Christian duty...

January 23, 2003

Last week I sat down to do my taxes as married filing separately.

I paid no taxes. I would get nothing back.

Duh.

Okay, so I figured out what it would be if Lou and I filed jointly which we can

still do.

We would get a couple thousand back.

If Lou filed separately, he would get a couple hundred back.

So again, duh, we file jointly and split it as neither of us has a great deal

otherwise.

Okay, Lou this morning tells me that he has his W-2 form for the two paychecks

that he received last January. But he says he isn't sure whether or not he

wants fo file together.

Now I just KNOW he plans to file separately and claim all the children and keep

the whole thing. I am furious. He did NOT support those kids except for a few

hundred dollars all last year, and no way he is claiming them on his taxes. I

call my lawyer who naturally is not there.

He calls back. Apparently someone has told him basically that if the kids did

not live with him and he did not support them, then he cannot claim them, which

is a relief (to me anyway) and he agrees that we should file jointly. But he

says he has been drawing on his annuity since the fall and he has paid taxes on

it and he needs that form before we can file.

Fine. I suggest that he see if he can get the information on how much the taxes

were that he paid on his annuity on a website for the annuity or something, but

he cannot or so he claims..

Then he says, " I wish you'd help out on this divorce stuff. Why is it taking so

long? " Um, well, I wasn't aware that I'd been dragging my feet. I explained

that I was eager for the money too, and that I had told my lawyer to get things

done as fast as possible.

And then he complained that he wished I'd help him out financially out of

" Christian duty. " I explained to him that I had $22 in the bank and about two

dollars in my bag and that was all I had until after February 1. And

unfortunately I needed that $22.

He asked me if I was raising the kids as Christians and if I didn't think it set

a good example to them to see that I shared my resources with needier people.

I was growing irritated with this and I said, " You know this is all basically

your own doing, " words which I have never before spoken to him, but which I have

long wanted to say.

But, no, apparently I am wrong. " What, " he asked, " Have I done? The only

reason I am in this position is that I put the good of the family ahead of

myself and took the whole burden of the family on my back alone. "

Um. WHAT???? Okay, here is what he means, I think. He means that he had to

embezzle money because he was giving us so much money that he was unable to meet

his own requirements.

Well, I don't know about that. He had an apartment that cost him $300 a month

and a car payment that cost him $300 a month. Then minor bills like his phone

bill and car insurance and actually I think his utilities were included in his

rent as it is a house converted into apartments. He got $800 twice a month out

of his paycheck. Perhaps this $1600 did not support him in the style which he

felt he deserved, but there is no doubt that he could eat and pay his rent and

car payments and, most likely, manage a few luxuries as well. He spends less

than $200 a month on food, and so it seems to me that he should have had nearly

$800 a month free and available.

Well, maybe it was his legal bills. I guess it was my fault that he had to hire

a lawyer. I never actually wanted a divorce. I only hired a lawyer when he

began threatening my parents and saying that he would force a sale of the house.

When we first talked about divorce he explained to me that I should not hire a

lawyer as it would be too expensive for us and, I guess, I should just let

myself be guided by Lou's sense of appropriateness....

Does this make sense?

He clearly believes that it is my fault we were separated (the domestic violence

that caused the separation is ignored because he considers it an accident that I

should have overlooked) and my fault that he embezzled money.

I felt tired and angry, but I simply said, " I will not discuss this anymore.

Good-bye " and hung up.

Now I know he is probably hungry sometimes. And I do not like to think of my

any of my fellow creatures being hungry. He sneaks food every time he comes in

my house. But he will not get food stamps because he doesn't want to do

community service. And there are food banks in town that would help him too,

but he prefers to ask me. How much responsibility do I owe to him so that he

can keep his pride and not depend too much on public services?

Just how much Christian duty do I owe to this man anyway?

Salli

January 23, 2003

throwing christian duty in

> your face. next time just respond with " well, i have been praying

> for you for a very long time........... "

LOL, now that gave me a great laugh.

Thanks, Kris!

Salli

January 23, 2003

> > Oh Salli what a jerk you were married to !!! I'd let him stay

> hungry...I'm sorry I know that's mean but this man sounds pretty self-

> reliant to me...

Well, he told me that he would be evicted in December and I notice that that

did not happen so I think he always puts the worst possible face on it.

He knows that my family has money, but what he does not seem to understand

is that I will not ask them for money above the very generous allowance that

they give me. My parents are in their 80's. My father has Alzheimer's and

my mother has cancer. They have expressly forbidden me to give him money

and it is THEIR money.

When I pointed this out to Lou, he just said, " Well, it is a matter of what

is the right thing to do. Sometimes your Christian duty means you listen to

your heart. "

Sigh.

I DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO GIVE MY PARENTS' MONEY TO HIM.

And I only have $22 of it left anyway.

And I am not calling them to ask for more.

I am so so so fortunate that I have a family that can and will help me out

in this very difficult situation. I am certainly not going to go against

their express wishes.

Salli

January 23, 2003

>

> Surely this Christian man has heard " God helps those that help

> themselves? "

>

Ha, ha, thanks, a.

Somehow I think he would not consider it to apply to himself just as " Thou

shalt not steal " somehow only applied to others.

Salli

January 23, 2003

Anyway, if he has that kind of money left over maybe he needs financial

councling.

Ah, well, you don't know the full story. Some do here and some newer

members do not. He was an English professor. I had him arrested for

assaulting me (not the first time) and we then split his salary.

Last December he suddenly wanted to stop our divorce proceedings and

reconcile.

Turned out he was about to be arrested for embezzling. He'd been using

university funds to pay his rent and to buy himself the kinds of things he

deserved.

He RESIGNED his job. He was a tenured professor, and, pending the

investigation, they put him on paid leave of absence. Full pay, full

benefits. But no, this genius that I married, has to resign. He thinks

they will be nice to him if he resigns and doesn't give them any trouble.

NOT!

Right? He gave away all his cards and then found that the university was

not willing to do any sort of a deal with him to lower the charges to a

misdemeanor. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Before he resigned, I told him not to and explained why. He resigned the

next day. I think that was the absolute last straw for me with him. I

believe strongly in marriage and working things out but he is just so

hopeless.

So he has had NO income for a year now.

Salli

January 23, 2003

>

> Hmmmm....how much " Christian duty " do you owe a person who broke your

> nose and thinks it was your fault, who lost his job because he

> committed a felony and thinks that is your fault, who will not work

> or accept available community services and thinks that means he

> deserves the last few dollars in your pocket more than your children

> do so that he can continue to nurse the pride that allows him to

> remain in this deluded state, and who then has the audacity to imply

> that refusing to buy into all this is cause to wonder about the

> Christian example your are setting for your children?

Gee, now when you put it like that...

Which is no more than the stark truth.

>

> How does " not much " sound?

It sounds like the right amount.

Remember that story in the Bible where

> the man who had been waiting by the pool at Bethzatha for 38

> yrs...Jesus asked him, " Do you WANT to be healed? " , and when the man

> said he did, told him to " Stand up, pick up your mat, and walk " ...in

> other words, " if you want me to help you, I will, but I want you to

> put a little effort into this, too " .

>

> How much effort is Lou putting into helping himself get out of his

> mess?

I do not know how hard he is trying. He always sounds as if he is terribly

busy.

I really believe that, while we are certainly obligated to

> help those who cannot help themselves, we are under no obligation

> whatsoever to help those who REFUSE to help themselves...

>

Thanks, Raena. You speak wisely as always.

Salli

January 23, 2003

>

> > Just how much Christian duty do I owe to this man anyway?

> >

> > Salli

> >

>

> I feel that it is my Christian duty to come down there and give Lou a

swift

> kick in the ass.

>

Ha, ha, , be my guest.

Although I am not TOTALLY sure that that would be a Christian act....

Salli

January 23, 2003

> Quote 1 5:8 to Lou (paraphrased here: Anyone who does not

> provide for those who are his own and especially for those who are

> members of his own household, has disowned the faith and is worse than

> a person without faith)

>

Great quote, Karin.

>

> p.s. you know, it would be a disservice to your own children to give

> him any money or any food that would be literally coming out of their

> mouths.

He takes food all the time. A few days ago, he came to pick up Sophie for

something and we were eating dinner. I left the room and told me

that he was eating out of the serving dishes using the serving spoon.

Great.

And I have a teenager with severe OCD issues.

There is always one less banana in the fruit bowl after he has come in.

And before we went on vacation to my parents' house at Christmas, I had

three seltzer bottles on my breezeway. Lou came over before we left to say

good-bye to the kids and after he left I suddenly saw that I had NO seltzer

bottles.

>

> good grief that man is unbelievable.

>

Yeah, but I don't think he knows that. He only sees his point of view.

Salli

January 23, 2003

> oh give me a break. i hope you told him your heart is saying " kiss off,

LOUser "

>

Ha, ha, that is about what it was saying too. I just told him I would not

discuss it any further.

Salli

January 23, 2003

> Now, I don't know if that is Christian duty or not. LOL! I think that is

the duty of any decent human being on the planet regurdless of what they

believe. :0) As my friend Marge is fond of saying, I have a cast iron

skillet I am willing to lend for the job.

>

Jacquie used to have a cat pee frying pan. Don't know if she still does...

Salli

January 23, 2003

If he can't work it out, he can

> get a second shift at Mcs. They will probably even feed him.

He claims that they won't hire him... of course, I am not sure what he went

for, manager probably. Naturally HE would not be serving the public at the

drive thru window.

> Naturally there are also the resources you mention. You are not causing

his

> suffering. He has life lessons to learn, and things will only get worse

for

> him until he fixes himself.

>

Yes.

> In my not so humble opinion, his problem is not money or food. It is

pride.

You are so right. It used to bother me, years ago, when he would ask if I

had any cash for him to take to work, and I would have, say, eight quarters.

He acted as if quarters were poison. He did not want to pay with change as

it looked as if he was scrounging for money.

I have scrounged for money and been grateful to scrape together enough

pennies for whatever I needed. Last summer, Sophie and I went through the

car with a fine tooth comb and got LOTS of change. We were pleased.

> [The inner Catholic speaks]: Anything you do to assist him will only

enable

> his pathology. God is forgiving, and calls us also to be forgiving, and

> compassionate, but forgiveness does not wipe away *consequences.* You

need

> not feel ownership for his consequences. If you want to help him, say a

> prayer that he will learn from these lessons before he causes himself

> greater harm, and leave it in God's hands.

Great advice. Mostly I am too mad at him even to pray for him as any

prayers would start sounding a bit snarl-y, if you know what I mean.

>

> I apologize if I have over-stepped my bounds here.

Not at all.

But it *kills* me that

> your ex thinks that any petty concern of his could even begin to compare

> yours - - raising five kids with unique gifts and challenges (not to

mention

> putting up with his shit). It makes me want to get in the car and drive

out

> there to kick him in the head for you! (say the word and I'm on my way

> ... )

>

Ha, ha, go right ahead.

Salli

January 23, 2003

> >> I do not know how hard he is trying. He always sounds as if he is

> > terribly busy. >>

>

> See now....this is why you're up for sainthood and I'm not.

Ha, ha, actually I meant that with a touch of sarcasm. I was rushed by

someone here needing something and so I did not add the next part which

would have been, " certainly he seems to think he is busier than I am as I am

clearly not doing anything very important. "

Salli

January 23, 2003

>

> OTOH, I'm not Christian.

>

Closer than Lou.

Salli

January 24, 2003

> OMG!! Even Jacquie is quoting!!! Salli, this is big, you absolutely can

> not give anything to Lou! Lightning will strike!!

>

Ha, ha, don't worry. He is annoyed at me though. Said he couldn't take the

big boys to their work out because he had no gas.

Salli

January 24, 2003

> >

>

> ok then I'll let my husband do it. He's a healthen anyway

>

It's a plan, .

Send him over.

Salli

January 24, 2003

> > They have expressly forbidden me to give him money

> > and it is THEIR money.

> >

> > When I pointed this out to Lou, he just said, " Well, it is a matter of

> what

> > is the right thing to do. Sometimes your Christian duty means you

listen

> to

> > your heart. "

>

> " Honour thy father and thy mother " , asshole.

Great answer. I'll try to remember to use it.

Salli

January 24, 2003

In a message dated 1/24/03 12:01:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

bunnytiner@... writes:

> Just how much Christian duty do I owe to this man anyway?

>

> Salli

>

I feel that it is my Christian duty to come down there and give Lou a swift

kick in the ass.

January 24, 2003

In a message dated 1/24/03 1:06:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,

bunnytiner@... writes:

> Although I am not TOTALLY sure that that would be a Christian act....

>

> Salli

>

ok then I'll let my husband do it. He's a healthen anyway

January 24, 2003

oh geez salli, just WHAT are you going thru? i had no idea, bless

your heart! About Christian duty, the man is supposed to provide for

his children, his wife, and certainly not attack his family (did you

mention domestic violence????)!!! Also, stealing is wrong, and so is

manipulation, which he sounds like the king of. forgive me for being

so judgemental, but what a jerk! and then throwing christian duty in

your face. next time just respond with " well, i have been praying

for you for a very long time........... " hugs, kris

> Last week I sat down to do my taxes as married filing separately.

>

> I paid no taxes. I would get nothing back.

>

> Duh.

>

> Okay, so I figured out what it would be if Lou and I filed jointly

which we can still do.

>

> We would get a couple thousand back.

>

> If Lou filed separately, he would get a couple hundred back.

>

> So again, duh, we file jointly and split it as neither of us has a

great deal otherwise.

>

> Okay, Lou this morning tells me that he has his W-2 form for the

two paychecks that he received last January. But he says he isn't

sure whether or not he wants fo file together.

>

> Now I just KNOW he plans to file separately and claim all the

children and keep the whole thing. I am furious. He did NOT support

those kids except for a few hundred dollars all last year, and no way

he is claiming them on his taxes. I call my lawyer who naturally is

not there.

>

> He calls back. Apparently someone has told him basically that if

the kids did not live with him and he did not support them, then he

cannot claim them, which is a relief (to me anyway) and he agrees

that we should file jointly. But he says he has been drawing on his

annuity since the fall and he has paid taxes on it and he needs that

form before we can file.

>

> Fine. I suggest that he see if he can get the information on how

much the taxes were that he paid on his annuity on a website for the

annuity or something, but he cannot or so he claims..

>

> Then he says, " I wish you'd help out on this divorce stuff. Why is

it taking so long? " Um, well, I wasn't aware that I'd been dragging

my feet. I explained that I was eager for the money too, and that I

had told my lawyer to get things done as fast as possible.

>

> And then he complained that he wished I'd help him out financially

out of " Christian duty. " I explained to him that I had $22 in the

bank and about two dollars in my bag and that was all I had until

after February 1. And unfortunately I needed that $22.

>

> He asked me if I was raising the kids as Christians and if I didn't

think it set a good example to them to see that I shared my resources

with needier people.

>

> I was growing irritated with this and I said, " You know this is all

basically your own doing, " words which I have never before spoken to

him, but which I have long wanted to say.

>

> But, no, apparently I am wrong. " What, " he asked, " Have I done?

The only reason I am in this position is that I put the good of the

family ahead of myself and took the whole burden of the family on my

back alone. "

>

> Um. WHAT???? Okay, here is what he means, I think. He means that

he had to embezzle money because he was giving us so much money that

he was unable to meet his own requirements.

>

> Well, I don't know about that. He had an apartment that cost him

$300 a month and a car payment that cost him $300 a month. Then

minor bills like his phone bill and car insurance and actually I

think his utilities were included in his rent as it is a house

converted into apartments. He got $800 twice a month out of his

paycheck. Perhaps this $1600 did not support him in the style which

he felt he deserved, but there is no doubt that he could eat and pay

his rent and car payments and, most likely, manage a few luxuries as

well. He spends less than $200 a month on food, and so it seems to

me that he should have had nearly $800 a month free and available.

>

> Well, maybe it was his legal bills. I guess it was my fault that

he had to hire a lawyer. I never actually wanted a divorce. I only

hired a lawyer when he began threatening my parents and saying that

he would force a sale of the house. When we first talked about

divorce he explained to me that I should not hire a lawyer as it

would be too expensive for us and, I guess, I should just let myself

be guided by Lou's sense of appropriateness....

>

> Does this make sense?

>

> He clearly believes that it is my fault we were separated (the

domestic violence that caused the separation is ignored because he

considers it an accident that I should have overlooked) and my fault

that he embezzled money.

>

> I felt tired and angry, but I simply said, " I will not discuss this

anymore. Good-bye " and hung up.

>

> Now I know he is probably hungry sometimes. And I do not like to

think of my any of my fellow creatures being hungry. He sneaks food

every time he comes in my house. But he will not get food stamps

because he doesn't want to do community service. And there are food

banks in town that would help him too, but he prefers to ask me. How

much responsibility do I owe to him so that he can keep his pride and

not depend too much on public services?

>

> Just how much Christian duty do I owe to this man anyway?

>

> Salli

>

January 24, 2003

> oh geez salli, just WHAT are you going thru? i had no idea, bless

> your heart! About Christian duty, the man is supposed to provide

for

> his children, his wife, and certainly not attack his family (did

you

> mention domestic violence????)!!! Also, stealing is wrong, and so

is

> manipulation, which he sounds like the king of. forgive me for

being

> so judgemental, but what a jerk! and then throwing christian duty

in

> your face. next time just respond with " well, i have been praying

> for you for a very long time........... " hugs, kris

>

> Oh Salli what a jerk you were married to !!! I'd let him stay

hungry...I'm sorry I know that's mean but this man sounds pretty self-

reliant to me... (mom to Will 4 ASD)

January 24, 2003

<snip>> Just how much Christian duty do I owe to this man anyway?

>

> Salli

Surely this Christian man has heard " God helps those that help

themselves? "

<<<hugs.>>

a

January 24, 2003

Big breath. That is all unbelievable.

That being said, if he has that kind of left over money (more than what we have

most months and brings home about $4000 a month...ok, before anyone freaks

here, the cost of living is really high, right BJ? Hee hee. I mean, " cheap

rent " is $1200 to $1300 a month and I do have 7 kids to feed, and even with

insurance ~ since they screwed with our Rx coverage ~ we still have to pay $100

or more out of pocket a month on my husbands drugs depending on what he needs

refilled, guarenteed $90 a month.) Anyway, if he has that kind of money left

over maybe he needs financial councling. Would it be beyond your Christian duty

to point him in the right direction? Teach a man to fish and all. I mean,

pointing him in the right direction and giving him the resources to help himself

is one thing and a good thing, giving the man handouts on the other hand is not

productive in the long run.

Georga Hackworth

Enter to win $50 worth of free books

www.ubah.com/F1549

Christian duty...

Last week I sat down to do my taxes as married filing separately.

I paid no taxes. I would get nothing back.

Duh.

Okay, so I figured out what it would be if Lou and I filed jointly which we

can still do.

We would get a couple thousand back.

If Lou filed separately, he would get a couple hundred back.

So again, duh, we file jointly and split it as neither of us has a great deal

otherwise.

Okay, Lou this morning tells me that he has his W-2 form for the two paychecks

that he received last January. But he says he isn't sure whether or not he

wants fo file together.

Now I just KNOW he plans to file separately and claim all the children and

keep the whole thing. I am furious. He did NOT support those kids except for a

few hundred dollars all last year, and no way he is claiming them on his taxes.

I call my lawyer who naturally is not there.

He calls back. Apparently someone has told him basically that if the kids did

not live with him and he did not support them, then he cannot claim them, which

is a relief (to me anyway) and he agrees that we should file jointly. But he

says he has been drawing on his annuity since the fall and he has paid taxes on

it and he needs that form before we can file.

Fine. I suggest that he see if he can get the information on how much the

taxes were that he paid on his annuity on a website for the annuity or

something, but he cannot or so he claims..

Then he says, " I wish you'd help out on this divorce stuff. Why is it taking

so long? " Um, well, I wasn't aware that I'd been dragging my feet. I explained

that I was eager for the money too, and that I had told my lawyer to get things

done as fast as possible.

And then he complained that he wished I'd help him out financially out of

" Christian duty. " I explained to him that I had $22 in the bank and about two

dollars in my bag and that was all I had until after February 1. And

unfortunately I needed that $22.

He asked me if I was raising the kids as Christians and if I didn't think it

set a good example to them to see that I shared my resources with needier

people.