Re: INSOMNIA!

March 3, 2008

Low cortisol can keep you awake at night just as much as high does. It

does this as when you get too low you go hypoglycemic then your body

releases adrenaline. End of sleep for hours after tht. You can try

taking some Isocort at bedtime and not eating any carbs after baout 5PM

then eating high protein at bedtime. Sometimes this combo is helpful

sometimes it just takes ghetting the cortils higher to be able to return

to normal sleep. Slow.ly raising the Isocort until you can tolerate HC

would be my suggestion.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

March 4, 2008

>> Does high cortisol keep you awake? My brother was on very high dose of

predisolone, i think 60mg for rumatide arthritis and he said he was

sleeping better than normal!<<

Yes high cortisol can keep you awake. However often it is high ACTH that is

triggering high adrenaline that causes the sleeplessness rather than the

cortisol itself.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

March 4, 2008

Metta,

Have you had ferritin checked? Low ferritin makes it difficult to tolerate

thyroid meds.

Also, ask for your vitamin D 25 hydroxy level to be checked. When you talk of

being in the sunshime and sleep was good, you may need supplementation with a

prescription strength Vitamin D.

in OH

March 4, 2008

I'm back on the prednisolone liquid as my MI doc suggested at it does

seem to be smoothing out those blood sugar problems a few hours after

I fall asleep. I took it one hour before bed last night (lights out at

10PM Val) and didn't take or need my usual bed-time dose of HC cream.

However, I am still waking up at 4AM, like clockwork, every night and

unable to get back to sleep until 6AM if then. Took half of an Ambien

at 4:15AM and all it did was make me a zombie for when I did have to

get up at 7AM. Whatever is waking me up at 4AM is powerful - guess

it's adrenaline then even though I didn't push it hard yesterday,

tried to rest a lot, and took most of my HC earlier in the day as we

discussed. Spoke to GA doc and he suggested changing my HC dosing to

15-10-7.5-7.5 and to drop the night-time dose but wasn't too psyched

about the pred. again. He wants me to try the chromium again and some

homeopathic sleep patches that he sent me that work with energy. I

bought them although I am skeptical.

Has anyone else with the 4AM wake-ups found a remedy that seems to work?

Thanks,

>

> >> Does high cortisol keep you awake? My brother was on very high

dose of

> predisolone, i think 60mg for rumatide arthritis and he said he was

> sleeping better than normal!<<

>

> Yes high cortisol can keep you awake. However often it is high ACTH

that is triggering high adrenaline that causes the sleeplessness

rather than the cortisol itself.

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

>

March 4, 2008

>>Has anyone else with the 4AM wake-ups found a remedy that seems to work?<<

YES! Shooting the neighbor's dog! EVERY Am at 4:15 she goes out, thump on my

front room window and wkes MY dog who then yips and wakes me up. Took me months

to find out what was waking me up.. Are you sure there is not a train or

something in YOUR neighborhood that happens at 4AM?

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

March 4, 2008

Since weaning off of HC, I have been waking up at 4:00 a.m. as

well. I come out to the computer for a while....watch the

sunrise, then crawl back into bed for another hour of sleep. Funny

thing is I see my neigbor flip her light switch on about 10 minutes

after I come out to my computer. Poor thing must have the same

curse.

Don't know if it has to do with taking less HC or not. But this

week I've deciced to up the HC again to see if that's it. If it

is...then back to HC for a while, and forget about weaning!

What's waking you up? Have you tried a protein snack?

>

> >>Has anyone else with the 4AM wake-ups found a remedy that seems

to work?<<

>

> YES! Shooting the neighbor's dog! EVERY Am at 4:15 she goes out,

thump on my front room window and wkes MY dog who then yips and

wakes me up. Took me months to find out what was waking me up.. Are

you sure there is not a train or something in YOUR neighborhood that

happens at 4AM?

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane

WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

>

March 4, 2008

Hi ,

The 4am wake-up happens to me occasionally. I might have it for a week

or so and then it goes away for a while. I can't seem to find anything

to help it.

I have read that some people suffer from hyperventilation without

actually knowing it and that contributes to lower blood suger and the

consequent " adrenal buzz " felt in the middle of the night.

Typical symptoms of hyperventilation are:

-sensation of not being able to get one's breath, a sensation of not

be being able to get enough air, a need to take deep breaths, sigh,

yawn, a sensation of " not enough oxygen " .

-mouth breathing

This probably doesn't apply to you, but I thought I'd post it anyway

as you never know.

Go to http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/article.cfm?id=362 page 116-118 for

more info including self-tests you can do and remedies.

Let me know if you find a cure,

March 4, 2008

I usually wake up between 3:30 and 5:00 sometime, and if I eat

something (usually Ezekiel Bread toast), then I can go back to sleep.

If not, I'm wide awake for a couple of hours. This is no doubt

hypoglycemia (with the accompanying adrenaline Val mentioned), but I

don't always feel hungry.

March 4, 2008

http://www.usdoctor.com/cortisol.htm

I thought of you when I read this about adrenals & insomnia.

Gale

March 4, 2008

Wife came to bed at 3:45AM last night and has been keeping hours like

that lately. I can't shoot her (she'll be the only one with health

insurance if I keep going like I'm going and, the way our house is

laid out, the only thing that I could do to separate us sleeping is

for me to sleep on the pull-out sofa downstairs which would not be

kind to my body. Whether the catalyst for waking me up is her, a full

bladder, or a loud car outside, it's what happens afterwards that

makes it impossible to fall back to sleep - racing thoughts and weird

images like Barb's DH described, maybe stomach growling a little (a

lot less now that I'm using the pred), sweating at first. And then,

even if I get up and eat a little, drink some salt water to make sure

that I'm not dehydrated and even take another sleeping pill (although

only half) I still can't get back to sleep. Yesterday when I tried to

take a nap at 3PM I was exhausted and fell asleep but woke up with

like a jolt after less than 10 minutes, started sweating and got

anxious. I have been reading on some psych forums that that kind of

stuff is sometimes associated with benzos like Klonopin so I am

starting to suspect that it could be part of my problem - maybe my new

and improved metabolism is cooking through what used to be an adequate

dose of it and I'm having some withdrawal. My psy doc's initial answer

was to take more (nat) but I told her that I think that I want to try

to wean off instead but that I am afraid to because it is likely to

make the sleep and anxiety even worse. I picked up my samples of

Seroquel (subject of another post) and I'm going to do some reading on

it. It might help me through this rough patch and help me wean off of

the Klonopin.

Or the whole thing could still be cortisol related and I'm barking up

the wrong tree. I just sort of feel like I'm on the right track with

the pred. and that something else has been contributing to this trap

that I am in.

QUESTION FOR VAL - Speaking of pred., MI doc's idea was to try 1ml for

three nights, and then to double to 2mls for three nights, and then to

double again to 3mls and hold. Do you think that I should go for it

in the hopes of just bringing up that over-all level of cortisol in

the blood or stay pat since it seems to be having the desired effect

of smoothing out the blood sugar jags although it isn't, by itself,

helping with the 4AM wake-ups.

Thanks,

P.S. Sorry about the length and the rambling - lack of sleep will do

that to you

>

> >>Has anyone else with the 4AM wake-ups found a remedy that seems to

work?<<

>

> YES! Shooting the neighbor's dog! EVERY Am at 4:15 she goes out,

thump on my front room window and wkes MY dog who then yips and

wakes me up. Took me months to find out what was waking me up.. Are

you sure there is not a train or something in YOUR neighborhood that

happens at 4AM?

March 4, 2008

It is still sounding liek hypoglycemia. BUT eating after the fact is too

lat eot help you go back to sleep as it has already caused that

adrenaline release. More Pred at that bedtime dose?

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

March 4, 2008

jasrich wrote:

> Or the whole thing could still be cortisol related and I'm barking up

> the wrong tree.

>

> QUESTION FOR VAL - Speaking of pred., MI doc's idea was to try 1ml for

> three nights, and then to double to 2mls for three nights, and then to

> double again to 3mls and hold. Do you think that I should go for it

>

,

Though I'm not Val, and will be very interested in her opinion, I'd go

for the upping the pred (although I do not like pred) before going to

yet another heavy duty drug like seroquel. Do investigate it thoroughly,

won't you?

I found this which I don't like the sound of--

http://www.seroquel-diabetes-lawsuit.com/

sol

March 4, 2008

Hi Metta, I wish that I had an answer for you, but if it's any

consolation, you're not alone. There are a lot of us here with sleep

issues and my major issue since beginning treatment/support for my

adrenals (also only discovered after I started trying to treat my

hypothyroid condition with T3 meds like Cytomel and now Armour) has

been insomnia and it has recently gotten worse and more consistent.

I'm not as bad as yours, apparently, because, with the help of drugs

like klonopin, lunesta, and ambien, and maybe, just maybe, getting

close to getting my HC figured out, I do get to sleep and stay asleep

for anywhere from 4-6 hours which I know some people would kill for.

The problem for me, as for you and so many others here, is that we

need more and better sleep than that in order to heal the adrenals and

we're not getting it. I wake up consistently at 3-4AM and then can't

sleep, or sleep as you described - half asleep or less for hours until

I have to get up and then I'm wrecked in the AM. I usually can't even

nap for more than 5-10 minutes, if I can nap at all, despite feeling

exhausted. I posted earlier about trying to take a nap yesterday and

waking up suddenly after 5 minutes, sweating and in half of an anxiety

attack.

My multiple pronged approach is to have a sleep study done (seeing the

doc for a consult this week); get my HC rhythm worked out

(supplementing HC with prednisolone for me b/c the blood sugar highs

and lows cause me problems in the middle of the night as well as all

day); trying a small dose of Seroquel which is prescribed, off-label,

for anxiety and insomnia; and trying to wean off of the Klonopin that

I have been taking for a couple of months and that I think might be

contributing to my insomnia and retarding my adrenal recovery.

I agree with Val that on that low a dose of HC (that you are getting

from Isocort) you are probably not improving your chances of being

able to sleep and you might be making it worse. If you have labs you

should post them so that people can comment on them and give you more

informed advice. If your adrenals are in bad enough shape you might

need to give the HC another chance - you're very lucky to have a doc

willing to even think about prescribing it.

Good luck and I hope that we find some good sleep soon.

>

> Hello all,

>

> I need some help. I cannot for the life of me get sleep, which as we

> all know, is desperately needed to help the adrenals & thyroid

> recover. I have persistent, unrelenting, horrible insomnia that

> doesn't respond to any sort of meds/supplements, and I was NEVER

> insomniac before they started me on and off a bunch of different

> treatment/meds back in July 2007.

March 4, 2008

>QUESTION FOR VAL - Speaking of pred., MI doc's idea was to try 1ml for

> three nights, and then to double to 2mls for three nights, and then to

> double again to 3mls and hold. Do you think that I should go for it

>

I agree this si a better option than going to Seroquel. It is still soundoing

liek hypoglycemai which mean you simply need mroe steroid.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

March 4, 2008

Different things wake me up - the wife has the last couple of nights,

but I should be sleeping soundly enough for it not to matter b/c I

have a white noise machine, we have a king-size bed, and she's small

and quiet and she used to not wake me up. Even when she comes to bed

earlier (which for her, lately is more like 2AM) and I happen to wake

up I can usually get back to sleep. It's the time - 3-4AM - and

whatever our bodies are doing at that time that is doing it.

Barb has pointed out that 3-5AM is when healthy adrenals are supposed

to start producing the cortisol for 6-8AM when we are supposed to wake

up (which is why so many of us can probably relate how hard it was to

get up early for years before we ended up in this state) and that,

trying and failing to produce that cortisol maybe they're creating

adrenaline instead (at least I think that Barb said something like

that once).

Val has pointed out that if you didn't have enough cortisol during the

day, i.e., you're running at a deficit, the adrenals will struggle all

night and that could be the cause. I don't think that we know for sure.

For me, this 4AM wake-up is different than a low cortisol/hypoglycemia

wake-up which I am very familiar with - waking up 2 or 3 hours after

falling asleep starving and with a stomach ache. I end up in the same

place usually - unable to get back to sleep for hours b/c the adrenals

pump out adrenaline - but getting up to eat a little cheese and

stress-dose 2.5mg of HC used to help with those. I haven't been

waking up that way much, especially since using the prednisolone at

night. I do eat a before bed snack of sunflower or almond butter on a

few apple slices - another suggestion of Barb's.

It sounds to me that your adrenals might be struggling a little which

could be accounting for your wake-ups. If you have other adrenal

symptoms during the day (dizzy, or dizzy when standing, low BP,

difficulty tolerating your Armour), you might need to get back on the

HC for a while. I have taken heart from your account of successfully

weaning off of HC. I hope that if you do have to go back on it it is

only for a small amount and not for long.

>

> Since weaning off of HC, I have been waking up at 4:00 a.m. as

> well. I come out to the computer for a while....watch the

> sunrise, then crawl back into bed for another hour of sleep. Funny

> thing is I see my neigbor flip her light switch on about 10 minutes

> after I come out to my computer. Poor thing must have the same

> curse.

>

> Don't know if it has to do with taking less HC or not. But this

> week I've deciced to up the HC again to see if that's it. If it

> is...then back to HC for a while, and forget about weaning!

>

> What's waking you up? Have you tried a protein snack?

March 4, 2008

Hi , I used to suffer from air hunger but that is one of my hypo

symptoms that Armour seems to have resolved (it has helped me in some

respects). I'm sure that if any kind of respiratory problems are

accounting for my problem that they'll pick it up during my sleep

study since that's what they're primarily looking for as far as I

understand. I don't think that that is my problem, but I'll check out

the link.

Thanks,

>

> Hi ,

>

> The 4am wake-up happens to me occasionally. I might have it for a week

> or so and then it goes away for a while. I can't seem to find anything

> to help it.

>

> I have read that some people suffer from hyperventilation without

> actually knowing it and that contributes to lower blood suger and the

> consequent " adrenal buzz " felt in the middle of the night

>

March 4, 2008

Yes, that was his plan that I think you found to be worth trying - 1ml

for 3 nights, then double to 2ml for three nights, then to 3mls and

hold there and all of that without reducing HC dose. Then, if " that

wasn't working for me " start reducing HC from the night-time doses

first. I don't know that I need the extra as I'm not waking up hungry

like I used to, but if you think that it is still sounding like

hypoglycemia, maybe I do. Maybe instead of doubling just go to 1.25ml

which is the dose that I tried before and that is equal to 5mg of HC.

I did have some success at that dose before the rails came off a few

weeks ago and I quit it. I also think that I can take it later rather

than sooner as I was when I was taking it at 7PM. I took it almost at

9PM last night and went to bed at 10PM and it held at least through

4AM when I woke up and I didn't even start to feel hungry for 30

minutes afterwards while I laid there. I finally got up and ate some

cheese to go with my 5mg of Ambien and some salt water but it was too

late. I guess that I should check my blood sugar again at that time

before eating. Last I checked it at the wake-up (few days ago) it was 81.

>

> It is still sounding liek hypoglycemia. BUT eating after the fact is

too

> lat eot help you go back to sleep as it has already caused that

> adrenaline release. More Pred at that bedtime dose?

March 4, 2008

Thanks Sol. I did see that but I believe that it applied to people

who are on the much higher doses for the anti-psychotic benefits. I

would temporarily be on a much, much lower dose to help with the

anxiety and insomnia which will get worse as I try to wean off of

Klono. I know that this sounds like a slippery slope and it's similar

to the one that I'm on with Klono, but I'm going to talk more about it

with my psy doc, including the diabetes risks, and monitor my BS at

home too.

Thanks Sol,

> ,

> Though I'm not Val, and will be very interested in her opinion,

I'd go

> for the upping the pred (although I do not like pred) before going to

> yet another heavy duty drug like seroquel. Do investigate it

thoroughly,

> won't you?

> I found this which I don't like the sound of--

> http://www.seroquel-diabetes-lawsuit.com/

> sol

>

March 4, 2008

But double to 2ml as MI doc suggested or go up more slowly?

> I agree this si a better option than going to Seroquel. It is still

soundoing liek hypoglycemai which mean you simply need mroe steroid.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

>

March 4, 2008

Hello....

I truly appreciate all the help that I have been given so far, so I would like

to help as well. I have extensively studied natural treatments such as amino

acids and herbs and would like to share some of my knowledge....

May I suggest that you consider 5-HTP. It is the natural precursor to

serotonin, extracted from an african bean, TOTALLY crosses the blood brain

barrier and will also calm the mind....I take mine with Vitamin C/B complex both

from New Chapter organics since they are cultured whole food I feel that they

are more bioavailable for the body and thus our brains! Anyway, this stuff has

done wonders for me....I learned alot about the amino acids and such from 2

great books by Ross:

The Mood Cure

The Diet Cure

These books changed my life....

The waking up early is a definite symptom of low serotonin.....

I also have used True Calm by NOW with success as well. It contains many

amino acids known to calm the body and mind. It has Gaba in it, so if one were

on any benzo's that would help the weaning process...I know from experience. I

get most of supplements from a company called iherb.com or VRP.com. I feel that

they are both reliable and fast in their processing with nice prices.

jasrich jasrich@...> wrote: