(unknown)

[Guest guest]

Hi

I know it cant be the " ADDULT " list at SJU you refer to because that

along with ADD_MED and every other SJU list has been downed by the

events. Ironically, the ADDULT policy is that ADDD ppl arent good at

sticking to topics and absolutely nothing is off topic there - the

only offtopic post is to complain of another one being offtopic (the

FAQ actually says this). They posts hundreds of mails every day -

they must be withdrawing badly!

As I said to Mack, I'm not suggesting ppl should discuss the

*politics* of it, particularly because inevitably some will call for

extremely violent revenge while others will beg for peace at any cost

and the whole thing produce chaos. The point is that an immense

tragedy has befallen not only the US but the whole free world and in

fact humanity, since those explosions, like the shot that started WW1,

will echo around the world - and precisely as he says, many of the

immediate concerns of all of us who use email forums, become almost

petty at least until we have somehow come to terms with it and made

our world at least as more or less safe as it was beforehand.

> Pete wrote, " Those also subscribed to 12-step coercion watch will

have seen a

> member complain that there was no mention of Tuesday's outrages on

> that list.

>

> By golly...I am on a list for people with Adult ADD, and there were

some posts about the

> terrorist attack and people's responses to it. Would you believe

the moderator announced

> that it was off-topic and that such posts should not be made on that

list?

>

> Yeah, I can understand that lots of off-topic posts can be a pain in

the ass for people

> who have subbed to read information about a very specific topic -

but this incident is

> just so very intense, so very important, having such great impact on

so many people, I'd

> think an exception should have been made.

>

> I'm glad people here have the space to talk about what happened.

>

> Cheers,

>

> nz

[Guest guest]

Hi

I know it cant be the " ADDULT " list at SJU you refer to because that

along with ADD_MED and every other SJU list has been downed by the

events. Ironically, the ADDULT policy is that ADDD ppl arent good at

sticking to topics and absolutely nothing is off topic there - the

only offtopic post is to complain of another one being offtopic (the

FAQ actually says this). They posts hundreds of mails every day -

they must be withdrawing badly!

As I said to Mack, I'm not suggesting ppl should discuss the

*politics* of it, particularly because inevitably some will call for

extremely violent revenge while others will beg for peace at any cost

and the whole thing produce chaos. The point is that an immense

tragedy has befallen not only the US but the whole free world and in

fact humanity, since those explosions, like the shot that started WW1,

will echo around the world - and precisely as he says, many of the

immediate concerns of all of us who use email forums, become almost

petty at least until we have somehow come to terms with it and made

our world at least as more or less safe as it was beforehand.

> Pete wrote, " Those also subscribed to 12-step coercion watch will

have seen a

> member complain that there was no mention of Tuesday's outrages on

> that list.

>

> By golly...I am on a list for people with Adult ADD, and there were

some posts about the

> terrorist attack and people's responses to it. Would you believe

the moderator announced

> that it was off-topic and that such posts should not be made on that

list?

>

> Yeah, I can understand that lots of off-topic posts can be a pain in

the ass for people

> who have subbed to read information about a very specific topic -

but this incident is

> just so very intense, so very important, having such great impact on

so many people, I'd

> think an exception should have been made.

>

> I'm glad people here have the space to talk about what happened.

>

> Cheers,

>

> nz

[Guest guest]

Hi

I know it cant be the " ADDULT " list at SJU you refer to because that

along with ADD_MED and every other SJU list has been downed by the

events. Ironically, the ADDULT policy is that ADDD ppl arent good at

sticking to topics and absolutely nothing is off topic there - the

only offtopic post is to complain of another one being offtopic (the

FAQ actually says this). They posts hundreds of mails every day -

they must be withdrawing badly!

As I said to Mack, I'm not suggesting ppl should discuss the

*politics* of it, particularly because inevitably some will call for

extremely violent revenge while others will beg for peace at any cost

and the whole thing produce chaos. The point is that an immense

tragedy has befallen not only the US but the whole free world and in

fact humanity, since those explosions, like the shot that started WW1,

will echo around the world - and precisely as he says, many of the

immediate concerns of all of us who use email forums, become almost

petty at least until we have somehow come to terms with it and made

our world at least as more or less safe as it was beforehand.

> Pete wrote, " Those also subscribed to 12-step coercion watch will

have seen a

> member complain that there was no mention of Tuesday's outrages on

> that list.

>

> By golly...I am on a list for people with Adult ADD, and there were

some posts about the

> terrorist attack and people's responses to it. Would you believe

the moderator announced

> that it was off-topic and that such posts should not be made on that

list?

>

> Yeah, I can understand that lots of off-topic posts can be a pain in

the ass for people

> who have subbed to read information about a very specific topic -

but this incident is

> just so very intense, so very important, having such great impact on

so many people, I'd

> think an exception should have been made.

>

> I'm glad people here have the space to talk about what happened.

>

> Cheers,

>

> nz

[Guest guest]

,

You might want to check out " The Real AA. " It is on line in its

entirety at:

http://www.aakills.com/books/realaa/mr_index.htm

It certainly contains a perspective that you won't hear at meetings.

Ken

[Guest guest]

,

You might want to check out " The Real AA. " It is on line in its

entirety at:

http://www.aakills.com/books/realaa/mr_index.htm

It certainly contains a perspective that you won't hear at meetings.

Ken

[Guest guest]

,

You might want to check out " The Real AA. " It is on line in its

entirety at:

http://www.aakills.com/books/realaa/mr_index.htm

It certainly contains a perspective that you won't hear at meetings.

Ken

[Guest guest]

Hi Cyndi: Duaine M here. If you are looking for another support group for women there is Women for Sobriety at http://www.womenforsobriety.org or SOS Women at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOSWomen (unknown) Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night. Iam looking for a different point of view. Sunday Iwill have 10 years of sobriety and I have been goingto meetings for most of those ten years. The lastcouple of years I've been finding it increasinglydifficult to make myself go to meetings and I quitcalling my sponsor too. Now for the first time sinceI've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety at ameeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't beengoing and working the program. I do feel God wantedme to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had tobreak down some defenses in order to be honest withmyself. But I've had problems with the way the stepsdon't deal with a woman's perspective. I have beenlucky enough to find meetings that are pretty flexibleand open to discussions about life, not just drinking.But, I have always beat myself up and looking at mydefects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that Ihaven't been going to meetings, I've been feelingguilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And Ithink the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of isolatingmyself and I don't want to stop growing spiritually.I am not a religious person so that narrows it down.Don't do churches. But any suggestions andperspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks, Cyndi__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Cyndi: Duaine M here. If you are looking for another support group for women there is Women for Sobriety at http://www.womenforsobriety.org or SOS Women at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOSWomen (unknown) Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night. Iam looking for a different point of view. Sunday Iwill have 10 years of sobriety and I have been goingto meetings for most of those ten years. The lastcouple of years I've been finding it increasinglydifficult to make myself go to meetings and I quitcalling my sponsor too. Now for the first time sinceI've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety at ameeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't beengoing and working the program. I do feel God wantedme to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had tobreak down some defenses in order to be honest withmyself. But I've had problems with the way the stepsdon't deal with a woman's perspective. I have beenlucky enough to find meetings that are pretty flexibleand open to discussions about life, not just drinking.But, I have always beat myself up and looking at mydefects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that Ihaven't been going to meetings, I've been feelingguilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And Ithink the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of isolatingmyself and I don't want to stop growing spiritually.I am not a religious person so that narrows it down.Don't do churches. But any suggestions andperspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks, Cyndi__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Just go slowly, it is a process. A little about me...I am 43 years old

and have been indoctrinated in the 12 step program for the past 30 years,

first Alateen and then AA. So I don't know any other way of life than the

steps.

A month ago , someone on another list that I belong to, slagged AA. Of

course I got my back up and the war was on but I thought that I would

investigate what she had to say , so at the very least I could have an

intelligent conversation. Once I started reading I couldn't stop. I read

and read and read all the deprogramming stuff on the net and have now

settled down into books.

The hardest part for me coming out of it all, is the belief that if I

don't go to AA I will drink and I will die. This is a really deep belief

I have and it has been playing games with my head. Actually though today

was the first time that I wasn't preoccupied with that thought, so there

is progress.

The best thing so far is the incredible weight that has lifted from my

shoulders. The realisation that there is nothing wrong with me, I am not

any different that any of the " earth people " because I am one,

I am part of the human race.

I am currently reading " How Alcoholics Anonymous failed me " by

nne Gilliam. An excellent book and a great start to your

deprogramming.

For your spiritual growth, there are lots of books and information on

spirituality available everywhere. I would suggest that you don't get

involved in anything really seriously for a period of time until you know

that you are totally free. I have given myself 6 months before I get

involved in anything else. I am acutely aware that I have been

brainwashed and that I have been part of a cult and that it would be an

error to jump into anything else right away, I am too vulnerable and

gullible right now.

So hang in there, sit back and relax and you will hear some great

stuff!

kisses

Del

At 05:27 PM 05/10/01 -0700, you wrote:

Hi, I just found you guys after

surfing last night. I

am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been going

to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time since

I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety at a

meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't been

going and working the program. I do feel God wanted

me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had to

break down some defenses in order to be honest with

myself. But I've had problems with the way the steps

don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty flexible

and open to discussions about life, not just drinking.

But, I have always beat myself up and looking at my

defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that I

haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of isolating

myself and I don't want to stop growing spiritually.

I am not a religious person so that narrows it down.

Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks, Cyndi

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Just go slowly, it is a process. A little about me...I am 43 years old

and have been indoctrinated in the 12 step program for the past 30 years,

first Alateen and then AA. So I don't know any other way of life than the

steps.

A month ago , someone on another list that I belong to, slagged AA. Of

course I got my back up and the war was on but I thought that I would

investigate what she had to say , so at the very least I could have an

intelligent conversation. Once I started reading I couldn't stop. I read

and read and read all the deprogramming stuff on the net and have now

settled down into books.

The hardest part for me coming out of it all, is the belief that if I

don't go to AA I will drink and I will die. This is a really deep belief

I have and it has been playing games with my head. Actually though today

was the first time that I wasn't preoccupied with that thought, so there

is progress.

The best thing so far is the incredible weight that has lifted from my

shoulders. The realisation that there is nothing wrong with me, I am not

any different that any of the " earth people " because I am one,

I am part of the human race.

I am currently reading " How Alcoholics Anonymous failed me " by

nne Gilliam. An excellent book and a great start to your

deprogramming.

For your spiritual growth, there are lots of books and information on

spirituality available everywhere. I would suggest that you don't get

involved in anything really seriously for a period of time until you know

that you are totally free. I have given myself 6 months before I get

involved in anything else. I am acutely aware that I have been

brainwashed and that I have been part of a cult and that it would be an

error to jump into anything else right away, I am too vulnerable and

gullible right now.

So hang in there, sit back and relax and you will hear some great

stuff!

kisses

Del

At 05:27 PM 05/10/01 -0700, you wrote:

Hi, I just found you guys after

surfing last night. I

am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been going

to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time since

I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety at a

meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't been

going and working the program. I do feel God wanted

me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had to

break down some defenses in order to be honest with

myself. But I've had problems with the way the steps

don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty flexible

and open to discussions about life, not just drinking.

But, I have always beat myself up and looking at my

defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that I

haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of isolating

myself and I don't want to stop growing spiritually.

I am not a religious person so that narrows it down.

Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks, Cyndi

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Just go slowly, it is a process. A little about me...I am 43 years old

and have been indoctrinated in the 12 step program for the past 30 years,

first Alateen and then AA. So I don't know any other way of life than the

steps.

A month ago , someone on another list that I belong to, slagged AA. Of

course I got my back up and the war was on but I thought that I would

investigate what she had to say , so at the very least I could have an

intelligent conversation. Once I started reading I couldn't stop. I read

and read and read all the deprogramming stuff on the net and have now

settled down into books.

The hardest part for me coming out of it all, is the belief that if I

don't go to AA I will drink and I will die. This is a really deep belief

I have and it has been playing games with my head. Actually though today

was the first time that I wasn't preoccupied with that thought, so there

is progress.

The best thing so far is the incredible weight that has lifted from my

shoulders. The realisation that there is nothing wrong with me, I am not

any different that any of the " earth people " because I am one,

I am part of the human race.

I am currently reading " How Alcoholics Anonymous failed me " by

nne Gilliam. An excellent book and a great start to your

deprogramming.

For your spiritual growth, there are lots of books and information on

spirituality available everywhere. I would suggest that you don't get

involved in anything really seriously for a period of time until you know

that you are totally free. I have given myself 6 months before I get

involved in anything else. I am acutely aware that I have been

brainwashed and that I have been part of a cult and that it would be an

error to jump into anything else right away, I am too vulnerable and

gullible right now.

So hang in there, sit back and relax and you will hear some great

stuff!

kisses

Del

At 05:27 PM 05/10/01 -0700, you wrote:

Hi, I just found you guys after

surfing last night. I

am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been going

to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time since

I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety at a

meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't been

going and working the program. I do feel God wanted

me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had to

break down some defenses in order to be honest with

myself. But I've had problems with the way the steps

don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty flexible

and open to discussions about life, not just drinking.

But, I have always beat myself up and looking at my

defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that I

haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of isolating

myself and I don't want to stop growing spiritually.

I am not a religious person so that narrows it down.

Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks, Cyndi

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hello, Cyndi...It's almost 10 PM and I'm pretty tired right now. I just quit

The Job From

Hell today and am once again among The Unemployed, and I'm just too pooped to

say anything

intelligent right now.

But I do want to address things you've written. " But I've had problems with the

way the

steps

don't deal with a woman's perspective... ...But, I have always beat myself

up and

looking at my

defects doesn't help my self esteem. " Your words ring a bell here, and I'd like

to

comment and offer my support.

" I do feel God wanted

me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. "

You're going to find a lot of rage here, I should warn you. Don't be surprised

when some

of the people here really explode in serious anger. And you're going to find

people who

will steadfastly deny that God had anything to do with it (me among them,

although I am

polite and gentle about it). There are people who have really gotten hurt and

are plenty

distressed and furious about it.

At the same time you will find that there are some of us who do not share the

intense

rage. I am not angry. I just drifted away after around 12 years, and I have

lots and

lots of happy memories, while at the same time realizing that I was in a cult,

or at least

in a cult-like situation and cannot go back. I moved on and am too far gone,

and too much

has changed. I am able to remember the happy times while at the same time

recognizing the

destructive and damaging things the program does. I am dealing with the damage

the

program did to me, while retaining the happy memories.

A book: The Real Thirteenth Step : Discovering Confidence, Self-Reliance, and

Autonomy

Beyond the 12-Step Programs, by Ph.D., Tina Tessina. It appears to be out of

print at

present, but your library may have it. That's where I saw it. Amazon has used

copies for

sale cheap. It may be just what the doctor ordered. You don't appear to have

the intense

and explosive rage that many here have, but seem, rather, to have simply

outgrown the

program. This book is directed at such people who have reached the point where

it is time

to move on.

Oh shucks, bedtime now. I'm burned out.

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

Hello, Cyndi...It's almost 10 PM and I'm pretty tired right now. I just quit

The Job From

Hell today and am once again among The Unemployed, and I'm just too pooped to

say anything

intelligent right now.

But I do want to address things you've written. " But I've had problems with the

way the

steps

don't deal with a woman's perspective... ...But, I have always beat myself

up and

looking at my

defects doesn't help my self esteem. " Your words ring a bell here, and I'd like

to

comment and offer my support.

" I do feel God wanted

me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. "

You're going to find a lot of rage here, I should warn you. Don't be surprised

when some

of the people here really explode in serious anger. And you're going to find

people who

will steadfastly deny that God had anything to do with it (me among them,

although I am

polite and gentle about it). There are people who have really gotten hurt and

are plenty

distressed and furious about it.

At the same time you will find that there are some of us who do not share the

intense

rage. I am not angry. I just drifted away after around 12 years, and I have

lots and

lots of happy memories, while at the same time realizing that I was in a cult,

or at least

in a cult-like situation and cannot go back. I moved on and am too far gone,

and too much

has changed. I am able to remember the happy times while at the same time

recognizing the

destructive and damaging things the program does. I am dealing with the damage

the

program did to me, while retaining the happy memories.

A book: The Real Thirteenth Step : Discovering Confidence, Self-Reliance, and

Autonomy

Beyond the 12-Step Programs, by Ph.D., Tina Tessina. It appears to be out of

print at

present, but your library may have it. That's where I saw it. Amazon has used

copies for

sale cheap. It may be just what the doctor ordered. You don't appear to have

the intense

and explosive rage that many here have, but seem, rather, to have simply

outgrown the

program. This book is directed at such people who have reached the point where

it is time

to move on.

Oh shucks, bedtime now. I'm burned out.

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

Hello, Cyndi...It's almost 10 PM and I'm pretty tired right now. I just quit

The Job From

Hell today and am once again among The Unemployed, and I'm just too pooped to

say anything

intelligent right now.

But I do want to address things you've written. " But I've had problems with the

way the

steps

don't deal with a woman's perspective... ...But, I have always beat myself

up and

looking at my

defects doesn't help my self esteem. " Your words ring a bell here, and I'd like

to

comment and offer my support.

" I do feel God wanted

me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. "

You're going to find a lot of rage here, I should warn you. Don't be surprised

when some

of the people here really explode in serious anger. And you're going to find

people who

will steadfastly deny that God had anything to do with it (me among them,

although I am

polite and gentle about it). There are people who have really gotten hurt and

are plenty

distressed and furious about it.

At the same time you will find that there are some of us who do not share the

intense

rage. I am not angry. I just drifted away after around 12 years, and I have

lots and

lots of happy memories, while at the same time realizing that I was in a cult,

or at least

in a cult-like situation and cannot go back. I moved on and am too far gone,

and too much

has changed. I am able to remember the happy times while at the same time

recognizing the

destructive and damaging things the program does. I am dealing with the damage

the

program did to me, while retaining the happy memories.

A book: The Real Thirteenth Step : Discovering Confidence, Self-Reliance, and

Autonomy

Beyond the 12-Step Programs, by Ph.D., Tina Tessina. It appears to be out of

print at

present, but your library may have it. That's where I saw it. Amazon has used

copies for

sale cheap. It may be just what the doctor ordered. You don't appear to have

the intense

and explosive rage that many here have, but seem, rather, to have simply

outgrown the

program. This book is directed at such people who have reached the point where

it is time

to move on.

Oh shucks, bedtime now. I'm burned out.

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

At 10:15 PM 10/5/01 -0400, wrote:

>Hello, Cyndi...It's almost 10 PM and I'm pretty tired right now. I just

quit The Job From

>Hell today

Congratulations!

>and am once again among The Unemployed, and I'm just too pooped to say

anything

>intelligent right now.

>

>But I do want to address things you've written. " But I've had problems

with the way the

>steps

>don't deal with a woman's perspective... ...But, I have always beat

myself up and

>looking at my

>defects doesn't help my self esteem. " Your words ring a bell here, and

I'd like to

>comment and offer my support.

I so much want to say the " woman's perspective " thing is sexist. I don't

see it as exclusively a woman's thing (even though Kasl also writes about

this in the book I mention and recommend below), it's about treating

people with respect and as if they had feelings (because sometimes they do,

regardless of gender). AA just does not do this.

But that's just my little rant...

>A book: The Real Thirteenth Step : Discovering Confidence, Self-Reliance,

and Autonomy

>Beyond the 12-Step Programs, by Ph.D., Tina Tessina. It appears to be out

of print at

>present,

I've seen it on the shelf about every time I've looked in the Recovery

section at Borders in the last year, it's a different cover than the

original edition I got when it first came out about 10 years ago.

>but your library may have it. That's where I saw it. Amazon has used

copies for

>sale cheap. It may be just what the doctor ordered. You don't appear to

have the intense

>and explosive rage that many here have,

You should tell her to unsubscribe before she catches it

> but seem, rather, to have simply outgrown the

>program. This book is directed at such people who have reached the point

where it is time

>to move on.

I (and I would think many others here) feel " The Real 13th Step "

doesn't go nearly far enough. For those who want to continue to work

(or " take " , as an old sponsor would correct people) the 12 steps, this

book has value in reinterpreting them to something more 'liberal' than

is found in AA. But I reject the 12 steps as " a way of life. "

In AA I once said how when people outside AA mess up, they just say

" oops I'm sorry " or some such, they don't go analyzing it and try to

figure out which step(s) apply [all of them] before figuring out what

to do or say...I don't think anyone got it. They believed themselves

to be totally incompetent to do anything without doing the steps.

There is also " Many Roads, One Journey " by Charlotte Kasl,

I found it much more open to many other ideas (though there are some

'new age' ideas in it that I don't agree with).

And someone mentioned the Women For Sobriety website - I saw it years

ago, it struck me as sort of like Al-Anon, with its copyrights and

qualifications to be a WFS meeting leader or whatever they're called,

it seemed almost as anal-retentive as the average 12-step group.

Actually, I now give a lot more credence to the " Recovery Group

Disorder " than I did years ago when I first heard of it - I was on the

SOS list and Dave (I think it was) posted something like " all recovery

groups will be declared obsolete " on January 1st (of what year, I

forget - 97, 98, 99?).

I don't want to " work a program. " I just want to live my life.

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 10:15 PM 10/5/01 -0400, wrote:

>Hello, Cyndi...It's almost 10 PM and I'm pretty tired right now. I just

quit The Job From

>Hell today

Congratulations!

>and am once again among The Unemployed, and I'm just too pooped to say

anything

>intelligent right now.

>

>But I do want to address things you've written. " But I've had problems

with the way the

>steps

>don't deal with a woman's perspective... ...But, I have always beat

myself up and

>looking at my

>defects doesn't help my self esteem. " Your words ring a bell here, and

I'd like to

>comment and offer my support.

I so much want to say the " woman's perspective " thing is sexist. I don't

see it as exclusively a woman's thing (even though Kasl also writes about

this in the book I mention and recommend below), it's about treating

people with respect and as if they had feelings (because sometimes they do,

regardless of gender). AA just does not do this.

But that's just my little rant...

>A book: The Real Thirteenth Step : Discovering Confidence, Self-Reliance,

and Autonomy

>Beyond the 12-Step Programs, by Ph.D., Tina Tessina. It appears to be out

of print at

>present,

I've seen it on the shelf about every time I've looked in the Recovery

section at Borders in the last year, it's a different cover than the

original edition I got when it first came out about 10 years ago.

>but your library may have it. That's where I saw it. Amazon has used

copies for

>sale cheap. It may be just what the doctor ordered. You don't appear to

have the intense

>and explosive rage that many here have,

You should tell her to unsubscribe before she catches it

> but seem, rather, to have simply outgrown the

>program. This book is directed at such people who have reached the point

where it is time

>to move on.

I (and I would think many others here) feel " The Real 13th Step "

doesn't go nearly far enough. For those who want to continue to work

(or " take " , as an old sponsor would correct people) the 12 steps, this

book has value in reinterpreting them to something more 'liberal' than

is found in AA. But I reject the 12 steps as " a way of life. "

In AA I once said how when people outside AA mess up, they just say

" oops I'm sorry " or some such, they don't go analyzing it and try to

figure out which step(s) apply [all of them] before figuring out what

to do or say...I don't think anyone got it. They believed themselves

to be totally incompetent to do anything without doing the steps.

There is also " Many Roads, One Journey " by Charlotte Kasl,

I found it much more open to many other ideas (though there are some

'new age' ideas in it that I don't agree with).

And someone mentioned the Women For Sobriety website - I saw it years

ago, it struck me as sort of like Al-Anon, with its copyrights and

qualifications to be a WFS meeting leader or whatever they're called,

it seemed almost as anal-retentive as the average 12-step group.

Actually, I now give a lot more credence to the " Recovery Group

Disorder " than I did years ago when I first heard of it - I was on the

SOS list and Dave (I think it was) posted something like " all recovery

groups will be declared obsolete " on January 1st (of what year, I

forget - 97, 98, 99?).

I don't want to " work a program. " I just want to live my life.

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 10:15 PM 10/5/01 -0400, wrote:

>Hello, Cyndi...It's almost 10 PM and I'm pretty tired right now. I just

quit The Job From

>Hell today

Congratulations!

>and am once again among The Unemployed, and I'm just too pooped to say

anything

>intelligent right now.

>

>But I do want to address things you've written. " But I've had problems

with the way the

>steps

>don't deal with a woman's perspective... ...But, I have always beat

myself up and

>looking at my

>defects doesn't help my self esteem. " Your words ring a bell here, and

I'd like to

>comment and offer my support.

I so much want to say the " woman's perspective " thing is sexist. I don't

see it as exclusively a woman's thing (even though Kasl also writes about

this in the book I mention and recommend below), it's about treating

people with respect and as if they had feelings (because sometimes they do,

regardless of gender). AA just does not do this.

But that's just my little rant...

>A book: The Real Thirteenth Step : Discovering Confidence, Self-Reliance,

and Autonomy

>Beyond the 12-Step Programs, by Ph.D., Tina Tessina. It appears to be out

of print at

>present,

I've seen it on the shelf about every time I've looked in the Recovery

section at Borders in the last year, it's a different cover than the

original edition I got when it first came out about 10 years ago.

>but your library may have it. That's where I saw it. Amazon has used

copies for

>sale cheap. It may be just what the doctor ordered. You don't appear to

have the intense

>and explosive rage that many here have,

You should tell her to unsubscribe before she catches it

> but seem, rather, to have simply outgrown the

>program. This book is directed at such people who have reached the point

where it is time

>to move on.

I (and I would think many others here) feel " The Real 13th Step "

doesn't go nearly far enough. For those who want to continue to work

(or " take " , as an old sponsor would correct people) the 12 steps, this

book has value in reinterpreting them to something more 'liberal' than

is found in AA. But I reject the 12 steps as " a way of life. "

In AA I once said how when people outside AA mess up, they just say

" oops I'm sorry " or some such, they don't go analyzing it and try to

figure out which step(s) apply [all of them] before figuring out what

to do or say...I don't think anyone got it. They believed themselves

to be totally incompetent to do anything without doing the steps.

There is also " Many Roads, One Journey " by Charlotte Kasl,

I found it much more open to many other ideas (though there are some

'new age' ideas in it that I don't agree with).

And someone mentioned the Women For Sobriety website - I saw it years

ago, it struck me as sort of like Al-Anon, with its copyrights and

qualifications to be a WFS meeting leader or whatever they're called,

it seemed almost as anal-retentive as the average 12-step group.

Actually, I now give a lot more credence to the " Recovery Group

Disorder " than I did years ago when I first heard of it - I was on the

SOS list and Dave (I think it was) posted something like " all recovery

groups will be declared obsolete " on January 1st (of what year, I

forget - 97, 98, 99?).

I don't want to " work a program. " I just want to live my life.

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Re: (unknown) >>I don't want to "work a program." I just want to live my life.Hi Ben: Duaine M here: Thats the reason I became a part of SOS. I was sober and happy before there was a SOS. I didn't need a support group at that time and don't need one now. I do enjoy hearing success stories of how people live life Alcohol/Drug free. I enjoy being with people who think. I enjoy being with people who know the person next to them is going to be different from them, different in how they live their sober life. I came out of AA with people telling me that I would never stay sober the way I was doing it. That's something I never heard in SOS. There are no sponsors. No one telling any one what to do. Celebrating our differences is what it's all about. Wow I can't beleave I went on so much. I only meant to say thats the reason I became a part of SOS. I am thinking about deleating this post. I don't know if it's approbate.Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Re: (unknown) >>I don't want to "work a program." I just want to live my life.Hi Ben: Duaine M here: Thats the reason I became a part of SOS. I was sober and happy before there was a SOS. I didn't need a support group at that time and don't need one now. I do enjoy hearing success stories of how people live life Alcohol/Drug free. I enjoy being with people who think. I enjoy being with people who know the person next to them is going to be different from them, different in how they live their sober life. I came out of AA with people telling me that I would never stay sober the way I was doing it. That's something I never heard in SOS. There are no sponsors. No one telling any one what to do. Celebrating our differences is what it's all about. Wow I can't beleave I went on so much. I only meant to say thats the reason I became a part of SOS. I am thinking about deleating this post. I don't know if it's approbate.Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Hey Duaine, I didn't know that you were on this list.

Cyndi, you could also check out Lifering Secular

Recovery at www.unhooked.com. They provide non-step

sobriety support, and also have a womens list. The

website has a list of face to face meetings, links to

a forum, chat, and email lists, plus lots of info on

alternatives to 12-step recovery.

J

--- Duaine Met Dallas_Dallas@...> wrote:

> Hi Cyndi:

> Duaine M here.

> If you are looking for another support group for

> women there is Women for Sobriety at

> http://www.womenforsobriety.org or SOS Women at

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOSWomen

>

>

> (unknown)

>

> Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night.

> I

> am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been going

> to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time

> since

> I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety at

> a

> meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't

> been

> going and working the program. I do feel God wanted

> me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had

> to

> break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> myself. But I've had problems with the way the

> steps

> don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty

> flexible

> and open to discussions about life, not just

> drinking.

> But, I have always beat myself up and looking at my

> defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that I

> haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of

> isolating

> myself and I don't want to stop growing spiritually.

> I am not a religious person so that narrows it down.

> Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks,

> Cyndi

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Duaine, I didn't know that you were on this list.

Cyndi, you could also check out Lifering Secular

Recovery at www.unhooked.com. They provide non-step

sobriety support, and also have a womens list. The

website has a list of face to face meetings, links to

a forum, chat, and email lists, plus lots of info on

alternatives to 12-step recovery.

J

--- Duaine Met Dallas_Dallas@...> wrote:

> Hi Cyndi:

> Duaine M here.

> If you are looking for another support group for

> women there is Women for Sobriety at

> http://www.womenforsobriety.org or SOS Women at

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOSWomen

>

>

> (unknown)

>

> Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night.

> I

> am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been going

> to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time

> since

> I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety at

> a

> meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't

> been

> going and working the program. I do feel God wanted

> me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had

> to

> break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> myself. But I've had problems with the way the

> steps

> don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty

> flexible

> and open to discussions about life, not just

> drinking.

> But, I have always beat myself up and looking at my

> defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that I

> haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of

> isolating

> myself and I don't want to stop growing spiritually.

> I am not a religious person so that narrows it down.

> Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks,

> Cyndi

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

i was on SOS list around that time, dont recall posting it. its that

trimpley's piece about " canceling " the treatment industry?

>

> Actually, I now give a lot more credence to the " Recovery

Group

> Disorder " than I did years ago when I first heard of it - I was on

the

> SOS list and Dave (I think it was) posted something like " all

recovery

> groups will be declared obsolete " on January 1st (of what year,

I

> forget - 97, 98, 99?).

> I don't want to " work a program. " I just want to live my life.

>

[Guest guest]

i was on SOS list around that time, dont recall posting it. its that

trimpley's piece about " canceling " the treatment industry?

>

> Actually, I now give a lot more credence to the " Recovery

Group

> Disorder " than I did years ago when I first heard of it - I was on

the

> SOS list and Dave (I think it was) posted something like " all

recovery

> groups will be declared obsolete " on January 1st (of what year,

I

> forget - 97, 98, 99?).

> I don't want to " work a program. " I just want to live my life.

>

[Guest guest]

i was on SOS list around that time, dont recall posting it. its that

trimpley's piece about " canceling " the treatment industry?

>

> Actually, I now give a lot more credence to the " Recovery

Group

> Disorder " than I did years ago when I first heard of it - I was on

the

> SOS list and Dave (I think it was) posted something like " all

recovery

> groups will be declared obsolete " on January 1st (of what year,

I

> forget - 97, 98, 99?).

> I don't want to " work a program. " I just want to live my life.

>

[Guest guest]

thanks for replying, I, too, am afraid that if I don't

continue to go to AA, I will drink and die. It scares

the shit out of me. I realize that the fear and guilt

were what turned me off of religion too, but it was

easier for me to see with religion. I am 38 and have

battled with depression for years and have been on

Prozac for quite a while. In fact, I just got back

from the hospital where my cousin was just admitted

for schizophrenia. thanks again for your input, Cyndi

--- Tomboy tomboy@...> wrote:

> Just go slowly, it is a process. A little about

> me...I am 43 years old and

> have been indoctrinated in the 12 step program for

> the past 30 years, first

> Alateen and then AA. So I don't know any other way

> of life than the steps.

> A month ago , someone on another list that I belong

> to, slagged AA. Of

> course I got my back up and the war was on but I

> thought that I would

> investigate what she had to say , so at the very

> least I could have an

> intelligent conversation. Once I started reading I

> couldn't stop. I read

> and read and read all the deprogramming stuff on the

> net and have now

> settled down into books.

> The hardest part for me coming out of it all, is the

> belief that if I don't

> go to AA I will drink and I will die. This is a

> really deep belief I have

> and it has been playing games with my head. Actually

> though today was the

> first time that I wasn't preoccupied with that

> thought, so there is progress.

> The best thing so far is the incredible weight that

> has lifted from my

> shoulders. The realisation that there is nothing

> wrong with me, I am not

> any different that any of the " earth people " because

> I am one, I am part of

> the human race.

> I am currently reading " How Alcoholics Anonymous

> failed me " by nne

> Gilliam. An excellent book and a great start to your

> deprogramming.

> For your spiritual growth, there are lots of books

> and information on

> spirituality available everywhere. I would suggest

> that you don't get

> involved in anything really seriously for a period

> of time until you know

> that you are totally free. I have given myself 6

> months before I get

> involved in anything else. I am acutely aware that I

> have been brainwashed

> and that I have been part of a cult and that it

> would be an error to jump

> into anything else right away, I am too vulnerable

> and gullible right now.

> So hang in there, sit back and relax and you will

> hear some great stuff!

>

> kisses

> Del

>

>

> At 05:27 PM 05/10/01 -0700, you wrote:

> >Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night.

> I

> >am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> >will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been

> going

> >to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> >couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> >difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> >calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time

> since

> >I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety

> at a

> >meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't

> been

> >going and working the program. I do feel God

> wanted

> >me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had

> to

> >break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> >myself. But I've had problems with the way the

> steps

> >don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> >lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty

> flexible

> >and open to discussions about life, not just

> drinking.

> > But, I have always beat myself up and looking at

> my

> >defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that

> I

> >haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> >guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> >think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of

> isolating

> >myself and I don't want to stop growing

> spiritually.

> >I am not a religious person so that narrows it

> down.

> >Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> >perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks,

> Cyndi

> >

> >__________________________________________________

> >