HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

[Guest guest]

Isn't assault already illegal? What's an increased punishment going to

accomplish? I seriously doubt anyone says, " Don't assault the firefighter

because it'll be a felony. Assault the private EMS paramedic instead. "

And I'm sorry, but I don't think that doing a transfer counts as being a

public servant the same as responding to a 911 call does. Maybe it would be

better if they wrote the statute to apply to public EMS providers or a private

responder who is responding to a 911 call from the public?

-Wes Ogilvie

In a message dated 1/29/2007 8:20:21 AM Central Standard Time,

rxmd911@... writes:

If I remember correctly, in one state law, private security officers were

placed right along with police officers for offenses against them while on

duty. I'd have to look to see which law this was. If we can put security in

that

group, why NOT put ALL EMS personnel in this one. As I stated before in a

post that was censored by group police, you put on finger on a cop you get agg

assault on a PO. But you do the same to EMS and you get changed with simple

assault. Talk about an injustice.

Wayne

_fremsdallas@fremsda_ (mailto:fremsdallas@...) wrote:

To: _texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem_ (mailto:texasems-l )

From: _fremsdallas@fremsda_ (mailto:fremsdallas@...)

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:08:00 EST

Subject: Re: Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

I strongly feel that no licensed or certified EMS provider should be

excluded from this Bill if it does become enacted--private, volunteer or

otherwise.

For any of our municipality employed brethren to suggest otherwise

demonstrates even further the " us versus them " syndrome that keeps us

divided as a

profession on the whole. Some of the same " exclude the private " commentators

are the same ones who preach " unity and the world " for EMS. Does that mean

" unity and the world--unless you a employed by a private service, volunteer

department or hospital? " Kind of like the founders of this country--All men

are

created equal. Equal if you a rich, white. male landowner. It took almost

200 years for us to clarify that " Everybody is equal. " Even if you are a

privately employed EMT or Medic in Texas.

And by the way, not all privately owned services are corrupt or out to

fleece their employees, clients or the system. In fact, I started my service

with

a vow to myself to operate ethically, treat my employees well, pay them a

livable wage and respect them for the job that they do. I have worked for

too

many services that were the opposite. In return, I have (in my opinion) the

best damned group of EMS PROFESSIONALS that I have ever had the Privilege to

work with. Every single one of them. My only regret is that I cannot do

more for them. Despite the typical " family bickering " we all pull together

to

get the job done and it makes me proud to see that folks are proud to work

at

FREMS. In fact, most of the employees who have left voluntarily have

reapplied within a few months. That says a lot about us as a team. And

whether

they are working an MVA, a 911 mutual aid call, an assault at an event, a

psychiatric transfer or a simple dialysis call, I hope and pray that the

lawmakers

of this great state have the wisdom and the courage to extend that

additional

protection to them and everyone else that is not municipally employed.

After all, they deserve it.

Bacco

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------

Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q & A.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Guest guest]

So Wes...like I commented on Mike's post...the gist should be if you call a 3

digit number for ambulance service then the assault penalty should be higher

than if you call a 7 digit number...what about the public agencies that do

non-emergency transfers?

When they are taking the little old lady back to the nursing home and she beats

them up that should not be Public Servant assault...but if the nursing home

calls 911 to take her to the hospital and she beats them up it is Public Servant

assault????

I fail to see the difference other than the number of digits used to summon the

ambulance....

Dudley

Re: Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

I strongly feel that no licensed or certified EMS provider should be

excluded from this Bill if it does become enacted--private, volunteer or

otherwise.

For any of our municipality employed brethren to suggest otherwise

demonstrates even further the " us versus them " syndrome that keeps us

divided as a

profession on the whole. Some of the same " exclude the private " commentators

are the same ones who preach " unity and the world " for EMS. Does that mean

" unity and the world--unless you a employed by a private service, volunteer

department or hospital? " Kind of like the founders of this country--All men

are

created equal. Equal if you a rich, white. male landowner. It took almost

200 years for us to clarify that " Everybody is equal. " Even if you are a

privately employed EMT or Medic in Texas.

And by the way, not all privately owned services are corrupt or out to

fleece their employees, clients or the system. In fact, I started my service

with

a vow to myself to operate ethically, treat my employees well, pay them a

livable wage and respect them for the job that they do. I have worked for

too

many services that were the opposite. In return, I have (in my opinion) the

best damned group of EMS PROFESSIONALS that I have ever had the Privilege to

work with. Every single one of them. My only regret is that I cannot do

more for them. Despite the typical " family bickering " we all pull together

to

get the job done and it makes me proud to see that folks are proud to work

at

FREMS. In fact, most of the employees who have left voluntarily have

reapplied within a few months. That says a lot about us as a team. And

whether

they are working an MVA, a 911 mutual aid call, an assault at an event, a

psychiatric transfer or a simple dialysis call, I hope and pray that the

lawmakers

of this great state have the wisdom and the courage to extend that

additional

protection to them and everyone else that is not municipally employed.

After all, they deserve it.

Bacco

[Guest guest]

For one, not every city in the State has 911. Also, many EMS services do both

emergency and non-emergency runs. And a private service doing EMS may be (in

fact almost always is) with the approval of the local government....and since it

" saves " public funding, it can b e considered as a " public service " even though

they may not actually be paid or employed by the local government. Its a

complicated game.....

Re: Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

I strongly feel that no licensed or certified EMS provider should be

excluded from this Bill if it does become enacted--private, volunteer or

otherwise.

For any of our municipality employed brethren to suggest otherwise

demonstrates even further the " us versus them " syndrome that keeps us

divided as a

profession on the whole. Some of the same " exclude the private " commentators

are the same ones who preach " unity and the world " for EMS. Does that mean

" unity and the world--unless you a employed by a private service, volunteer

department or hospital? " Kind of like the founders of this country--All men

are

created equal. Equal if you a rich, white. male landowner. It took almost

200 years for us to clarify that " Everybody is equal. " Even if you are a

privately employed EMT or Medic in Texas.

And by the way, not all privately owned services are corrupt or out to

fleece their employees, clients or the system. In fact, I started my service

with

a vow to myself to operate ethically, treat my employees well, pay them a

livable wage and respect them for the job that they do. I have worked for

too

many services that were the opposite. In return, I have (in my opinion) the

best damned group of EMS PROFESSIONALS that I have ever had the Privilege to

work with. Every single one of them. My only regret is that I cannot do

more for them. Despite the typical " family bickering " we all pull together

to

get the job done and it makes me proud to see that folks are proud to work

at

FREMS. In fact, most of the employees who have left voluntarily have

reapplied within a few months. That says a lot about us as a team. And

whether

they are working an MVA, a 911 mutual aid call, an assault at an event, a

psychiatric transfer or a simple dialysis call, I hope and pray that the

lawmakers

of this great state have the wisdom and the courage to extend that

additional

protection to them and everyone else that is not municipally employed.

After all, they deserve it.

Bacco

[Guest guest]

What if they dial 411 and are transferred to the ambulance dispatcher?

_____

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of THEDUDMAN@...

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 9:18 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

So Wes...like I commented on Mike's post...the gist should be if you call a

3 digit number for ambulance service then the assault penalty should be

higher than if you call a 7 digit number...what about the public agencies

that do non-emergency transfers?

When they are taking the little old lady back to the nursing home and she

beats them up that should not be Public Servant assault...but if the nursing

home calls 911 to take her to the hospital and she beats them up it is

Public Servant assault????

I fail to see the difference other than the number of digits used to summon

the ambulance....

Dudley

Re: Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

I strongly feel that no licensed or certified EMS provider should be

excluded from this Bill if it does become enacted--private, volunteer or

otherwise.

For any of our municipality employed brethren to suggest otherwise

demonstrates even further the " us versus them " syndrome that keeps us

divided as a

profession on the whole. Some of the same " exclude the private " commentators

are the same ones who preach " unity and the world " for EMS. Does that mean

" unity and the world--unless you a employed by a private service, volunteer

department or hospital? " Kind of like the founders of this country--All men

are

created equal. Equal if you a rich, white. male landowner. It took almost

200 years for us to clarify that " Everybody is equal. " Even if you are a

privately employed EMT or Medic in Texas.

And by the way, not all privately owned services are corrupt or out to

fleece their employees, clients or the system. In fact, I started my service

with

a vow to myself to operate ethically, treat my employees well, pay them a

livable wage and respect them for the job that they do. I have worked for

too

many services that were the opposite. In return, I have (in my opinion) the

best damned group of EMS PROFESSIONALS that I have ever had the Privilege to

work with. Every single one of them. My only regret is that I cannot do

more for them. Despite the typical " family bickering " we all pull together

to

get the job done and it makes me proud to see that folks are proud to work

at

FREMS. In fact, most of the employees who have left voluntarily have

reapplied within a few months. That says a lot about us as a team. And

whether

they are working an MVA, a 911 mutual aid call, an assault at an event, a

psychiatric transfer or a simple dialysis call, I hope and pray that the

lawmakers

of this great state have the wisdom and the courage to extend that

additional

protection to them and everyone else that is not municipally employed.

After all, they deserve it.

Bacco

[Guest guest]

Wes, as professionals, we are all obligated to report unethical behavior.

Whether somebody turns a blind eye is another matter. However, if one turns a

blind eye they are just as accountable as those who are unscrupulous.

Why do you believe that it is up the " private EMS providers " to drive out

the shysters? All anybody can do is report the questionable behavior. After

that, it is up to the regulatory and/or enforcement agencies to conduct their

investigation and take action if need be.

As a profession as a whole, it needs to get fixed from the educational

perspective. You and I had this conversation a while back. The schools need

to

teach more about the ethical and legal aspects of the profession.

Additionally, they need to start teaching documentation again. Not just SOAP,

CHART,

etc. but what a medical necessity for transport is. That is where the shysters

get to take advantage of the system and make all privates look bad. They

have found a knowledge deficit in the initial training, take a naive person out

of school and " train " them the wrong or even illegal way to conduct the

documentation aspect of the job.

Whether or not people like it, private EMS is a part of the system and

profession as a whole and is a much larger part than the public model. As such

it

has a greater impact on the fiscal side of it when it is conducted

inappropriately.

[Guest guest]

The thought process for all patients is the same. Assess the ABCs, conduct

a primary and secondary assessment, determine your course of action, continue

treatment en route and deliver your patient to their destination.

Again, why should the privates weed out the privates? If privates were to

start doing that to each other, further Mother, Juggs and Speed

competitiveness would emerge. We would then begin to hear phrases like

" intentional tort "

and " disparagement " on a regular basis if the privates " policed " the privates

and it were determined to be unfounded and without merit.

No. the " policing " needs to be left to the regulators not the competitiors.

[Guest guest]

Wes, I agree that we can and should regulate ourselves. It can and does

work like you say. But other professions do not discriminate against each

other

because of where their peers work (hence the debate over this particular

thread). I stated that in an earlier post.

One of the conflicts between ourselves that I have noticed over the years is

not necessarily private vs public EMS but rather fire based versus non-fire

based EMS. Not to open up another argument (for that is not my intention)

but it seems to me (my opinion only) that we as EMS professionals would go

further and unite stronger if the fire part were taken out of the picture and

EMS

became essential third city services. EMS providers under the law are EMS

providers. As far a regulations go, we are all one big sometimes happy

dysfunctional family.

In the words of the infamous Rodney King-- " Can't we all just get along? "

[Guest guest]

What about private school teachers as opposed to public school teachers? Aren't

they " public servants " also?

Let's give public benefits and protections to everyone in the private sector who

does anything close to what public servants might do. I can just imagine it --

civil service protection for a purchasing clerk at Dell, just because someone at

Big City FD also does purchasing. Maybe that will end the false piety from some

of the private operators. Or maybe we need to attach the public servant status

to anyone with EMS certification? That way if Bob Medic gets his butt

whipped at the local honky-tonk, it's a felony. <GRIN>

Seriously, the difference between 911 and non-emergency transfer is the unknown.

911 EMS response is a riskier field, with greater risks of being exposed to

unknown and/or violent scenes. The law proposes to recognize that risk and

punish those who take advantage of it.

-Wes

Re: Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

I strongly feel that no licensed or certified EMS provider should be

excluded from this Bill if it does become enacted--private, volunteer or

otherwise.

For any of our municipality employed brethren to suggest otherwise

demonstrates even further the " us versus them " syndrome that keeps us

divided as a

profession on the whole. Some of the same " exclude the private " commentators

are the same ones who preach " unity and the world " for EMS. Does that mean

" unity and the world--unless you a employed by a private service, volunteer

department or hospital? " Kind of like the founders of this country--All men

are

created equal. Equal if you a rich, white. male landowner. It took almost

200 years for us to clarify that " Everybody is equal. " Even if you are a

privately employed EMT or Medic in Texas.

And by the way, not all privately owned services are corrupt or out to

fleece their employees, clients or the system. In fact, I started my service

with

a vow to myself to operate ethically, treat my employees well, pay them a

livable wage and respect them for the job that they do. I have worked for

too

many services that were the opposite. In return, I have (in my opinion) the

best damned group of EMS PROFESSIONALS that I have ever had the Privilege to

work with. Every single one of them. My only regret is that I cannot do

more for them. Despite the typical " family bickering " we all pull together

to

get the job done and it makes me proud to see that folks are proud to work

at

FREMS. In fact, most of the employees who have left voluntarily have

reapplied within a few months. That says a lot about us as a team. And

whether

they are working an MVA, a 911 mutual aid call, an assault at an event, a

psychiatric transfer or a simple dialysis call, I hope and pray that the

lawmakers

of this great state have the wisdom and the courage to extend that

additional

protection to them and everyone else that is not municipally employed.

After all, they deserve it.

Bacco

[Guest guest]

:

I couldn't agree more about the fire versus non-fire dichotomy. However,

just like there are good private services, there are some fantastic based

fire-based EMS systems. Unfortunately, all it takes is Mongo dropping Mrs.

because Mongo wanted to be a firefighter, not " driving an ambulance. "

Again, there's good and bad in every form that EMS is delivered.

My apologies if I haven't made that clear enough.

-Wes

In a message dated 1/29/2007 4:50:45 PM Central Standard Time,

fremsdallas@... writes:

Wes, I agree that we can and should regulate ourselves. It can and does

work like you say. But other professions do not discriminate against each

other

because of where their peers work (hence the debate over this particular

thread). I stated that in an earlier post.

One of the conflicts between ourselves that I have noticed over the years is

not necessarily private vs public EMS but rather fire based versus non-fire

based EMS. Not to open up another argument (for that is not my intention)

but it seems to me (my opinion only) that we as EMS professionals would go

further and unite stronger if the fire part were taken out of the picture

and EMS

became essential third city services. EMS providers under the law are EMS

providers. As far a regulations go, we are all one big sometimes happy

dysfunctional family.

In the words of the infamous Rodney King-- " Can't we all just get along? "

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Guest guest]

Gene,

I am not sure how under the current structure, you could hold field personnel

trying to scratch out a living, accountable for the management practices of the

owners. Are you saying that we should prosecute the employees for fraud

committed by the owenrs?

I am also surprised that someone such as yourself who has been such an

outspoken advocate of our profession coming together can justify supporting an

idea that does nothing to bring down the divisions between us. In my mind, this

line of thinking only deepens the chasms that seperate us.

Dave

wegandy1938@... wrote:

Please do not distort what I have said. If you read my post last

night, you

will see that I am open to inclusion of private services working under a 911

contract.

What I am not convinced of is that private services who do no 911 work and

which may have dubious ownership, management, and practices should have the same

status as those chosen by a governmental entity to provide 911 service.

Gene Gandy

>

> so I take it that Gene would refuse transport if a

> private ambulance service showed up on his door when

> he called 911. If we are so BOGUS then he wouldn't

> want us treating him or his familey in an emergency

> because obviously we dont know what we are doing as we

> just made up our certs. Anyway off my box.

>

> <a href= " http://vampirefreakhttp: " ><img src= "

> http://e.vampirefrehttp://e.vampirehttp://e.http: " ></a>

>

> <a href= " http://www.myspace.http://www.mys " target= " _blank " ><img src= "

> http://x.myspace.http://x.myhttp://x.myspahttp: " border= " 0 " ><<w><img src= "

> http://myspace-http://myspachttp://myshttp://myspace-http: "

border= " 0 " ><<w><font

> size= " 1 " face= " Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif " ><wbr>Check me</font><<w>

>

> ____________ ________ ________ ________ ________ ________

> Need Mail bonding?

> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

> http://answers.http://anshttp://anshttp & sid=sid=<wbr>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kenny,

How many cities in the state do not have 911? Can you cite one?

Gene

>

>

> For one, not every city in the State has 911. Also, many EMS services do

> both emergency and non-emergency runs. And a private service doing EMS may be

> (in fact almost always is) with the approval of the local government.. For

one,

> not every city in the State has 911. Also, many EMS services do both

> emergency and non-emergency runs. And a private service doing EMS may be (in

fact

> almost always is) with the ap

>

>

> Re: Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

>

> I strongly feel that no licensed or certified EMS provider should be

> excluded from this Bill if it does become enacted--private, volunteer or

> otherwise.

> For any of our municipality employed brethren to suggest otherwise

> demonstrates even further the " us versus them " syndrome that keeps us

> divided as a

> profession on the whole. Some of the same " exclude the private " commentators

> are the same ones who preach " unity and the world " for EMS. Does that mean

> " unity and the world--unless you a employed by a private service, volunteer

> department or hospital? " Kind of like the founders of this country--All men

> are

> created equal. Equal if you a rich, white. male landowner. It took almost

> 200 years for us to clarify that " Everybody is equal. " Even if you are a

> privately employed EMT or Medic in Texas.

>

> And by the way, not all privately owned services are corrupt or out to

> fleece their employees, clients or the system. In fact, I started my service

> with

> a vow to myself to operate ethically, treat my employees well, pay them a

> livable wage and respect them for the job that they do. I have worked for

> too

> many services that were the opposite. In return, I have (in my opinion) the

> best damned group of EMS PROFESSIONALS that I have ever had the Privilege to

> work with. Every single one of them. My only regret is that I cannot do

> more for them. Despite the typical " family bickering " we all pull together

> to

> get the job done and it makes me proud to see that folks are proud to work

> at

> FREMS. In fact, most of the employees who have left voluntarily have

> reapplied within a few months. That says a lot about us as a team. And

> whether

> they are working an MVA, a 911 mutual aid call, an assault at an event, a

> psychiatric transfer or a simple dialysis call, I hope and pray that the

> lawmakers

> of this great state have the wisdom and the courage to extend that

> additional

> protection to them and everyone else that is not municipally employed.

> After all, they deserve it.

>

> Bacco

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wes,

Not wishing to be confrontational here but what evidence do you have that the

industry has or has not done anything to " drive the shysters out " . I hope that

your argument is not that since crimes are still being committed that is proof

that nothing has been done. As an esteemed barrister I am sure that you see the

folly of that line of thinking.

Should we assume that since there is a long list of attorneys being punished

and disbarred then there must be no efforts to drive the shysters out of the

legal profession. Maybe that fact that there is a line of people getting in

trouble and either disbarred or thrown in jail does mean that there is something

being done in both the legal and EMS professions. If no EMS providers were being

raided and prosecuted, I would be more concerned that no one was looking. Could

it be that there are more crooks in both professions than there are people to

chase them down?

Also, in what ways do you see EMS " dramatically " improving if we drive the

shysters out? Pretty bold statement and I hope you are right but I would like

more facts and info about how you arrived at this conclusion.

Dave

ExLngHrn@... wrote:

If the private EMS services would spend half as much time worrying about driving

the shysters out of their midst as they are worrying about their status as

public servants, EMS would improve dramatically.

Recent Activity

2

New Members

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[Guest guest]

The difference between being a lawyer and being a medic is part of what makes

law a profession. The legal profession is self-regulated (feel free to insert a

joke about the fox watching the hen house). Additionally, as an attorney, I

have an ethical obligation under the Texas Disciplinary Rules of Professional

Conduct to report illegal or unethical behavior committed by another lawyer.

How many of us in EMS even follow such a rule? We know all too many medics who

use the Nuremburg defense of " just following orders " when creatively documenting

run forms to get Medicare, Medicaid, and insurance reimbursement.

That's the kind of change that EMS needs to gain recognition as a profession.

And we all know who the shysters are. We all know the stories about their

antics. How many of us have reported them when we see them doing something

wrong?

-Wes

Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

Wes,

Not wishing to be confrontational here but what evidence do you have that the

industry has or has not done anything to " drive the shysters out " . I hope that

your argument is not that since crimes are still being committed that is proof

that nothing has been done. As an esteemed barrister I am sure that you see the

folly of that line of thinking.

Should we assume that since there is a long list of attorneys being punished and

disbarred then there must be no efforts to drive the shysters out of the legal

profession. Maybe that fact that there is a line of people getting in trouble

and either disbarred or thrown in jail does mean that there is something being

done in both the legal and EMS professions. If no EMS providers were being

raided and prosecuted, I would be more concerned that no one was looking. Could

it be that there are more crooks in both professions than there are people to

chase them down?

Also, in what ways do you see EMS " dramatically " improving if we drive the

shysters out? Pretty bold statement and I hope you are right but I would like

more facts and info about how you arrived at this conclusion.

Dave

ExLngHrn@... wrote:

If the private EMS services would spend half as much time worrying about driving

the shysters out of their midst as they are worrying about their status as

public servants, EMS would improve dramatically.

Recent Activity

2

New Members

Visit Your Group

[Guest guest]

I have hired a few people that were " whistleblowers " (at their previous job) and

supposedly protected by law that were fired for other reasons (usually just

after they blow the whistle) and our system nor the regulatory system that they

were turned into, did anything. These are not just rare cases either. It

happens all over this great nation of ours.

Andy Foote

Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

Wes,

Not wishing to be confrontational here but what evidence do you have that the

industry has or has not done anything to " drive the shysters out " . I hope that

your argument is not that since crimes are still being committed that is proof

that nothing has been done. As an esteemed barrister I am sure that you see the

folly of that line of thinking.

Should we assume that since there is a long list of attorneys being punished and

disbarred then there must be no efforts to drive the shysters out of the legal

profession. Maybe that fact that there is a line of people getting in trouble

and either disbarred or thrown in jail does mean that there is something being

done in both the legal and EMS professions. If no EMS providers were being

raided and prosecuted, I would be more concerned that no one was looking. Could

it be that there are more crooks in both professions than there are people to

chase them down?

Also, in what ways do you see EMS " dramatically " improving if we drive the

shysters out? Pretty bold statement and I hope you are right but I would like

more facts and info about how you arrived at this conclusion.

Dave

ExLngHrn@... wrote:

If the private EMS services would spend half as much time worrying about driving

the shysters out of their midst as they are worrying about their status as

public servants, EMS would improve dramatically.

Recent Activity

2

New Members

Visit Your Group

[Guest guest]

Dave,

All individuals are responsible for crimes they commit. Therefore, if a low

level employee commits a crime at the behest of management, that employee is

answerable for his crimes. The manager may also be responsible, and probably

will be.

I am not trying to put any boundaries between EMS providers. You

misunderstand me completely. I'm only talking about public policy and who

extraordinary penalties ought to be extended to.

All EMS people are brothers and sisters, and I love them all. It's all

about legal status, not about parity of talent, responsibility, goodness, or any

such other notions.

I'm purely talking about the power of the government. I do not advocate

that enhanced penalties be extended to lawyers who are assaulted.

This is all about limited government in my mind.

Gene G.

>

> Gene,

>

> I am not sure how under the current structure, you could hold field

> personnel trying to scratch out a living, accountable for the management

practices of

> the owners. Are you saying that we should prosecute the employees for fraud

> committed by the owners?

>

> I am also surprised that someone such as yourself who has been such an

> outspoken advocate of our profession coming together can justify supporting an

> idea that does nothing to bring down the divisions between us. In my mind,

this

> line of thinking only deepens the chasms that seperate us.

>

> Dave

>

> wegandy1938@wegandy wrote:

> Please do not distort what I have said. If you read my post last night, you

> will see that I am open to inclusion of private services working under a 911

> contract.

>

> What I am not convinced of is that private services who do no 911 work and

> which may have dubious ownership, management, and practices should have the

> same

> status as those chosen by a governmental entity to provide 911 service.

>

> Gene Gandy

>

>

> >

> > so I take it that Gene would refuse transport if a

> > private ambulance service showed up on his door when

> > he called 911. If we are so BOGUS then he wouldn't

> > want us treating him or his familey in an emergency

> > because obviously we dont know what we are doing as we

> > just made up our certs. Anyway off my box.

> >

> > <a href= " http://vampirefreakhttp: " ><img src= "

> > http://e.vampirefrehttp://e.http://e.vamhttp://e. " ></a>

> >

> > <a href= " http://www.myspace.http://www.htt " target= " _blank " ><img src= "

> > http://x.myspace.http://x.http://x.http://x.mys " border= " 0 " ><<w><img src= "

> > http://myspace-http://myspace-http://myspahttp://myshttp: " border= " 0 " ><<w><

> font

> > size= " 1 " face= " Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif " ><wbr>Check me</font><

> <w>

> >

> > ____________ ________ ________ ________ ________ ________

> > Need Mail bonding?

> > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

> > http://answers.http://answers.http://an & <wbr>sid<wbr>

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

We have all too many in EMS who do turn a blind eye. And that is part of why

EMS cannot yet be considered a profession.

I also have decided that there's a difference between emergency responses

(including critical care transfers) and scheduled transfers. While the

certification is the same (and whether it should be is a matter for debate as

well), the skills sets, thought processes, and mindsets aren't necessarily the

same.

As for why the private providers need to drive the shysters out -- the answer is

simple. Until we get rid of the shady operators who fudge run forms, etc, we

are all going to be lumped into the same category. Honestly, Dallas, San

, Houston, and the Valley have so many private services competing for a

limited slice of the Medicare and Medicaid budget that we're closer to " Mother,

Juggs, and Speed " than we'd care to admit. Tell me how 200+ ambulance

providers in County can all have a business case for continuing to exist.

-Wes

Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

Wes, as professionals, we are all obligated to report unethical behavior.

Whether somebody turns a blind eye is another matter. However, if one turns a

blind eye they are just as accountable as those who are unscrupulous.

Why do you believe that it is up the " private EMS providers " to drive out

the shysters? All anybody can do is report the questionable behavior. After

that, it is up to the regulatory and/or enforcement agencies to conduct their

investigation and take action if need be.

As a profession as a whole, it needs to get fixed from the educational

perspective. You and I had this conversation a while back. The schools need to

teach more about the ethical and legal aspects of the profession.

Additionally, they need to start teaching documentation again. Not just SOAP,

CHART,

etc. but what a medical necessity for transport is. That is where the shysters

get to take advantage of the system and make all privates look bad. They

have found a knowledge deficit in the initial training, take a naive person out

of school and " train " them the wrong or even illegal way to conduct the

documentation aspect of the job.

Whether or not people like it, private EMS is a part of the system and

profession as a whole and is a much larger part than the public model. As such

it

has a greater impact on the fiscal side of it when it is conducted

inappropriately.

[Guest guest]

Andy, your willingness to hire 'whistleblowers,' supposedly inexperienced

medics, and other 'undesirable' types of paramedics is commendable. What's even

more commendable is that I've yet to hear " Beaumont EMS " and " trouble " in the

same sentence.

Everyone always complains about not being able to find a job in EMS -- but at

the same time, I see that Beaumont, Schertz, Austin, Calhoun County, on

County, and others regularly bemoan the lack of qualified applicants.

Kudos for being one of the places that people want to work -- and where

standards still exist. I've spent little time in Beaumont, but y'all's

reputation is one to be proud of. Your medics can care for my family anytime.

-Wes Ogilvie

Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

Wes,

Not wishing to be confrontational here but what evidence do you have that the

industry has or has not done anything to " drive the shysters out " . I hope that

your argument is not that since crimes are still being committed that is proof

that nothing has been done. As an esteemed barrister I am sure that you see the

folly of that line of thinking.

Should we assume that since there is a long list of attorneys being punished and

disbarred then there must be no efforts to drive the shysters out of the legal

profession. Maybe that fact that there is a line of people getting in trouble

and either disbarred or thrown in jail does mean that there is something being

done in both the legal and EMS professions. If no EMS providers were being

raided and prosecuted, I would be more concerned that no one was looking. Could

it be that there are more crooks in both professions than there are people to

chase them down?

Also, in what ways do you see EMS " dramatically " improving if we drive the

shysters out? Pretty bold statement and I hope you are right but I would like

more facts and info about how you arrived at this conclusion.

Dave

ExLngHrn@... wrote:

If the private EMS services would spend half as much time worrying about driving

the shysters out of their midst as they are worrying about their status as

public servants, EMS would improve dramatically.

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[Guest guest]

Dudley,

I'm not saying that we all just follow orders. I'm saying that some do, and

think that merely being an employee protects them. Unfortunately, this

doesn't always work.

My hat's off to the whistleblowers. I'm amazed at the personal courage and

intestinal fortitude that these people show -- and the consequences they

willingly face. And the whistleblowing doesn't just extend to " fly by night "

private services, but monkey business and shennanigans at public employers as

well.

Unfortunately, the failings of some services (both public and private) paint

us with the same broad brush as the people who hate lawyers because of the

ones who advertise on daytime TV.

Mea culpa. It wasn't my intent to go after any individual. I was just

stating that some services ruin our reputation -- and we need to do more to run

these people out.

Regardless, I don't necessarily believe that performing a transfer deserves

the same coercive punishment that assaulting a provider responding to a 911

call. I can't fully explain why, but intuitively, there is a big difference

to me.

-Wes

In a message dated 1/29/2007 8:21:00 PM Central Standard Time,

THEDUDMAN@... writes:

Wes,

Maybe you are hanging out with a different class of EMS people than I

am...but I don't know anyone who " just follows orders " ...we, as EMS

Professionals,

are also required to report illegal, unethical behavior and rules violations.

I know a multitude of folks who have walked out of jobs or reported illegal

behaviors when asked to do illegal things. This list is populated with many

of them too.

As a relative newbie to this industry, I take exception to your broad brush

of the entire industry...using such tactics I might think you personally have

Nifong'ed some innocent individuals today...

We are not clean by any means...but find me any " profession " that

is...self-policed or not...

Dudley

Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

Wes,

Not wishing to be confrontational here but what evidence do you have that

the industry has or has not done anything to " drive the shysters out " . I hope

that your argument is not that since crimes are still being committed that is

proof that nothing has been done. As an esteemed barrister I am sure that you

see the folly of that line of thinking.

Should we assume that since there is a long list of attorneys being punished

and disbarred then there must be no efforts to drive the shysters out of the

legal profession. Maybe that fact that there is a line of people getting in

trouble and either disbarred or thrown in jail does mean that there is

something being done in both the legal and EMS professions. If no EMS providers

were being raided and prosecuted, I would be more concerned that no one was

looking. Could it be that there are more crooks in both professions than there

are people to chase them down?

Also, in what ways do you see EMS " dramatically " improving if we drive the

shysters out? Pretty bold statement and I hope you are right but I would like

more facts and info about how you arrived at this conclusion.

Dave

_ExLngHrn@..._ (mailto:ExLngHrn@...) wrote:

If the private EMS services would spend half as much time worrying about

driving the shysters out of their midst as they are worrying about their status

as public servants, EMS would improve dramatically.

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[Guest guest]

--

On a final note, self-regulation does work. Ask the lawyers, nurses, engineers,

and physicians -- the professions. They are regulated by boards made up of

their profession along with members of the public.

I'm not necessarily saying the privates should " snitch " on one another. However,

I've seen some on this list complain about government regulation interfering

with " free enterprise, " while claiming also that the current system of

regulation is adequate to protect the public. Regardless of the color of our

uniform, our first obligation is to our patient -- not our balance sheets.

And yes, thought processes can be different. There is a mindset difference

between emergency response and transport. It's not a bad thing, just different.

It's like saying that an ER nurse and a school nurse are the same just because

they both possess an RN license. I'd guarantee that neither would feel

completely comfortable in the other's setting.

-Wes Ogilvie

Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

The thought process for all patients is the same. Assess the ABCs, conduct

a primary and secondary assessment, determine your course of action, continue

treatment en route and deliver your patient to their destination.

Again, why should the privates weed out the privates? If privates were to

start doing that to each other, further Mother, Juggs and Speed

competitiveness would emerge. We would then begin to hear phrases like

" intentional tort "

and " disparagement " on a regular basis if the privates " policed " the privates

and it were determined to be unfounded and without merit.

No. the " policing " needs to be left to the regulators not the competitiors.

[Guest guest]

I would answer my esteemed colleague in the following manner:

It is a management issue when employees of any entity, be it public or

private, fail to give excellent service. Yes, it's more direct when you're an

employee of a private service and your conduct is on the line, since you can be

fired more easily than if you are a public employee, but that's a side issue.

When public employees fail to give good service, there are numerous ways in

which they can be " urged " to improve.

So I don't buy the idea that a public service won't necessarily deliver the

same level of customer satisfaction that a private entity might.

There are certainly egregious examples of poor service from public employees.

I have been the recipient of lots of failures of service from government.

But I have also had the same thing happen at Home Depot. So I cannot

generalize.

A well managed system, be it public or private, will provide the best

customer service possible, or it won't survive.

Gene G.

>

> >>Because you work for the city makes you no better, and no more noble than

> a medic working for a private or volunteer service! We all deserve the same

> treatment!<<

>

> I'm late entering this thread, but I will say something in defense of EMS in

> the private sector. Customer service becomes a MUCH bigger concern if your

> livelihood is directly affected by the people you serve. Piss them off, and

> you lose profits.

>

> If you work for a public entity, it isn't so much a concern because the

> person that called 911 is your customer only in the abstract sense.

>

> Of course, YMMV...

>

>

> --

> Grayson, CCEMT-P, etc.

> MEDIC Training Solutions

> http://www.medictrahttp://www.medihttp

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

There is a difference in the environment that we approach. In the 911 arena, we

approach each and every call with a certain amount of trepidation, and from

there we make our assessment, create our treatment plan etc., and put that plan

into action.

Working my part time job, 90% of my calls are planned routine transfers, where

the greatest need is that of my stretcher. It doesn't mean I treat my patients

any less, that I respect them any less, etc.

I also notice that mentality of other services towards me are different

depending on the unit I arrive in. If I arrive in my 911 ambulance, I am looked

upon as an equal, however if I show up in my private service unit, I am not. I

see a different mentality in many that I have worked with as well, a nonchalant

attitude towards the routine transfers, and it shows not only to me, but to

others around them.

There is, as Gene so eloquently described it, a difference which can only be

described as philisophical, one that we may never agree on.

In so much as differences, there are some. The same as there are private

teachers who do not recieve the same benefits, and to the other end of the

spectrum, private security forces overseas that do not receive the same

benefits.

We do need to police ourselves, I have always believed that. If you are not part

of the solution, you are part of the problem. It has to be done in a civilized

fashion too. Complaints need to be made based on law, not on 'competion'. It is

our responsibility to police ourselves. From a more personal note, do we allow

our partner to perform poor or dangerous patient care without intervening?

Without at least bringing it to our supervisors attention? I would hope not. Why

then would we knowningly allow a service to continue to defraud the government?

Apples and oranges? Maybe, but in my haste, it's probably the best analogy I

could think of...

There is no pat easy answer, much of this debate IS philisophical in nature. I

believe, you believe. I think, you think. So much of this career, of this

business is a grey area, that there will forever be heated debate. The debate

over the private services, and the occasional 'turf war' over the same will

remain forever.

I do believe that the privates should be offered protection under the law, and

perhaps the bill should read differently. Or perhaps, just perhaps we should get

confirmation from those writing/introducing the bill as to their intentions.

Just my humble 2 cents worth.

Hatfield FF/EMT-P

www.canyonlakefire-ems.org

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

From: fremsdallas@...

Reply-To: texasems-l

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:54:29 EST

>The thought process for all patients is the same. Assess the ABCs, conduct

>a primary and secondary assessment, determine your course of action, continue

>treatment en route and deliver your patient to their destination.

>

>Again, why should the privates weed out the privates? If privates were to

>start doing that to each other, further Mother, Juggs and Speed

>competitiveness would emerge. We would then begin to hear phrases like

" intentional tort "

>and " disparagement " on a regular basis if the privates " policed " the privates

>and it were determined to be unfounded and without merit.

>

>No. the " policing " needs to be left to the regulators not the competitiors.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sal,

First, what ABOUT when the city engages in dialysis transfers? They make

money on it. Where is it written that municipal services cannot bring in more

money than they expend? The water department is expected to do that? Why

not EMS?

I do not see this discussion as trying to " bring down " any EMT. It is

purely a discussion about what sort of service can best deliver the service that

the public needs and deserves. The same EMTs can work for a municipal service

or a private service, and there's nothing inherently better about either of

them.

Every EMT is, or at least should be, a professional, which means that she or

he will strive to maintain the highest standards regardless of who the

employer is.

Please do not suggest that I am in any way denigrating those EMTs who work

for private services.

My arguments about extensions of enhanced penalties to private EMTs have

nothing whatsoever to do with the value of the medics themselves. It is

entirely

about the philosophy of what governmental powers should be used for what.

I would argue just as vociferously that lawyers should not be made a special

category for enhanced penalties if they are assaulted.

As Wes has so aptly said, why not extend the same enhanced penalties to

assault on a physician, a nurse, a respiratory therapist, a radiology tech, a

phlebotomist, a chiropractor, a veterinarian, an accountant who audits county

funds, a deputy clerk in the county clerk's office, a janitor in the courthouse,

and so forth.

This is not about the relative worth of private vs. public EMTs. It is

about the extension of governmental protection to more and more special interest

groups, without end.

Gene G.

>

> Gene,

> Like I said, what about when the city engages in

> transfers (dialysis)? Now they are out to break even

> or make a profit as opposed to just engaging in 911.

> This is why EMS in Texas is getting nowhere, people

> within our own ranks are bringing us down. Everyone

> should be glad that a bill is being sponsored for our

> own good and safety. No instead we have those that

> would be upset because public is better than private

> or public should only be protected. Maybe TDSHS

> should offer public EMT, private EMT, etc. licenses.

> Salvador Capuchino Jr

> EMT-Paramedic

> --- wegandy1938@wegandy wrote:

>

> > I agree with Mike's analysis. There is no rational

> > reason to mandate

> > enhanced penalties for those who assault private EMS

> > providers, any more than there

> > is a reason to extend such provisions to private

> > plumbers.

> >

> > There is a vast difference between public EMS

> > providers and private ones.

> > Public EMS is not profit driven, although it usually

> > must meet budgetary

> > limitations. Private EMS is a for-profit

> > enterprise, and as such, is a business

> > just as WalMart is. It warrants no special legal

> > status. Private EMS

> > providers do not wear the badge of the state.

> > (Well, they may, but their badges are

> > bogus.).

> >

> > Private EMS employers enjoy many privileges that

> > plumbers do not. As Mike

> > points out, they can have ambulances that can run

> > with lights and sirens and

> > violate the traffic laws, and so forth. They are

> > responsible for their

> > employees, and they can purchase insurance to cover

> > their losses from negligent acts.

> > They can purchase health insurance for their

> > employees. They are a

> > business, and not a governmental entity. So they

> > do not qualify for governmental

> > immunities.

> >

> > I see no reason that any private EMS service not the

> > contracted exclusive

> > provider for a city or county should have any

> > emergency rights whatsoever.

> > Texas must address the plethora of bogus EMS

> > services at some time, and now is the

> > best time to do it.

> >

> > When there are over 100 EMS services in Dallas

> > County, and 200 in

> > County, things are seriously out of control.

> >

> > I do think that if a private contractor has the

> > exclusive right to provide

> > EMS for a city or county, or both, that there should

> > be some provision to afford

> > that service recognition as a quasi governmental

> > entity, but it should be

> > limited, if the provider is a for profit company.

> >

> > There are many issues involved with private EMS

> > companies, but they ought not

> > to enjoy special status given to governmental

> > entities.

> >

> > Gene G.

> > In a message dated 1/24/07 10:36:01 PM,

> > paramedicop@paramedic writes:

> >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > On Jan 24, 2007, at 9:52 PM, Weinzapfel

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > > Fact, everyone who takes the time to get into

> > this line of PUBLIC

> > > > SERVICE, Private, public or not, is a SERVANT to

> > whom ever calls,

> > > > where ever it is, and it should make no

> > difference the provider

> > > > they chose to work for.

> > >

> > > We both know that's not true. Private EMS

> > companies exist to make

> > > money. Profit. They serve to do it, but they exist

> > not for the

> > > public good, but to make money for the owners,

> > founders or stockholders.

> > >

> > > > Fact, they are sent expected to deliver the best

> > care possible

> > > > without prejudice etc., and they all deserve to

> > be free from

> > > > potential harm or at least know that if they are

> > violated the

> > > > violator will be punished.

> > >

> > > Which he/she will. Class A Misdemeanor assault,

> > just like any other

> > > " regular " person that gets assaulted. If it

> > involves serious bodily

> > > injury or death, it becomes a felony, just like

> > any other " regular "

> > > person that gets assaulted.

> > >

> > > > If there is any chance anyone is looking at

> > limiting protection we

> > > > should all be worried. Remember most bad guys

> > don't differentiate

> > > > between Private or Government employees; we wear

> > the same patch for

> > > > level of EMS certification, and we all bleed

> > red.

> > >

> > > Maybe that's where you're lost. Nobody is looking

> > at limiting

> > > protection. People are looking at creating yet

> > another " exception "

> > > where someone gets punished MORE, not LESS.

> > Assault is still

> > > assault, and still a criminal act. If you pass

> > this, why not make it

> > > the same for the ticket taker at the movies? He

> > takes tickets from

> > > the public to provide entertainment. How about UPS

> > drivers? They

> > > deliver packages to the public. Maybe pizza

> > delivery guys - they

> > > deliver pizza to the public.

> > >

> > > The fact that the public can't distinguish between

> > private and public

> > > EMS providers is indicative of several other

> > problems, the first of

> > > which is that they don't know there's no

> > " requirement " that their

> > > government provide them with service at all, and

> > no idea that private

> > > EMS providers work for for-profit companies who

> > must, as a matter of

> > > finance, maintain a balance sheet " in the black "

> > vs running on

> > > government funds (i.e. taxes, approved and paid

> > directly by the

> > > public). It's also indicative of the problem that

> > we allow private

> > > providers to operate emergency vehicles - EMS is

> > the *only* public

> > > service that does so. There are NO private police

> > and NO private

> > > fire departments in Texas. Private EMS providers

> > cannot get the

> > > " Texas Exempt " license plates... there's a reason

> > for that - they're

> > > PRIVATE providers, not public. We've allowed the

> > public to slip into

> > > apathy, and through a lack of effort to " sell " EMS

> > as a service to

> > > the public, have allowed (and in some places,

> > 'required') private

> > > providers to slip into the gap we created. I'm not

> > saying that

> > > private providers don't do a good job filling the

> > gap - just that we

> > > should do as little as possible to ENCOURAGE the

> > gap, and this law

> > > ENCOURAGES the gap by making private and public

> > EMS providers equal,

> > > which they shouldn't be if we really want the

> > public to see EMS as a

> > > public service that *must* be provided rather than

> > a " choice " between

> > > providing and not providing, and allowing

> > profiteers to benefit from

> > > a lack of public understanding and interest.

> > >

> > > > This could be bad for everyone in the industry

> > as a whole....

> > > Why? It doesn't decriminalize assault, it just

> > doesn't give that

> > > extra " oomph " for pummeling a public servant.

> > >

> > > Mike

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Sal, your arguments are not persuasive.

If a municipality undertakes to do all the transfers, it will have to commit

the resources to do it. To argue " what if " makes no sense.

If a private service can make money on transfers, then a municipal or county

service can do it also.

It's not true that a municipality can never take in more money than it

expends for services.

It's entirely proper for a municipal service to make money, so long as it

goes into the general fund. That's why cities have fees for certain services.

They may make money on some, lose money on others, but it all goes into the

municipal coffers.

Municipalities have broad powers. They certainly have the power to limit

private services' access to medical transport, as has been upheld in the courts

in Texas, and many of them do it.

If Anytown, Texas, were to take over all EMS calls, including all transfers,

it would end up hiring the same folks that the privates had hired. So it has

nothing to do with the value or talents of the folks who work for either

public or private EMS services. It's all about where the money goes.

Gene

>

> When there are over 100 EMS services in Dallas County,

> and

> 200 in County, things are seriously out of

> control.

>

> Question is if this were to happen, are the public 911

> providers ready to take the hundreds of patients who

> need an ambulance to go to dialysis and doctor's

> appointments to their respective appointments? I

> think not because then they will not be available to

> cover their 911 calls. And if they do, now they are

> going to cross that line you talk about between profit

> and nonprofit. Now they are going to make a profit

> which should disqualify them from any protection

> afforded an employee who works for an entity who is

> not out to make a profit. I know of one city that has

> one ambulance and yet they are out doing dialysis

> transfers. If they happen to be on a transfer when a

> 911 call comes in then they ask for mutual aid froma

> nother city or private provider. Is this fair? This

> service is actually out to make a profit because it is

> a small city.

> Salvador Capuchino Jr

> EMT-Paramedic

> --- wegandy1938@wegandy wrote:

>

> > I agree with Mike's analysis. There is no rational

> > reason to mandate

> > enhanced penalties for those who assault private EMS

> > providers, any more than there

> > is a reason to extend such provisions to private

> > plumbers.

> >

> > There is a vast difference between public EMS

> > providers and private ones.

> > Public EMS is not profit driven, although it usually

> > must meet budgetary

> > limitations. Private EMS is a for-profit

> > enterprise, and as such, is a business

> > just as WalMart is. It warrants no special legal

> > status. Private EMS

> > providers do not wear the badge of the state.

> > (Well, they may, but their badges are

> > bogus.).

> >

> > Private EMS employers enjoy many privileges that

> > plumbers do not. As Mike

> > points out, they can have ambulances that can run

> > with lights and sirens and

> > violate the traffic laws, and so forth. They are

> > responsible for their

> > employees, and they can purchase insurance to cover

> > their losses from negligent acts.

> > They can purchase health insurance for their

> > employees. They are a

> > business, and not a governmental entity. So they

> > do not qualify for governmental

> > immunities.

> >

> > I see no reason that any private EMS service not the

> > contracted exclusive

> > provider for a city or county should have any

> > emergency rights whatsoever.

> > Texas must address the plethora of bogus EMS

> > services at some time, and now is the

> > best time to do it.

> >

> > When there are over 100 EMS services in Dallas

> > County, and 200 in

> > County, things are seriously out of control.

> >

> > I do think that if a private contractor has the

> > exclusive right to provide

> > EMS for a city or county, or both, that there should

> > be some provision to afford

> > that service recognition as a quasi governmental

> > entity, but it should be

> > limited, if the provider is a for profit company.

> >

> > There are many issues involved with private EMS

> > companies, but they ought not

> > to enjoy special status given to governmental

> > entities.

> >

> > Gene G.

> > In a message dated 1/24/07 10:36:01 PM,

> > paramedicop@paramedic writes:

> >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > On Jan 24, 2007, at 9:52 PM, Weinzapfel

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > > Fact, everyone who takes the time to get into

> > this line of PUBLIC

> > > > SERVICE, Private, public or not, is a SERVANT to

> > whom ever calls,

> > > > where ever it is, and it should make no

> > difference the provider

> > > > they chose to work for.

> > >

> > > We both know that's not true. Private EMS

> > companies exist to make

> > > money. Profit. They serve to do it, but they exist

> > not for the

> > > public good, but to make money for the owners,

> > founders or stockholders.

> > >

> > > > Fact, they are sent expected to deliver the best

> > care possible

> > > > without prejudice etc., and they all deserve to

> > be free from

> > > > potential harm or at least know that if they are

> > violated the

> > > > violator will be punished.

> > >

> > > Which he/she will. Class A Misdemeanor assault,

> > just like any other

> > > " regular " person that gets assaulted. If it

> > involves serious bodily

> > > injury or death, it becomes a felony, just like

> > any other " regular "

> > > person that gets assaulted.

> > >

> > > > If there is any chance anyone is looking at

> > limiting protection we

> > > > should all be worried. Remember most bad guys

> > don't differentiate

> > > > between Private or Government employees; we wear

> > the same patch for

> > > > level of EMS certification, and we all bleed

> > red.

> > >

> > > Maybe that's where you're lost. Nobody is looking

> > at limiting

> > > protection. People are looking at creating yet

> > another " exception "

> > > where someone gets punished MORE, not LESS.

> > Assault is still

> > > assault, and still a criminal act. If you pass

> > this, why not make it

> > > the same for the ticket taker at the movies? He

> > takes tickets from

> > > the public to provide entertainment. How about UPS

> > drivers? They

> > > deliver packages to the public. Maybe pizza

> > delivery guys - they

> > > deliver pizza to the public.

> > >

> > > The fact that the public can't distinguish between

> > private and public

> > > EMS providers is indicative of several other

> > problems, the first of

> > > which is that they don't know there's no

> > " requirement " that their

> > > government provide them with service at all, and

> > no idea that private

> > > EMS providers work for for-profit companies who

> > must, as a matter of

> > > finance, maintain a balance sheet " in the black "

> > vs running on

> > > government funds (i.e. taxes, approved and paid

> > directly by the

> > > public). It's also indicative of the problem that

> > we allow private

> > > providers to operate emergency vehicles - EMS is

> > the *only* public

> > > service that does so. There are NO private police

> > and NO private

> > > fire departments in Texas. Private EMS providers

> > cannot get the

> > > " Texas Exempt " license plates... there's a reason

> > for that - they're

> > > PRIVATE providers, not public. We've allowed the

> > public to slip into

> > > apathy, and through a lack of effort to " sell " EMS

> > as a service to

> > > the public, have allowed (and in some places,

> > 'required') private

> > > providers to slip into the gap we created. I'm not

> > saying that

> > > private providers don't do a good job filling the

> > gap - just that we

> > > should do as little as possible to ENCOURAGE the

> > gap, and this law

> > > ENCOURAGES the gap by making private and public

> > EMS providers equal,

> > > which they shouldn't be if we really want the

> > public to see EMS as a

> > > public service that *must* be provided rather than

> > a " choice " between

> > > providing and not providing, and allowing

> > profiteers to benefit from

> > > a lack of public understanding and interest.

> > >

> > > > This could be bad for everyone in the industry

> > as a whole....

> > > Why? It doesn't decriminalize assault, it just

> > doesn't give that

> > > extra " oomph " for pummeling a public servant.

> > >

> > > Mike

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I am infuriated to see supposedly intelligent, informed, and educated EMS

professionals referring to " private " services as having " dubious management,

ownership and practices " , and references to fraud! That is as lame as saying

all public sector EMS services are great (which we all know is WRONG). You

cannot group all of anything and apply a label and expect it to be true to all

involved. there are good and bad apples in every sector. The private service

I ran for a almost a decade was started because the facilities and much of the

private sector would not use the city 911 service because they were rude, crude

and uncaring, a fact I witnessed personally during ride outs with them while

doing advanced training. Many of the ones trashing private services are the

same ones that preach " working together as EMS professionals " . Talk about

hypocrits! But to read these posts, I see that you don't really count in EMS

unless you work in the public sector! I can assure you

that our private service gave as good, and in many, many instances better care

than the public providers gave. We also did tremendous amounts of free service

- not because we had to because of a duty to act, but because we recognized

needs that were not being met in our community.

Of course all EMS deserves to be included if the HB495 passes - there is no

difference - everyone is doing the same job, regardless of who they are doing it

for. Because you work for the city makes you no better, and no more noble than

a medic working for a private or volunteer service! We all deserve the same

treatment!

---------------------------------

Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get

things done faster.

[Guest guest]

Wes,

Maybe you are hanging out with a different class of EMS people than I am...but I

don't know anyone who " just follows orders " ...we, as EMS Professionals, are also

required to report illegal, unethical behavior and rules violations.

I know a multitude of folks who have walked out of jobs or reported illegal

behaviors when asked to do illegal things. This list is populated with many of

them too.

As a relative newbie to this industry, I take exception to your broad brush of

the entire industry...using such tactics I might think you personally have

Nifong'ed some innocent individuals today...

We are not clean by any means...but find me any " profession " that

is...self-policed or not...

Dudley

Re: HB495-Proposed Bill relating to EMS

Wes,

Not wishing to be confrontational here but what evidence do you have that the

industry has or has not done anything to " drive the shysters out " . I hope that

your argument is not that since crimes are still being committed that is proof

that nothing has been done. As an esteemed barrister I am sure that you see the

folly of that line of thinking.

Should we assume that since there is a long list of attorneys being punished and

disbarred then there must be no efforts to drive the shysters out of the legal

profession. Maybe that fact that there is a line of people getting in trouble

and either disbarred or thrown in jail does mean that there is something being

done in both the legal and EMS professions. If no EMS providers were being

raided and prosecuted, I would be more concerned that no one was looking. Could

it be that there are more crooks in both professions than there are people to

chase them down?

Also, in what ways do you see EMS " dramatically " improving if we drive the

shysters out? Pretty bold statement and I hope you are right but I would like

more facts and info about how you arrived at this conclusion.

Dave

ExLngHrn@... wrote:

If the private EMS services would spend half as much time worrying about driving

the shysters out of their midst as they are worrying about their status as

public servants, EMS would improve dramatically.

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