Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 > > > > > > Dont be ridiculous. Okay, so maybe it is a little drammatic to say > > that you are killing people with this list but if this list > > encourages people who have had previous drinking problems to go out > > and drink then it is encouraging very dangerous bechavior which > could > > put peoples lives at risk. I think that is poor advice for someone > > with a history of drinking problems who is drinking just to fit in > > with new neighbors. And AA is proven to help people so why gather > > here to blast aa. I just think it is wreckless. > > > > > Kay, > It was suggested i get a sponsor, > " read the big book, > " find god, > " know and do this gods will, > " do what i'm told, > " this list could go on and on..... > then told if i wasn't willing to do these 'suggestions' > better go back out (use till the shit beats the crap out > of ya) then you'll be more then grateful to do what we > suggest. Some of my family and friends did not make it > back to carry on with those suggestions, which by the way > never cease to stop....if you are in AA and following > your sponsors directions....you should know this. If somebody told you that you should go back out and use if you were not willing to do all those things they were dead wrong. Are you sure you didn't just hear it that way? Some one actually said that to you just like that? You are describing a perversion of the program. AA is not to be used to beat anything out of anyone. My sponsor never treated me like that. She told me that if she was going to sponsor me then there would be a few requirements: telephone calls, meetings, study the big book, outreach work, that's all. I thought it was reasonable. She never told me what to do. > Telling someone they are going to die if they drink again, > then tell them to go back out, to manipulate them into > following the program....is malicious and cruel. > AA kills! > But it sounds like someone you know did die because they drank again. Wasn't this a reasonable and valid warning. I am truly sorry, but I don't follow how aa is responsible for this. I don't know how aa manipulates people into following the program. Its a matter of choice. Kay T. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 > In a message dated 11/1/01 12:38:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, > kahn_troll@y... writes: > > > > This is not > > aA's fault that people are not honest. You have made this point > > earlier so I don't know why you don't see this. > > > > > > I didn't say it was not because they were not honest. I said that it was > their choice but AA, like you are doing now, twists words up and ideas. They > say " constitutionally incapable. " What in the world does that mean? I would think that means they are kin to a pathological liar. Such people are probably rarities, just like the book says. I read this to mean that there are few people who just cant recover in aa if they give it an honest try. Its like Bill is saying, come on, you don't want to think of yourself as a pathological liar do you. Then why can't you give this a try? All it requires is honesty. Anybody can be honest. But for the grace of God, Kay T. " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer [big Book, p. 570] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 At 07:38 AM 01/11/01 +0000, you wrote: Hold on a minute. It does say that, but those are instructions to help people determine whether or not they are alcoholic or not. Don't you think it's kind of strange to give people those kind of instructions after you have told them that if you drink you will go insane or die? This is totally debatable. I know the office manager of my local intergroup was a devout atheist. Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon. Step 2 - Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity Step 3- Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Page 44- But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life- or else. Page 48 Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters... Page 55 - Actually we were fooling ourselves , for deep down in every man woman and child is a fundamental idea of God. Page 56- Who are we to believe that there is no God Page 62 - We had to have God's help Next we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His children. page 63- We were reborn page 63- God ,I offer myself to thee- to build with me and to do with me.... ad nauseum. God seems pretty important in AA to me. Heck, I am not religious. Hmmm, but you are in a fundamentalist Religious program called AA (a recent New York State supreme court decision recently declared this, oh yeah and you didn't hear about that in AA because they didn't want to alarm the membership, how kind of WSAA eh?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 At 07:38 AM 01/11/01 +0000, you wrote: Hold on a minute. It does say that, but those are instructions to help people determine whether or not they are alcoholic or not. Don't you think it's kind of strange to give people those kind of instructions after you have told them that if you drink you will go insane or die? This is totally debatable. I know the office manager of my local intergroup was a devout atheist. Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon. Step 2 - Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity Step 3- Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Page 44- But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life- or else. Page 48 Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters... Page 55 - Actually we were fooling ourselves , for deep down in every man woman and child is a fundamental idea of God. Page 56- Who are we to believe that there is no God Page 62 - We had to have God's help Next we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His children. page 63- We were reborn page 63- God ,I offer myself to thee- to build with me and to do with me.... ad nauseum. God seems pretty important in AA to me. Heck, I am not religious. Hmmm, but you are in a fundamentalist Religious program called AA (a recent New York State supreme court decision recently declared this, oh yeah and you didn't hear about that in AA because they didn't want to alarm the membership, how kind of WSAA eh?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 At 07:38 AM 01/11/01 +0000, you wrote: Hold on a minute. It does say that, but those are instructions to help people determine whether or not they are alcoholic or not. Don't you think it's kind of strange to give people those kind of instructions after you have told them that if you drink you will go insane or die? This is totally debatable. I know the office manager of my local intergroup was a devout atheist. Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon. Step 2 - Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity Step 3- Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Page 44- But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life- or else. Page 48 Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters... Page 55 - Actually we were fooling ourselves , for deep down in every man woman and child is a fundamental idea of God. Page 56- Who are we to believe that there is no God Page 62 - We had to have God's help Next we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His children. page 63- We were reborn page 63- God ,I offer myself to thee- to build with me and to do with me.... ad nauseum. God seems pretty important in AA to me. Heck, I am not religious. Hmmm, but you are in a fundamentalist Religious program called AA (a recent New York State supreme court decision recently declared this, oh yeah and you didn't hear about that in AA because they didn't want to alarm the membership, how kind of WSAA eh?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 " Heck, I'm not religous " Then why for the grace of God go you? > >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Re: Nuts! >Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 00:12:31 -0800 > >At 07:38 AM 01/11/01 +0000, you wrote: > >>Hold on a minute. It does say that, but those are instructions to >>help people determine whether or not they are alcoholic or not. > > >Don't you think it's kind of strange to give people those kind of >instructions after you have told them that if you drink you will go insane >or die? > > >> >> >> >> >>This is totally debatable. I know the office manager of my local >>intergroup was a devout atheist. > >Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked >His protection and care with complete abandon. > >Step 2 - Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore >us to sanity >Step 3- Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of >God as we understood Him. >Page 44- But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a >spiritual basis of life- or else. >Page 48 Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on >spiritual matters... >Page 55 - Actually we were fooling ourselves , for deep down in every man >woman and child is a fundamental idea of God. >Page 56- Who are we to believe that there is no God >Page 62 - We had to have God's help >Next we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be >our Director. He is the Principal; we are His children. >page 63- We were reborn >page 63- God ,I offer myself to thee- to build with me and to do with >me.... > >ad nauseum. God seems pretty important in AA to me. > >> Heck, I am not religious. >Hmmm, but you are in a fundamentalist Religious program called AA (a recent >New York State supreme court decision recently declared this, oh yeah and >you didn't hear about that in AA because they didn't want to alarm the >membership, how kind of WSAA eh?) > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 " Heck, I'm not religous " Then why for the grace of God go you? > >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Re: Nuts! >Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 00:12:31 -0800 > >At 07:38 AM 01/11/01 +0000, you wrote: > >>Hold on a minute. It does say that, but those are instructions to >>help people determine whether or not they are alcoholic or not. > > >Don't you think it's kind of strange to give people those kind of >instructions after you have told them that if you drink you will go insane >or die? > > >> >> >> >> >>This is totally debatable. I know the office manager of my local >>intergroup was a devout atheist. > >Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked >His protection and care with complete abandon. > >Step 2 - Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore >us to sanity >Step 3- Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of >God as we understood Him. >Page 44- But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a >spiritual basis of life- or else. >Page 48 Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on >spiritual matters... >Page 55 - Actually we were fooling ourselves , for deep down in every man >woman and child is a fundamental idea of God. >Page 56- Who are we to believe that there is no God >Page 62 - We had to have God's help >Next we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be >our Director. He is the Principal; we are His children. >page 63- We were reborn >page 63- God ,I offer myself to thee- to build with me and to do with >me.... > >ad nauseum. God seems pretty important in AA to me. > >> Heck, I am not religious. >Hmmm, but you are in a fundamentalist Religious program called AA (a recent >New York State supreme court decision recently declared this, oh yeah and >you didn't hear about that in AA because they didn't want to alarm the >membership, how kind of WSAA eh?) > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 So, do I understand correctly that people who are not successful in AA are pathological liars? kisses Tom Boy At 08:10 AM 01/11/01 +0000, kahn_troll@... wrote: I would think that means they are kin to a pathological liar. Such people are probably rarities, just like the book says. I read this to mean that there are few people who just cant recover in aa if they give it an honest try. Its like Bill is saying, come on, you don't want to think of yourself as a pathological liar do you. Then why can't you give this a try? All it requires is honesty. Anybody can be honest. But for the grace of God, Kay T. " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer [big Book, p. 570] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 So, do I understand correctly that people who are not successful in AA are pathological liars? kisses Tom Boy At 08:10 AM 01/11/01 +0000, kahn_troll@... wrote: I would think that means they are kin to a pathological liar. Such people are probably rarities, just like the book says. I read this to mean that there are few people who just cant recover in aa if they give it an honest try. Its like Bill is saying, come on, you don't want to think of yourself as a pathological liar do you. Then why can't you give this a try? All it requires is honesty. Anybody can be honest. But for the grace of God, Kay T. " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer [big Book, p. 570] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 > " kahn troll " = control > " but for the grace of God? " I bet you were real religious before you joined > to eh? > And spiritual my ass. God will do this for me and god will do that, does > not constitute a spiritual " program " . It is religious ,as " God " is a > religious figure. > > Why don't you grow up " just for today " and figure out, or atleast try to > figure out who kept you sober and why. > > YOU BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO! How flattering...and insulting.... " grow up " ? I was not religious nor have I ever been. I consider myself spiritual. The distinction is simple, I don't belong to any organized religion, but I believe there is something larger to life than meets the eye. I believe that consciousness is farther reaching than the information my senses feed me. I have tried to be in conscious contact with that larger thing. I pray in my own private way. I meditate. I have tried to rely on this farther reaching larger thing in staying sober. I never said anything about God doing this and that for me but it was seeking this relationship with this higher power that I believe helped me. Why is this such a far out idea for you? You have some sort of bias against spriritual/religious things. Maybe you should. I don't know what your personal experiences have been. Looks like not too good. AA does not require you to buy into anyone else's religious beliefs. Check out We Agnostics if you want to learn how prejudiced people can be toward religious things. There is much everyone can learn from religions. There is an old saying in aa, it is Ya gotta wanna. That's not all there is too it though. But for the grace of God, Kay T. " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer [big Book, p. 570] > > > >From: kahn_troll@y... > >Reply-To: 12-step-free@y... > >To: 12-step-free@y... > >Subject: Nuts! > >Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 03:21:37 -0000 > > > >I have been going to AA for 7 years. AA saved my life and the lives > >of many people I know. I cant believe some of the things I have read > >here. You all have AA all wrong. Look at some of the things in this > >group's description: > > > > >the groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine.> > > > >1. Doctine?!?!?!??? Clearly this group has got some basics of AA > >all wrong. From what little I have read here I can tell that of the > >basics that are understood, they are often twisted around to match > >the paranoid wishful fantasies of people who simply refuse to accept > >the size of the problem of alcoholism and the > >wholesale miracle that is Alcoholics Anonymous. But to be clear for > >those who have misunderstood, the 12 steps are suggestions, they are > >not doctrine! They are guides to spiritual progress. How can this be > >confusing? Granted, if you want to practice the 12 steps then there > >are specific instructions in the big book. The steps do have meaning > >and there are " clear cut directions " to follow if you want to > >practice the steps, but you are not required to practice the steps to > >be a member of AA. So how can you possibly accept that there is such > >a thing as 12 step doctrine? Ridiculous. > > > >2. A discussion list for those who have left the groups? Looks to me > >like a meeting place for dry drunks who want to drink and encourage > >others to do so. I read a few messages back of a person who started > >drinking again for social reasons and then several subsequent > >messages which support his decision to drink. I have never seen an > >imposture at an AA meeting. If you have a problem with alcohol, it is > >very likely that you will always react the same way no matter how > >long you manage to stay dry. It is an allergy and it is very > >disturbing to see an online forum which supports, even encourages > >alcoholics to go ahead and drink and criticize the only viable help > >for alcoholism > > > > > > >religion.> > > > >Religion? What are you people believing in here? SPIRITUAL!!!! It is > >a program of spiritual principles. Religious people are welcome, but > >this is not a religious program. " God and we undertood > >Him " !!! This > >should open the door wide for anyone who wants to try the steps. > > > > > > >information on the step groups.> > > > >More like disinformation and misinformation!!! > > > > > > >where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous > >majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character " or > >another for doing so.> > > > >AA has beat you to this, you are not going to be the first. The > >consensus at AA meetings can hardly be called unanimous. All opinions > >are welcome at AA. Though I will not be representing a majority of > >this particular group's opinions by pointing this out there are > >plenty of defects of character motivating this list. Cowardice, > >apathy, complacency, hypocrisy, ARROGANCE, fear, FEAR FEAR FEAR, and > >blatant irresponsible resentment. > > > > > > >organizations and methods of resolving drinking problems are > >available for the asking.> > > > >HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!! This list is an AA group. It is at the > >extreme fringe, but it is an AA meeting. It is a group of dry drunks > >gathered to bomb AA and somehow stay sober in the process. It is a > >hate group. Imagine seeing that in your AA meeting directory, The We > >Hate AA group. Only on the internet. > > > >AA has helped more people to sobriety than any other program. If > >there really are any other alternatives that work then where are > >they? Alcoholism is a spiritual illness. It requires a spiritual > >solution. AA gives that answer. You can fight and kick and scream but > >facts are facts. People like the guy on this list who drank with his > >neighbors will always come crawling back to AA after a relapse. Why > >do you think that is? Because there just isn't a better > >alternative. > >AA works. AA helps. It gives people their lives back. > > > >This list is very dangerous. How can you be justified in teaching > >people all these lies about AA. You are going to send people to their > >deaths with this page. Your ignorant views of AA are a deliberate > >bastardization of the program to suit your own recalcitrance. > >Unbelievable! I have seen difficult sponsees and some other > >alcoholics behave this way, I never thought I'd see the day when > >people like this would organize. > > > >But for the grace of God, > >Kay T. > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 > " kahn troll " = control > " but for the grace of God? " I bet you were real religious before you joined > to eh? > And spiritual my ass. God will do this for me and god will do that, does > not constitute a spiritual " program " . It is religious ,as " God " is a > religious figure. > > Why don't you grow up " just for today " and figure out, or atleast try to > figure out who kept you sober and why. > > YOU BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO! How flattering...and insulting.... " grow up " ? I was not religious nor have I ever been. I consider myself spiritual. The distinction is simple, I don't belong to any organized religion, but I believe there is something larger to life than meets the eye. I believe that consciousness is farther reaching than the information my senses feed me. I have tried to be in conscious contact with that larger thing. I pray in my own private way. I meditate. I have tried to rely on this farther reaching larger thing in staying sober. I never said anything about God doing this and that for me but it was seeking this relationship with this higher power that I believe helped me. Why is this such a far out idea for you? You have some sort of bias against spriritual/religious things. Maybe you should. I don't know what your personal experiences have been. Looks like not too good. AA does not require you to buy into anyone else's religious beliefs. Check out We Agnostics if you want to learn how prejudiced people can be toward religious things. There is much everyone can learn from religions. There is an old saying in aa, it is Ya gotta wanna. That's not all there is too it though. But for the grace of God, Kay T. " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer [big Book, p. 570] > > > >From: kahn_troll@y... > >Reply-To: 12-step-free@y... > >To: 12-step-free@y... > >Subject: Nuts! > >Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 03:21:37 -0000 > > > >I have been going to AA for 7 years. AA saved my life and the lives > >of many people I know. I cant believe some of the things I have read > >here. You all have AA all wrong. Look at some of the things in this > >group's description: > > > > >the groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine.> > > > >1. Doctine?!?!?!??? Clearly this group has got some basics of AA > >all wrong. From what little I have read here I can tell that of the > >basics that are understood, they are often twisted around to match > >the paranoid wishful fantasies of people who simply refuse to accept > >the size of the problem of alcoholism and the > >wholesale miracle that is Alcoholics Anonymous. But to be clear for > >those who have misunderstood, the 12 steps are suggestions, they are > >not doctrine! They are guides to spiritual progress. How can this be > >confusing? Granted, if you want to practice the 12 steps then there > >are specific instructions in the big book. The steps do have meaning > >and there are " clear cut directions " to follow if you want to > >practice the steps, but you are not required to practice the steps to > >be a member of AA. So how can you possibly accept that there is such > >a thing as 12 step doctrine? Ridiculous. > > > >2. A discussion list for those who have left the groups? Looks to me > >like a meeting place for dry drunks who want to drink and encourage > >others to do so. I read a few messages back of a person who started > >drinking again for social reasons and then several subsequent > >messages which support his decision to drink. I have never seen an > >imposture at an AA meeting. If you have a problem with alcohol, it is > >very likely that you will always react the same way no matter how > >long you manage to stay dry. It is an allergy and it is very > >disturbing to see an online forum which supports, even encourages > >alcoholics to go ahead and drink and criticize the only viable help > >for alcoholism > > > > > > >religion.> > > > >Religion? What are you people believing in here? SPIRITUAL!!!! It is > >a program of spiritual principles. Religious people are welcome, but > >this is not a religious program. " God and we undertood > >Him " !!! This > >should open the door wide for anyone who wants to try the steps. > > > > > > >information on the step groups.> > > > >More like disinformation and misinformation!!! > > > > > > >where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous > >majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character " or > >another for doing so.> > > > >AA has beat you to this, you are not going to be the first. The > >consensus at AA meetings can hardly be called unanimous. All opinions > >are welcome at AA. Though I will not be representing a majority of > >this particular group's opinions by pointing this out there are > >plenty of defects of character motivating this list. Cowardice, > >apathy, complacency, hypocrisy, ARROGANCE, fear, FEAR FEAR FEAR, and > >blatant irresponsible resentment. > > > > > > >organizations and methods of resolving drinking problems are > >available for the asking.> > > > >HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!! This list is an AA group. It is at the > >extreme fringe, but it is an AA meeting. It is a group of dry drunks > >gathered to bomb AA and somehow stay sober in the process. It is a > >hate group. Imagine seeing that in your AA meeting directory, The We > >Hate AA group. Only on the internet. > > > >AA has helped more people to sobriety than any other program. If > >there really are any other alternatives that work then where are > >they? Alcoholism is a spiritual illness. It requires a spiritual > >solution. AA gives that answer. You can fight and kick and scream but > >facts are facts. People like the guy on this list who drank with his > >neighbors will always come crawling back to AA after a relapse. Why > >do you think that is? Because there just isn't a better > >alternative. > >AA works. AA helps. It gives people their lives back. > > > >This list is very dangerous. How can you be justified in teaching > >people all these lies about AA. You are going to send people to their > >deaths with this page. Your ignorant views of AA are a deliberate > >bastardization of the program to suit your own recalcitrance. > >Unbelievable! I have seen difficult sponsees and some other > >alcoholics behave this way, I never thought I'd see the day when > >people like this would organize. > > > >But for the grace of God, > >Kay T. > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 > > It warns that if you are an alcoholic, then this is what you > >have to look forward to if you are going to continue. > > Based on what evidence is this statement made? Come on now. I thought you said you started thinking sometime in the past tense. There is a history of drunkards in the world as old as mankinds oldest stories. What usually happens to them? They do crazy things and die or go to jail or asylums. At the time of aas beginning this is waht was happening with alcoholics. It doesn't say 'people' or 'all people' it says alcoholic. It is a certain kind of drinker who faces this danger of institutions or death. The evidence can be found in the newspapers and certain history books. Although they might be lying, I doubt it. Perhaps you should conduct a scientific study to see what happens to the people that show up over and over in your county detoxification unit. > > > > This is > >perfectly realistic scenario for real alcoholics. If you got this > >message in AA but are not an alcoholic, then you need not be > >concerned with this warning. That would be called using your brain. > > You are not encouraged to use your brain in AA. You are not encouraged to > think. " Your best thinking got you here " . Have you never heard the slogan Think Think Think? But for the grace of God, Kay T. " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer [big Book, p. 570] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 > > It warns that if you are an alcoholic, then this is what you > >have to look forward to if you are going to continue. > > Based on what evidence is this statement made? Come on now. I thought you said you started thinking sometime in the past tense. There is a history of drunkards in the world as old as mankinds oldest stories. What usually happens to them? They do crazy things and die or go to jail or asylums. At the time of aas beginning this is waht was happening with alcoholics. It doesn't say 'people' or 'all people' it says alcoholic. It is a certain kind of drinker who faces this danger of institutions or death. The evidence can be found in the newspapers and certain history books. Although they might be lying, I doubt it. Perhaps you should conduct a scientific study to see what happens to the people that show up over and over in your county detoxification unit. > > > > This is > >perfectly realistic scenario for real alcoholics. If you got this > >message in AA but are not an alcoholic, then you need not be > >concerned with this warning. That would be called using your brain. > > You are not encouraged to use your brain in AA. You are not encouraged to > think. " Your best thinking got you here " . Have you never heard the slogan Think Think Think? But for the grace of God, Kay T. " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer [big Book, p. 570] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 > > It warns that if you are an alcoholic, then this is what you > >have to look forward to if you are going to continue. > > Based on what evidence is this statement made? Come on now. I thought you said you started thinking sometime in the past tense. There is a history of drunkards in the world as old as mankinds oldest stories. What usually happens to them? They do crazy things and die or go to jail or asylums. At the time of aas beginning this is waht was happening with alcoholics. It doesn't say 'people' or 'all people' it says alcoholic. It is a certain kind of drinker who faces this danger of institutions or death. The evidence can be found in the newspapers and certain history books. Although they might be lying, I doubt it. Perhaps you should conduct a scientific study to see what happens to the people that show up over and over in your county detoxification unit. > > > > This is > >perfectly realistic scenario for real alcoholics. If you got this > >message in AA but are not an alcoholic, then you need not be > >concerned with this warning. That would be called using your brain. > > You are not encouraged to use your brain in AA. You are not encouraged to > think. " Your best thinking got you here " . Have you never heard the slogan Think Think Think? But for the grace of God, Kay T. " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer [big Book, p. 570] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 I'll tell you what happens to those people who end up in the county detox unit. They keep getting sent back to you. Then they get told, "hey, that's the baffling power of the disease, keep coming back", they stick around for a while, and then go out. Maybe they don't want to quit. Maybe they should try one of the alternatives. Maybe they shouldn't be forced to believe that only one way of "getting better" is right. Maybe they should try something new. Why haven't you answered my ?'s yet? Re: Nuts! > > It warns that if you are an alcoholic, then this is what you> >have to look forward to if you are going to continue.> > Based on what evidence is this statement made?Come on now. I thought you said you started thinking sometime in the past tense. There is a history of drunkards in the world as old as mankinds oldest stories. What usually happens to them? They do crazy things and die or go to jail or asylums. At the time of aas beginning this is waht was happening with alcoholics. It doesn't say 'people' or 'all people' it says alcoholic. It is a certain kind of drinker who faces this danger of institutions or death. The evidence can be found in the newspapers and certain history books. Although they might be lying, I doubt it. Perhaps you should conduct a scientific study to see what happens to the people that show up over and over in your county detoxification unit.> > > > This is> >perfectly realistic scenario for real alcoholics. If you got this> >message in AA but are not an alcoholic, then you need not be> >concerned with this warning. That would be called using your brain.> > You are not encouraged to use your brain in AA. You are not encouraged to > think. "Your best thinking got you here".Have you never heard the slogan Think Think Think?But for the grace of God,Kay T."There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." - Herbert Spencer[big Book, p. 570] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 > > > >>Hold on a minute. It does say that, but those are instructions to > >>help people determine whether or not they are alcoholic or not. > > > > > >Don't you think it's kind of strange to give people those kind of > >instructions after you have told them that if you drink you will go insane > >or die? > > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>This is totally debatable. I know the office manager of my local > >>intergroup was a devout atheist. > > > >Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked > >His protection and care with complete abandon. > > > >Step 2 - Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore > >us to sanity > >Step 3- Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of > >God as we understood Him. > >Page 44- But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a > >spiritual basis of life- or else. > >Page 48 Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on > >spiritual matters... > >Page 55 - Actually we were fooling ourselves , for deep down in every man > >woman and child is a fundamental idea of God. > >Page 56- Who are we to believe that there is no God > >Page 62 - We had to have God's help > >Next we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be > >our Director. He is the Principal; we are His children. > >page 63- We were reborn > >page 63- God ,I offer myself to thee- to build with me and to do with > >me.... > > > >ad nauseum. God seems pretty important in AA to me. > > > >> Heck, I am not religious. > >Hmmm, but you are in a fundamentalist Religious program called AA (a recent > >New York State supreme court decision recently declared this, oh yeah and > >you didn't hear about that in AA because they didn't want to alarm the > >membership, how kind of WSAA eh?) > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 > So, do I understand correctly that people who are not successful in AA are > pathological liars? > > kisses > Tom Boy No. There are few. It is a rare case. Most people who are not successful just dont try. > > " We are the best police department in the world, but we are not perfect. > Rodney King should never have been hit 56 times, yet many of the blows > which struck him were correctly placed so as not to cause serious injury, > exactly as we teach in the Academy. " > > " Former LAPD chief, Daryl Gates " It is good to know that those cops kept their cool under pressure and remembered their training. It is doubly reassuring that the police are learning how to hit only to scare and not injure. But for the grace of God, Kay T. " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer [big Book, p. 570] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 > I'll tell you what happens to those people who end up in the county detox unit. They keep getting sent back to you. Then they get told, " hey, that's the baffling power of the disease, keep coming back " , they stick around for a while, and then go out. Maybe they don't want to quit. Maybe they should try one of the alternatives. Maybe they shouldn't be forced to believe that only one way of " getting better " is right. Maybe they should try something new. Why haven't you answered my ?'s yet? That's a nice try, but its not science. As for answering all your questions you will have to wait until this troll gets some sleep. I will also try to do this message more dignity. Until the PM... But for the grace of God, Kay T. " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer [big Book, p. 570] > > Re: Nuts! > > > > It warns that if you are an alcoholic, then this is what you > > >have to look forward to if you are going to continue. > > > > Based on what evidence is this statement made? > > Come on now. I thought you said you started thinking sometime in the > past tense. There is a history of drunkards in the world as old as > mankinds oldest stories. What usually happens to them? They do crazy > things and die or go to jail or asylums. At the time of aas beginning > this is waht was happening with alcoholics. It doesn't say 'people' > or 'all people' it says alcoholic. It is a certain kind of drinker > who faces this danger of institutions or death. > > The evidence can be found in the newspapers and certain history > books. Although they might be lying, I doubt it. Perhaps you should > conduct a scientific study to see what happens to the people that > show up over and over in your county detoxification unit. > > > > > > > > This is > > >perfectly realistic scenario for real alcoholics. If you got this > > >message in AA but are not an alcoholic, then you need not be > > >concerned with this warning. That would be called using your brain. > > > > You are not encouraged to use your brain in AA. You are not > encouraged to > > think. " Your best thinking got you here " . > > Have you never heard the slogan Think Think Think? > > But for the grace of God, > Kay T. > > " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which > is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man > (or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt > prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer > [big Book, p. 570] > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 Thank you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 No. I have investigated. I have attended AA for many years and seen much. I sense much contempt and bias here for things religious or spiritual. I sense much contempt for AA without much real knowledge or fair mindedness. I sense that a lot of people here have probably left AA without givning a fair shake. I am religious and spiritual. AA is not for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 Very well said!!! -----Original Message----- From: Fugittem@... So, I spent 3 and 1/2 years in the rooms of AA. Am I guilty of contempt prior to investigation? No, I am guilty of contempt after investigation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 Hi Kay Remember when you point a finger, three fingers are pointed back at yourself. I always acknowledge what is good in AA, can you admit that there is bad aspects too. abbadun >From: thesobrietist@... >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Nuts! >Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 06:33:11 -0000 > > > > " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which > > is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man >in > > everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to > > investigation. " - Herbert Spencer > > [big Book, p. 570] > >Hi, Kay T. > >Thanks for reminding us of the wisdom contained in the above quote. > >If you look around here, you will find the reasoned opinions of many >honest men and women who spent years in AA and/or its offshoots. > >They came, they saw, they investigated - and they felt contempt. > >And they talk about it here. > >Welcome aboard. And thanks for the topics - with any luck, you'll >keep us too busy for us to drink for a while. > >Regards, > > Tom > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 > That's a nice try, but its not science. As for answering all your > questions you will have to wait until this troll gets some sleep. I > will also try to do this message more dignity. Until the PM... > > But for the grace of God, > Kay T. Kay, Your responses are so very predictable. Read Dr. Schaler's article and you will know why many of us can predict what kind of bullshit you will come up with next. http://www.enabling.org/ia/szasz/schaler/fifth/cultbusting.html Tommy http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 .... > There > are over two million AA members in this country. That has to speak > for something. .... Wrong. According to AA's own statistics, there are just over ONE million members. The two million is the number alleged to be members worldwide. But well over a million people have been going through alcoholism/addiction treatment in this country EVERY YEAR for decades, and in most cases they have been strongly urged to go to AA after treatment. So what the numbers 'speak for' is that the vast majority of those who try AA, often under a degree of compulsion, reject it and/or find that it doesn't work. In the context of the treatment system in this country, and the huge influence of AA zealots on the media, gov't, and medical establishment, the total membership of AA is AMAZINGLY LOW. --wally Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 1, 2001 > > ... > > There > > are over two million AA members in this country. That has to speak > > for something. > ... > > Wrong. According to AA's own statistics, there are just over ONE > million members. The two million is the number alleged to be members > worldwide. > --------------- I'm also curious as to what they define as " member " . I suspect they are just counting heads at meetings. Now, if someone is at an AA meeting by coercion (court, employer, etc.) and has no interest in 12-step ideology or " working the program " , are they a " member " ? I hardly think so. I attended 5 meetings a week for 5 months -- at least 100 meetings -- and NEVER considered myself a " member " . I was just a person who was " present " , and wouldn't have been if I had any say in the matter. That is another reason why that " AA confession " ruling in New York State was so bizarre. The " confidentiality understanding among members " that was cited -- why would it apply to anyone who was present at the meeting but not committed to the program or its ideology?? If I had heard any murder confession at any of the meetings I went to, I sure as hell would have reported it to the authorities -- and anyone suggesting I had any obligation of confidentiality as an " AA member " would have been set straight in short order. ~Rita > But well over a million people have been going through > alcoholism/addiction treatment in this country EVERY YEAR for > decades, and in most cases they have been strongly urged to go to AA > after treatment. > > So what the numbers 'speak for' is that the vast majority of those > who try AA, often under a degree of compulsion, reject it and/or find > that it doesn't work. > > In the context of the treatment system in this country, and the huge > influence of AA zealots on the media, gov't, and medical > establishment, the total membership of AA is AMAZINGLY LOW. > > --wally Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
