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As for moderate drinking,

> it might be the lesser of two evils if someone is so put off by the philosophy

> if you will of the 12-steps and chooses to take their own life because they

> are not "constitutionally capable."

What the hell are you saying here? You are saying in effect that people who are not willing to make a change of mind and lifestyle for some 'philosophical' differences would be better off committing suicide!!!

I have to clarify this. I am not saying that suicide is better than going to AA, I'm saying that moderate drinking is better than suicide, wouldn't you agree?

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As for moderate drinking,

> it might be the lesser of two evils if someone is so put off by the philosophy

> if you will of the 12-steps and chooses to take their own life because they

> are not "constitutionally capable."

What the hell are you saying here? You are saying in effect that people who are not willing to make a change of mind and lifestyle for some 'philosophical' differences would be better off committing suicide!!!

I have to clarify this. I am not saying that suicide is better than going to AA, I'm saying that moderate drinking is better than suicide, wouldn't you agree?

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As for moderate drinking,

> it might be the lesser of two evils if someone is so put off by the philosophy

> if you will of the 12-steps and chooses to take their own life because they

> are not "constitutionally capable."

What the hell are you saying here? You are saying in effect that people who are not willing to make a change of mind and lifestyle for some 'philosophical' differences would be better off committing suicide!!!

I have to clarify this. I am not saying that suicide is better than going to AA, I'm saying that moderate drinking is better than suicide, wouldn't you agree?

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Nothing. What's > wrong with people objecting to it? Really, nothing. If someone thinks that > AA is not for him or her, that's okay, too, right?

You know what. You are probably right but they always come crying back to meetings when they fall. AA is proven to help alcoholics. The denial and resistence to treatment of alcoholics is unbelievable.

Kay, do you resent the people who have fallen off the wagon and come to your meetings crying about it when you are maintaining perfect sobriety?

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Nothing. What's > wrong with people objecting to it? Really, nothing. If someone thinks that > AA is not for him or her, that's okay, too, right?

You know what. You are probably right but they always come crying back to meetings when they fall. AA is proven to help alcoholics. The denial and resistence to treatment of alcoholics is unbelievable.

Kay, do you resent the people who have fallen off the wagon and come to your meetings crying about it when you are maintaining perfect sobriety?

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Nothing. What's > wrong with people objecting to it? Really, nothing. If someone thinks that > AA is not for him or her, that's okay, too, right?

You know what. You are probably right but they always come crying back to meetings when they fall. AA is proven to help alcoholics. The denial and resistence to treatment of alcoholics is unbelievable.

Kay, do you resent the people who have fallen off the wagon and come to your meetings crying about it when you are maintaining perfect sobriety?

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AA absolutely does not support people's decision to moderate drinking. As for the spriitual stuff, you should read We Agnostics in the big book. It shows clearly how people can throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

No, it says if you're not sure you're an alcoholic, try some controlled drinking, "...step over to the bar and ..." It gives precise instructions. It also classifies drinkers in one of the first chapters as moderate, able to stop, or hard core, I'm sorry, I forget the wording. But it does imply that not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic.

Yes, the chapter We Agnostics well addresses the dilemma of someone who is not sure about his or her faith. And in the 12 and 12 it even speaks of the fact that it is harder for those who have had faith to regain it, than to those who have had none to achieve it. I'm sorry I forget which step.

AA never, however, never allows for someone with strong beliefs about having no faith, to maintain those beliefs. It does not accommodate the atheist and there is no getting around that.

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AA absolutely does not support people's decision to moderate drinking. As for the spriitual stuff, you should read We Agnostics in the big book. It shows clearly how people can throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

No, it says if you're not sure you're an alcoholic, try some controlled drinking, "...step over to the bar and ..." It gives precise instructions. It also classifies drinkers in one of the first chapters as moderate, able to stop, or hard core, I'm sorry, I forget the wording. But it does imply that not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic.

Yes, the chapter We Agnostics well addresses the dilemma of someone who is not sure about his or her faith. And in the 12 and 12 it even speaks of the fact that it is harder for those who have had faith to regain it, than to those who have had none to achieve it. I'm sorry I forget which step.

AA never, however, never allows for someone with strong beliefs about having no faith, to maintain those beliefs. It does not accommodate the atheist and there is no getting around that.

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....oh yes it does. Why would someone in their right mind who has had a history of abusive or alcoholic drinking start drinking again? AA has some very apt explanations for this. It is because of a spiritual dilemna. It is a form of insanity. There is an implicit lack of self-

respect in this action. What less is this than a moral and a spiritual problem?

It's neither moral nor spiritual. It is a physical action.

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This is not aA's fault that people are not honest. You have made this point earlier so I don't know why you don't see this.

I didn't say it was not because they were not honest. I said that it was their choice but AA, like you are doing now, twists words up and ideas. They say "constitutionally incapable." What in the world does that mean?

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This is not aA's fault that people are not honest. You have made this point earlier so I don't know why you don't see this.

I didn't say it was not because they were not honest. I said that it was their choice but AA, like you are doing now, twists words up and ideas. They say "constitutionally incapable." What in the world does that mean?

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This is not aA's fault that people are not honest. You have made this point earlier so I don't know why you don't see this.

I didn't say it was not because they were not honest. I said that it was their choice but AA, like you are doing now, twists words up and ideas. They say "constitutionally incapable." What in the world does that mean?

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And if you are accusing AA of killing people, what are you trying to say? An organization that supports abstinence (not moderation) and a better lifestyle which will foster abstinence kills people in what way?

What I'm trying to say is that some people who go into AA to stop drinking, don't need to moderate their beliefs. They're Okay with God, they just need to stop a behavior that's killing them. Some of them, some unfortunates as AA says in its disclaimer, end up taking their own lives because they can't "get" the program. Why does someone have to "get" a program to stay alive once they have stopped drinking. There are many cases of people dry taking their lives because they cannot work the program. Also, some of those same fatalities, if they had been given other options other than meetings, sponsors, God, steps . . . I mean, wouldn't you rather have someone moderate and be alive than just give up. I'm not talking about alcoholism being the cause for this act, I'm talking about inner conflicts caused by attending meetings, trying to work the steps to the best of their abilities. That to me is a sin, and it happens often in and out of the rooms of AA.

Okay, here's my suggestions for staying sober:

Don't drink alcoholic beverages.

Stick with people who aren't sicker than you.

Stick with family, friends you trust, find a hobby and a job you like.

Exercise and be grateful.

Find a spiritual outlet if you choose, church, synagogue

Practice your faith if you choose

Give thanks and stay well

Otherwise, there are many alternatives to Alcoholics Anonymous and specifically the 12 steps. Women for Sobriety would have been my choice if I had known about it. Moderation Management, SMART, Rational Recovery, Secular Organizations for Sobriety. For those who do not mind the 12 steps, which are the basis of the program of recovery of Alcoholics Anonymous, you will find that organization in nearly every city across this land and lands beyond. And, if you have not heard of it already, turn on your radio, they are now advertising. So, I guess this 12-step free zone is really a thorn in the side of Bill 's dream, not just of one drunk helping another, but of the 12 steps empowering the World. You might want to read a little about him, on second thought, if you like AA, better not, best not to know. This is one case where contempt prior to investigation would be justified because you would not like what you learn.

So, I spent 3 and 1/2 years in the rooms of AA. Am I guilty of contempt prior to investigation? No, I am guilty of contempt after investigation. Are you?

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And if you are accusing AA of killing people, what are you trying to say? An organization that supports abstinence (not moderation) and a better lifestyle which will foster abstinence kills people in what way?

What I'm trying to say is that some people who go into AA to stop drinking, don't need to moderate their beliefs. They're Okay with God, they just need to stop a behavior that's killing them. Some of them, some unfortunates as AA says in its disclaimer, end up taking their own lives because they can't "get" the program. Why does someone have to "get" a program to stay alive once they have stopped drinking. There are many cases of people dry taking their lives because they cannot work the program. Also, some of those same fatalities, if they had been given other options other than meetings, sponsors, God, steps . . . I mean, wouldn't you rather have someone moderate and be alive than just give up. I'm not talking about alcoholism being the cause for this act, I'm talking about inner conflicts caused by attending meetings, trying to work the steps to the best of their abilities. That to me is a sin, and it happens often in and out of the rooms of AA.

Okay, here's my suggestions for staying sober:

Don't drink alcoholic beverages.

Stick with people who aren't sicker than you.

Stick with family, friends you trust, find a hobby and a job you like.

Exercise and be grateful.

Find a spiritual outlet if you choose, church, synagogue

Practice your faith if you choose

Give thanks and stay well

Otherwise, there are many alternatives to Alcoholics Anonymous and specifically the 12 steps. Women for Sobriety would have been my choice if I had known about it. Moderation Management, SMART, Rational Recovery, Secular Organizations for Sobriety. For those who do not mind the 12 steps, which are the basis of the program of recovery of Alcoholics Anonymous, you will find that organization in nearly every city across this land and lands beyond. And, if you have not heard of it already, turn on your radio, they are now advertising. So, I guess this 12-step free zone is really a thorn in the side of Bill 's dream, not just of one drunk helping another, but of the 12 steps empowering the World. You might want to read a little about him, on second thought, if you like AA, better not, best not to know. This is one case where contempt prior to investigation would be justified because you would not like what you learn.

So, I spent 3 and 1/2 years in the rooms of AA. Am I guilty of contempt prior to investigation? No, I am guilty of contempt after investigation. Are you?

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And if you are accusing AA of killing people, what are you trying to say? An organization that supports abstinence (not moderation) and a better lifestyle which will foster abstinence kills people in what way?

What I'm trying to say is that some people who go into AA to stop drinking, don't need to moderate their beliefs. They're Okay with God, they just need to stop a behavior that's killing them. Some of them, some unfortunates as AA says in its disclaimer, end up taking their own lives because they can't "get" the program. Why does someone have to "get" a program to stay alive once they have stopped drinking. There are many cases of people dry taking their lives because they cannot work the program. Also, some of those same fatalities, if they had been given other options other than meetings, sponsors, God, steps . . . I mean, wouldn't you rather have someone moderate and be alive than just give up. I'm not talking about alcoholism being the cause for this act, I'm talking about inner conflicts caused by attending meetings, trying to work the steps to the best of their abilities. That to me is a sin, and it happens often in and out of the rooms of AA.

Okay, here's my suggestions for staying sober:

Don't drink alcoholic beverages.

Stick with people who aren't sicker than you.

Stick with family, friends you trust, find a hobby and a job you like.

Exercise and be grateful.

Find a spiritual outlet if you choose, church, synagogue

Practice your faith if you choose

Give thanks and stay well

Otherwise, there are many alternatives to Alcoholics Anonymous and specifically the 12 steps. Women for Sobriety would have been my choice if I had known about it. Moderation Management, SMART, Rational Recovery, Secular Organizations for Sobriety. For those who do not mind the 12 steps, which are the basis of the program of recovery of Alcoholics Anonymous, you will find that organization in nearly every city across this land and lands beyond. And, if you have not heard of it already, turn on your radio, they are now advertising. So, I guess this 12-step free zone is really a thorn in the side of Bill 's dream, not just of one drunk helping another, but of the 12 steps empowering the World. You might want to read a little about him, on second thought, if you like AA, better not, best not to know. This is one case where contempt prior to investigation would be justified because you would not like what you learn.

So, I spent 3 and 1/2 years in the rooms of AA. Am I guilty of contempt prior to investigation? No, I am guilty of contempt after investigation. Are you?

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Oh yeah, I remember, they just weren't ready

or they hadn't reached their bottom yet, give AA another try ...

As my sagacious neighbor pointed out when I got AA, for

some the bottom is death.

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Oh yeah, I remember, they just weren't ready

or they hadn't reached their bottom yet, give AA another try ...

As my sagacious neighbor pointed out when I got AA, for

some the bottom is death.

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I have been going to AA for 7 years. AA saved my life and the lives

of many people I know. I cant believe some of the things I have read

here. You all have AA all wrong. Look at some of the things in this

group's description:

1. Doctine?!?!?!??? Clearly this group has got some basics of AA

all wrong. From what little I have read here I can tell that of the

basics that are understood, they are often twisted around to match

the paranoid wishful fantasies of people who simply refuse to accept

the size of the problem of alcoholism and the

wholesale miracle that is Alcoholics Anonymous. But to be clear for

those who have misunderstood, the 12 steps are suggestions, they are

not doctrine! They are guides to spiritual progress. How can this be

confusing? Granted, if you want to practice the 12 steps then there

are specific instructions in the big book. The steps do have meaning

and there are " clear cut directions " to follow if you want to

practice the steps, but you are not required to practice the steps to

be a member of AA. So how can you possibly accept that there is such

a thing as 12 step doctrine? Ridiculous.

2. A discussion list for those who have left the groups? Looks to me

like a meeting place for dry drunks who want to drink and encourage

others to do so. I read a few messages back of a person who started

drinking again for social reasons and then several subsequent

messages which support his decision to drink. I have never seen an

imposture at an AA meeting. If you have a problem with alcohol, it is

very likely that you will always react the same way no matter how

long you manage to stay dry. It is an allergy and it is very

disturbing to see an online forum which supports, even encourages

alcoholics to go ahead and drink and criticize the only viable help

for alcoholism

Religion? What are you people believing in here? SPIRITUAL!!!! It is

a program of spiritual principles. Religious people are welcome, but

this is not a religious program. " God and we undertood

Him " !!! This

should open the door wide for anyone who wants to try the steps.

More like disinformation and misinformation!!!

AA has beat you to this, you are not going to be the first. The

consensus at AA meetings can hardly be called unanimous. All opinions

are welcome at AA. Though I will not be representing a majority of

this particular group's opinions by pointing this out there are

plenty of defects of character motivating this list. Cowardice,

apathy, complacency, hypocrisy, ARROGANCE, fear, FEAR FEAR FEAR, and

blatant irresponsible resentment.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!! This list is an AA group. It is at the

extreme fringe, but it is an AA meeting. It is a group of dry drunks

gathered to bomb AA and somehow stay sober in the process. It is a

hate group. Imagine seeing that in your AA meeting directory, The We

Hate AA group. Only on the internet.

AA has helped more people to sobriety than any other program. If

there really are any other alternatives that work then where are

they? Alcoholism is a spiritual illness. It requires a spiritual

solution. AA gives that answer. You can fight and kick and scream but

facts are facts. People like the guy on this list who drank with his

neighbors will always come crawling back to AA after a relapse. Why

do you think that is? Because there just isn't a better

alternative.

AA works. AA helps. It gives people their lives back.

This list is very dangerous. How can you be justified in teaching

people all these lies about AA. You are going to send people to their

deaths with this page. Your ignorant views of AA are a deliberate

bastardization of the program to suit your own recalcitrance.

Unbelievable! I have seen difficult sponsees and some other

alcoholics behave this way, I never thought I'd see the day when

people like this would organize.

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

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Kay T. reminds me of the director in the Truman show when he tries to kill Truman in the boat with huge fans buckets of water and a wave machine. Just maybe Kay T. can see through her madness.

DT

Nuts!

I have been going to AA for 7 years. AA saved my life and the lives of many people I know. I cant believe some of the things I have read here. You all have AA all wrong. Look at some of the things in this group's description:<Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine.>1. Doctine?!?!?!??? Clearly this group has got some basics of AA all wrong. From what little I have read here I can tell that of the basics that are understood, they are often twisted around to match the paranoid wishful fantasies of people who simply refuse to accept the size of the problem of alcoholism and the wholesale miracle that is Alcoholics Anonymous. But to be clear for those who have misunderstood, the 12 steps are suggestions, they are not doctrine! They are guides to spiritual progress. How can this be confusing? Granted, if you want to practice the 12 steps then there are specific instructions in the big book. The steps do have meaning and there are "clear cut directions" to follow if you want to practice the steps, but you are not required to practice the steps to be a member of AA. So how can you possibly accept that there is such a thing as 12 step doctrine? Ridiculous.2. A discussion list for those who have left the groups? Looks to me like a meeting place for dry drunks who want to drink and encourage others to do so. I read a few messages back of a person who started drinking again for social reasons and then several subsequent messages which support his decision to drink. I have never seen an imposture at an AA meeting. If you have a problem with alcohol, it is very likely that you will always react the same way no matter how long you manage to stay dry. It is an allergy and it is very disturbing to see an online forum which supports, even encourages alcoholics to go ahead and drink and criticize the only viable help for alcoholism<It is also for those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion.>Religion? What are you people believing in here? SPIRITUAL!!!! It is a program of spiritual principles. Religious people are welcome, but this is not a religious program. "God and we undertoodHim"!!! This should open the door wide for anyone who wants to try the steps.<The focus of discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the step groups.>More like disinformation and misinformation!!! <Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a "unanimous majority" of groupers of suffering from one "defect of character" or another for doing so.>AA has beat you to this, you are not going to be the first. The consensus at AA meetings can hardly be called unanimous. All opinions are welcome at AA. Though I will not be representing a majority of this particular group's opinions by pointing this out there are plenty of defects of character motivating this list. Cowardice, apathy, complacency, hypocrisy, ARROGANCE, fear, FEAR FEAR FEAR, and blatant irresponsible resentment.<Although not the focus here, information on alternative organizations and methods of resolving drinking problems are available for the asking.>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!! This list is an AA group. It is at the extreme fringe, but it is an AA meeting. It is a group of dry drunks gathered to bomb AA and somehow stay sober in the process. It is a hate group. Imagine seeing that in your AA meeting directory, The We Hate AA group. Only on the internet.AA has helped more people to sobriety than any other program. If there really are any other alternatives that work then where are they? Alcoholism is a spiritual illness. It requires a spiritual solution. AA gives that answer. You can fight and kick and scream but facts are facts. People like the guy on this list who drank with his neighbors will always come crawling back to AA after a relapse. Why do you think that is? Because there just isn't a betteralternative. AA works. AA helps. It gives people their lives back.This list is very dangerous. How can you be justified in teaching people all these lies about AA. You are going to send people to their deaths with this page. Your ignorant views of AA are a deliberate bastardization of the program to suit your own recalcitrance. Unbelievable! I have seen difficult sponsees and some other alcoholics behave this way, I never thought I'd see the day when people like this would organize.But for the grace of God,Kay T.

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Kay T. reminds me of the director in the Truman show when he tries to kill Truman in the boat with huge fans buckets of water and a wave machine. Just maybe Kay T. can see through her madness.

DT

Nuts!

I have been going to AA for 7 years. AA saved my life and the lives of many people I know. I cant believe some of the things I have read here. You all have AA all wrong. Look at some of the things in this group's description:<Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine.>1. Doctine?!?!?!??? Clearly this group has got some basics of AA all wrong. From what little I have read here I can tell that of the basics that are understood, they are often twisted around to match the paranoid wishful fantasies of people who simply refuse to accept the size of the problem of alcoholism and the wholesale miracle that is Alcoholics Anonymous. But to be clear for those who have misunderstood, the 12 steps are suggestions, they are not doctrine! They are guides to spiritual progress. How can this be confusing? Granted, if you want to practice the 12 steps then there are specific instructions in the big book. The steps do have meaning and there are "clear cut directions" to follow if you want to practice the steps, but you are not required to practice the steps to be a member of AA. So how can you possibly accept that there is such a thing as 12 step doctrine? Ridiculous.2. A discussion list for those who have left the groups? Looks to me like a meeting place for dry drunks who want to drink and encourage others to do so. I read a few messages back of a person who started drinking again for social reasons and then several subsequent messages which support his decision to drink. I have never seen an imposture at an AA meeting. If you have a problem with alcohol, it is very likely that you will always react the same way no matter how long you manage to stay dry. It is an allergy and it is very disturbing to see an online forum which supports, even encourages alcoholics to go ahead and drink and criticize the only viable help for alcoholism<It is also for those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion.>Religion? What are you people believing in here? SPIRITUAL!!!! It is a program of spiritual principles. Religious people are welcome, but this is not a religious program. "God and we undertoodHim"!!! This should open the door wide for anyone who wants to try the steps.<The focus of discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the step groups.>More like disinformation and misinformation!!! <Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a "unanimous majority" of groupers of suffering from one "defect of character" or another for doing so.>AA has beat you to this, you are not going to be the first. The consensus at AA meetings can hardly be called unanimous. All opinions are welcome at AA. Though I will not be representing a majority of this particular group's opinions by pointing this out there are plenty of defects of character motivating this list. Cowardice, apathy, complacency, hypocrisy, ARROGANCE, fear, FEAR FEAR FEAR, and blatant irresponsible resentment.<Although not the focus here, information on alternative organizations and methods of resolving drinking problems are available for the asking.>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!! This list is an AA group. It is at the extreme fringe, but it is an AA meeting. It is a group of dry drunks gathered to bomb AA and somehow stay sober in the process. It is a hate group. Imagine seeing that in your AA meeting directory, The We Hate AA group. Only on the internet.AA has helped more people to sobriety than any other program. If there really are any other alternatives that work then where are they? Alcoholism is a spiritual illness. It requires a spiritual solution. AA gives that answer. You can fight and kick and scream but facts are facts. People like the guy on this list who drank with his neighbors will always come crawling back to AA after a relapse. Why do you think that is? Because there just isn't a betteralternative. AA works. AA helps. It gives people their lives back.This list is very dangerous. How can you be justified in teaching people all these lies about AA. You are going to send people to their deaths with this page. Your ignorant views of AA are a deliberate bastardization of the program to suit your own recalcitrance. Unbelievable! I have seen difficult sponsees and some other alcoholics behave this way, I never thought I'd see the day when people like this would organize.But for the grace of God,Kay T.

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Hi Kay

Let me answer some of you points

1. I do not want a sponsor because some of the beliefs of AA just do not fit

me and unless I found a sponsor I can work with it is pointless. Now my home

group has declared that I am " not working the steps " and I am not " fit " to

lead in reading from the step book. Now I thought that the only requirement

to be a member of AA is a desire to stop drinking.

2.I currently attend AA and I am not intending to leave unless rational

recovery or smart comes in the area. I think that that AA is very cultist to

label anyone who does not drink and does go to AA a dry drunk. AA does this

almost 100% of the time, nothing is absolute!

3. As a Atheist I would like to know if AA is not a religious program then

what is the point of me using a doorknob as my higher power? I mean if I do

not pray to a god then what's the point, unless you want to demean my

beliefs?

I'll stop here, I hate to put so many points in a post the it is hard for

people to reply.

Sure AA works, but look at the price it demands and it could be so simple.

I am a Atheist yet I see the wisdom of these words:

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his

own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Bible , ch. 16

abbadun

>From: kahn_troll@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Nuts!

>Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 03:21:37 -0000

>1. Doctine?!?!?!??? Clearly this group has got some basics of AA

>all wrong. From what little I have read here I can tell that of the

>basics that are understood, they are often twisted around to match

>the paranoid wishful fantasies of people who simply refuse to accept

>the size of the problem of alcoholism and the

>wholesale miracle that is Alcoholics Anonymous. But to be clear for

>those who have misunderstood, the 12 steps are suggestions, they are

>not doctrine! They are guides to spiritual progress. How can this be

>confusing? Granted, if you want to practice the 12 steps then there

>are specific instructions in the big book. The steps do have meaning

>and there are " clear cut directions " to follow if you want to

>practice the steps, but you are not required to practice the steps to

>be a member of AA. So how can you possibly accept that there is such

>a thing as 12 step doctrine? Ridiculous.

>2. A discussion list for those who have left the groups? Looks to me

>like a meeting place for dry drunks who want to drink and encourage

>others to do so. I read a few messages back of a person who started

>drinking again for social reasons and then several subsequent

>messages which support his decision to drink. I have never seen an

>imposture at an AA meeting. If you have a problem with alcohol, it is

>very likely that you will always react the same way no matter how

>long you manage to stay dry. It is an allergy and it is very

>disturbing to see an online forum which supports, even encourages

>alcoholics to go ahead and drink and criticize the only viable help

>for alcoholism

>

>

>

religion.>

>

>Religion? What are you people believing in here? SPIRITUAL!!!! It is

>a program of spiritual principles. Religious people are welcome, but

>this is not a religious program. " God and we undertood

>Him " !!! This

>should open the door wide for anyone who wants to try the steps.

>

>

>

information on the step groups.>

>

>More like disinformation and misinformation!!!

>

>

>

where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous

>majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character " or

>another for doing so.>

>

>AA has beat you to this, you are not going to be the first. The

>consensus at AA meetings can hardly be called unanimous. All opinions

>are welcome at AA. Though I will not be representing a majority of

>this particular group's opinions by pointing this out there are

>plenty of defects of character motivating this list. Cowardice,

>apathy, complacency, hypocrisy, ARROGANCE, fear, FEAR FEAR FEAR, and

>blatant irresponsible resentment.

>

>

>

organizations and methods of resolving drinking problems are

>available for the asking.>

>

>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!! This list is an AA group. It is at the

>extreme fringe, but it is an AA meeting. It is a group of dry drunks

>gathered to bomb AA and somehow stay sober in the process. It is a

>hate group. Imagine seeing that in your AA meeting directory, The We

>Hate AA group. Only on the internet.

>

>AA has helped more people to sobriety than any other program. If

>there really are any other alternatives that work then where are

>they? Alcoholism is a spiritual illness. It requires a spiritual

>solution. AA gives that answer. You can fight and kick and scream but

>facts are facts. People like the guy on this list who drank with his

>neighbors will always come crawling back to AA after a relapse. Why

>do you think that is? Because there just isn't a better

>alternative.

>AA works. AA helps. It gives people their lives back.

>

>This list is very dangerous. How can you be justified in teaching

>people all these lies about AA. You are going to send people to their

>deaths with this page. Your ignorant views of AA are a deliberate

>bastardization of the program to suit your own recalcitrance.

>Unbelievable! I have seen difficult sponsees and some other

>alcoholics behave this way, I never thought I'd see the day when

>people like this would organize.

>

>But for the grace of God,

>Kay T.

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

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>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Nuts!

>Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:51:12 -0500

>

>

>

>

>Hi Kay

>

>Let me answer some of you points

>

>

>1. I do not want a sponsor because some of the beliefs of AA just do not

>fit

>me and unless I found a sponsor I can work with it is pointless. Now my

>home

>group has declared that I am " not working the steps " and I am not " fit " to

>lead in reading from the step book. Now I thought that the only requirement

>to be a member of AA is a desire to stop drinking.

>

>2.I currently attend AA and I am not intending to leave unless rational

>recovery or smart comes in the area. I think that that AA is very cultist

>to

>label anyone who does not drink and does not go to AA a dry drunk. AA does

>this

>almost 100% of the time, nothing is absolute!

>

>

>3. As a Atheist I would like to know if AA is not a religious program then

>what is the point of me using a doorknob as my higher power? I mean if I do

>not pray to a god then what's the point, unless you want to demean my

>beliefs?

>

>I'll stop here, I hate to put so many points in a post the it is hard for

>people to reply.

>

>Sure AA works, but look at the price it demands and it could be so simple.

>

>I am a Atheist yet I see the wisdom of these words:

>

>

>For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his

>own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

>

>Bible , ch. 16

>

>

>abbadun

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> >From: kahn_troll@...

> >Reply-To: 12-step-free

> >To: 12-step-free

> >Subject: Nuts!

> >Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 03:21:37 -0000

>

>

>

>

>

> >1. Doctine?!?!?!??? Clearly this group has got some basics of AA

> >all wrong. From what little I have read here I can tell that of the

> >basics that are understood, they are often twisted around to match

> >the paranoid wishful fantasies of people who simply refuse to accept

> >the size of the problem of alcoholism and the

> >wholesale miracle that is Alcoholics Anonymous. But to be clear for

> >those who have misunderstood, the 12 steps are suggestions, they are

> >not doctrine! They are guides to spiritual progress. How can this be

> >confusing? Granted, if you want to practice the 12 steps then there

> >are specific instructions in the big book. The steps do have meaning

> >and there are " clear cut directions " to follow if you want to

> >practice the steps, but you are not required to practice the steps to

> >be a member of AA. So how can you possibly accept that there is such

> >a thing as 12 step doctrine? Ridiculous.

>

>

>

> >2. A discussion list for those who have left the groups? Looks to me

> >like a meeting place for dry drunks who want to drink and encourage

> >others to do so. I read a few messages back of a person who started

> >drinking again for social reasons and then several subsequent

> >messages which support his decision to drink. I have never seen an

> >imposture at an AA meeting. If you have a problem with alcohol, it is

> >very likely that you will always react the same way no matter how

> >long you manage to stay dry. It is an allergy and it is very

> >disturbing to see an online forum which supports, even encourages

> >alcoholics to go ahead and drink and criticize the only viable help

> >for alcoholism

> >

> >

> >

>religion.>

> >

> >Religion? What are you people believing in here? SPIRITUAL!!!! It is

> >a program of spiritual principles. Religious people are welcome, but

> >this is not a religious program. " God and we undertood

> >Him " !!! This

> >should open the door wide for anyone who wants to try the steps.

> >

> >

> >

>information on the step groups.>

> >

> >More like disinformation and misinformation!!!

> >

> >

> >

>where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous

> >majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character " or

> >another for doing so.>

> >

> >AA has beat you to this, you are not going to be the first. The

> >consensus at AA meetings can hardly be called unanimous. All opinions

> >are welcome at AA. Though I will not be representing a majority of

> >this particular group's opinions by pointing this out there are

> >plenty of defects of character motivating this list. Cowardice,

> >apathy, complacency, hypocrisy, ARROGANCE, fear, FEAR FEAR FEAR, and

> >blatant irresponsible resentment.

> >

> >

> >

>organizations and methods of resolving drinking problems are

> >available for the asking.>

> >

> >HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!! This list is an AA group. It is at the

> >extreme fringe, but it is an AA meeting. It is a group of dry drunks

> >gathered to bomb AA and somehow stay sober in the process. It is a

> >hate group. Imagine seeing that in your AA meeting directory, The We

> >Hate AA group. Only on the internet.

> >

> >AA has helped more people to sobriety than any other program. If

> >there really are any other alternatives that work then where are

> >they? Alcoholism is a spiritual illness. It requires a spiritual

> >solution. AA gives that answer. You can fight and kick and scream but

> >facts are facts. People like the guy on this list who drank with his

> >neighbors will always come crawling back to AA after a relapse. Why

> >do you think that is? Because there just isn't a better

> >alternative.

> >AA works. AA helps. It gives people their lives back.

> >

> >This list is very dangerous. How can you be justified in teaching

> >people all these lies about AA. You are going to send people to their

> >deaths with this page. Your ignorant views of AA are a deliberate

> >bastardization of the program to suit your own recalcitrance.

> >Unbelievable! I have seen difficult sponsees and some other

> >alcoholics behave this way, I never thought I'd see the day when

> >people like this would organize.

> >

> >But for the grace of God,

> >Kay T.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>_________________________________________________________________

>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

>

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At 04:33 AM 11/1/01 -0000, kahn_troll@... wrote:

>

>> >here. You all have AA all wrong.

>>

>> So why are you telling us this? Do you think you are going to

>> change us?

>

>

>No you flippant boob. Do you ask this question of everyone who tells

>you soemthing?

So you say you don't think you are going to change us, but you

tell us that we all have AA all wrong. Why do you tell us this?

>Here's me: Hey Ben I have been going to AA for a while.

>Here's Ben: What are you trying to change me!!!!

>

>Don't be so paranoid. I am merely presenting another view point

>evidently in a hostile environment.

We've seen this point of view many times. I and some others have

actually had that viewpoint. Ask some old-timers for an April 1990

Grapevine magazine and read the Letters section (what was it, POBox

1980).

>You asked about my nick. Its a play on my real initials and a poke at

>myself becaue I have been called a control freak for sharing opinions

>like the ones I share here.

So who isn't a control freak in AA? Isn't it part of The Disease of

Alcoholism? Read the big book starting at the bottom of page 63: " Each

person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show... "

>So I guess I am par for the course.

>Besides I reckoned that I would called a troll when I joined this

>list

Anyone who defends AA on this list is called a troll, so you should

be relieved to hear that you are not " terminally unique. "

>but I am not going to stand by without having something to say.

And I and others here will not stand by without challenging you

on your defense of AA.

>> >How can you be justified in teaching

>> >people all these lies about AA. You are going to send people to

>their

>> >deaths with this page.

>>

>> There you are, go ahead. Please. Call your local police. Call the

>> FBI. This list is killing people. Have them stop us. The lives of

>your

>> fellow alcoholics depends on it.

>> Don't hesitate, do it NOW!

>

>

>Dont be ridiculous. Okay, so maybe it is a little drammatic to say

>that you are killing people with this list

So maybe you're the one being ridiculous.

>but if this list

>encourages people who have had previous drinking problems to go out

>and drink then it is encouraging very dangerous bechavior which could

>put peoples lives at risk. I think that is poor advice for someone

>with a history of drinking problems who is drinking just to fit in

>with new neighbors. And AA is proven to help people

How is it proven? Where is it proven?

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

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At 04:33 AM 11/1/01 -0000, kahn_troll@... wrote:

>

>> >here. You all have AA all wrong.

>>

>> So why are you telling us this? Do you think you are going to

>> change us?

>

>

>No you flippant boob. Do you ask this question of everyone who tells

>you soemthing?

So you say you don't think you are going to change us, but you

tell us that we all have AA all wrong. Why do you tell us this?

>Here's me: Hey Ben I have been going to AA for a while.

>Here's Ben: What are you trying to change me!!!!

>

>Don't be so paranoid. I am merely presenting another view point

>evidently in a hostile environment.

We've seen this point of view many times. I and some others have

actually had that viewpoint. Ask some old-timers for an April 1990

Grapevine magazine and read the Letters section (what was it, POBox

1980).

>You asked about my nick. Its a play on my real initials and a poke at

>myself becaue I have been called a control freak for sharing opinions

>like the ones I share here.

So who isn't a control freak in AA? Isn't it part of The Disease of

Alcoholism? Read the big book starting at the bottom of page 63: " Each

person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show... "

>So I guess I am par for the course.

>Besides I reckoned that I would called a troll when I joined this

>list

Anyone who defends AA on this list is called a troll, so you should

be relieved to hear that you are not " terminally unique. "

>but I am not going to stand by without having something to say.

And I and others here will not stand by without challenging you

on your defense of AA.

>> >How can you be justified in teaching

>> >people all these lies about AA. You are going to send people to

>their

>> >deaths with this page.

>>

>> There you are, go ahead. Please. Call your local police. Call the

>> FBI. This list is killing people. Have them stop us. The lives of

>your

>> fellow alcoholics depends on it.

>> Don't hesitate, do it NOW!

>

>

>Dont be ridiculous. Okay, so maybe it is a little drammatic to say

>that you are killing people with this list

So maybe you're the one being ridiculous.

>but if this list

>encourages people who have had previous drinking problems to go out

>and drink then it is encouraging very dangerous bechavior which could

>put peoples lives at risk. I think that is poor advice for someone

>with a history of drinking problems who is drinking just to fit in

>with new neighbors. And AA is proven to help people

How is it proven? Where is it proven?

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

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>

> >> >here. You all have AA all wrong.

> >>

> >> So why are you telling us this? Do you think you are going to

> >> change us?

> >

> >

> >No you flippant boob. Do you ask this question of everyone who

tells

> >you soemthing?

>

> So you say you don't think you are going to change us, but you

> tell us that we all have AA all wrong. Why do you tell us this?

Sure it would be nice to clarify some things about AA. I think that

there is much misunderstanding and resentment about some anecdotal

ocurances in AA here. I share this view with you because there may be

vulnerable people visiting this group who may be supported in their

decision to drink where that may be very dangerous for them. I don't

expect to change people like you who may never have needed AA in the

first place.

> We've seen this point of view many times. I and some others have

> actually had that viewpoint. Ask some old-timers for an April 1990

> Grapevine magazine and read the Letters section (what was it, POBox

> 1980).

We have a ton of old Grapevines at my meeting. I will look for it

next week, but inthe meantime, could you post the letter here. My

meeting isn't until Monday.

>

> So who isn't a control freak in AA? Isn't it part of The Disease

of

> Alcoholism? Read the big book starting at the bottom of page

63: " Each

> person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show... "

Yes and more. This illustration of the actor wanting to run the show

is a description of how most people live, alcoholic or not. It is

meant to show how human beings create their own problems. This

actually starts on page 60 and continues on to 62 where it begins to

show how the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot.

This is a simple idea and it is not hard to see. For an alcoholic the

most important thing is a very self-centered concern. It is alcohol

and more of it. Yet I think it is unfair though for some people who

know me to call me a control freak because I don't hesitate to speak

my mind.

>

> >So I guess I am par for the course.

> >Besides I reckoned that I would called a troll when I joined this

> >list

>

> Anyone who defends AA on this list is called a troll, so you

should

> be relieved to hear that you are not " terminally unique. "

>

> >but I am not going to stand by without having something to say.

>

> And I and others here will not stand by without challenging you

> on your defense of AA.

Then we should be in for some fun.

>

> >> >How can you be justified in teaching

> >> >people all these lies about AA. You are going to send people to

> >their

> >> >deaths with this page.

> >>

> >> There you are, go ahead. Please. Call your local police. Call

the

> >> FBI. This list is killing people. Have them stop us. The lives

of

> >your

> >> fellow alcoholics depends on it.

> >> Don't hesitate, do it NOW!

> >

> >

> >Dont be ridiculous. Okay, so maybe it is a little drammatic to say

> >that you are killing people with this list

>

> So maybe you're the one being ridiculous.

Nope. Don't think so. I will admit to drama, but not comedy as you

have attempted above. :)

>

> >with new neighbors. And AA is proven to help people

>

> How is it proven? Where is it proven?

It is proven in my life and the lives of many people I know. There

are over two million AA members in this country. That has to speak

for something. Consider if you will all the years of AA history. How

many millions of people do you think AA has helped to sobriety

through the years. It is a good thing. It completely changed the way

the world treated alcoholics.

But for the grace of God,

Kay T.

" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which

is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man

(or woman) in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation. " - Herbert Spencer

[big Book, p. 570]

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