guest guest]

Dear Kathy: I hope you read my letter that I sent tonight regarding 504 plan.

If not, let me know. Sheree

[Guest guest]

HI Everyone:

My son has a 504 modification plan but there is little of consequence in

it. Just that teachers know he has OCD and that he should not be punished

for his rituals. Does anyone have suggestions to share of what would be

good?

I listened to an advocacy tape and it was suggested to ask for a teacher

in-service but at the last meeting his care coordinator told me she

considered it was not necessary. I also lent the school the OCF videos and

information packet about OCD and children and adolescents but they said it

was way over their heads. Mostly we just say he needs mental health

services to keep him in school and that is the main part of his plan. We

do set goals, e.g. socialization, but the teachers make him stay in at

recess to catch up when he slows down on his work so he will get this

consequence. They were very surprised when we explained to him they need

to send undone work home. Somehow then there was no undone work!

Any suggestions? Aloha, Kathy

kathyh@...

At 10:12 PM 3/5/99 EST, Serena wrote:

>From: SClem53971@...

>

>Hi Sheree,

> Thanks for the link I printed it up it was really useful.

>Spencer

>has a 504 plan that was collecting dust in the schools file so I stapled a

>copy

>to the front of his communication book. It will be pretty hard to ignore now

>:+)

>

>Serena

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Have you visited our new web site?

>

>Onelist: Helping to create Internet communities

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their web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom

support at http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

>

>

[Guest guest]

Some other good sites for info about IEPs and 504s are:

> http://www.wrightslaw.com/

> http://add.miningco.com/msubadvo.htm

> http://www2.crosswinds.net/washington-dc/~advocate/

Fran

SSacks9021@... wrote:

>

> From: SSacks9021@...

>

> Dear Serena: I went through alot of problems with school with my daughter.

> Do you know about 504 plans? I will give you a site that is great for a hand

> out for teachers.

> <A HREF= " http://www.fairlite.com/ocd/articles/school.shtml " >School Personnel:

> A Critical Link</A> Good luck and write to me anytime if you want any info.

> Sheree

[Guest guest]

HI Fran:

Thanks for these sites. My son's case manager told me that our state is

now looking into whether 504 kids qualify for the services they have been

providing under the Felix consent decree. It seems they wonder if the 504

legislation is flexible enough that they can avoid providing mental health

services to kids like my son. It is very timely for me to get up to speed

on 504 in case we have to join another class action lawsuit. Aloha, Kathy

At 03:19 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:

>From: Fran Mennick <famennick@...>

>

>Some other good sites for info about IEPs and 504s are:

>

>> http://www.wrightslaw.com/

>

>> http://add.miningco.com/msubadvo.htm

>

>> http://www2.crosswinds.net/washington-dc/~advocate/

>

>Fran

>

>SSacks9021@... wrote:

>>

>> From: SSacks9021@...

>>

>> Dear Serena: I went through alot of problems with school with my daughter.

>> Do you know about 504 plans? I will give you a site that is great for a

hand

>> out for teachers.

>> <A HREF= " http://www.fairlite.com/ocd/articles/school.shtml " >School

Personnel:

>> A Critical Link</A> Good luck and write to me anytime if you want any

info.

>> Sheree

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Ta Da! Come see our new web site!

>

>Onelist: A free email community service

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>The is sponsored by the OCSDA. You may visit

their web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom

support at http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy!

Is the Felix consent decree a local/state agreement or a Federal one?

Thanks Jim

From: Kathy Hammes <kathyh@...>

>

>HI Fran:

>

>Thanks for these sites. My son's case manager told me that our state is

>now looking into whether 504 kids qualify for the services they have been

>providing under the Felix consent decree. It seems they wonder if the 504

>legislation is flexible enough that they can avoid providing mental health

>services to kids like my son. It is very timely for me to get up to speed

>on 504 in case we have to join another class action lawsuit. Aloha, Kathy

>

>At 03:19 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:

>>From: Fran Mennick <famennick@...>

>>

>>Some other good sites for info about IEPs and 504s are:

>>

>>> http://www.wrightslaw.com/

>>

>>> http://add.miningco.com/msubadvo.htm

>>

>>> http://www2.crosswinds.net/washington-dc/~advocate/

>>

>>Fran

>>

>>SSacks9021@... wrote:

>>>

>>> From: SSacks9021@...

>>>

>>> Dear Serena: I went through alot of problems with school with my

daughter.

>>> Do you know about 504 plans? I will give you a site that is great for a

>hand

>>> out for teachers.

>>> <A HREF= " http://www.fairlite.com/ocd/articles/school.shtml " >School

>Personnel:

>>> A Critical Link</A> Good luck and write to me anytime if you want any

>info.

>>> Sheree

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>Ta Da! Come see our new web site!

>>

>>Onelist: A free email community service

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>The is sponsored by the OCSDA. You may visit

>their web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom

>support at http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

>>

>>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Did you know that we have over 85,000 e-mail communities at Onelist?

>

>Come visit our new web site and explore a new interest

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>The is sponsored by the OCSDA. You may visit their

web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom support

at http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

>

[Guest guest]

Fran: Thank you for the additional websites.

Kathy: keep us up to date on this. We will all want in on the class action.

:-) hope it does not come to that.

JillOCSDA@...

In a message dated 3/10/99 12:53:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,

kathyh@... writes:

<< From: Kathy Hammes <kathyh@...>

HI Fran:

Thanks for these sites. My son's case manager told me that our state is

now looking into whether 504 kids qualify for the services they have been

providing under the Felix consent decree. It seems they wonder if the 504

legislation is flexible enough that they can avoid providing mental health

services to kids like my son. It is very timely for me to get up to speed

on 504 in case we have to join another class action lawsuit. Aloha, Kathy

At 03:19 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:

>From: Fran Mennick <famennick@...>

>

>Some other good sites for info about IEPs and 504s are:

>

>> http://www.wrightslaw.com/

>

>> http://add.miningco.com/msubadvo.htm

>

>> http://www2.crosswinds.net/washington-dc/~advocate/

> >>

[Guest guest]

HI Jim:

The Felix consent decree is only in effect in the State of Hawai`i. I have

seen some reference to similar class action suits, possibly in Wisconsin

and Massachusetts. I don't want to start a rumor as I have not ever tried

to confirm this. Also I heard that something similar might be tried in

California. A savvy state government would take action before it gets to

this stage so it is probably only " third world " states like HI that have

this problem?

There is a second class action suit in the works here for kids who have to

be shipped to Texas for in patient treatment because the state children's

mental hospital (the only one there is) is considered far, far below par.

I was advised twice to institutionalize my son there and we didn't do it,

partly because of the bad rep. Now he is doing so much better, I am happy

we never tried it. Aloha, Kathy

At 03:06 PM 3/10/99 -0800, Jim wrote:

>From: " Jim " <jjmcf@...>

>

>

>Hi Kathy!

>

>Is the Felix consent decree a local/state agreement or a Federal one?

>

>Thanks Jim

>

>From: Kathy Hammes <kathyh@...>

>>

>>HI Fran:

>>

>>Thanks for these sites. My son's case manager told me that our state is

>>now looking into whether 504 kids qualify for the services they have been

>>providing under the Felix consent decree. It seems they wonder if the 504

>>legislation is flexible enough that they can avoid providing mental health

>>services to kids like my son. It is very timely for me to get up to speed

>>on 504 in case we have to join another class action lawsuit. Aloha, Kathy

>>

>>At 03:19 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:

>>>From: Fran Mennick <famennick@...>

>>>

>>>Some other good sites for info about IEPs and 504s are:

>>>

>>>> http://www.wrightslaw.com/

>>>

>>>> http://add.miningco.com/msubadvo.htm

>>>

>>>> http://www2.crosswinds.net/washington-dc/~advocate/

>>>

>>>Fran

>>>

>>>SSacks9021@... wrote:

>>>>

>>>> From: SSacks9021@...

>>>>

>>>> Dear Serena: I went through alot of problems with school with my

>daughter.

>>>> Do you know about 504 plans? I will give you a site that is great for a

>>hand

>>>> out for teachers.

>>>> <A HREF= " http://www.fairlite.com/ocd/articles/school.shtml " >School

>>Personnel:

>>>> A Critical Link</A> Good luck and write to me anytime if you want any

>>info.

>>>> Sheree

>>>

>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>Ta Da! Come see our new web site!

>>>

>>>Onelist: A free email community service

>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>The is sponsored by the OCSDA. You may visit

>>their web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom

>>support at http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

>>>

>>>

>>

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>Did you know that we have over 85,000 e-mail communities at Onelist?

>>

>>Come visit our new web site and explore a new interest

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>The is sponsored by the OCSDA. You may visit their

>web site at http://www.ocdhelp.org/ and view schedules for chatroom support

>at http://www.ocdhelp.org/chat.html

>>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Theresa,

Home schooling is not a choice for us. Partly because it's not easy to find

tutors to instruct both the AP Physics and AP Calculus at home. I thought about

changing the English teacher in January. But, I learned that it may not get

approval easily. If I started the process and did not go through, then it's

going to be worse for (the teacher would learn our intention). Back then,

I didn't know our rights. I wish I joined this list earlier to learn all the

alternatives and our legal rights. If I knew, I would have insisted on changing

the teacher.

It's amazing, might be failing english which has been one of his

strengths and interests. If it does not involve school, his reading is much

better. He has very wide interests and reads a lot of magazines, Economics,

Wall Street Journal, PC Magazine and other professional magazines. He attended

the Advanced Creative Writing course at the Columbia University last summer and

got good report. But, his school reading is horrible. He could stare at the

same page for hours or days! Since he got pretty good score on SAT verbal (he

got 740), the teacher does not quite believe he has problem. She even made the

comment: If can perform well on SAT, why can't he perform the same way at

school? If we can answer this question, we would not be here to struggle. Who

would want to have this trouble, if one had choice?

Yes, I have appointment with the 504 director in the superintendent's office

next week. I want to understand our rights and alternatives. It's a good idea

to document our request whcih would help me to organize my own thoughts. Thanks

for the suggestions.

Yes, only 27 more days left for this school year. SUmmer did not make too much

difference to me before, because I work full time. But, now, it's a big relief

for me to take a break.

Sounds like Ellen is making a good progress now. Very good. I'm glad for you.

Take care.

TC

[Guest guest]

Luane Ty's mom,

I am glad you found out about that govt. program. I teach in California and

I know that hear we HAVE to make accommodations for students. Why a teacher

wouldn't want to is beyond me. Our goal is supposed to be to see every child

succeed. Keep pushing for him. I think next year will definitely be an

improvement.

Tami

[Guest guest]

Hi Jane,

I just think I am getting wore out and those middle school kids wear me down

even further. I am the insurance earner and have't a choice. But my staff

is very kind when I don't feel good.

thanks,

Connie, MI

[Guest guest]

Hi Margaret-

On my part, Rudy was pretty much in self-contained thru the ECI years until

about 5 then he started going half days with the regular classes. This

worked fine until about the time he was in 3rd grade then I pulled him from

regular classes & put him back in self-contained except for art & p.e.. The

reason for this is that at that age, Rudy still could not speak, read, or

write and was becoming very frustrated and aggressive because of it. He has

been much happier and learned alot since doing this. He still cant read or

write but he can recognize some words and his speech is alot better and has

learned alot more sign language, especially since he started his new school

this year. Being comfortable with the teachers does play a large part in

your confidence level. I've been very fortunate that Rudy has only had maybe

two teachers that I really clashed with. You just have to hang in there and

actually read your rights manual. It is a wealth of information, even as

boring as it is. Good luck & Happy Holidays.

mom to Rudy (ds) & 12, TJ 16

[Guest guest]

Hi Margaret,

I haven't been able to keep up with all the mail, so I dropped out for a

while.

Helen has always been in the same class as her two sisters, but they go to a

very small school (only 52 kids). I recently had a battle with the Head

Teacher who wanted Helen put with a younger class for numeracy and literacy.

I was against this, but let them try it. A week and a half later, the Head

came to me and said that it was not working, and that Helen belonged with the

rest of the class in her own age group. I have accepted that Helen will

never catch up with the rest, but trying to fit her into special classes or

with younger children is not the answer (I think) and a good teacher will

differentiate classwork to include ALL children.

Eileen (mum to triplets Emma, Helen (DS) and Kate aged 7

[Guest guest]

Re: school

I wanted to add that while we usually consider public/homeschooling, it is

worth looking for an alternative program for our kids.

Tom only attended school from March to June for Grade 8. He had been at

home and was too ill to attend to academics, and then was in the hospital

for 6 weeks with some informal schooling. He tried grade 9 in a standard, 8

period a day public school. It was not the best, but with one resource class

he made it through the year.

Grade 10 he lasted one week - and was asked to consider home schooling!

The school had switched to a semestered system which was impossible for him.

Sitting and paying attention for 100+ minutes at a time is not in his

abilities. He was disruptive, was seeking reassurance all the time, and

aggressive when challenged by anyone. The VP wanted tom to have a school

tutor, but the school refused to supply one - and suggested that he come

each morning and collect work from the resource teacher to do at home. Tom

refused to comply - even when given the option to sit in the resource all

day and do his work -he replied: " its your job to educate me - so find a

way " . During this time I was 90% occupied with my mother who was dying, so

tom stayed home and slept most of the day and night - but continued to be

aggressive when challenged.

In February, he was accepted into a public alternate program after being

on the waiting list since september. He goes to school only mornings,

independently studies one subject at a time, and has a classroom teacher who

assists as necessary. He prepares assignments, projects, takes exams, etc.

like the regular system, but only has one subject to remember. His marks are

all in the A range, btw!! He can complete the same amount of credits in one

year there as one year in the standard system.

He also goes to night school one night a week (smaller classes) and has

earned 1-2 credits per year. Some of our kids are more alert at night, so

this is worth considering. Tom is now happily completing grade 10 courses

and beginning grade 11 subjects.

Tom can be shy - even though he dresses in an attention grabbing manner -

such as the orange coveralls and blue hair he is sporting this week! His

school, called an alternate program, is full of kids like him with

backgrounds in mental health, addictions, family difficulties, etc. They are

all individuals. The class groups are generally small, less than 20. Life

Skills is a required course.

The point of this post is to help people consider looking for more

alternatives within the school system. Private schools are also

alternatives, but $$ pays a big role when we are paying so much for docs and

meds as it is! I wish that alternate programs were available for younger

grades.

take care all - wendy in canada

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

<< The point of this post is to help people consider looking for more

alternatives within the school system. >>

This month my son Mat began a public school program for Emotionally Disturbed

kids. He is in 6th grade and is doing very well in the new class. I am very

impressed with the program.

Patti

[Guest guest]

Okay, here's a funny one...

I'm entering my dd in kindergarten. Not because I want her there (I

homeschool, and they won't teach her anything - she's reading on a 3rd gr

level), but I can't afford daycare and my son needs therapy every day.

Anyway, I went over to pick up her enrollment packet. the lady mentioned

something about health form. I said " well, at the school I used to run, we

had a state immunization form, isn't that what you use? " . She said " you can

just write her vaccine dates down, and have the doctor sign it if you want " .

I said " we don't vaccinate, so I need the form. Or if you wish, I can have a

statement notarized " . She flipped. I said, very LOUDLY " DO YOU HAVE A

PERSONAL PROBLEM WITH MY DAUGHTER'S HEALTH STATUS?????? " She said " No, but

it makes it a hassle. You can conscientiously object if you want " . Here's

the big hassle: She had to bend over, open a cabinet and take the form out

for me. What a [tw]itch. And YES, I will be reporting her to the district.

[Guest guest]

Unbelieveable! It's actually easier when you object. You just check the

box here and they never have to check up on you again. No reminder letters

to be in compliance or else... Three kids were pulled out of my class

yesterday for not having their records up to date. It took a day of phone

calls to locate tjheir parents and send out more notices!

jennifer

-----

She flipped. I said, very LOUDLY " DO YOU HAVE A

> PERSONAL PROBLEM WITH MY DAUGHTER'S HEALTH STATUS?????? " She said " No,

but

> it makes it a hassle. You can conscientiously object if you want " .

Here's

> the big hassle: She had to bend over, open a cabinet and take the form

out

> for me. What a [tw]itch. And YES, I will be reporting her to the

district.

>

> ---------------------------

[Guest guest]

Leah,

It can be so hard sometimes to fight against the system but you know what

will be best for your child so don't give up. Let them know you are a

fighter and you mean business. Talk to a lot of different people in the area

if you can. I feel for you since I think I will be doing the same thing

shortly. We are moving next month and the new school system threatens to be

a major problem for us. Currently they don't want to give us too much info

since we haven't moved yet, but what I hear is not too encouraging. Let us

know what is going on so we can support you.

Marisa

[Guest guest]

Hi Vicki,

I am a special ed parapro, sort of a teacher aid. I am in charge of one

student. He is Autistic/Asperbergers Symdrome and tourrettes. He also has a

lot of depression and psychotic things. I have been with him since 5th

grade. We are now in 8th grade. He is extremely bright so he goes to

regular school with my help. I just work all over the school so the kids

don't know i am there for him. But he told them this year.

He wears me out sometimes. His moods and such are straight up and down.

No Inbetweens.

I have to work, I am the insurance earner. It has been 6 1/2 years since

I got bit. But I have had arthritis/sinus, ect for 25 years. So not well a

lot. But I don't have a choice. There were days I felt like just driving

off the road, the pain would be so bad. I guess my brain was so mixed up I

couldn't believe I was that sick.

When I got bit, I owned a gift shop, worked full time, was the program

coordinator for the mall, I mean I was busy, and then WOW LYME,,,,,,,,your

whole life changes.

Then somehow I became secretary to the MI LDA and when I lecture I tell

them

Lyme is a lifestyle change, it does not adapt to you, you need to adapt

to it. Take your meds, rest when you can and do your own research.

Geez didn't mean to be so windy. Anyway that is why I work, doc says I

should have quit years ago, but I just couldn't, and now with my husband ill

again, I think I will work until they carry me out in a pine box!!

LOL, ya gotta have lyme humor.

Hugs to you, can't wait to meet you.

Connie, MI

[Guest guest]

Hi Vicki,

I am a special ed parapro, sort of a teacher aid. I am in charge of one

student. He is Autistic/Asperbergers Symdrome and tourrettes. He also has a

lot of depression and psychotic things. I have been with him since 5th

grade. We are now in 8th grade. He is extremely bright so he goes to

regular school with my help. I just work all over the school so the kids

don't know i am there for him. But he told them this year.

He wears me out sometimes. His moods and such are straight up and down.

No Inbetweens.

I have to work, I am the insurance earner. It has been 6 1/2 years since

I got bit. But I have had arthritis/sinus, ect for 25 years. So not well a

lot. But I don't have a choice. There were days I felt like just driving

off the road, the pain would be so bad. I guess my brain was so mixed up I

couldn't believe I was that sick.

When I got bit, I owned a gift shop, worked full time, was the program

coordinator for the mall, I mean I was busy, and then WOW LYME,,,,,,,,your

whole life changes.

Then somehow I became secretary to the MI LDA and when I lecture I tell

them

Lyme is a lifestyle change, it does not adapt to you, you need to adapt

to it. Take your meds, rest when you can and do your own research.

Geez didn't mean to be so windy. Anyway that is why I work, doc says I

should have quit years ago, but I just couldn't, and now with my husband ill

again, I think I will work until they carry me out in a pine box!!

LOL, ya gotta have lyme humor.

Hugs to you, can't wait to meet you.

Connie, MI

[Guest guest]

Hi Connie,

I can't imagine doing all that. Just working a regular job wore me out, but

what you deal with has to be stressful. I understand why you have to work

though you worry about you working so hard. I hope you at least get some

satisfaction from it.

I know what you mean about driving off the road. When I was working, I used

to cry all the way there wondering what was wrong with me, and trying so

hard to just tell myself it was nothing, its all in my head, I think the

doctor's pounded that in well, until I accidentally found this wonderful

LLMD I'm seeing now. He's wonderful because he dx'd my Lyme, but now I

thinking he is too conservative. But he will always be my hero for not

blowing me off and telling me its all in my head. Hang in there,Can't wait

to see you in Gettysburg. Its going to be so great!

Vicki, Md

>From: Cslyme@...

>

>Hi Vicki,

> I am a special ed parapro, sort of a teacher aid. I am in charge of

one

>student. He is Autistic/Asperbergers Symdrome and tourrettes. He also has

a

>lot of depression and psychotic things.

> He wears me out sometimes. His moods and such are straight up and down.

>No Inbetweens.

> I have to work, I am the insurance earner. It has been 6 1/2 years

since

>I got bit. But I have had arthritis/sinus, ect for 25 years. So not well

a

>lot. But I don't have a choice. There were days I felt like just driving

>off the road, the pain would be so bad. I guess my brain was so mixed up I

[Guest guest]

Hi Connie,

I can't imagine doing all that. Just working a regular job wore me out, but

what you deal with has to be stressful. I understand why you have to work

though you worry about you working so hard. I hope you at least get some

satisfaction from it.

I know what you mean about driving off the road. When I was working, I used

to cry all the way there wondering what was wrong with me, and trying so

hard to just tell myself it was nothing, its all in my head, I think the

doctor's pounded that in well, until I accidentally found this wonderful

LLMD I'm seeing now. He's wonderful because he dx'd my Lyme, but now I

thinking he is too conservative. But he will always be my hero for not

blowing me off and telling me its all in my head. Hang in there,Can't wait

to see you in Gettysburg. Its going to be so great!

Vicki, Md

>From: Cslyme@...

>

>Hi Vicki,

> I am a special ed parapro, sort of a teacher aid. I am in charge of

one

>student. He is Autistic/Asperbergers Symdrome and tourrettes. He also has

a

>lot of depression and psychotic things.

> He wears me out sometimes. His moods and such are straight up and down.

>No Inbetweens.

> I have to work, I am the insurance earner. It has been 6 1/2 years

since

>I got bit. But I have had arthritis/sinus, ect for 25 years. So not well

a

>lot. But I don't have a choice. There were days I felt like just driving

>off the road, the pain would be so bad. I guess my brain was so mixed up I