(unknown)

October 6, 2001

don't mean to be sexist, Ben, but I do think women

have been (are?) treated differently and tend to see

things differently (because of nature or nuture?) as a

generality.

--- Ben Bradley benbradley@...> wrote:

> At 10:15 PM 10/5/01 -0400, wrote:

> >Hello, Cyndi...It's almost 10 PM and I'm pretty

> tired right now. I just

> quit The Job From

> >Hell today

>

> Congratulations!

>

> >and am once again among The Unemployed, and I'm

> just too pooped to say

> anything

> >intelligent right now.

> >

> >But I do want to address things you've written.

> " But I've had problems

> with the way the

> >steps

> >don't deal with a woman's

> perspective... ...But, I have always beat

> myself up and

> >looking at my

> >defects doesn't help my self esteem. " Your words

> ring a bell here, and

> I'd like to

> >comment and offer my support.

>

> I so much want to say the " woman's perspective "

> thing is sexist. I don't

> see it as exclusively a woman's thing (even though

> Kasl also writes about

> this in the book I mention and recommend below),

> it's about treating

> people with respect and as if they had feelings

> (because sometimes they do,

> regardless of gender). AA just does not do this.

> But that's just my little rant...

>

> >A book: The Real Thirteenth Step : Discovering

> Confidence, Self-Reliance,

> and Autonomy

> >Beyond the 12-Step Programs, by Ph.D., Tina

> Tessina. It appears to be out

> of print at

> >present,

>

> I've seen it on the shelf about every time I've

> looked in the Recovery

> section at Borders in the last year, it's a

> different cover than the

> original edition I got when it first came out about

> 10 years ago.

>

> >but your library may have it. That's where I saw

> it. Amazon has used

> copies for

> >sale cheap. It may be just what the doctor

> ordered. You don't appear to

> have the intense

> >and explosive rage that many here have,

>

> You should tell her to unsubscribe before she

> catches it

>

> > but seem, rather, to have simply outgrown the

> >program. This book is directed at such people who

> have reached the point

> where it is time

> >to move on.

>

> I (and I would think many others here) feel " The

> Real 13th Step "

> doesn't go nearly far enough. For those who want to

> continue to work

> (or " take " , as an old sponsor would correct people)

> the 12 steps, this

> book has value in reinterpreting them to something

> more 'liberal' than

> is found in AA. But I reject the 12 steps as " a way

> of life. "

> In AA I once said how when people outside AA mess

> up, they just say

> " oops I'm sorry " or some such, they don't go

> analyzing it and try to

> figure out which step(s) apply [all of them] before

> figuring out what

> to do or say...I don't think anyone got it. They

> believed themselves

> to be totally incompetent to do anything without

> doing the steps.

>

> There is also " Many Roads, One Journey " by

> Charlotte Kasl,

> I found it much more open to many other ideas

> (though there are some

> 'new age' ideas in it that I don't agree with).

> And someone mentioned the Women For Sobriety

> website - I saw it years

> ago, it struck me as sort of like Al-Anon, with its

> copyrights and

> qualifications to be a WFS meeting leader or

> whatever they're called,

> it seemed almost as anal-retentive as the average

> 12-step group.

>

> Actually, I now give a lot more credence to the

> " Recovery Group

> Disorder " than I did years ago when I first heard of

> it - I was on the

> SOS list and Dave (I think it was) posted something

> like " all recovery

> groups will be declared obsolete " on January 1st (of

> what year, I

> forget - 97, 98, 99?).

> I don't want to " work a program. " I just want to

> live my life.

>

> ----------

> http://listen.to/benbradley

>

__________________________________________________

October 6, 2001

don't mean to be sexist, Ben, but I do think women

have been (are?) treated differently and tend to see

things differently (because of nature or nuture?) as a

generality.

--- Ben Bradley benbradley@...> wrote:

> At 10:15 PM 10/5/01 -0400, wrote:

> >Hello, Cyndi...It's almost 10 PM and I'm pretty

> tired right now. I just

> quit The Job From

> >Hell today

>

> Congratulations!

>

> >and am once again among The Unemployed, and I'm

> just too pooped to say

> anything

> >intelligent right now.

> >

> >But I do want to address things you've written.

> " But I've had problems

> with the way the

> >steps

> >don't deal with a woman's

> perspective... ...But, I have always beat

> myself up and

> >looking at my

> >defects doesn't help my self esteem. " Your words

> ring a bell here, and

> I'd like to

> >comment and offer my support.

>

> I so much want to say the " woman's perspective "

> thing is sexist. I don't

> see it as exclusively a woman's thing (even though

> Kasl also writes about

> this in the book I mention and recommend below),

> it's about treating

> people with respect and as if they had feelings

> (because sometimes they do,

> regardless of gender). AA just does not do this.

> But that's just my little rant...

>

> >A book: The Real Thirteenth Step : Discovering

> Confidence, Self-Reliance,

> and Autonomy

> >Beyond the 12-Step Programs, by Ph.D., Tina

> Tessina. It appears to be out

> of print at

> >present,

>

> I've seen it on the shelf about every time I've

> looked in the Recovery

> section at Borders in the last year, it's a

> different cover than the

> original edition I got when it first came out about

> 10 years ago.

>

> >but your library may have it. That's where I saw

> it. Amazon has used

> copies for

> >sale cheap. It may be just what the doctor

> ordered. You don't appear to

> have the intense

> >and explosive rage that many here have,

>

> You should tell her to unsubscribe before she

> catches it

>

> > but seem, rather, to have simply outgrown the

> >program. This book is directed at such people who

> have reached the point

> where it is time

> >to move on.

>

> I (and I would think many others here) feel " The

> Real 13th Step "

> doesn't go nearly far enough. For those who want to

> continue to work

> (or " take " , as an old sponsor would correct people)

> the 12 steps, this

> book has value in reinterpreting them to something

> more 'liberal' than

> is found in AA. But I reject the 12 steps as " a way

> of life. "

> In AA I once said how when people outside AA mess

> up, they just say

> " oops I'm sorry " or some such, they don't go

> analyzing it and try to

> figure out which step(s) apply [all of them] before

> figuring out what

> to do or say...I don't think anyone got it. They

> believed themselves

> to be totally incompetent to do anything without

> doing the steps.

>

> There is also " Many Roads, One Journey " by

> Charlotte Kasl,

> I found it much more open to many other ideas

> (though there are some

> 'new age' ideas in it that I don't agree with).

> And someone mentioned the Women For Sobriety

> website - I saw it years

> ago, it struck me as sort of like Al-Anon, with its

> copyrights and

> qualifications to be a WFS meeting leader or

> whatever they're called,

> it seemed almost as anal-retentive as the average

> 12-step group.

>

> Actually, I now give a lot more credence to the

> " Recovery Group

> Disorder " than I did years ago when I first heard of

> it - I was on the

> SOS list and Dave (I think it was) posted something

> like " all recovery

> groups will be declared obsolete " on January 1st (of

> what year, I

> forget - 97, 98, 99?).

> I don't want to " work a program. " I just want to

> live my life.

>

> ----------

> http://listen.to/benbradley

>

__________________________________________________

October 6, 2001

don't mean to be sexist, Ben, but I do think women

have been (are?) treated differently and tend to see

things differently (because of nature or nuture?) as a

generality.

--- Ben Bradley benbradley@...> wrote:

> At 10:15 PM 10/5/01 -0400, wrote:

> >Hello, Cyndi...It's almost 10 PM and I'm pretty

> tired right now. I just

> quit The Job From

> >Hell today

>

> Congratulations!

>

> >and am once again among The Unemployed, and I'm

> just too pooped to say

> anything

> >intelligent right now.

> >

> >But I do want to address things you've written.

> " But I've had problems

> with the way the

> >steps

> >don't deal with a woman's

> perspective... ...But, I have always beat

> myself up and

> >looking at my

> >defects doesn't help my self esteem. " Your words

> ring a bell here, and

> I'd like to

> >comment and offer my support.

>

> I so much want to say the " woman's perspective "

> thing is sexist. I don't

> see it as exclusively a woman's thing (even though

> Kasl also writes about

> this in the book I mention and recommend below),

> it's about treating

> people with respect and as if they had feelings

> (because sometimes they do,

> regardless of gender). AA just does not do this.

> But that's just my little rant...

>

> >A book: The Real Thirteenth Step : Discovering

> Confidence, Self-Reliance,

> and Autonomy

> >Beyond the 12-Step Programs, by Ph.D., Tina

> Tessina. It appears to be out

> of print at

> >present,

>

> I've seen it on the shelf about every time I've

> looked in the Recovery

> section at Borders in the last year, it's a

> different cover than the

> original edition I got when it first came out about

> 10 years ago.

>

> >but your library may have it. That's where I saw

> it. Amazon has used

> copies for

> >sale cheap. It may be just what the doctor

> ordered. You don't appear to

> have the intense

> >and explosive rage that many here have,

>

> You should tell her to unsubscribe before she

> catches it

>

> > but seem, rather, to have simply outgrown the

> >program. This book is directed at such people who

> have reached the point

> where it is time

> >to move on.

>

> I (and I would think many others here) feel " The

> Real 13th Step "

> doesn't go nearly far enough. For those who want to

> continue to work

> (or " take " , as an old sponsor would correct people)

> the 12 steps, this

> book has value in reinterpreting them to something

> more 'liberal' than

> is found in AA. But I reject the 12 steps as " a way

> of life. "

> In AA I once said how when people outside AA mess

> up, they just say

> " oops I'm sorry " or some such, they don't go

> analyzing it and try to

> figure out which step(s) apply [all of them] before

> figuring out what

> to do or say...I don't think anyone got it. They

> believed themselves

> to be totally incompetent to do anything without

> doing the steps.

>

> There is also " Many Roads, One Journey " by

> Charlotte Kasl,

> I found it much more open to many other ideas

> (though there are some

> 'new age' ideas in it that I don't agree with).

> And someone mentioned the Women For Sobriety

> website - I saw it years

> ago, it struck me as sort of like Al-Anon, with its

> copyrights and

> qualifications to be a WFS meeting leader or

> whatever they're called,

> it seemed almost as anal-retentive as the average

> 12-step group.

>

> Actually, I now give a lot more credence to the

> " Recovery Group

> Disorder " than I did years ago when I first heard of

> it - I was on the

> SOS list and Dave (I think it was) posted something

> like " all recovery

> groups will be declared obsolete " on January 1st (of

> what year, I

> forget - 97, 98, 99?).

> I don't want to " work a program. " I just want to

> live my life.

>

> ----------

> http://listen.to/benbradley

>

__________________________________________________

October 6, 2001

Drink and die. Don't drink and die.

At least you have a choice.

We are all gonna die, it's a natural thing.

Re: (unknown)

> thanks for replying, I, too, am afraid that if I don't

> continue to go to AA, I will drink and die. It scares

> the shit out of me. I realize that the fear and guilt

> were what turned me off of religion too, but it was

> easier for me to see with religion. I am 38 and have

> battled with depression for years and have been on

> Prozac for quite a while. In fact, I just got back

> from the hospital where my cousin was just admitted

> for schizophrenia. thanks again for your input, Cyndi

> --- Tomboy tomboy@...> wrote:

> > Just go slowly, it is a process. A little about

> > me...I am 43 years old and

> > have been indoctrinated in the 12 step program for

> > the past 30 years, first

> > Alateen and then AA. So I don't know any other way

> > of life than the steps.

> > A month ago , someone on another list that I belong

> > to, slagged AA. Of

> > course I got my back up and the war was on but I

> > thought that I would

> > investigate what she had to say , so at the very

> > least I could have an

> > intelligent conversation. Once I started reading I

> > couldn't stop. I read

> > and read and read all the deprogramming stuff on the

> > net and have now

> > settled down into books.

> > The hardest part for me coming out of it all, is the

> > belief that if I don't

> > go to AA I will drink and I will die. This is a

> > really deep belief I have

> > and it has been playing games with my head. Actually

> > though today was the

> > first time that I wasn't preoccupied with that

> > thought, so there is progress.

> > The best thing so far is the incredible weight that

> > has lifted from my

> > shoulders. The realisation that there is nothing

> > wrong with me, I am not

> > any different that any of the " earth people " because

> > I am one, I am part of

> > the human race.

> > I am currently reading " How Alcoholics Anonymous

> > failed me " by nne

> > Gilliam. An excellent book and a great start to your

> > deprogramming.

> > For your spiritual growth, there are lots of books

> > and information on

> > spirituality available everywhere. I would suggest

> > that you don't get

> > involved in anything really seriously for a period

> > of time until you know

> > that you are totally free. I have given myself 6

> > months before I get

> > involved in anything else. I am acutely aware that I

> > have been brainwashed

> > and that I have been part of a cult and that it

> > would be an error to jump

> > into anything else right away, I am too vulnerable

> > and gullible right now.

> > So hang in there, sit back and relax and you will

> > hear some great stuff!

> >

> > kisses

> > Del

> >

> > At 05:27 PM 05/10/01 -0700, you wrote:

> > >Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night.

> > I

> > >am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> > >will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been

> > going

> > >to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> > >couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> > >difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> > >calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time

> > since

> > >I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety

> > at a

> > >meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't

> > been

> > >going and working the program. I do feel God

> > wanted

> > >me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had

> > to

> > >break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> > >myself. But I've had problems with the way the

> > steps

> > >don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> > >lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty

> > flexible

> > >and open to discussions about life, not just

> > drinking.

> > > But, I have always beat myself up and looking at

> > my

> > >defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that

> > I

> > >haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> > >guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> > >think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of

> > isolating

> > >myself and I don't want to stop growing

> > spiritually.

> > >I am not a religious person so that narrows it

> > down.

> > >Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> > >perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks,

> > Cyndi

> > >

> > >__________________________________________________

> > >

October 6, 2001

Drink and die. Don't drink and die.

At least you have a choice.

We are all gonna die, it's a natural thing.

Re: (unknown)

> thanks for replying, I, too, am afraid that if I don't

> continue to go to AA, I will drink and die. It scares

> the shit out of me. I realize that the fear and guilt

> were what turned me off of religion too, but it was

> easier for me to see with religion. I am 38 and have

> battled with depression for years and have been on

> Prozac for quite a while. In fact, I just got back

> from the hospital where my cousin was just admitted

> for schizophrenia. thanks again for your input, Cyndi

> --- Tomboy tomboy@...> wrote:

> > Just go slowly, it is a process. A little about

> > me...I am 43 years old and

> > have been indoctrinated in the 12 step program for

> > the past 30 years, first

> > Alateen and then AA. So I don't know any other way

> > of life than the steps.

> > A month ago , someone on another list that I belong

> > to, slagged AA. Of

> > course I got my back up and the war was on but I

> > thought that I would

> > investigate what she had to say , so at the very

> > least I could have an

> > intelligent conversation. Once I started reading I

> > couldn't stop. I read

> > and read and read all the deprogramming stuff on the

> > net and have now

> > settled down into books.

> > The hardest part for me coming out of it all, is the

> > belief that if I don't

> > go to AA I will drink and I will die. This is a

> > really deep belief I have

> > and it has been playing games with my head. Actually

> > though today was the

> > first time that I wasn't preoccupied with that

> > thought, so there is progress.

> > The best thing so far is the incredible weight that

> > has lifted from my

> > shoulders. The realisation that there is nothing

> > wrong with me, I am not

> > any different that any of the " earth people " because

> > I am one, I am part of

> > the human race.

> > I am currently reading " How Alcoholics Anonymous

> > failed me " by nne

> > Gilliam. An excellent book and a great start to your

> > deprogramming.

> > For your spiritual growth, there are lots of books

> > and information on

> > spirituality available everywhere. I would suggest

> > that you don't get

> > involved in anything really seriously for a period

> > of time until you know

> > that you are totally free. I have given myself 6

> > months before I get

> > involved in anything else. I am acutely aware that I

> > have been brainwashed

> > and that I have been part of a cult and that it

> > would be an error to jump

> > into anything else right away, I am too vulnerable

> > and gullible right now.

> > So hang in there, sit back and relax and you will

> > hear some great stuff!

> >

> > kisses

> > Del

> >

> > At 05:27 PM 05/10/01 -0700, you wrote:

> > >Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night.

> > I

> > >am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> > >will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been

> > going

> > >to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> > >couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> > >difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> > >calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time

> > since

> > >I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety

> > at a

> > >meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't

> > been

> > >going and working the program. I do feel God

> > wanted

> > >me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had

> > to

> > >break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> > >myself. But I've had problems with the way the

> > steps

> > >don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> > >lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty

> > flexible

> > >and open to discussions about life, not just

> > drinking.

> > > But, I have always beat myself up and looking at

> > my

> > >defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that

> > I

> > >haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> > >guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> > >think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of

> > isolating

> > >myself and I don't want to stop growing

> > spiritually.

> > >I am not a religious person so that narrows it

> > down.

> > >Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> > >perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks,

> > Cyndi

> > >

> > >__________________________________________________

> > >

October 6, 2001

Drink and die. Don't drink and die.

At least you have a choice.

We are all gonna die, it's a natural thing.

Re: (unknown)

> thanks for replying, I, too, am afraid that if I don't

> continue to go to AA, I will drink and die. It scares

> the shit out of me. I realize that the fear and guilt

> were what turned me off of religion too, but it was

> easier for me to see with religion. I am 38 and have

> battled with depression for years and have been on

> Prozac for quite a while. In fact, I just got back

> from the hospital where my cousin was just admitted

> for schizophrenia. thanks again for your input, Cyndi

> --- Tomboy tomboy@...> wrote:

> > Just go slowly, it is a process. A little about

> > me...I am 43 years old and

> > have been indoctrinated in the 12 step program for

> > the past 30 years, first

> > Alateen and then AA. So I don't know any other way

> > of life than the steps.

> > A month ago , someone on another list that I belong

> > to, slagged AA. Of

> > course I got my back up and the war was on but I

> > thought that I would

> > investigate what she had to say , so at the very

> > least I could have an

> > intelligent conversation. Once I started reading I

> > couldn't stop. I read

> > and read and read all the deprogramming stuff on the

> > net and have now

> > settled down into books.

> > The hardest part for me coming out of it all, is the

> > belief that if I don't

> > go to AA I will drink and I will die. This is a

> > really deep belief I have

> > and it has been playing games with my head. Actually

> > though today was the

> > first time that I wasn't preoccupied with that

> > thought, so there is progress.

> > The best thing so far is the incredible weight that

> > has lifted from my

> > shoulders. The realisation that there is nothing

> > wrong with me, I am not

> > any different that any of the " earth people " because

> > I am one, I am part of

> > the human race.

> > I am currently reading " How Alcoholics Anonymous

> > failed me " by nne

> > Gilliam. An excellent book and a great start to your

> > deprogramming.

> > For your spiritual growth, there are lots of books

> > and information on

> > spirituality available everywhere. I would suggest

> > that you don't get

> > involved in anything really seriously for a period

> > of time until you know

> > that you are totally free. I have given myself 6

> > months before I get

> > involved in anything else. I am acutely aware that I

> > have been brainwashed

> > and that I have been part of a cult and that it

> > would be an error to jump

> > into anything else right away, I am too vulnerable

> > and gullible right now.

> > So hang in there, sit back and relax and you will

> > hear some great stuff!

> >

> > kisses

> > Del

> >

> > At 05:27 PM 05/10/01 -0700, you wrote:

> > >Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night.

> > I

> > >am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> > >will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been

> > going

> > >to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> > >couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> > >difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> > >calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time

> > since

> > >I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety

> > at a

> > >meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't

> > been

> > >going and working the program. I do feel God

> > wanted

> > >me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had

> > to

> > >break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> > >myself. But I've had problems with the way the

> > steps

> > >don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> > >lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty

> > flexible

> > >and open to discussions about life, not just

> > drinking.

> > > But, I have always beat myself up and looking at

> > my

> > >defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that

> > I

> > >haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> > >guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> > >think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of

> > isolating

> > >myself and I don't want to stop growing

> > spiritually.

> > >I am not a religious person so that narrows it

> > down.

> > >Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> > >perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks,

> > Cyndi

> > >

> > >__________________________________________________

> > >

October 6, 2001

At 05:26 AM 10/6/01 -0000, Dave Marcoot wrote:

>

>i was on SOS list around that time, dont recall posting it. its that

>trimpley's piece about " canceling " the treatment industry?

Yes, that was it. I think it was also posted on the now-defunct X-AA

list. Do you know who posted that?

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

October 6, 2001

At 05:26 AM 10/6/01 -0000, Dave Marcoot wrote:

>

>i was on SOS list around that time, dont recall posting it. its that

>trimpley's piece about " canceling " the treatment industry?

Yes, that was it. I think it was also posted on the now-defunct X-AA

list. Do you know who posted that?

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

October 6, 2001

At 05:26 AM 10/6/01 -0000, Dave Marcoot wrote:

>

>i was on SOS list around that time, dont recall posting it. its that

>trimpley's piece about " canceling " the treatment industry?

Yes, that was it. I think it was also posted on the now-defunct X-AA

list. Do you know who posted that?

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

October 6, 2001

At 10:30 PM 10/5/01 -0500, Duaine Met wrote:

>>>I don't want to " work a program. " I just want to live my life.

>

>Hi Ben:

>

>Duaine M here:

>

>Thats the reason I became a part of SOS.

>

>I was sober and happy before there was a SOS. I didn't need a support

group at that time and don't need one now.

>

>I do enjoy hearing success stories of how people live life Alcohol/Drug

free. I enjoy being with people who think. I enjoy being with people who

know the person next to them is going to be different from them, different

in how they live their sober life.

>

>I came out of AA with people telling me that I would never stay sober the

way I was doing it. That's something I never heard in SOS. There are no

sponsors. No one telling any one what to do. Celebrating our differences

is what it's all about.

>

>Wow I can't beleave I went on so much. I only meant to say thats the

reason I became a part of SOS.

>

>I am thinking about deleating this post. I don't know if it's approbate.

No, this is totally appropriate. Anything you do instead of going to

AA meetings and following the AA program is on topic here.

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

October 6, 2001

At 10:30 PM 10/5/01 -0500, Duaine Met wrote:

>>>I don't want to " work a program. " I just want to live my life.

>

>Hi Ben:

>

>Duaine M here:

>

>Thats the reason I became a part of SOS.

>

>I was sober and happy before there was a SOS. I didn't need a support

group at that time and don't need one now.

>

>I do enjoy hearing success stories of how people live life Alcohol/Drug

free. I enjoy being with people who think. I enjoy being with people who

know the person next to them is going to be different from them, different

in how they live their sober life.

>

>I came out of AA with people telling me that I would never stay sober the

way I was doing it. That's something I never heard in SOS. There are no

sponsors. No one telling any one what to do. Celebrating our differences

is what it's all about.

>

>Wow I can't beleave I went on so much. I only meant to say thats the

reason I became a part of SOS.

>

>I am thinking about deleating this post. I don't know if it's approbate.

No, this is totally appropriate. Anything you do instead of going to

AA meetings and following the AA program is on topic here.

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

October 6, 2001

At 10:30 PM 10/5/01 -0500, Duaine Met wrote:

>>>I don't want to " work a program. " I just want to live my life.

>

>Hi Ben:

>

>Duaine M here:

>

>Thats the reason I became a part of SOS.

>

>I was sober and happy before there was a SOS. I didn't need a support

group at that time and don't need one now.

>

>I do enjoy hearing success stories of how people live life Alcohol/Drug

free. I enjoy being with people who think. I enjoy being with people who

know the person next to them is going to be different from them, different

in how they live their sober life.

>

>I came out of AA with people telling me that I would never stay sober the

way I was doing it. That's something I never heard in SOS. There are no

sponsors. No one telling any one what to do. Celebrating our differences

is what it's all about.

>

>Wow I can't beleave I went on so much. I only meant to say thats the

reason I became a part of SOS.

>

>I am thinking about deleating this post. I don't know if it's approbate.

No, this is totally appropriate. Anything you do instead of going to

AA meetings and following the AA program is on topic here.

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

October 6, 2001

nope, its been so long. i was on the old xa list too, you told me

about that one. all i remember about that xa list was getting into

arguments with some AA apologist named Drew.

> >

> >i was on SOS list around that time, dont recall posting it. its

that

> >trimpley's piece about " canceling " the treatment industry?

>

> Yes, that was it. I think it was also posted on the now-defunct

X-AA

> list. Do you know who posted that?

>

> ----------

> http://listen.to/benbradley

October 6, 2001

nope, its been so long. i was on the old xa list too, you told me

about that one. all i remember about that xa list was getting into

arguments with some AA apologist named Drew.

> >

> >i was on SOS list around that time, dont recall posting it. its

that

> >trimpley's piece about " canceling " the treatment industry?

>

> Yes, that was it. I think it was also posted on the now-defunct

X-AA

> list. Do you know who posted that?

>

> ----------

> http://listen.to/benbradley

October 6, 2001

nope, its been so long. i was on the old xa list too, you told me

about that one. all i remember about that xa list was getting into

arguments with some AA apologist named Drew.

> >

> >i was on SOS list around that time, dont recall posting it. its

that

> >trimpley's piece about " canceling " the treatment industry?

>

> Yes, that was it. I think it was also posted on the now-defunct

X-AA

> list. Do you know who posted that?

>

> ----------

> http://listen.to/benbradley

October 6, 2001

Cyndi,

My opinion on the step-group's segregatory practices (separate Men's and

Women's meetings, same-sex " sponsorship " , etc.) is that it is a product of a

juvenile, knee-jerk perspective of life, not unlike the separation between

boys and girls in elementary school that dissipates by adolescence. Part of

this immaturity is irresponsibility, i.e. the 13th Step. As you may know,

Bill was supervised by AA members (after he got sober, of course) and

his sexual compulsions were apparently magnified in his " early sobriety " . If

the assumption is that men are going to rape women (with non-sex offenders

being the exception,) it makes sense to separate them whenever possible, but

this obviously is not the real world.

Overall I think the gender focus of the recovery movement has been pretty

detrimental, particularly with Al-Anon and CODA. I don't think that families

with an addicted member necessarily have communication difficulties requiring

counseling, but when someone joins Al-Anon or any codependency group, a

common problem is that communication halts as the family member learns how

destructive and fruitless it has been, in addition to being shocked at how

" sick " the drunken individual really is (according to the group.)

Outside of the 12-step movement, resources are scant in the addictions field,

as they probably should be when it involves public funding. But information

is free, vital, and the availability does not meet the demand. Since I don't

think addiction and recovery are relevant to every aspect of a person's life,

my opinion is that the continued focus on women's issues is detrimental, as

it distracts from the obvious trans-gender issue of addiction, and the focus

on it inevitably leads to the group cohesion that steppism introduced.

Particularly, the website " aadeprogramming " could be of a tremendous service

to people, I think, but lately it seems to be directed primarily towards

women who are turned off by the purportedly-chauvanistic nature of AA, or who

have been seriously harmed by the 13th step. I'm certainly not saying that

women who have been victimized by this are whining; I'm sure it's a horrible

experience to suffer through. But AA again is not a respresentation of

society as a whole, where everyone is aware of the problems associated with

rape and sexual abuse. In AA, these are issues that aren't supposed to be

discussed-and apparently weren't until the infamous memo of last year issued

by the WSO. When there isn't widespread awareness of the problem,

accountability also stagnates, and the women become perpetual victims. It

would make more sense to expect AA as a whole to address this ugly issue, or

consider it an obvious sign of the sociopathy of step groups and not simply a

gender issue.

Nick

October 6, 2001