Re: Overwhelmed-afraid

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

March 4, 2008

Thank you Val. I am reading too much into it, I think. I will keep

on top of things and definitely re-test all sex hormones before HC and

keep re-testing. ~Crystal

ENALS , wrote:

>

> I do not believe fo ra minute that HC lowers the sex hormones except

> ESTROGEN because it elevates it in ADRENAL fatigue whne it is low. It

> will not lower it too much unless oyu are on too much HC. With hypopit,

> you will have low estrogen form low FSH (I think that is th eone that

> stimulates estrogen) I think every 2 months is fine to test sex

> hormones. JUts stick with one dose for that time and retest to see

if it

> needs ot be tweaked higher or lower. but progesterone does NOT

> adequately replace estrpgen.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

>

March 5, 2008

>

> I do not believe fo ra minute that HC lowers the sex hormones

except

> ESTROGEN because it elevates it in ADRENAL fatigue whne it is low.

It

> will not lower it too much unless oyu are on too much HC. With

hypopit,

> you will have low estrogen form low FSH (I think that is th eone

that

> stimulates estrogen) I think every 2 months is fine to test sex

> hormones. JUts stick with one dose for that time and retest to see

if it

> needs ot be tweaked higher or lower. but progesterone does NOT

> adequately replace estrpgen.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/me

>

Hello Val

I'm confused as to WHY you don't think HC lowers Sex Hormones?

It certainly can lower DHEA and if that is lowered of course anything

made from DHEA may be affected. This includes Androstenedione,

Testosterone & Estradiol. This is more likely IF you are Hypopit with

Secondary AI rather than Primary AI I understand?

Also is VERY IMPORTANT if you are Menopoausal or Postmenopausal as

this is where your Estrogens come from. If you're Premenopausal at

least your ovaries can still make Estrogens. However you would STILL

have problems with Testosterone???

One month after starting Adrenal Meds these are my results which show

so my DHEA, Androstenedione, Testosterone & Estradiol

were ALL affected. Progesterone which I take transdermally was the

ONLY Sex hormone that WASN'T AFFECTED!!! That is because I finally

had enough Cortisol & did not need to turn the prog INTO Cortisol!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

ANDROGENS

NOTE:I IGNORE the 'age adjusted' DHEAS range

I use the 'youthfull' Lab Ref Range INSTEAD

Goal for DHEAS is top 25% of this Range

24th NOV'07

on 15mg DHEA from 2004

Testosterone........ 2.2 nmol/L (0.02-2.9) *76% of Ref GOOD result

SHBG .................70 nmol/L (26-110) *a bit high

FAI ..................3.........(0.51-6.5) *a bit low

DHEAS ...............7.2 umol/L (0.9-11.7) *good 58% BUT still

suboptimal

Androstenedione......4.6 nmol/L (1-11.5)

Free Test ............24 pmol/L (4-39) *reasonable

29th FEB'08

on 20mg DHEA capsules from 1st Dec'07

Testosterone........ 0.1 nmol/L (0.02-2.9) *BELOW RANGE DEFICIENCY

SHBG .................44 nmol/L (26-110) *much better

FAI ...................0........(0.51-6.5) *ZERO????????

DHEAS ...............0.6 umol/L (0.9-11.7) *BELOW RANGE DEFICIENCY

Androstenedione......1.0 nmol/L (1-11.5) *BOTTOM OF RANGE

Free Test ...........1.6 pmol/L (4-39) *BELOW RANGE DEFICIENCY

======================================================================

ssage/46482

HORMONES

24th NOV'07 *Peri-Menopausal Result

On Biest 1mg & Profeme(Progesterone)32 mg since 4th Dec'06

(No HRT for 7 days prior & day of test)

FSH..................24 U/L *still Postmenopausal

LH ..................24 U/L *still Postmenopausal

E2..................245 pmol/L *doubled pre-HRT levels

Prog................0.4 nmol/L *80% LESS than pre-HRT

LH/FSH Ratio.......1

29th FEB'08 *Menopausal Result

On Biest 1mg since 4th Dec'06

On Profeme(Progesterone)64mg since 1st Dec'07

(No HRT for 3 days prior & day of test)

FSH..................30 U/L

LH ..................17 U/L

E2...................89 pmol/L *DROPPED 60% since last test

Prog................2.5 nmol/L *now back to preHRT levels

LH/FSH Ratio.......0.57 *halved

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Saw your post where you recommended this website. The following is

from that site-

----------------------------------------------------------------------

DHEA

http://www.hormonerestoration.com/DHEA.html

DHEA is the most abundant steroid hormone in the body. With its

sulphated form, DHEAS, it circulates in levels that are 20 times

higher than cortisol and 500 to 1000 times higher than Testosterone

in men or Progesterone in women.

It is secreted by the ADRENAL GLANDS and its levels drop 50% by age

40 and continue to decline with age. We don't know everything that it

does, but it's obviously very important.

WE DO KNOW THAT CELLS THROUGHOUT THE BODY TAKE IN DHEA AND DHEA-S AND

CONVERT THEM INTO ESTRADIOL AND TESTOSTERONE.

It is estimated that this " intracrine " process provides 70% of a

young woman's total Androgen effect.

DHEA is not only a precursor to other sex hormones but is ALSO A

HORMONE IN ITS OWN RIGHT — stimulating processes that build and

restore all systems in our bodies. It counteracts the negative

effects of excess amounts of the stress hormone Cortisol.

DHEA helps to reverse the effects of stress on the immune system. It

reduces cardiovascular risk by increasing lipolysis or breakdown of

fat. It helps restore sexual vitality. It improves mood, memory, and

mental acuity. It helps build muscle and bone. It reduces pain by

improving our natural endorphin levels.

IT IMPROVES INSULIN SENSITIVITY, THUS HELPING TO PREVENT OR ALLEVIATE

ADULT - ONSET DIABETES.

Higher DHEAS levels have been shown to be associated with lower risk

of heart attacks and death. It may play a role in helping to prevent

breast cancer. (Labrie 2006). DHEA improves fertility in older women.

It has anti-inflammatory effects; reducing levels of inflammatory

molecules like interleukin-6 and tumour necrosis factor alpha. DHEA

is an effective treatment for Systemic Lupus Erythematosis,

ulcerative colitis, and no doubt for many autoimmune/inflammatory

diseases.

Replacement studies have found no deleterious effects, even at very

high doses.

RESTORING DHEA TO YOUTHFUL LEVELS MAKES ALL THE SENSE IN THE WORLD.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So making sure your DHEA is high normal in the YOUTHFULL RANGE

(regardless of your age) is important particularly if you use HC. It

actually protects against side effects of too much Cortisol. Also

protects aginst risk of Diabetes & Insulin Resistence.I think many

who have problems with Glucose despite HC don't think to check &

monitor their DHEA levels!!!!

It is also needed to restore your Libido which many of us sorely need.

March 5, 2008

>>I'm confused as to WHY you don't think HC lowers Sex Hormones?

It certainly can lower DHEA <<

You know I hear this occasionally and have NEVER found the proof. Where are you

gettign this info? Do you have alink to a real study that says HC lowers DHEA? I

would love to see the proof of this as I really have never found it. I also have

not found it to happen in most people. What I think this gets started form is

that HC lowerd ACTH which MAY or MAY not lower DHEA. DHEA is stimulated by more

than JUST ACTH, but in a secondary where OTHER stimulus os not present from the

pituitary, this may be the case. But this list of mostly peolle wth adrenal

fatigue so I speak generally for most of us, where as long as we are not totally

supressing ACTH whch we really TRY not to do, it would not lower DHEA.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://www.hormonerestoration.com/DHEA.html

March 5, 2008

>>Saw your post where you recommended this website. The following is

from that site-

----------------------------------------------------------------------

DHEA

ANd where here do you see that HC lowers DHEA?

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/38/6/488.pdf

March 5, 2008

Howdy Val,

Found this article. States pretty convincingly that Glucocorticoids

DO lower DHEA because they lower ACTH. Just as you said above.

====================================================================

" Should DHEA Replacement Therapy Be Provided with Glucocorticoids? "

=====================================================================

Now if you are Primary AI you don't have low ACTH so perhaps not such

a problem. As ACTH is not low then Primaries have DHEA levels that

are usually normal or high to start with.

If you are Secondary AI however BOTH ACTH & DHEA are usually low. In

fact it is one of the ways that Primary & Secondary AI are

distinquished from one another.

Add in these other 'risk factors'

*Women ~ DHEA is mainly produced in the Adrenals whereas Men produce

some in the Testes as well

*your age ~ DHEA declines with age (speculated to be because of

downregulated/stressed Adrenals)

*Menopausal/Postmenopausal ~ little or no Estrogens produced by

ovaries, so DHEA becomes the main/only source of Estrogens.

So the highest risk category for HC (Glucocorticoids)having serious

consequences for DHEA (and ALL hormones made from them)is a

Menopausal Woman who has Secondary AI.

Guess what category I fit into?

Now I realise we are talking physiological dose of HC and the dose is

NOT designed to COMPLETELY suppress ACTH. The fact remains that it

does at least PARTIALLY suppress ACTH.BUT IF your ACTH is already

suppressed by being Hypopituitary (Secondary AI), and the HC

suppresses it that little bit more.....? Exactly HOW badly your sex

hormones are going to be affected depends on HOW LOW your ACTH was to

start with & how much HC you are on???

In my case my ACTH was low and I am on 30mg HC equiv (a pretty

average dose-not excessive)and within one month my Androgens are

almost undetectable and my Estrogen levels halved. All this happened

DESPITE already doing HRT for DHEA ,Progesterone & Estrogen.

Hence the possibility that you may need to do HRT for DHEA,

Testosterone, Estrogen and Progesterone should be cosidered

especially if you fit into the HIGHEST RISK CATEGORY as explained

above.

So what do you think?

Lethal Lee

----------------------------------------------------------------------

In NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS ,

wrote:

>

> >>Saw your post where you recommended this website. The following

is

> from that site-

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> DHEA

> http://www.hormonerestoration.com/DHEA.html

>

> ANd where here do you see that HC lowers DHEA?

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

>

March 5, 2008

>>Hence the possibility that you may need to do HRT for DHEA,

Testosterone, Estrogen and Progesterone should be cosidered

especially if you fit into the HIGHEST RISK CATEGORY as explained

above.

So what do you think?<<

Exactly. If it is JUST adrenal fatigue and you are replacing HC properly, it

should not be as much of a problem, especially as DHEA is triggered not JUST by

ACTH, but in cases of pituitary insufficiency EXPECT ALL hormones to be low, and

test and adjust as needed. One thing I have read alot of that I disagree with

on this subject is having the cortisol and thyroid RIGHT before adjusting sex

hormones. Sometimes it is not possible to feel well at all when sex hormones are

all low. Mine are. I am not secondary but VERY depleted from having a hyst at 27

years old and not properly replaced since then. That may in fact be part of why

I have adrenal fatigue at all, well that and under treated hypo for 25 years

concurrently. I always followed the school of thought that you COULD optimize

thyroid by symptoms and later do sex hormones and I no longer believe that is

necessary or wise.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/38/6/488.pdf

March 5, 2008

Assuming all you wrote is accurate, what I don't get is why (since I am

confirmed low in DHEA) I feel worse when I take it.

What could be happening?

Anybody know?

sol

pricklefoot3 wrote:

> Howdy Val,

>

> Found this article. States pretty convincingly that Glucocorticoids

> DO lower DHEA because they lower ACTH. Just as you said above.

>

> ====================================================================

> " Should DHEA Replacement Therapy Be Provided with Glucocorticoids? "

>

> =====================================================================

>

March 5, 2008

Now I see why your advice to me has changed. At first you did tell me to

do 1)adrenals, 2)thyroid, and 3) worry about sex hormones later.

Your sex hormone homework is showing, LOL.

sol

wrote:

> Exactly. If it is JUST adrenal fatigue and you are replacing HC properly, it

should not be as much of a problem, especially as DHEA is triggered not JUST by

ACTH, but in cases of pituitary insufficiency EXPECT ALL hormones to be low, and

test and adjust as needed. One thing I have read alot of that I disagree with

on this subject is having the cortisol and thyroid RIGHT before adjusting sex

hormones................I always followed the school of thought that you COULD

optimize thyroid by symptoms and later do sex hormones and I no longer believe

that is necessary or wise.

>

March 5, 2008

I was told by my doctor that you must have a good amount of estrogen to

utilize DHEA properly. I break out from DHEA pretty badly and asked h8im

why he said my estrogen was too low, so far with estrogen I can tolerate

5MG a day but not 10~ LOL

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

March 5, 2008

But I thought DHEA was a precursor to estrogen. ??

Barb

>

> I was told by my doctor that you must have a good amount of

estrogen to

> utilize DHEA properly. I break out from DHEA pretty badly and asked

h8im

> why he said my estrogen was too low, so far with estrogen I can

tolerate

> 5MG a day but not 10~ LOL

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

>

March 5, 2008

DHEA is a precursor to adrenal estrogen but not ovarian estrogen!

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

March 5, 2008

Sol, my DHEA came back a " 1 " so very low...when I went on it I too had

problems, I think because it plays with our hormones so much maybe??

SeaLady

Assuming all you wrote is accurate, what I don't get is why (since I am

confirmed low in DHEA) I feel worse when I take it.

What could be happening?

Anybody know?

sol

March 5, 2008

My DHEA was 2. Still very low. This is a puzzle. It will be interesting

to see if I can tolerate a minimal dose once I've been back on the

estradiol a while. How much were you taking? My last try was just 6 mg

per day.

sol

KC wrote:

> Sol, my DHEA came back a " 1 " so very low...when I went on it I too had

> problems, I think because it plays with our hormones so much maybe??

>

March 5, 2008

Sol, well my Endro when I showed him my salvia testing results told me to go

on 50 mg's of DHEA - well a couple of months of that and things were not

going too well for me to say the least. I also take Estrodial and

prometrium.

I've tried several times now to take smaller amounts like 5 - 12 mg's and

each time I had problems. I have never had acne in my life, (I don't have

much of any testosterone) so the DHEA sure caused that along with some other

skin problems, sinus from too much hormones etc.

SeaLady

Assuming all you wrote is accurate, what I don't get is why (since I am

confirmed low in DHEA) I feel worse when I take it.

What could be happening?

Anybody know?

sol

March 6, 2008

Oh maybe 15 years of adjusting thyroid thinking that was all that was

wrong and finding out it was sex hormones playing a HUGE role in my

symptoms. I am STUBBORN and I sometimes learn the VERY hard way.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://www.seewell4less.com/Valspage.htm Medical Alert Bracelets

March 6, 2008

From what I am reading estrogen should be near the top of it's rangfe

wihtout being over.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://www.seewell4less.com/Valspage.htm Medical Alert Bracelets

March 6, 2008

I'm stubborn too! Maybe all of us folks on this list can boast of this

powerful motivator! How did you find out it was sex hormones playing a

HUGE role in your symptoms?

Dahlia

>

> Oh maybe 15 years of adjusting thyroid thinking that was all that was

> wrong and finding out it was sex hormones playing a HUGE role in my

> symptoms. I am STUBBORN and I sometimes learn the VERY hard way.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://www.seewell4less.com/Valspage.htm Medical Alert Bracelets

>

March 6, 2008

I'm 67. When I was about 64, my then Dr told me my estradiol could be up to

200 (above most ranges I have seen). I still feel best when my E is around

150. I'm still having a problem using progesterone (and I have a uterus)

because of storing so much P on the Wiley Protocol. When I try P for even 2

or 3 days, it makes me VERY PMS feeling. My now Dr (very main stream

medicine) knows my history and tells me to just use E for now and he'll

monitor my uterus build up. I haven't had a period since last Oct so

decided to try P again. Yesterday was day 4 and I can't stand the way it

makes me feel so I'm giving up for now. I was just using Progest (20mg

daily). I'm using 8mg of E daily.

Delores

Re: Re: Overwhelmed-afraid

> From what I am reading estrogen should be near the top of it's rangfe

> wihtout being over.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://www.seewell4less.com/Valspage.htm Medical Alert Bracelets

>

March 6, 2008

This is interesting as abotu 3-4 years ago I had very high progesterone

due to supplementation thta I was accidentally using too much. I still

get veyr bad fluid retentoin and depressed feeligns from progesterone.

Is it possible this over dose lasts this long? I will have ot be asking

some pointed questions when I see this doc in April. Thankfully I do nto

have a uterus so really do nto have to worry about that side effect form

not taking it.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://www.seewell4less.com/Valspage.htm Medical Alert Bracelets

March 6, 2008

So Val, you found a doc you trust?! That will be interesting,

Dahlia

>

> This is interesting as abotu 3-4 years ago I had very high

progesterone

> due to supplementation thta I was accidentally using too much. I

still

> get veyr bad fluid retentoin and depressed feeligns from

progesterone.

> Is it possible this over dose lasts this long? I will have ot be

asking

> some pointed questions when I see this doc in April. Thankfully I

do nto

> have a uterus so really do nto have to worry about that side effect

form

> not taking it.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://www.seewell4less.com/Valspage.htm Medical Alert Bracelets

>

March 6, 2008

http://www.reproduction-online.org/cgi/content/abstract/69/1/73

In the Wiley protocol, women use 8,200mg of progesterone (P) every 28 days.

According to Dr Bent Formby, young healthy menstrual cycling women secrete

208 mg P during a 28 day cycle based on several studies evaluating serum and

urinary hormone levels. That would mean women secrete a total of 2,496 mg P

per year. He said if you use only 40mg a day that 1/2 of the P remained in

the body after 4 months.

So it can take quite a long time to rid your body of all the P stored in

fatty tissue. I'm finding that to be very true. I don't know what effect

this will have on my uterus. I struggled through a 10 day trial on P last

Oct and had a brief period. Haven't been able to stand enough P since then

to have another period.

Delores

Re: Re: Overwhelmed-afraid

> This is interesting as abotu 3-4 years ago I had very high progesterone

> due to supplementation thta I was accidentally using too much. I still

> get veyr bad fluid retentoin and depressed feeligns from progesterone.

> Is it possible this over dose lasts this long? I will have ot be asking

> some pointed questions when I see this doc in April. Thankfully I do nto

> have a uterus so really do nto have to worry about that side effect form

> not taking it.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://www.seewell4less.com/Valspage.htm Medical Alert Bracelets

>

March 6, 2008

I trust him YES! I am actually excited ot see this one I have been

chatting online for several months with but I am not at liberty to give

out his name as he is a bit scrutinized as almost all good doctors are

and really wants only local patients or people that can come ot see him.

Of course I do not trust him enough to forget all I have learned, but

between us I think I can get better than I am.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://www.seewell4less.com/Valspage.htm Medical Alert Bracelets

March 6, 2008

I don't know where....but I KNOW I've read somewhere, that excess

progesterone gets stored in the fat cells and can stay there for

life if you continue to supplement. That's why it is so important

to take 'breaks' from it so as not to get such a build up.

Make any sense?

Naffy

>

> This is interesting as abotu 3-4 years ago I had very high

progesterone

> due to supplementation thta I was accidentally using too much. I

still

> get veyr bad fluid retentoin and depressed feeligns from

progesterone.

> Is it possible this over dose lasts this long? I will have ot be

asking

> some pointed questions when I see this doc in April. Thankfully I

do nto

> have a uterus so really do nto have to worry about that side

effect form

> not taking it.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane

WV

>