Nuts!

[Guest guest]

>

> >> >here. You all have AA all wrong.

> >>

> >> So why are you telling us this? Do you think you are going to

> >> change us?

> >

> >

> >No you flippant boob. Do you ask this question of everyone who

tells

> >you soemthing?

>

> So you say you don't think you are going to change us, but you

> tell us that we all have AA all wrong. Why do you tell us this?

Sure it would be nice to clarify some things about AA. I think that

there is much misunderstanding and resentment about some anecdotal

ocurances in AA here. I share this view with you because there may be

vulnerable people visiting this group who may be supported in their

decision to drink where that may be very dangerous for them. I don't

expect to change people like you who may never have needed AA in the

first place.

> We've seen this point of view many times. I and some others have

> actually had that viewpoint. Ask some old-timers for an April 1990

> Grapevine magazine and read the Letters section (what was it, POBox

> 1980).

We have a ton of old Grapevines at my meeting. I will look for it

next week, but inthe meantime, could you post the letter here. My

meeting isn't until Monday.

>

> So who isn't a control freak in AA? Isn't it part of The Disease

of

> Alcoholism? Read the big book starting at the bottom of page

63: " Each

> person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show... "

Yes and more. This illustration of the actor wanting to run the show

is a description of how most people live, alcoholic or not. It is

meant to show how human beings create their own problems. This

actually starts on page 60 and continues on to 62 where it begins to

show how the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot.

This is a simple idea and it is not hard to see. For an alcoholic the

most important thing is a very self-centered concern. It is alcohol

and more of it. Yet I think it is unfair though for some people who

know me to call me a control freak because I don't hesitate to speak

my mind.

>

> >So I guess I am par for the course.

> >Besides I reckoned that I would called a troll when I joined this

> >list

>

> Anyone who defends AA on this list is called a troll, so you

should

> be relieved to hear that you are not " terminally unique. "

>

> >but I am not going to stand by without having something to say.

>

> And I and others here will not stand by without challenging you

> on your defense of AA.

Then we should be in for some fun.

>

> >> >How can you be justified in teaching

> >> >people all these lies about AA. You are going to send people to

> >their

> >> >deaths with this page.

> >>

> >> There you are, go ahead. Please. Call your local police. Call

the

> >> FBI. This list is killing people. Have them stop us. The lives

of

> >your

> >> fellow alcoholics depends on it.

> >> Don't hesitate, do it NOW!

> >

> >

> >Dont be ridiculous. Okay, so maybe it is a little drammatic to say

> >that you are killing people with this list

>

> So maybe you're the one being ridiculous.

Nope. Don't think so. I will admit to drama, but not comedy as you

have attempted above.

>

> >with new neighbors. And AA is proven to help people

>

> How is it proven? Where is it proven?

It is proven in my life and the lives of many people I know. There

are over two million AA members in this country. That has to speak

for something. Consider if you will all the years of AA history. How

many millions of people do you think AA has helped to sobriety

through the years. It is a good thing. It completely changed the way

the world treated alcoholics.

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

[big Book, p. 570]

[Guest guest]

>

> >> >here. You all have AA all wrong.

> >>

> >> So why are you telling us this? Do you think you are going to

> >> change us?

> >

> >

> >No you flippant boob. Do you ask this question of everyone who

tells

> >you soemthing?

>

> So you say you don't think you are going to change us, but you

> tell us that we all have AA all wrong. Why do you tell us this?

Sure it would be nice to clarify some things about AA. I think that

there is much misunderstanding and resentment about some anecdotal

ocurances in AA here. I share this view with you because there may be

vulnerable people visiting this group who may be supported in their

decision to drink where that may be very dangerous for them. I don't

expect to change people like you who may never have needed AA in the

first place.

> We've seen this point of view many times. I and some others have

> actually had that viewpoint. Ask some old-timers for an April 1990

> Grapevine magazine and read the Letters section (what was it, POBox

> 1980).

We have a ton of old Grapevines at my meeting. I will look for it

next week, but inthe meantime, could you post the letter here. My

meeting isn't until Monday.

>

> So who isn't a control freak in AA? Isn't it part of The Disease

of

> Alcoholism? Read the big book starting at the bottom of page

63: " Each

> person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show... "

Yes and more. This illustration of the actor wanting to run the show

is a description of how most people live, alcoholic or not. It is

meant to show how human beings create their own problems. This

actually starts on page 60 and continues on to 62 where it begins to

show how the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot.

This is a simple idea and it is not hard to see. For an alcoholic the

most important thing is a very self-centered concern. It is alcohol

and more of it. Yet I think it is unfair though for some people who

know me to call me a control freak because I don't hesitate to speak

my mind.

>

> >So I guess I am par for the course.

> >Besides I reckoned that I would called a troll when I joined this

> >list

>

> Anyone who defends AA on this list is called a troll, so you

should

> be relieved to hear that you are not " terminally unique. "

>

> >but I am not going to stand by without having something to say.

>

> And I and others here will not stand by without challenging you

> on your defense of AA.

Then we should be in for some fun.

>

> >> >How can you be justified in teaching

> >> >people all these lies about AA. You are going to send people to

> >their

> >> >deaths with this page.

> >>

> >> There you are, go ahead. Please. Call your local police. Call

the

> >> FBI. This list is killing people. Have them stop us. The lives

of

> >your

> >> fellow alcoholics depends on it.

> >> Don't hesitate, do it NOW!

> >

> >

> >Dont be ridiculous. Okay, so maybe it is a little drammatic to say

> >that you are killing people with this list

>

> So maybe you're the one being ridiculous.

Nope. Don't think so. I will admit to drama, but not comedy as you

have attempted above.

>

> >with new neighbors. And AA is proven to help people

>

> How is it proven? Where is it proven?

It is proven in my life and the lives of many people I know. There

are over two million AA members in this country. That has to speak

for something. Consider if you will all the years of AA history. How

many millions of people do you think AA has helped to sobriety

through the years. It is a good thing. It completely changed the way

the world treated alcoholics.

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

[big Book, p. 570]

[Guest guest]

> Kay T. reminds me of the director in the Truman show when he tries

to kill Truman in the boat with huge fans buckets of water and a wave

machine. Just maybe Kay T. can see through her madness.

>

> DT

Verily, in the Truman Show it was the rest of the world that had the

delusions. Those delusions led to the contemptuous torture and

societal oppression of Truman. Maybe I am like Truman in the

microcosmic society of this group. I wonder how long I will beat my

head against the edge of the sky.

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

[big Book, p. 570]

[Guest guest]

> Kay T. reminds me of the director in the Truman show when he tries

to kill Truman in the boat with huge fans buckets of water and a wave

machine. Just maybe Kay T. can see through her madness.

>

> DT

Verily, in the Truman Show it was the rest of the world that had the

delusions. Those delusions led to the contemptuous torture and

societal oppression of Truman. Maybe I am like Truman in the

microcosmic society of this group. I wonder how long I will beat my

head against the edge of the sky.

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

[big Book, p. 570]

[Guest guest]

> Kay T. reminds me of the director in the Truman show when he tries

to kill Truman in the boat with huge fans buckets of water and a wave

machine. Just maybe Kay T. can see through her madness.

>

> DT

Verily, in the Truman Show it was the rest of the world that had the

delusions. Those delusions led to the contemptuous torture and

societal oppression of Truman. Maybe I am like Truman in the

microcosmic society of this group. I wonder how long I will beat my

head against the edge of the sky.

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

[big Book, p. 570]

[Guest guest]

> " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

> is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

in

> everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to

> investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

> [big Book, p. 570]

Hi, Kay T.

Thanks for reminding us of the wisdom contained in the above quote.

If you look around here, you will find the reasoned opinions of many

honest men and women who spent years in AA and/or its offshoots.

They came, they saw, they investigated - and they felt contempt.

And they talk about it here.

Welcome aboard. And thanks for the topics - with any luck, you'll

keep us too busy for us to drink for a while.

Regards,

Tom

[Guest guest]

> " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

> is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

in

> everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to

> investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

> [big Book, p. 570]

Hi, Kay T.

Thanks for reminding us of the wisdom contained in the above quote.

If you look around here, you will find the reasoned opinions of many

honest men and women who spent years in AA and/or its offshoots.

They came, they saw, they investigated - and they felt contempt.

And they talk about it here.

Welcome aboard. And thanks for the topics - with any luck, you'll

keep us too busy for us to drink for a while.

Regards,

Tom

[Guest guest]

> " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

> is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

in

> everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to

> investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

> [big Book, p. 570]

Hi, Kay T.

Thanks for reminding us of the wisdom contained in the above quote.

If you look around here, you will find the reasoned opinions of many

honest men and women who spent years in AA and/or its offshoots.

They came, they saw, they investigated - and they felt contempt.

And they talk about it here.

Welcome aboard. And thanks for the topics - with any luck, you'll

keep us too busy for us to drink for a while.

Regards,

Tom

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Dont be ridiculous. Okay, so maybe it is a little drammatic to say

> that you are killing people with this list but if this list

> encourages people who have had previous drinking problems to go out

> and drink then it is encouraging very dangerous bechavior which

could

> put peoples lives at risk. I think that is poor advice for someone

> with a history of drinking problems who is drinking just to fit in

> with new neighbors. And AA is proven to help people so why gather

> here to blast aa. I just think it is wreckless.

>

Kay,

It was suggested i get a sponsor,

" read the big book,

" find god,

" know and do this gods will,

" do what i'm told,

" this list could go on and on.....

then told if i wasn't willing to do these 'suggestions'

better go back out (use till the shit beats the crap out

of ya) then you'll be more then grateful to do what we

suggest. Some of my family and friends did not make it

back to carry on with those suggestions, which by the way

never cease to stop....if you are in AA and following

your sponsors directions....you should know this.

Telling someone they are going to die if they drink again,

then tell them to go back out, to manipulate them into

following the program....is malicious and cruel.

AA kills!

netty

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Dont be ridiculous. Okay, so maybe it is a little drammatic to say

> that you are killing people with this list but if this list

> encourages people who have had previous drinking problems to go out

> and drink then it is encouraging very dangerous bechavior which

could

> put peoples lives at risk. I think that is poor advice for someone

> with a history of drinking problems who is drinking just to fit in

> with new neighbors. And AA is proven to help people so why gather

> here to blast aa. I just think it is wreckless.

>

Kay,

It was suggested i get a sponsor,

" read the big book,

" find god,

" know and do this gods will,

" do what i'm told,

" this list could go on and on.....

then told if i wasn't willing to do these 'suggestions'

better go back out (use till the shit beats the crap out

of ya) then you'll be more then grateful to do what we

suggest. Some of my family and friends did not make it

back to carry on with those suggestions, which by the way

never cease to stop....if you are in AA and following

your sponsors directions....you should know this.

Telling someone they are going to die if they drink again,

then tell them to go back out, to manipulate them into

following the program....is malicious and cruel.

AA kills!

netty

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Dont be ridiculous. Okay, so maybe it is a little drammatic to say

> that you are killing people with this list but if this list

> encourages people who have had previous drinking problems to go out

> and drink then it is encouraging very dangerous bechavior which

could

> put peoples lives at risk. I think that is poor advice for someone

> with a history of drinking problems who is drinking just to fit in

> with new neighbors. And AA is proven to help people so why gather

> here to blast aa. I just think it is wreckless.

>

Kay,

It was suggested i get a sponsor,

" read the big book,

" find god,

" know and do this gods will,

" do what i'm told,

" this list could go on and on.....

then told if i wasn't willing to do these 'suggestions'

better go back out (use till the shit beats the crap out

of ya) then you'll be more then grateful to do what we

suggest. Some of my family and friends did not make it

back to carry on with those suggestions, which by the way

never cease to stop....if you are in AA and following

your sponsors directions....you should know this.

Telling someone they are going to die if they drink again,

then tell them to go back out, to manipulate them into

following the program....is malicious and cruel.

AA kills!

netty

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 11/1/01 12:38:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> kahn_troll@y... writes:

>

>

> > As for moderate drinking,

> > > it might be the lesser of two evils if someone is so put off by

the

> > philosophy

> > > if you will of the 12-steps and chooses to take their own life

> > because they

> > > are not " constitutionally capable. "

> >

> > What the hell are you saying here? You are saying in effect that

> > people who are not willing to make a change of mind and lifestyle

for

> > some 'philosophical' differences would be better off committing

> > suicide!!!

> >

> >

>

> I have to clarify this. I am not saying that suicide is better

than going to

> AA, I'm saying that moderate drinking is better than suicide,

wouldn't you

> agree?

That may be what you are saying now, but it was not at all what you

said before. I am not going to agree with this if it means negating

my previous point. I won't be lead into that sort of verbal trap. I

am not opposed to drinking. Nor is AA. It is not safe for ALCOHOLICS

to try to drink moderately if their experience has shown through

prior attempts especially that they just cant' do it or that

invariably it causes them trouble.

Back to your most recent question though. As best I can reckon your

are equating AA to suicide. How do you equate AA with suicide? But

for alcoholics your question is like asking, 'which would you

prefer...a kick to the groin or a punch in the throat'.

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

[big Book, p. 570]

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 11/1/01 12:38:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> kahn_troll@y... writes:

>

>

> > As for moderate drinking,

> > > it might be the lesser of two evils if someone is so put off by

the

> > philosophy

> > > if you will of the 12-steps and chooses to take their own life

> > because they

> > > are not " constitutionally capable. "

> >

> > What the hell are you saying here? You are saying in effect that

> > people who are not willing to make a change of mind and lifestyle

for

> > some 'philosophical' differences would be better off committing

> > suicide!!!

> >

> >

>

> I have to clarify this. I am not saying that suicide is better

than going to

> AA, I'm saying that moderate drinking is better than suicide,

wouldn't you

> agree?

That may be what you are saying now, but it was not at all what you

said before. I am not going to agree with this if it means negating

my previous point. I won't be lead into that sort of verbal trap. I

am not opposed to drinking. Nor is AA. It is not safe for ALCOHOLICS

to try to drink moderately if their experience has shown through

prior attempts especially that they just cant' do it or that

invariably it causes them trouble.

Back to your most recent question though. As best I can reckon your

are equating AA to suicide. How do you equate AA with suicide? But

for alcoholics your question is like asking, 'which would you

prefer...a kick to the groin or a punch in the throat'.

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

[big Book, p. 570]

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 11/1/01 12:38:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> kahn_troll@y... writes:

>

>

> > As for moderate drinking,

> > > it might be the lesser of two evils if someone is so put off by

the

> > philosophy

> > > if you will of the 12-steps and chooses to take their own life

> > because they

> > > are not " constitutionally capable. "

> >

> > What the hell are you saying here? You are saying in effect that

> > people who are not willing to make a change of mind and lifestyle

for

> > some 'philosophical' differences would be better off committing

> > suicide!!!

> >

> >

>

> I have to clarify this. I am not saying that suicide is better

than going to

> AA, I'm saying that moderate drinking is better than suicide,

wouldn't you

> agree?

That may be what you are saying now, but it was not at all what you

said before. I am not going to agree with this if it means negating

my previous point. I won't be lead into that sort of verbal trap. I

am not opposed to drinking. Nor is AA. It is not safe for ALCOHOLICS

to try to drink moderately if their experience has shown through

prior attempts especially that they just cant' do it or that

invariably it causes them trouble.

Back to your most recent question though. As best I can reckon your

are equating AA to suicide. How do you equate AA with suicide? But

for alcoholics your question is like asking, 'which would you

prefer...a kick to the groin or a punch in the throat'.

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

[big Book, p. 570]

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 11/1/01 12:38:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> kahn_troll@y... writes:

>

>

> > Nothing. What's

> > > wrong with people objecting to it? Really, nothing. If

someone

> > thinks that

> > > AA is not for him or her, that's okay, too, right?

> >

> > You know what. You are probably right but they always come crying

> > back to meetings when they fall. AA is proven to help alcoholics.

The

> > denial and resistence to treatment of alcoholics is unbelievable.

> >

> >

>

> Kay, do you resent the people who have fallen off the wagon and

come to your

> meetings crying about it when you are maintaining perfect sobriety?

No, but I do regard it all as folly. I have seen it time and time

againg that people leave AA at first and soon they are coming back in

a miserable heap. I guess they have to take their own blows to learn.

As for people who fall off the wagon. I prefer not to use that saying

by the way. I have compassion for them. I will be the first to admit

that I have an edge, but I treat these people respectfully and

welcome them back.

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

[big Book, p. 570]

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 11/1/01 12:38:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> kahn_troll@y... writes:

>

>

> > Nothing. What's

> > > wrong with people objecting to it? Really, nothing. If

someone

> > thinks that

> > > AA is not for him or her, that's okay, too, right?

> >

> > You know what. You are probably right but they always come crying

> > back to meetings when they fall. AA is proven to help alcoholics.

The

> > denial and resistence to treatment of alcoholics is unbelievable.

> >

> >

>

> Kay, do you resent the people who have fallen off the wagon and

come to your

> meetings crying about it when you are maintaining perfect sobriety?

No, but I do regard it all as folly. I have seen it time and time

againg that people leave AA at first and soon they are coming back in

a miserable heap. I guess they have to take their own blows to learn.

As for people who fall off the wagon. I prefer not to use that saying

by the way. I have compassion for them. I will be the first to admit

that I have an edge, but I treat these people respectfully and

welcome them back.

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

[big Book, p. 570]

[Guest guest]

> Could you please direct me to the AA statistical records that say

that

> there are over two million AA members in this country. Also could

you

> please tell me what constitutes an AA member? How much sobriety

does an AA

> member have to be included in this statistical report?

>

> Thank you

>

> Tom Boy

My mistake,there are two million aa members in the entire world. here

is the AA website where you can read some statistics on a couple

pages.......

http://www.aa.org/english/E_FactFile/M-24_d4.html

http://www.aa.org/english/E_FactFile/P-48_d1.html

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

[big Book, p. 570]

[Guest guest]

> Could you please direct me to the AA statistical records that say

that

> there are over two million AA members in this country. Also could

you

> please tell me what constitutes an AA member? How much sobriety

does an AA

> member have to be included in this statistical report?

>

> Thank you

>

> Tom Boy

My mistake,there are two million aa members in the entire world. here

is the AA website where you can read some statistics on a couple

pages.......

http://www.aa.org/english/E_FactFile/M-24_d4.html

http://www.aa.org/english/E_FactFile/P-48_d1.html

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

[big Book, p. 570]

[Guest guest]

At 07:09 AM 01/11/01 +0000, kahn_troll@... wrote:

No, the internet is anybody's home.

If this is a private list then I

will be kicked off soon enough I am sure. Yes, I am going to have

some strong points to make here and I probably should not expect to

be welcomed.

I am not referring to the Internet, I am referring to this list. This is

our home, our community. You are more than welcome to be here (in my

opinion).

The biggest problem and danger for you here is that the longer you stay

here the greater the chance that you will start to think. Once you start

to think , all hell will break loose.

I am only speaking from experience. In AA from 1976 until 2001, have been

out for two months. I was on an email list where someone *dared* to

criticise AA and I was simply livid. I do like to learn though , so I

started to investigate these views and was absolutely amazed at what I

was reading and hearing. The more I read the more disillusioned about AA

I became. So , I will warn you that although you are welcome on this

list, the longer you are here the more there is a possibility that you

will leave AA.

AA does not " tell people that

they will die if they drink " .

Page 24 - ...When this sort of thining is fully established in an

individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself

beyond human aid and unless locked up, may die or go permanently insane.

These ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of Alcoholics throughout

history.

Page 30 - The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his

drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The

persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many persue it into the

gates of insanity or death.

Page 33 Every attempt failed. Though a robust man at retirement, he went

to pieces quickly and was dead within four years. This case contains a

powerful lesson

Page 44 To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a

spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.

Page 44 But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a

spiritual basis of life - or else.

AA does

warn that historically the desiny of alcoholics who cannot stop

drinking has been institutions, prison, or death. Are you disputing

this?

Yes, absolutely.

It warns that if you are an

alcoholic, then this is what you

have to look forward to if you are going to continue.

Based on what evidence is this statement made?

This is

perfectly realistic scenario for real alcoholics. If you got this

message in AA but are not an alcoholic, then you need not be

concerned with this warning. That would be called using your brain.

You are not encouraged to use your brain in AA. You are not encouraged to

think. " Your best thinking got you here " .

Also, isn't everyone who goes to AA , alcoholic? " You don't get here

by accident "

Also, isn't denial a sign of alcoholism? So even if you didn't think you

were an alcoholic when you went into AA, you would be told that you were

only fooling yourself if you didn't think you were an alcoholic? So

wouldn't you still be afraid that if you drank you would die?

But its true that people with

alcohol problems who don't get help

generally drink again.

No , its not true.

AA is the only free widely

available help for

such people and it disturbs me that there is such a potent disdain

for AA out there.

No it isn't:

Rational Recovery

Smart

Women for sobriety

S.O.S.

and many more. You just don't hear about them in AA

I don't understand how you

see this as dangerous. I

see it as sensible advice. Go to AA. It might save your life.

It is dangerous because AA is a fear based program. It isn't healthy for

anyone to live a fear based life. The more you come from a self empowered

position the healthier you are.

Telling people that if they drink they will die and then telling them to

go ahead and drink if they don't think they are alcoholic is tragic,

dangerous, irresponsible and should be punishable to the fullest extent

of the law. There is nothing sensible about the " advice " given

in AA.

>

Mr. X has a drinking problem.

Okay but can we go on a first name basis here ? can we just call him

" X "

A

serious one.

Uh oh

It causes problems and

interferes with his life for two

decades.

20 years , wow! how did it interfere with his life? could you expand

please?

He has many attempts at

quitting.

What methods did he use to quit?

Finally he quits with the

help of AA.

okay

He rebuilds his life. Fifteen years

pass. His history has

demonstrated that he loves the effect of alcohol and when he drinks

he over does it and suffers as a result. Then one day he gets the

idea that he might like to drink just to be normal for once and hang

out with the boys again.

See, this is a problem. He is told in AA that he isn't normal. When in

reality he is normal, he is just like everyone else on the planet. Same

problems, same conditions. Nothing greater, nothing less.

His AA attndence

falters.

Why is it wrong not to go to meetings?

He expresses this

desire to me, a life long friend, not an AA member, just an old

friend. And I say, Gee friend, deal with it, get over it, move on. Go

ahead and drink. Just because this was a devastating problem for

years doesn't mean you will repeat it. Go ahead and enjoy

yourself...Now what sort of friend in good conscious could give that

advice?

A friend that realised that his friend had free will. That he respected

his friend and trusted his friends decisions. That the friendship was

equal. That he had no statistical evidence that his friend couldn't

drink. I expect that all my friends honour my decisions, I expect that

they have confidence in my decisions. I expect that they know that I am a

competent healthy woman who is very capable of making rational good

decisions. I am not defective, I am woman hear me roar.

What sort of intelligent

considerate mind could utter such

tripe?

One that respects another persons right to make decisions.

I get it. It would be someone

with a chip on their shoulder

about some anecdotal bummer experience in AA.

I have had no " bummer " experience in AA. I just have different

information today and I am thinking for the first time in 25

years.

The above was a real event

not

involving me directly but people I know well. Mr. X drank and drove

his fucking car over a median killing four people in an oncoming

car.

There is this nasty thing called " Self fulfilling prophecies " ,

what happens is this...you tell someone that something is going to happen

if they do something. You repeatedly tell them that this is going to

happen, oh lets say " if you drink, you will die " " If you

stop going to AA you will drink " " If you start drinking again

the disease won't have stopped, it will only have gotten worse, so when

you drink this time all hell will break loose " . Now if you

repeatedly tell vulnerable people this (ie when they first stop drinking)

and repeatedly tell them this over and over again via meeting after

meeting, they will have happen what is called " brainwashing " ,

they will believe this to be the truth. So...if they do the deed and go

back out drinking , all hell will break loose because you got it

" self fulfilling prophecy " goes into effect! clear as

mud?

In my life and in the lives of many

other aa members. There are

millions of AA members and millions more through time who have

benefited.

You still haven't provided me with any statistical evidence to support

your statement. You haven't done this because the information simply

isn't available. You know it and I know it. So let it go as they say in

AA

I guess I can't argue with the fact

that there are not any studies to

show AA works.

Good, one step forward! there is hope.

But then provided me with

some of these studies that have shown that many people who quit on

there own.

There aren't studies (that I know of) for people who have quit on their

own. I do know that only 3% seek out AA and the other 97% just get on

with their lives, so it is really difficult to get statistical studies

out of that group.

Where can I read about these

so called studies.

Start searching out in Google or any other search engine.

Read as much as you can. The more informed you are the better you will be

able to have rational discussions with us , instead of just pointing

fingers and thinking we are awful evil people.

An interesting thought here, for someone who finds us so disgusting ,it

is interesting that you are hanging around here. Shouldn't you be reading

the big book, praying, going to a meeting, talking to your sponsor, doing

the steps, setting up for a meeting, sponsoring someone or doing

something more constructive than arguing with a bunch of yahoos?

Just curious.

No. I have investigated. I have

attended AA for many years and seen

much. I sense much contempt and bias here for things religious or

spiritual. I sense much contempt for AA without much real knowledge

or fair mindedness. I sense that a lot of people here have probably

left AA without givning a fair shake.

I personally think that 25 years of AA is a fair shake. Don't

you?

kisses

Tom boy

[Guest guest]

At 07:09 AM 01/11/01 +0000, kahn_troll@... wrote:

No, the internet is anybody's home.

If this is a private list then I

will be kicked off soon enough I am sure. Yes, I am going to have

some strong points to make here and I probably should not expect to

be welcomed.

I am not referring to the Internet, I am referring to this list. This is

our home, our community. You are more than welcome to be here (in my

opinion).

The biggest problem and danger for you here is that the longer you stay

here the greater the chance that you will start to think. Once you start

to think , all hell will break loose.

I am only speaking from experience. In AA from 1976 until 2001, have been

out for two months. I was on an email list where someone *dared* to

criticise AA and I was simply livid. I do like to learn though , so I

started to investigate these views and was absolutely amazed at what I

was reading and hearing. The more I read the more disillusioned about AA

I became. So , I will warn you that although you are welcome on this

list, the longer you are here the more there is a possibility that you

will leave AA.

AA does not " tell people that

they will die if they drink " .

Page 24 - ...When this sort of thining is fully established in an

individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself

beyond human aid and unless locked up, may die or go permanently insane.

These ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of Alcoholics throughout

history.

Page 30 - The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his

drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The

persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many persue it into the

gates of insanity or death.

Page 33 Every attempt failed. Though a robust man at retirement, he went

to pieces quickly and was dead within four years. This case contains a

powerful lesson

Page 44 To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a

spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.

Page 44 But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a

spiritual basis of life - or else.

AA does

warn that historically the desiny of alcoholics who cannot stop

drinking has been institutions, prison, or death. Are you disputing

this?

Yes, absolutely.

It warns that if you are an

alcoholic, then this is what you

have to look forward to if you are going to continue.

Based on what evidence is this statement made?

This is

perfectly realistic scenario for real alcoholics. If you got this

message in AA but are not an alcoholic, then you need not be

concerned with this warning. That would be called using your brain.

You are not encouraged to use your brain in AA. You are not encouraged to

think. " Your best thinking got you here " .

Also, isn't everyone who goes to AA , alcoholic? " You don't get here

by accident "

Also, isn't denial a sign of alcoholism? So even if you didn't think you

were an alcoholic when you went into AA, you would be told that you were

only fooling yourself if you didn't think you were an alcoholic? So

wouldn't you still be afraid that if you drank you would die?

But its true that people with

alcohol problems who don't get help

generally drink again.

No , its not true.

AA is the only free widely

available help for

such people and it disturbs me that there is such a potent disdain

for AA out there.

No it isn't:

Rational Recovery

Smart

Women for sobriety

S.O.S.

and many more. You just don't hear about them in AA

I don't understand how you

see this as dangerous. I

see it as sensible advice. Go to AA. It might save your life.

It is dangerous because AA is a fear based program. It isn't healthy for

anyone to live a fear based life. The more you come from a self empowered

position the healthier you are.

Telling people that if they drink they will die and then telling them to

go ahead and drink if they don't think they are alcoholic is tragic,

dangerous, irresponsible and should be punishable to the fullest extent

of the law. There is nothing sensible about the " advice " given

in AA.

>

Mr. X has a drinking problem.

Okay but can we go on a first name basis here ? can we just call him

" X "

A

serious one.

Uh oh

It causes problems and

interferes with his life for two

decades.

20 years , wow! how did it interfere with his life? could you expand

please?

He has many attempts at

quitting.

What methods did he use to quit?

Finally he quits with the

help of AA.

okay

He rebuilds his life. Fifteen years

pass. His history has

demonstrated that he loves the effect of alcohol and when he drinks

he over does it and suffers as a result. Then one day he gets the

idea that he might like to drink just to be normal for once and hang

out with the boys again.

See, this is a problem. He is told in AA that he isn't normal. When in

reality he is normal, he is just like everyone else on the planet. Same

problems, same conditions. Nothing greater, nothing less.

His AA attndence

falters.

Why is it wrong not to go to meetings?

He expresses this

desire to me, a life long friend, not an AA member, just an old

friend. And I say, Gee friend, deal with it, get over it, move on. Go

ahead and drink. Just because this was a devastating problem for

years doesn't mean you will repeat it. Go ahead and enjoy

yourself...Now what sort of friend in good conscious could give that

advice?

A friend that realised that his friend had free will. That he respected

his friend and trusted his friends decisions. That the friendship was

equal. That he had no statistical evidence that his friend couldn't

drink. I expect that all my friends honour my decisions, I expect that

they have confidence in my decisions. I expect that they know that I am a

competent healthy woman who is very capable of making rational good

decisions. I am not defective, I am woman hear me roar.

What sort of intelligent

considerate mind could utter such

tripe?

One that respects another persons right to make decisions.

I get it. It would be someone

with a chip on their shoulder

about some anecdotal bummer experience in AA.

I have had no " bummer " experience in AA. I just have different

information today and I am thinking for the first time in 25

years.

The above was a real event

not

involving me directly but people I know well. Mr. X drank and drove

his fucking car over a median killing four people in an oncoming

car.

There is this nasty thing called " Self fulfilling prophecies " ,

what happens is this...you tell someone that something is going to happen

if they do something. You repeatedly tell them that this is going to

happen, oh lets say " if you drink, you will die " " If you

stop going to AA you will drink " " If you start drinking again

the disease won't have stopped, it will only have gotten worse, so when

you drink this time all hell will break loose " . Now if you

repeatedly tell vulnerable people this (ie when they first stop drinking)

and repeatedly tell them this over and over again via meeting after

meeting, they will have happen what is called " brainwashing " ,

they will believe this to be the truth. So...if they do the deed and go

back out drinking , all hell will break loose because you got it

" self fulfilling prophecy " goes into effect! clear as

mud?

In my life and in the lives of many

other aa members. There are

millions of AA members and millions more through time who have

benefited.

You still haven't provided me with any statistical evidence to support

your statement. You haven't done this because the information simply

isn't available. You know it and I know it. So let it go as they say in

AA

I guess I can't argue with the fact

that there are not any studies to

show AA works.

Good, one step forward! there is hope.

But then provided me with

some of these studies that have shown that many people who quit on

there own.

There aren't studies (that I know of) for people who have quit on their

own. I do know that only 3% seek out AA and the other 97% just get on

with their lives, so it is really difficult to get statistical studies

out of that group.

Where can I read about these

so called studies.

Start searching out in Google or any other search engine.

Read as much as you can. The more informed you are the better you will be

able to have rational discussions with us , instead of just pointing

fingers and thinking we are awful evil people.

An interesting thought here, for someone who finds us so disgusting ,it

is interesting that you are hanging around here. Shouldn't you be reading

the big book, praying, going to a meeting, talking to your sponsor, doing

the steps, setting up for a meeting, sponsoring someone or doing

something more constructive than arguing with a bunch of yahoos?

Just curious.

No. I have investigated. I have

attended AA for many years and seen

much. I sense much contempt and bias here for things religious or

spiritual. I sense much contempt for AA without much real knowledge

or fair mindedness. I sense that a lot of people here have probably

left AA without givning a fair shake.

I personally think that 25 years of AA is a fair shake. Don't

you?

kisses

Tom boy

[Guest guest]

At 07:09 AM 01/11/01 +0000, kahn_troll@... wrote:

No, the internet is anybody's home.

If this is a private list then I

will be kicked off soon enough I am sure. Yes, I am going to have

some strong points to make here and I probably should not expect to

be welcomed.

I am not referring to the Internet, I am referring to this list. This is

our home, our community. You are more than welcome to be here (in my

opinion).

The biggest problem and danger for you here is that the longer you stay

here the greater the chance that you will start to think. Once you start

to think , all hell will break loose.

I am only speaking from experience. In AA from 1976 until 2001, have been

out for two months. I was on an email list where someone *dared* to

criticise AA and I was simply livid. I do like to learn though , so I

started to investigate these views and was absolutely amazed at what I

was reading and hearing. The more I read the more disillusioned about AA

I became. So , I will warn you that although you are welcome on this

list, the longer you are here the more there is a possibility that you

will leave AA.

AA does not " tell people that

they will die if they drink " .

Page 24 - ...When this sort of thining is fully established in an

individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself

beyond human aid and unless locked up, may die or go permanently insane.

These ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of Alcoholics throughout

history.

Page 30 - The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his

drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The

persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many persue it into the

gates of insanity or death.

Page 33 Every attempt failed. Though a robust man at retirement, he went

to pieces quickly and was dead within four years. This case contains a

powerful lesson

Page 44 To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a

spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.

Page 44 But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a

spiritual basis of life - or else.

AA does

warn that historically the desiny of alcoholics who cannot stop

drinking has been institutions, prison, or death. Are you disputing

this?

Yes, absolutely.

It warns that if you are an

alcoholic, then this is what you

have to look forward to if you are going to continue.

Based on what evidence is this statement made?

This is

perfectly realistic scenario for real alcoholics. If you got this

message in AA but are not an alcoholic, then you need not be

concerned with this warning. That would be called using your brain.

You are not encouraged to use your brain in AA. You are not encouraged to

think. " Your best thinking got you here " .

Also, isn't everyone who goes to AA , alcoholic? " You don't get here

by accident "

Also, isn't denial a sign of alcoholism? So even if you didn't think you

were an alcoholic when you went into AA, you would be told that you were

only fooling yourself if you didn't think you were an alcoholic? So

wouldn't you still be afraid that if you drank you would die?

But its true that people with

alcohol problems who don't get help

generally drink again.

No , its not true.

AA is the only free widely

available help for

such people and it disturbs me that there is such a potent disdain

for AA out there.

No it isn't:

Rational Recovery

Smart

Women for sobriety

S.O.S.

and many more. You just don't hear about them in AA

I don't understand how you

see this as dangerous. I

see it as sensible advice. Go to AA. It might save your life.

It is dangerous because AA is a fear based program. It isn't healthy for

anyone to live a fear based life. The more you come from a self empowered

position the healthier you are.

Telling people that if they drink they will die and then telling them to

go ahead and drink if they don't think they are alcoholic is tragic,

dangerous, irresponsible and should be punishable to the fullest extent

of the law. There is nothing sensible about the " advice " given

in AA.

>

Mr. X has a drinking problem.

Okay but can we go on a first name basis here ? can we just call him

" X "

A

serious one.

Uh oh

It causes problems and

interferes with his life for two

decades.

20 years , wow! how did it interfere with his life? could you expand

please?

He has many attempts at

quitting.

What methods did he use to quit?

Finally he quits with the

help of AA.

okay

He rebuilds his life. Fifteen years

pass. His history has

demonstrated that he loves the effect of alcohol and when he drinks

he over does it and suffers as a result. Then one day he gets the

idea that he might like to drink just to be normal for once and hang

out with the boys again.

See, this is a problem. He is told in AA that he isn't normal. When in

reality he is normal, he is just like everyone else on the planet. Same

problems, same conditions. Nothing greater, nothing less.

His AA attndence

falters.

Why is it wrong not to go to meetings?

He expresses this

desire to me, a life long friend, not an AA member, just an old

friend. And I say, Gee friend, deal with it, get over it, move on. Go

ahead and drink. Just because this was a devastating problem for

years doesn't mean you will repeat it. Go ahead and enjoy

yourself...Now what sort of friend in good conscious could give that

advice?

A friend that realised that his friend had free will. That he respected

his friend and trusted his friends decisions. That the friendship was

equal. That he had no statistical evidence that his friend couldn't

drink. I expect that all my friends honour my decisions, I expect that

they have confidence in my decisions. I expect that they know that I am a

competent healthy woman who is very capable of making rational good

decisions. I am not defective, I am woman hear me roar.

What sort of intelligent

considerate mind could utter such

tripe?

One that respects another persons right to make decisions.

I get it. It would be someone

with a chip on their shoulder

about some anecdotal bummer experience in AA.

I have had no " bummer " experience in AA. I just have different

information today and I am thinking for the first time in 25

years.

The above was a real event

not

involving me directly but people I know well. Mr. X drank and drove

his fucking car over a median killing four people in an oncoming

car.

There is this nasty thing called " Self fulfilling prophecies " ,

what happens is this...you tell someone that something is going to happen

if they do something. You repeatedly tell them that this is going to

happen, oh lets say " if you drink, you will die " " If you

stop going to AA you will drink " " If you start drinking again

the disease won't have stopped, it will only have gotten worse, so when

you drink this time all hell will break loose " . Now if you

repeatedly tell vulnerable people this (ie when they first stop drinking)

and repeatedly tell them this over and over again via meeting after

meeting, they will have happen what is called " brainwashing " ,

they will believe this to be the truth. So...if they do the deed and go

back out drinking , all hell will break loose because you got it

" self fulfilling prophecy " goes into effect! clear as

mud?

In my life and in the lives of many

other aa members. There are

millions of AA members and millions more through time who have

benefited.

You still haven't provided me with any statistical evidence to support

your statement. You haven't done this because the information simply

isn't available. You know it and I know it. So let it go as they say in

AA

I guess I can't argue with the fact

that there are not any studies to

show AA works.

Good, one step forward! there is hope.

But then provided me with

some of these studies that have shown that many people who quit on

there own.

There aren't studies (that I know of) for people who have quit on their

own. I do know that only 3% seek out AA and the other 97% just get on

with their lives, so it is really difficult to get statistical studies

out of that group.

Where can I read about these

so called studies.

Start searching out in Google or any other search engine.

Read as much as you can. The more informed you are the better you will be

able to have rational discussions with us , instead of just pointing

fingers and thinking we are awful evil people.

An interesting thought here, for someone who finds us so disgusting ,it

is interesting that you are hanging around here. Shouldn't you be reading

the big book, praying, going to a meeting, talking to your sponsor, doing

the steps, setting up for a meeting, sponsoring someone or doing

something more constructive than arguing with a bunch of yahoos?

Just curious.

No. I have investigated. I have

attended AA for many years and seen

much. I sense much contempt and bias here for things religious or

spiritual. I sense much contempt for AA without much real knowledge

or fair mindedness. I sense that a lot of people here have probably

left AA without givning a fair shake.

I personally think that 25 years of AA is a fair shake. Don't

you?

kisses

Tom boy

[Guest guest]

" Moral and spiritual motivations "

We control our " moral and spiritual " motivations. We, as a race pf human

beings have grown to a point where we can decide, from instant to instant,

what is right and or wrong. On occasion, we can be wrong. We can be wrong

many times in a row, and eventually learn what we did wrong and why we did

it. The focus here is that there is no possible way a fully developed human

being has to focus there entire energy on reforming. Our society would not

be where it is today. We can choose not to drink or use, we can choose to

drink or use in smaller amounts, we can choose to drink or use in great

amounts. But either way, we chose what we did. By vilifying an inanimate

objec t, all we have succeeded in doing is passing the blame from ourselves

onto something that can not fight back. If AA and the like teaches free

will and personal responsibility, than why is it so hard for you guys to

think about addiction as simply a choice, not a magical disease. Why is it

almost impossible to imagine that a person can change completely and never

choose to make those mistakes again? Thats right, a completely recvered

(not in recovery) alcoholic or addict. Why can you not also understand, or

imagine, that AA and the like can not possibly work for everyone, and that

everyone does not need you, because as human beings we all are different,

and made to think differently about everything. With out this we will never

grow. How could ONE program or way of handling a thought, be suitable for

everyone? Why is it that aty every meeting a person who has tried to " take

what they want and leave the rest " are hassled into believing that hey could

not possibly be doing any good because they are not following the ideas to a

tee? If it is a disease, how is it that in 60 odd years every disease,

including the diabetes, has undergone a changing of understanding, and a

revamping of treatment? The only change the Big Book and AA have gone

through, is a couple more stories being added to flavor the steak? Why is

it that researchers, such as Vailant, who back AA %110 can not find

any credible evidence that AA works? Why is it that AA always blames the

individual that it did not work for, instead of maybe trying to change

itself? Why is every other way but your way the " lazy and impatient " way?

>From: kahn_troll@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Nuts!

>Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 07:40:51 -0000

>

>

> > In a message dated 11/1/01 12:38:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> > kahn_troll@y... writes:

> >

> >

> > > ...oh yes it does. Why would someone in their right mind who has

>had

> > > a history of abusive or alcoholic drinking start drinking again?

>AA

> > > has some very apt explanations for this. It is because of a

>spiritual

> > > dilemna. It is a form of insanity. There is an implicit lack of

>self-

> > > respect in this action. What less is this than a moral and a

> > > spiritual problem?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > It's neither moral nor spiritual. It is a physical action.

>

>

>There are many billions of physical actions which have moral and

>spiritual motivations and consequences. Alcoholic drinking is one

>such physical action. There is no escaping this.

>

>But for the grace of God,

>Kay T.

>

> " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

>is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

>(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

>prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

>[big Book, p. 570]

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

" Moral and spiritual motivations "

We control our " moral and spiritual " motivations. We, as a race pf human

beings have grown to a point where we can decide, from instant to instant,

what is right and or wrong. On occasion, we can be wrong. We can be wrong

many times in a row, and eventually learn what we did wrong and why we did

it. The focus here is that there is no possible way a fully developed human

being has to focus there entire energy on reforming. Our society would not

be where it is today. We can choose not to drink or use, we can choose to

drink or use in smaller amounts, we can choose to drink or use in great

amounts. But either way, we chose what we did. By vilifying an inanimate

objec t, all we have succeeded in doing is passing the blame from ourselves

onto something that can not fight back. If AA and the like teaches free

will and personal responsibility, than why is it so hard for you guys to

think about addiction as simply a choice, not a magical disease. Why is it

almost impossible to imagine that a person can change completely and never

choose to make those mistakes again? Thats right, a completely recvered

(not in recovery) alcoholic or addict. Why can you not also understand, or

imagine, that AA and the like can not possibly work for everyone, and that

everyone does not need you, because as human beings we all are different,

and made to think differently about everything. With out this we will never

grow. How could ONE program or way of handling a thought, be suitable for

everyone? Why is it that aty every meeting a person who has tried to " take

what they want and leave the rest " are hassled into believing that hey could

not possibly be doing any good because they are not following the ideas to a

tee? If it is a disease, how is it that in 60 odd years every disease,

including the diabetes, has undergone a changing of understanding, and a

revamping of treatment? The only change the Big Book and AA have gone

through, is a couple more stories being added to flavor the steak? Why is

it that researchers, such as Vailant, who back AA %110 can not find

any credible evidence that AA works? Why is it that AA always blames the

individual that it did not work for, instead of maybe trying to change

itself? Why is every other way but your way the " lazy and impatient " way?

>From: kahn_troll@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Nuts!

>Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 07:40:51 -0000

>

>

> > In a message dated 11/1/01 12:38:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> > kahn_troll@y... writes:

> >

> >

> > > ...oh yes it does. Why would someone in their right mind who has

>had

> > > a history of abusive or alcoholic drinking start drinking again?

>AA

> > > has some very apt explanations for this. It is because of a

>spiritual

> > > dilemna. It is a form of insanity. There is an implicit lack of

>self-

> > > respect in this action. What less is this than a moral and a

> > > spiritual problem?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > It's neither moral nor spiritual. It is a physical action.

>

>

>There are many billions of physical actions which have moral and

>spiritual motivations and consequences. Alcoholic drinking is one

>such physical action. There is no escaping this.

>

>But for the grace of God,

>Kay T.

>

> " There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

>is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

>(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

>prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

>[big Book, p. 570]

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > Dont be ridiculous. Okay, so maybe it is a little drammatic to

say

> > that you are killing people with this list but if this list

> > encourages people who have had previous drinking problems to go

out

> > and drink then it is encouraging very dangerous bechavior which

> could

> > put peoples lives at risk. I think that is poor advice for

someone

> > with a history of drinking problems who is drinking just to fit

in

> > with new neighbors. And AA is proven to help people so why gather

> > here to blast aa. I just think it is wreckless.

> >

>

>

> Kay,

> It was suggested i get a sponsor,

> " read the big book,

> " find god,

> " know and do this gods will,

> " do what i'm told,

> " this list could go on and on.....

> then told if i wasn't willing to do these 'suggestions'

> better go back out (use till the shit beats the crap out

> of ya) then you'll be more then grateful to do what we

> suggest. Some of my family and friends did not make it

> back to carry on with those suggestions, which by the way

> never cease to stop....if you are in AA and following

> your sponsors directions....you should know this.

If somebody told you that you should go back out and use if you were

not willing to do all those things they were dead wrong. Are you sure

you didn't just hear it that way? Some one actually said that to you

just like that? You are describing a perversion of the program. AA is

not to be used to beat anything out of anyone. My sponsor never

treated me like that. She told me that if she was going to sponsor me

then there would be a few requirements: telephone calls, meetings,

study the big book, outreach work, that's all. I thought it was

reasonable. She never told me what to do.

> Telling someone they are going to die if they drink again,

> then tell them to go back out, to manipulate them into

> following the program....is malicious and cruel.

> AA kills!

>

But it sounds like someone you know did die because they drank again.

Wasn't this a reasonable and valid warning. I am truly sorry, but I

don't follow how aa is responsible for this. I don't know how aa

manipulates people into following the program. Its a matter of choice.

Kay T.

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > Dont be ridiculous. Okay, so maybe it is a little drammatic to

say

> > that you are killing people with this list but if this list

> > encourages people who have had previous drinking problems to go

out

> > and drink then it is encouraging very dangerous bechavior which

> could

> > put peoples lives at risk. I think that is poor advice for

someone

> > with a history of drinking problems who is drinking just to fit

in

> > with new neighbors. And AA is proven to help people so why gather

> > here to blast aa. I just think it is wreckless.

> >

>

>

> Kay,

> It was suggested i get a sponsor,

> " read the big book,

> " find god,

> " know and do this gods will,

> " do what i'm told,

> " this list could go on and on.....

> then told if i wasn't willing to do these 'suggestions'

> better go back out (use till the shit beats the crap out

> of ya) then you'll be more then grateful to do what we

> suggest. Some of my family and friends did not make it

> back to carry on with those suggestions, which by the way

> never cease to stop....if you are in AA and following

> your sponsors directions....you should know this.

If somebody told you that you should go back out and use if you were

not willing to do all those things they were dead wrong. Are you sure

you didn't just hear it that way? Some one actually said that to you

just like that? You are describing a perversion of the program. AA is

not to be used to beat anything out of anyone. My sponsor never

treated me like that. She told me that if she was going to sponsor me

then there would be a few requirements: telephone calls, meetings,

study the big book, outreach work, that's all. I thought it was

reasonable. She never told me what to do.

> Telling someone they are going to die if they drink again,

> then tell them to go back out, to manipulate them into

> following the program....is malicious and cruel.

> AA kills!

>

But it sounds like someone you know did die because they drank again.

Wasn't this a reasonable and valid warning. I am truly sorry, but I

don't follow how aa is responsible for this. I don't know how aa

manipulates people into following the program. Its a matter of choice.

Kay T.