RE: Another Interesting Bill

[Guest guest]

I don't believe that Medical Directors care what type of test a paramedic takes

to become certified. They are more concerned with the Paramedic being competent

and able to understand and follow their protocols and provide quality patient

care. I believe that the educational program makes good Paramedics not the

test. To this day we have excellent Paramedics who completed an educational

program way back when, passed a STATE TEST, and provide outstanding patient

care. As far as being in the medical community you are correct but most nurses

are jealous of Paramedics because they are allowed to administer care that

nurses can't (an ER Physician allowed me to intubate a patient in the ER one

time and if looks could kill, the one I got from the Nurse would have killed me)

and all Physicians care about is compliance with their protocols. I don't think

that there are any Medical Directors who will not let a Paramedic practice under

their license unless they have a National Registry card.

To: texasems-l

From: toni_crippen@...

Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:04:53 -0600

Subject: RE: Another Interesting Bill

Hmm. Guess I phrased that last question incorrectly. You are right, it's

not about respect.

So, I retract and resubmit.

Shouldn't our testing be more in-line with the medical community who are

tested nationally.since we are medical?

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of McNevin

Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 12:26 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: RE: Another Interesting Bill

Respect is earned by your performance in the field and the working

relationship you develop with your peers, not by a test you take to enter

the profession. I took a state test in 1988 to become an EMT and did not

receive any respect just because I had a patch. I worked hard to be the best

EMT I could and over the years have worked beside and had an excellent

relationship with many Physicians and Nurses. I proved myself in the field

and earned their respect. As far as following suit and going through a

national testing process, I took the national Registry exam and passed it on

the first attempt just to see if I could. Did that make me a better EMT and

respected more by my peers? No. In all my years of serving in the field of

EMS, I have never had a Physician or Nurse ever ask to see my card or say "

Gee, your good. You must hold national registry certification. "

To: texasems-l

From: toni_crippen@...

Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:25:44 -0600

Subject: RE: Another Interesting Bill

I was thinking about this on my way home from shift this morning, and

something didn't quite sit right from what I read below. You are asking why

Texas doesn't have a STATE test for EMS and are comparing our testing to Law

and Fire. However, in my opinion, we are more closely aligned with

Physicians and Nurses which, both, have a national testing process.

Shouldn't we follow suit with the medical community to be more respected by

that same group?

Toni Crippen, LP

Pflugerville

From: texasems-l

[mailto:texasems-l ]

On

Behalf Of cfdc1

Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 2:16 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Another Interesting Bill

As I read all of these posts about this accreditation issue I can't help but

wonder, to be in Texas law enforcement you pass an approved course

consisting of an approved curriculum and pass a STATE TEST. To be in the

fire service in Texas you pass a course consisting of an ACCREDITED

CURRICULUM and pass a STATE TEST. Why then to be in the EMS profession in

Texas do you pass a course consisting of a national standard curriculum and

then have to take a test given by a bunch of outsiders? You can't tell me

that the DSHS can't develop and implement an evaluation process to test our

own students. We did it for years and it seemed to work fine. I received my

certification in 1988 and the course was harder than the exam. TECLOSE and

the TCFP have their own curriculums and evaluation processes for years and

they work just fine. They have never been asked to " outsource " their

evaluation process to save money. Maybe the DSHS should pay them a visit and

see how they do it.

Years ago when the legislature decided some cuts needed to be made who in

the DSHS thought that " outsourcing " our EMS testing was a good idea. It

doesn't seem to be such a good idea now does it? Especially when we have a

bunch of " outsiders " dictating to us what we are going to teach, how we will

teach it, and where they are going to allow us to teach it. The way I see it

is we have only two choices here. Either find a way to fund and take our

program back, provide oversight, and test our students ourselves or quit

whinning and move forward with the NR Accreditation process and just deal

with it. We placed ourselves in this position by relinquishing control of

the evaluation process in the first place.

In closing I just want to say that at the last Medical Director Committee

meeting Maxie Bishop hit the nail on the head when he stated " We are the

State of Texas. We should be leading not following " . We must ask ourselves

the question, " How's that outsourcing thing working out for us and are we

leading or being led? "

[Guest guest]

I don't believe that Medical Directors care what type of test a paramedic takes

to become certified. They are more concerned with the Paramedic being competent

and able to understand and follow their protocols and provide quality patient

care. I believe that the educational program makes good Paramedics not the

test. To this day we have excellent Paramedics who completed an educational

program way back when, passed a STATE TEST, and provide outstanding patient

care. As far as being in the medical community you are correct but most nurses

are jealous of Paramedics because they are allowed to administer care that

nurses can't (an ER Physician allowed me to intubate a patient in the ER one

time and if looks could kill, the one I got from the Nurse would have killed me)

and all Physicians care about is compliance with their protocols. I don't think

that there are any Medical Directors who will not let a Paramedic practice under

their license unless they have a National Registry card.

To: texasems-l

From: toni_crippen@...

Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:04:53 -0600

Subject: RE: Another Interesting Bill

Hmm. Guess I phrased that last question incorrectly. You are right, it's

not about respect.

So, I retract and resubmit.

Shouldn't our testing be more in-line with the medical community who are

tested nationally.since we are medical?

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of McNevin

Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 12:26 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: RE: Another Interesting Bill

Respect is earned by your performance in the field and the working

relationship you develop with your peers, not by a test you take to enter

the profession. I took a state test in 1988 to become an EMT and did not

receive any respect just because I had a patch. I worked hard to be the best

EMT I could and over the years have worked beside and had an excellent

relationship with many Physicians and Nurses. I proved myself in the field

and earned their respect. As far as following suit and going through a

national testing process, I took the national Registry exam and passed it on

the first attempt just to see if I could. Did that make me a better EMT and

respected more by my peers? No. In all my years of serving in the field of

EMS, I have never had a Physician or Nurse ever ask to see my card or say "

Gee, your good. You must hold national registry certification. "

To: texasems-l

From: toni_crippen@...

Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:25:44 -0600

Subject: RE: Another Interesting Bill

I was thinking about this on my way home from shift this morning, and

something didn't quite sit right from what I read below. You are asking why

Texas doesn't have a STATE test for EMS and are comparing our testing to Law

and Fire. However, in my opinion, we are more closely aligned with

Physicians and Nurses which, both, have a national testing process.

Shouldn't we follow suit with the medical community to be more respected by

that same group?

Toni Crippen, LP

Pflugerville

From: texasems-l

[mailto:texasems-l ]

On

Behalf Of cfdc1

Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 2:16 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Another Interesting Bill

As I read all of these posts about this accreditation issue I can't help but

wonder, to be in Texas law enforcement you pass an approved course

consisting of an approved curriculum and pass a STATE TEST. To be in the

fire service in Texas you pass a course consisting of an ACCREDITED

CURRICULUM and pass a STATE TEST. Why then to be in the EMS profession in

Texas do you pass a course consisting of a national standard curriculum and

then have to take a test given by a bunch of outsiders? You can't tell me

that the DSHS can't develop and implement an evaluation process to test our

own students. We did it for years and it seemed to work fine. I received my

certification in 1988 and the course was harder than the exam. TECLOSE and

the TCFP have their own curriculums and evaluation processes for years and

they work just fine. They have never been asked to " outsource " their

evaluation process to save money. Maybe the DSHS should pay them a visit and

see how they do it.

Years ago when the legislature decided some cuts needed to be made who in

the DSHS thought that " outsourcing " our EMS testing was a good idea. It

doesn't seem to be such a good idea now does it? Especially when we have a

bunch of " outsiders " dictating to us what we are going to teach, how we will

teach it, and where they are going to allow us to teach it. The way I see it

is we have only two choices here. Either find a way to fund and take our

program back, provide oversight, and test our students ourselves or quit

whinning and move forward with the NR Accreditation process and just deal

with it. We placed ourselves in this position by relinquishing control of

the evaluation process in the first place.

In closing I just want to say that at the last Medical Director Committee

meeting Maxie Bishop hit the nail on the head when he stated " We are the

State of Texas. We should be leading not following " . We must ask ourselves

the question, " How's that outsourcing thing working out for us and are we

leading or being led? "

[Guest guest]

not sure about Rob's sources, but considering the number of EMT grads who

are working as ED techs, non driving fire fighters, end up as paramedics on

mixed trucks, end up as flight or military medics who don't drive EVs, or

are transport nurses or MEDEVAC pilots who are taking the course for

professional development, not to mention all of the EMT grads who end up

driving

transfer vans (non EV), I'd hazard a guess that as a first approximation

many fewer EMTs need EVOC as part of their class than those who can utilize

the time more productively otherwise. Wether or not this is a 'vast majority'

remains to be seen.

I personally feel that a full on EVOC course should be the (mandatory,

enforced by the insurance carrier if not the state) responsibility of the

employer, since each different company will have a different mix of equipment,

and the level of EVOC needed to safely operate a fly car is much less than

that needed to operate a *very* top heavy medium duty ambulance, not to

mention the problems involved in the save EV operation of a 500 gallon quint!

Also, folks, please remember the smilies if you are using hyperbole or

sarcasm to make your points.

ck

In a message dated 03/12/11 08:40:46 Central Standard Time,

kellow.bob@... writes:

" But since the vast majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an

emergency vehicle... " Source please?

[Guest guest]

not sure about Rob's sources, but considering the number of EMT grads who

are working as ED techs, non driving fire fighters, end up as paramedics on

mixed trucks, end up as flight or military medics who don't drive EVs, or

are transport nurses or MEDEVAC pilots who are taking the course for

professional development, not to mention all of the EMT grads who end up

driving

transfer vans (non EV), I'd hazard a guess that as a first approximation

many fewer EMTs need EVOC as part of their class than those who can utilize

the time more productively otherwise. Wether or not this is a 'vast majority'

remains to be seen.

I personally feel that a full on EVOC course should be the (mandatory,

enforced by the insurance carrier if not the state) responsibility of the

employer, since each different company will have a different mix of equipment,

and the level of EVOC needed to safely operate a fly car is much less than

that needed to operate a *very* top heavy medium duty ambulance, not to

mention the problems involved in the save EV operation of a 500 gallon quint!

Also, folks, please remember the smilies if you are using hyperbole or

sarcasm to make your points.

ck

In a message dated 03/12/11 08:40:46 Central Standard Time,

kellow.bob@... writes:

" But since the vast majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an

emergency vehicle... " Source please?

[Guest guest]

On Friday, March 11, 2011 12:26, " McNevin " cfdc1@...> said:

> In all my years of serving in the

> field of EMS, I have never had a Physician or Nurse ever ask to see my card or

say

> " Gee, your good. You must hold national registry certification. "

This is an instance where it is exceptionally important to look past the trees

in order to see the forest. It's not about you. It's about the profession as a

whole. And darn few of those physicians or nurses have the slightest idea what

our standards are. Most would be revolted to know that a true national standard

does not exist in our so-called profession.

Toni is right. Whatever the cops and hose-monkeys are doing is wholly

irrelevant to EMS. In medicine, national standards are the standard. I don't

practise public safety. I practise medicine.

This sort of brings me back to the recent discussion of EVOC training in EMT

school. What a load of nonsense. If EMT school ever actually starts teaching a

minimally acceptable (by my standards) level of medicine, then they can start

thinking about wasting a lot of time and money on EVOC. But since the vast

majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an emergency vehicle, I can't

see any real justification for it.

Rob

[Guest guest]

" But since the vast majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an

emergency vehicle... " Source please?

On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 8:36 AM, rob.davis@... <

rob.davis@...> wrote:

>

>

> On Friday, March 11, 2011 12:26, " McNevin " cfdc1@...> said:

>

> > In all my years of serving in the

> > field of EMS, I have never had a Physician or Nurse ever ask to see my

> card or say

> > " Gee, your good. You must hold national registry certification. "

>

> This is an instance where it is exceptionally important to look past the

> trees in order to see the forest. It's not about you. It's about the

> profession as a whole. And darn few of those physicians or nurses have the

> slightest idea what our standards are. Most would be revolted to know that a

> true national standard does not exist in our so-called profession.

>

> Toni is right. Whatever the cops and hose-monkeys are doing is wholly

> irrelevant to EMS. In medicine, national standards are the standard. I don't

> practise public safety. I practise medicine.

>

> This sort of brings me back to the recent discussion of EVOC training in

> EMT school. What a load of nonsense. If EMT school ever actually starts

> teaching a minimally acceptable (by my standards) level of medicine, then

> they can start thinking about wasting a lot of time and money on EVOC. But

> since the vast majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an emergency

> vehicle, I can't see any real justification for it.

>

> Rob

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Amen Rob! Well said!

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

RE: Another Interesting Bill

On Friday, March 11, 2011 12:26, " McNevin " cfdc1@...> said:

> In all my years of serving in the

> field of EMS, I have never had a Physician or Nurse ever ask to see my card or

say

> " Gee, your good. You must hold national registry certification. "

This is an instance where it is exceptionally important to look past the trees

in order to see the forest. It's not about you. It's about the profession as a

whole. And darn few of those physicians or nurses have the slightest idea what

our standards are. Most would be revolted to know that a true national standard

does not exist in our so-called profession.

Toni is right. Whatever the cops and hose-monkeys are doing is wholly

irrelevant to EMS. In medicine, national standards are the standard. I don't

practise public safety. I practise medicine.

This sort of brings me back to the recent discussion of EVOC training in EMT

school. What a load of nonsense. If EMT school ever actually starts teaching a

minimally acceptable (by my standards) level of medicine, then they can start

thinking about wasting a lot of time and money on EVOC. But since the vast

majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an emergency vehicle, I can't

see any real justification for it.

Rob

[Guest guest]

On Saturday, March 12, 2011 08:40, " Bob Kellow " kellow.bob@...> said:

> " But since the vast majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an

> emergency vehicle... " Source please?

Source: 36 years of first-hand observation. Empirical? Sure. But I'm not

writing a paper for scientific review. Just sharing a consistent observation.

Rob

[Guest guest]

On Saturday, March 12, 2011 08:40, " Bob Kellow " kellow.bob@...> said:

> " But since the vast majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an

> emergency vehicle... " Source please?

Source: 36 years of first-hand observation. Empirical? Sure. But I'm not

writing a paper for scientific review. Just sharing a consistent observation.

Rob

[Guest guest]

Except the cops and hose monkeys have established national standard. POST and

NFPA respectively.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Training Program Manager

Fire & Safety Specialists, Inc.

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

Please excuse any typos.

(Cell)

(Office)

(Office Fax)

LNMolino@...

Lou@...

> Amen Rob! Well said!

> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

>

> RE: Another Interesting Bill

>

> On Friday, March 11, 2011 12:26, " McNevin " cfdc1@...> said:

>

>> In all my years of serving in the

>> field of EMS, I have never had a Physician or Nurse ever ask to see my card

or say

>> " Gee, your good. You must hold national registry certification. "

>

> This is an instance where it is exceptionally important to look past the trees

in order to see the forest. It's not about you. It's about the profession as a

whole. And darn few of those physicians or nurses have the slightest idea what

our standards are. Most would be revolted to know that a true national standard

does not exist in our so-called profession.

>

> Toni is right. Whatever the cops and hose-monkeys are doing is wholly

irrelevant to EMS. In medicine, national standards are the standard. I don't

practise public safety. I practise medicine.

>

> This sort of brings me back to the recent discussion of EVOC training in EMT

school. What a load of nonsense. If EMT school ever actually starts teaching a

minimally acceptable (by my standards) level of medicine, then they can start

thinking about wasting a lot of time and money on EVOC. But since the vast

majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an emergency vehicle, I can't

see any real justification for it.

>

> Rob

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Empirical? Sure.

No that be anecdotal empirical would be science based.

Thank you for that BTW.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Training Program Manager

Fire & Safety Specialists, Inc.

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

Please excuse any typos.

(Cell)

(Office)

(Office Fax)

LNMolino@...

Lou@...

On Mar 12, 2011, at 9:18, " rob.davis@... "

rob.davis@...> wrote:

> On Saturday, March 12, 2011 08:40, " Bob Kellow " kellow.bob@...> said:

>

>> " But since the vast majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an

>> emergency vehicle... " Source please?

>

> Source: 36 years of first-hand observation. Empirical? Sure. But I'm not

writing a paper for scientific review. Just sharing a consistent observation.

>

> Rob

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Empirical? Sure.

No that be anecdotal empirical would be science based.

Thank you for that BTW.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Training Program Manager

Fire & Safety Specialists, Inc.

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

Please excuse any typos.

(Cell)

(Office)

(Office Fax)

LNMolino@...

Lou@...

On Mar 12, 2011, at 9:18, " rob.davis@... "

rob.davis@...> wrote:

> On Saturday, March 12, 2011 08:40, " Bob Kellow " kellow.bob@...> said:

>

>> " But since the vast majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an

>> emergency vehicle... " Source please?

>

> Source: 36 years of first-hand observation. Empirical? Sure. But I'm not

writing a paper for scientific review. Just sharing a consistent observation.

>

> Rob

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Rob,

I don't know what, if any, EMS systems you have been involved with but in the

four I have worked for ( F.D. based, hospital based, and private) I , as an EMT,

drove the majority of the time. With the shift of EMS to provide an advanced

level of patient care from bedside to the hospital, the majority of the time it

is an ALS patient (by the Medical Directors protocols) and the EMT drives. As

far as EVOC training goes, are you telling me that it is not necessary because

ambulances are never involved in accidents? What happened in Austin just a few

weeks ago? As far as teaching minimally acceptable standards, the courses I took

and the ones I now teach all follow the DOT National Curricula. EMS does not

practice medicine, we practice pre-hospital emergency care under the direction

of a Medical Director who writes protocols which allow us to do what we do in

the field. We are an extension of the Physician. We are not the Physician.

You say you " practice medicine " does that mean you make a diagnosis and

prescribe medicine in the field? Do you not transport your patients to the

hospital to be seen by a Physician? If that is the case I want to work for your

system and Medical Director. This is the most progressive EMS system I have ever

heard of. But you might want to keep that a secret because a lot of Physicians

could be out of work.

In closing any time I try to have an adult conversation with someone and they

resort to name-calling and disrespecting another's profession I assume they are

uninformed and not very professional. I have been a " hose-monkey " for

thirty-seven years and have provided EMS service, either by ambulance or First

Responder response, all those years. I do not consider myself " irrelevant " to

the EMS community but a vital part of it.

To: texasems-l

From: scottywmiles@...

Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 14:45:47 +0000

Subject: Re: Another Interesting Bill

Amen Rob! Well said!

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

RE: Another Interesting Bill

On Friday, March 11, 2011 12:26, " McNevin " cfdc1@...> said:

> In all my years of serving in the

> field of EMS, I have never had a Physician or Nurse ever ask to see my card or

say

> " Gee, your good. You must hold national registry certification. "

This is an instance where it is exceptionally important to look past the trees

in order to see the forest. It's not about you. It's about the profession as a

whole. And darn few of those physicians or nurses have the slightest idea what

our standards are. Most would be revolted to know that a true national standard

does not exist in our so-called profession.

Toni is right. Whatever the cops and hose-monkeys are doing is wholly irrelevant

to EMS. In medicine, national standards are the standard. I don't practise

public safety. I practise medicine.

This sort of brings me back to the recent discussion of EVOC training in EMT

school. What a load of nonsense. If EMT school ever actually starts teaching a

minimally acceptable (by my standards) level of medicine, then they can start

thinking about wasting a lot of time and money on EVOC. But since the vast

majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an emergency vehicle, I can't

see any real justification for it.

Rob

[Guest guest]

Rob,

I don't know what, if any, EMS systems you have been involved with but in the

four I have worked for ( F.D. based, hospital based, and private) I , as an EMT,

drove the majority of the time. With the shift of EMS to provide an advanced

level of patient care from bedside to the hospital, the majority of the time it

is an ALS patient (by the Medical Directors protocols) and the EMT drives. As

far as EVOC training goes, are you telling me that it is not necessary because

ambulances are never involved in accidents? What happened in Austin just a few

weeks ago? As far as teaching minimally acceptable standards, the courses I took

and the ones I now teach all follow the DOT National Curricula. EMS does not

practice medicine, we practice pre-hospital emergency care under the direction

of a Medical Director who writes protocols which allow us to do what we do in

the field. We are an extension of the Physician. We are not the Physician.

You say you " practice medicine " does that mean you make a diagnosis and

prescribe medicine in the field? Do you not transport your patients to the

hospital to be seen by a Physician? If that is the case I want to work for your

system and Medical Director. This is the most progressive EMS system I have ever

heard of. But you might want to keep that a secret because a lot of Physicians

could be out of work.

In closing any time I try to have an adult conversation with someone and they

resort to name-calling and disrespecting another's profession I assume they are

uninformed and not very professional. I have been a " hose-monkey " for

thirty-seven years and have provided EMS service, either by ambulance or First

Responder response, all those years. I do not consider myself " irrelevant " to

the EMS community but a vital part of it.

To: texasems-l

From: scottywmiles@...

Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 14:45:47 +0000

Subject: Re: Another Interesting Bill

Amen Rob! Well said!

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

RE: Another Interesting Bill

On Friday, March 11, 2011 12:26, " McNevin " cfdc1@...> said:

> In all my years of serving in the

> field of EMS, I have never had a Physician or Nurse ever ask to see my card or

say

> " Gee, your good. You must hold national registry certification. "

This is an instance where it is exceptionally important to look past the trees

in order to see the forest. It's not about you. It's about the profession as a

whole. And darn few of those physicians or nurses have the slightest idea what

our standards are. Most would be revolted to know that a true national standard

does not exist in our so-called profession.

Toni is right. Whatever the cops and hose-monkeys are doing is wholly irrelevant

to EMS. In medicine, national standards are the standard. I don't practise

public safety. I practise medicine.

This sort of brings me back to the recent discussion of EVOC training in EMT

school. What a load of nonsense. If EMT school ever actually starts teaching a

minimally acceptable (by my standards) level of medicine, then they can start

thinking about wasting a lot of time and money on EVOC. But since the vast

majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an emergency vehicle, I can't

see any real justification for it.

Rob

[Guest guest]

At a time when the entire EMS industry is treatened by its conspicuous lack

of cohesion and homogeneity, nothing can be more destructive than to

continue flogging your fellow EMS workers with condescension, ridicule and

hyperbole. Your " 36 years of first-hand observation " have obviously not

served you well. " Hose monkeys? " Really?

On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Louis N. Molino, Sr. lnmolino@...>wrote:

>

>

> Empirical? Sure.

>

> No that be anecdotal empirical would be science based.

>

> Thank you for that BTW.

>

> Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

> FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

> Training Program Manager

> Fire & Safety Specialists, Inc.

> Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

> Please excuse any typos.

> (Cell)

> (Office)

> (Office Fax)

>

> LNMolino@...

> Lou@...

>

> On Mar 12, 2011, at 9:18, " rob.davis@... " <

> rob.davis@...> wrote:

>

> > On Saturday, March 12, 2011 08:40, " Bob Kellow " kellow.bob@...>

> said:

> >

> >> " But since the vast majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an

> >> emergency vehicle... " Source please?

> >

> > Source: 36 years of first-hand observation. Empirical? Sure. But I'm not

> writing a paper for scientific review. Just sharing a consistent

> observation.

> >

> > Rob

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

At a time when the entire EMS industry is treatened by its conspicuous lack

of cohesion and homogeneity, nothing can be more destructive than to

continue flogging your fellow EMS workers with condescension, ridicule and

hyperbole. Your " 36 years of first-hand observation " have obviously not

served you well. " Hose monkeys? " Really?

On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Louis N. Molino, Sr. lnmolino@...>wrote:

>

>

> Empirical? Sure.

>

> No that be anecdotal empirical would be science based.

>

> Thank you for that BTW.

>

> Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

> FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

> Training Program Manager

> Fire & Safety Specialists, Inc.

> Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

> Please excuse any typos.

> (Cell)

> (Office)

> (Office Fax)

>

> LNMolino@...

> Lou@...

>

> On Mar 12, 2011, at 9:18, " rob.davis@... " <

> rob.davis@...> wrote:

>

> > On Saturday, March 12, 2011 08:40, " Bob Kellow " kellow.bob@...>

> said:

> >

> >> " But since the vast majority of all EMT grads will never, ever drive an

> >> emergency vehicle... " Source please?

> >

> > Source: 36 years of first-hand observation. Empirical? Sure. But I'm not

> writing a paper for scientific review. Just sharing a consistent

> observation.

> >

> > Rob

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Bob Kellow wrote: >>> At a time when the entire EMS industry is

treatened by its conspicuous lack of cohesion and homogeneity, nothing can be

more destructive than to continue flogging your fellow EMS workers with

condescension, ridicule and hyperbole. <<<

Does anyone else notice the irony of using hyperbole to condemn another post

that used hyperbole?

Bob, I think (n = 1) you are one of the bright minds in EMS. However, for

consistency, if you are going to ask for references from other writers when they

post hyperbole, perhaps you should do the same.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 10:29 AM, knavarro141 <

kenneth.navarro@...> wrote:

>

>

> Bob Kellow wrote: >>> At a time when the entire EMS

> industry is treatened by its conspicuous lack of cohesion and homogeneity,

> nothing can be more destructive than to continue flogging your fellow EMS

> workers with condescension, ridicule and hyperbole. <<<

>

> Does anyone else notice the irony of using hyperbole to condemn another

> post that used hyperbole?

>

> Bob, I think (n = 1) you are one of the bright minds in EMS. However, for

> consistency, if you are going to ask for references from other writers when

> they post hyperbole, perhaps you should do the same.

>

> Kenny Navarro

> Dallas

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Did I suggest an unsubstantiated metric?

On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 10:29 AM, knavarro141 <

kenneth.navarro@...> wrote:

>

>

> Bob Kellow wrote: >>> At a time when the entire EMS

> industry is treatened by its conspicuous lack of cohesion and homogeneity,

> nothing can be more destructive than to continue flogging your fellow EMS

> workers with condescension, ridicule and hyperbole. <<<

>

> Does anyone else notice the irony of using hyperbole to condemn another

> post that used hyperbole?

>

> Bob, I think (n = 1) you are one of the bright minds in EMS. However, for

> consistency, if you are going to ask for references from other writers when

> they post hyperbole, perhaps you should do the same.

>

> Kenny Navarro

> Dallas

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kenny consistency in EMS is an oxymoron.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Training Program Manager

Fire & Safety Specialists, Inc.

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

Please excuse any typos.

(Cell)

(Office)

(Office Fax)

LNMolino@...

Lou@...

On Mar 12, 2011, at 10:29, " knavarro141 " kenneth.navarro@...>

wrote:

> Bob Kellow wrote: >>> At a time when the entire EMS industry

is treatened by its conspicuous lack of cohesion and homogeneity, nothing can be

more destructive than to continue flogging your fellow EMS workers with

condescension, ridicule and hyperbole. <<<

>

> Does anyone else notice the irony of using hyperbole to condemn another post

that used hyperbole?

>

> Bob, I think (n = 1) you are one of the bright minds in EMS. However, for

consistency, if you are going to ask for references from other writers when they

post hyperbole, perhaps you should do the same.

>

>

> Kenny Navarro

> Dallas

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kenny consistency in EMS is an oxymoron.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Training Program Manager

Fire & Safety Specialists, Inc.

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

Please excuse any typos.

(Cell)

(Office)

(Office Fax)

LNMolino@...

Lou@...

On Mar 12, 2011, at 10:29, " knavarro141 " kenneth.navarro@...>

wrote:

> Bob Kellow wrote: >>> At a time when the entire EMS industry

is treatened by its conspicuous lack of cohesion and homogeneity, nothing can be

more destructive than to continue flogging your fellow EMS workers with

condescension, ridicule and hyperbole. <<<

>

> Does anyone else notice the irony of using hyperbole to condemn another post

that used hyperbole?

>

> Bob, I think (n = 1) you are one of the bright minds in EMS. However, for

consistency, if you are going to ask for references from other writers when they

post hyperbole, perhaps you should do the same.

>

>

> Kenny Navarro

> Dallas

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bob Kellow wrote: >>> Did I suggest an unsubstantiated metric?

<<<

Yes, you did.

You asked Rob (message 88467) to substantiate his metric " vast majority of all

EMT grads " .

You used the terms, " ... the entire EMS industry is threatened ... " and " ...

nothing can be more destructive ... "

Those sound like " facts " in the same way Rob used a " fact. "

Upon what you do you base your assertion about the " entire " EMS industry? And,

" nothing " can be more destructive - really ... NOTHING?

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

Bob Kellow wrote: >>> Did I suggest an unsubstantiated metric?

<<<

Yes, you did.

You asked Rob (message 88467) to substantiate his metric " vast majority of all

EMT grads " .

You used the terms, " ... the entire EMS industry is threatened ... " and " ...

nothing can be more destructive ... "

Those sound like " facts " in the same way Rob used a " fact. "

Upon what you do you base your assertion about the " entire " EMS industry? And,

" nothing " can be more destructive - really ... NOTHING?

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

You know...the nursing home RN that aggravates you on your next shift passed the

same test as the really cool flight nurse that steps off the helicopter later in

the same shift to get their RN. It is what you do after the test that makes the

difference...we have to have a marker to get into the profession, after that it

depends on a whole host of factors as to what the person becomes.

Dudley

Another Interesting Bill

As I read all of these posts about this accreditation issue I can't help but

wonder, to be in Texas law enforcement you pass an approved course

consisting of an approved curriculum and pass a STATE TEST. To be in the

fire service in Texas you pass a course consisting of an ACCREDITED

CURRICULUM and pass a STATE TEST. Why then to be in the EMS profession in

Texas do you pass a course consisting of a national standard curriculum and

then have to take a test given by a bunch of outsiders? You can't tell me

that the DSHS can't develop and implement an evaluation process to test our

own students. We did it for years and it seemed to work fine. I received my

certification in 1988 and the course was harder than the exam. TECLOSE and

the TCFP have their own curriculums and evaluation processes for years and

they work just fine. They have never been asked to " outsource " their

evaluation process to save money. Maybe the DSHS should pay them a visit and

see how they do it.

Years ago when the legislature decided some cuts needed to be made who in

the DSHS thought that " outsourcing " our EMS testing was a good idea. It

doesn't seem to be such a good idea now does it? Especially when we have a

bunch of " outsiders " dictating to us what we are going to teach, how we will

teach it, and where they are going to allow us to teach it. The way I see it

is we have only two choices here. Either find a way to fund and take our

program back, provide oversight, and test our students ourselves or quit

whinning and move forward with the NR Accreditation process and just deal

with it. We placed ourselves in this position by relinquishing control of

the evaluation process in the first place.

In closing I just want to say that at the last Medical Director Committee

meeting Maxie Bishop hit the nail on the head when he stated " We are the

State of Texas. We should be leading not following " . We must ask ourselves

the question, " How's that outsourcing thing working out for us and are we

leading or being led? "

[Guest guest]

You know...the nursing home RN that aggravates you on your next shift passed the

same test as the really cool flight nurse that steps off the helicopter later in

the same shift to get their RN. It is what you do after the test that makes the

difference...we have to have a marker to get into the profession, after that it

depends on a whole host of factors as to what the person becomes.

Dudley

Another Interesting Bill

As I read all of these posts about this accreditation issue I can't help but

wonder, to be in Texas law enforcement you pass an approved course

consisting of an approved curriculum and pass a STATE TEST. To be in the

fire service in Texas you pass a course consisting of an ACCREDITED

CURRICULUM and pass a STATE TEST. Why then to be in the EMS profession in

Texas do you pass a course consisting of a national standard curriculum and

then have to take a test given by a bunch of outsiders? You can't tell me

that the DSHS can't develop and implement an evaluation process to test our

own students. We did it for years and it seemed to work fine. I received my

certification in 1988 and the course was harder than the exam. TECLOSE and

the TCFP have their own curriculums and evaluation processes for years and

they work just fine. They have never been asked to " outsource " their

evaluation process to save money. Maybe the DSHS should pay them a visit and

see how they do it.

Years ago when the legislature decided some cuts needed to be made who in

the DSHS thought that " outsourcing " our EMS testing was a good idea. It

doesn't seem to be such a good idea now does it? Especially when we have a

bunch of " outsiders " dictating to us what we are going to teach, how we will

teach it, and where they are going to allow us to teach it. The way I see it

is we have only two choices here. Either find a way to fund and take our

program back, provide oversight, and test our students ourselves or quit

whinning and move forward with the NR Accreditation process and just deal

with it. We placed ourselves in this position by relinquishing control of

the evaluation process in the first place.

In closing I just want to say that at the last Medical Director Committee

meeting Maxie Bishop hit the nail on the head when he stated " We are the

State of Texas. We should be leading not following " . We must ask ourselves

the question, " How's that outsourcing thing working out for us and are we

leading or being led? "