Re: Breast vs. Formula

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May 31, 1999

Tammy,

VERY well said!!! I agree completely!!

Dana : )

In a message dated 5/31/99 1:16:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

tcp@... writes:

<< So anyway- I do think breast is best- just about 100% of the time. It is

the

food that nature intended babies to have. If you are not mature enough to

get past your inhibitions, then you shouldn't be having children anyway. If

you're so emotionally crippled that you are unable to provide your baby with

nourishment, then what is going to happen to those children in the long run?

I understand that there are women who are unable to breastfeed, for medical

or physical reasons, and I think formula should be available to them- by

prescription.

So I think that our responsibility is more than just supporting b/fing moms

having trouble. I think it is our responsibility to educate the people we

come in contact with and eventually change our society's view of infant

nutrition. It took one generation for breastfeeding to go from the norm to

virtually non-existent. It is possible to reverse this trend in our

generation.

Sorry if this is too radical for y'all

- see why I didn't feel I should post on that board?? Wasn't up for dealing

with flames.

Tammy >>

May 31, 1999

,

Your post was well written. I have just a few comments to make about it. : )

HOWEVER, let's keep this in mind. Breastfeeding is hard. We all know

that. It takes a lot of patience, dedication, and hard work to perfect it.

Some mom's, sadly,

don't have these things.

If a mom doesn't have these things then maybe she should've thought a little

harder about being a mom. I'm sorry to sound harsh but let's face it,

breastfeeding or not it does require patience, dedication and hard work to

raise children! : )

Another thing we should keep in mind is that there is

virtually NO support out there for breastfeeding women unless you search

hard

for it. Some women don't have the resources to attain this help.

While I appreciate what you're saying here, I feel that I need to add... MOST

women can get/find the support if they try. It's really not all that hard.

It's simple if you own a computer (w/ online access) but without it can be

just as easy... there are TONS of books (if you don't have money there's

always the library) : ) and of course there's always LLL. I'm sorry but I

have little sympathy for woman who use ignorance as an excuse for anything! I

mean we all read all we can about pregnancy right? Why shouldn't we do the

same with breastfeeding?? Again, no offense meant towards anyone... I just

feel that everyone should make an effort to educate themselves! : )

In this day in age

we (the majority of women) don't have our mom's, grandmoms, aunts, etc to

turn to for help in this area. They just fed us bottles.

This is true! My dh of all people is the one to ask me if I planned to

breastfeed. he even directed me in the direction of the bf'ing newsgroup!! :

) I'm so thankful to him and wonder what I would've done had he not cared!

It's sad but I would probably have used formula because that's all I had ever

really known. And I'll admit that prior to my husband mentioning it I had

never even thought about bf'ing! However, this is why we need to get the

message out there! We all need to spread the word and try to educate as many

woman as we can! I would've been VERY sad had I formula fed and later

realized all of the benefits of nursing.

Because, like I said...I don't think that breast is

best 100% of the time. A mom needs to judge what is best for HERSELF and

for

HER CHILD. That's not my job. Would you like to be forced to formula feed?

Although I agree that it is a woman's choice to either breastfeed or formula

feed I strongly believe that everyone should at least try to breastfeed. I do

recognize that some woman who ff just aren't aware of the other choices

available to them. I always try very hard not to judge anyone for decisions

that they make. I believe that we all (or at least most of us) try to do what

we believe is best for our children... What I have a problem with however is

women like the ones on that board. Who HAVE access to the information, who

KNOW that's it best to breastfeed but who STILL decide that they either can't

be bothered with breastfeeding or that they are so hung up on their breasts

being sexual and not functional that they just can't bring themselves to do

it. It's time that we stop thinking so much about ourselves and start

thinking more about our children!

Dana -Mommy to Philip ph 9/17/97

May 31, 1999

><< Even under nutritional value, unless breastfeeding is

> absolutely not an option (like the mother is dead!) >>

>

>No then the better option woud be milk from a milk bank.

>

>Amy

So true, Amy, but considering there are only 5 milk banks in the US, and

the milk there is usually so low it is reserved for prescription orders

only, its not probable.

Everyone with milk overrunning your freezers, DONATE IT!

May 31, 1999

,

Why don't you have the option of a homebirth? I am just curious. Nursing in

front of a mirror helps to practice for nursing in public.

Wendi

Re: Breast vs. Formula

From: Mygrdntool@...

In a message dated 5/31/99 10:27:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

angehowe@... writes:

<< What if it were considered assault and battery against the child if he were

given bottles or pacifiers in the hospital against the mothers directions?

Did you know that giving a patient medication against their wishes is

considered assault and battery? Formula, sugar water or any supplement is

only supposed to be given when medically indicated, and at that point is

considered medicine by definition.

>>

I would support that notion. Believe me I was not a happy camper. I

couldn't do rooming-in with Holden because of my C-section I couldn't get out

of bed if he cried in the middle of the night. So, I told the nurses to

bring him to me when he needed feeding or comforting. I said I don't care if

it's 1000 times thru the night...BRING HIM TO ME.

On our last night, he was particularly cranky. After 2 interruptions of

sleep, the nurse asked me if I would like for her to just give him a bottle.

I said " absolutely not, and no pacifiers, I am breastfeeding " Sure enough,

when he was wheeled to my room for the next feeding...there sat the pacifier.

I wish I had the option of having a home birth next time ;-(

<<Support can mean the difference between success and failure. When you

breastfeed in public, you provide educational support to women who have

breastfed babies, bottle fed babies, unborn babies, or no babies.>>

I never thought of that idea. I'm still a little shy and awkward about doing

the NIP thing ;-)

~AManda

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May 31, 1999

> it. It's time that we stop thinking so much about ourselves and start

> thinking more about our children!

>

> Dana -Mommy to Philip ph 9/17/97

Well said, Dana! I also wanted to add that there is a breast vs. bottle

board on http://www.momsonline.com. Some really good, informative

discussions go on there, or used to. I haven't been there in a while. There

is also a breastfeeding support board that could probably benefit from the

wisdom of some people here. You have to register to post, and that place can

be a time-sucker because it is a very busy board, (I speak from experience

here 8o)) but it is a great online community with lots of preggo moms on the

formula/breast fence. There is another Tammy (I'm Tammy C-P there) that

isn't yet a mom, but has some of the best debating skills I've ever seen.

Check it out (no- I don't work for them!)

Tammy

May 31, 1999

Dana,

Very well said. I too have a hard time with ignorance. I was raised in a

very dysfunctional family with many racist attitudes. That is not who I am

today. I have educated myself and made sure that I found out the

information that is out there. I think information is available to anyone

who chooses to look. I will do my part to make breastfeeding even more

accessible to women, but I don't think I have to be secretive or shamed

because someone can't handle my decision to breastfeed. I would never

shame someone for their decision but it seems that frequently breastfeeding

women are shamed by formula feeding women who regret their decision. I am

a proud breastfeeder and I will not hide or shut up for anyone.

Wendi

Re: Breast vs. Formula

From: PhilsGal@...

,

Your post was well written. I have just a few comments to make about it. :

)

HOWEVER, let's keep this in mind. Breastfeeding is hard. We all know

that. It takes a lot of patience, dedication, and hard work to perfect it.

Some mom's, sadly,

don't have these things.

If a mom doesn't have these things then maybe she should've thought a

little

harder about being a mom. I'm sorry to sound harsh but let's face it,

breastfeeding or not it does require patience, dedication and hard work to

raise children! : )

Another thing we should keep in mind is that there is

virtually NO support out there for breastfeeding women unless you search

hard

for it. Some women don't have the resources to attain this help.

While I appreciate what you're saying here, I feel that I need to add...

MOST

women can get/find the support if they try. It's really not all that hard.

It's simple if you own a computer (w/ online access) but without it can be

just as easy... there are TONS of books (if you don't have money there's

always the library) : ) and of course there's always LLL. I'm sorry but I

have little sympathy for woman who use ignorance as an excuse for anything!

I

mean we all read all we can about pregnancy right? Why shouldn't we do the

same with breastfeeding?? Again, no offense meant towards anyone... I just

feel that everyone should make an effort to educate themselves! : )

In this day in age

we (the majority of women) don't have our mom's, grandmoms, aunts, etc to

turn to for help in this area. They just fed us bottles.

This is true! My dh of all people is the one to ask me if I planned to

breastfeed. he even directed me in the direction of the bf'ing newsgroup!!

:

) I'm so thankful to him and wonder what I would've done had he not cared!

It's sad but I would probably have used formula because that's all I had

ever

really known. And I'll admit that prior to my husband mentioning it I had

never even thought about bf'ing! However, this is why we need to get the

message out there! We all need to spread the word and try to educate as

many

woman as we can! I would've been VERY sad had I formula fed and later

realized all of the benefits of nursing.

Because, like I said...I don't think that breast is

best 100% of the time. A mom needs to judge what is best for HERSELF and

for

HER CHILD. That's not my job. Would you like to be forced to formula

feed?

Although I agree that it is a woman's choice to either breastfeed or

formula

feed I strongly believe that everyone should at least try to breastfeed. I

do

recognize that some woman who ff just aren't aware of the other choices

available to them. I always try very hard not to judge anyone for decisions

that they make. I believe that we all (or at least most of us) try to do

what

we believe is best for our children... What I have a problem with however

is

women like the ones on that board. Who HAVE access to the information, who

KNOW that's it best to breastfeed but who STILL decide that they either

can't

be bothered with breastfeeding or that they are so hung up on their breasts

being sexual and not functional that they just can't bring themselves to do

it. It's time that we stop thinking so much about ourselves and start

thinking more about our children!

Dana -Mommy to Philip ph 9/17/97

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June 1, 1999

In a message dated 5/31/99 10:26:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

angehowe@... writes:

<< Seriously, I think breastfeeding is easier than planning a weekend with

formula. I think breastfeeding would be MUCH easier if it were a natural

topic for discussion, just as drinking bottled water is, or how many

bottles a baby takes. Its only hard because we as new moms dont know much

about it. >>

BINGO...you hit the nail right on the head. The majority of BFing moms don't

have family " support " (someone to help them learn how to do it. I bet 1,000

years ago it wasn't this hard ;-)

<<Is she really frustrated *because* it hurts, or because she doesnt know

*why* it hurts, and if she knew how to fix it she would?>>

Does it matter? If it hurts and she doesn't like it and it's going to

prevent her from feeding her baby...it doesn't matter WHY.

<<You *were* forced to formula feed if you werent a breastfed child.>>

You took that out of the meaning. It was meant as would you like to have

been FORCED to formula feed ?

~

June 1, 1999

In a message dated 5/31/99 4:07:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerbs@...

writes:

<<

My main thing is, that I don't want any mother to ever feel like she is not

as good of a parent as I am because of her decision to bottlefeed >>

Thank you Jenn.....excellent point, that's the way I feel ;-)

~

June 1, 1999

> HOWEVER, let's keep this in mind. Breastfeeding is hard. We all know

>that. It takes a lot of patience, dedication, and hard work to perfect it.

>Some mom's, sadly,

> don't have these things.

>

I am not disagreeing with the concept that breastfeeding takes some effort

to learn. But it isnt, or rather shouldnt be hard. It is a LEARNED art.

Think about a toddler eating a banana. Why do we mothers peel them first?

Because they cant? Dont know how? My toddler doesnt know HOW to peel one

but knows that it needs to be peeled... he has seen me do it. He LEARNED

that it needs to be peeled. When he gets a little practice, he will be

peeling them all by himself. But he has to learn how. Its not hard, its

just a learned art. It takes patience to learn and remember that you need

to start at the top and not try to open the whole thing at once. It takes

patience to learn and remember that it works best if you peel a little at a

time so that the whole thing does fall on the floor.

Even if I have to help him do this 100 times, he will learn. He wont give

up eating bananas forever because its too hard. Why? Because he wants

that banana!

My toddler will probably be peeling his own bananas at a younger age than

his siblings, simply because he gets the educational lessons from watching

them do it publicly. And from watching me do it, and dad do it...

Breastfeeding is right up there with bananas as a learned art. Its no more

instinctive to know how to breastfeed than it is for a toddler to know how

to peel a banana. If they have the opportunity to see it be done, and

understand why it needs to be done, they will learn to do it themselves.

If bananas were sold pre-peeled, people would buy them. Gerber sells them

in a 2 ounce jar for the same price as a pound of peeled bananas. Why?

Because some people think its the way its done... they havent seen it done

any other way to know that its either acceptable or possible... or they

hear horror stories about starving children.

Anybody see the analogy here?!

June 1, 1999

In a message dated 6/1/99 12:28:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PhilsGal@...

writes:

<< If a mom doesn't have these things then maybe she should've thought a

little

harder about being a mom. I'm sorry to sound harsh but let's face it,

breastfeeding or not it does require patience, dedication and hard work to

raise children! : ) >>

Without question. But unless breastfeeding has been a breeze for you, you

must understand and acknowledge that this task requires a great deal more.

I can say this because I have had an extremely hard go at it...mainly because

I knew nothing about it from the start.

<< there are TONS of books (if you don't have money there's

always the library) : ) and of course there's always LLL.>>

I'm not trying to make ANY excuses, just throwing out food for thought. Yes,

there are books...I read many while pg and am continuing to do so now...but

there is nothing like " hands on " learning. For instance... I have read 10

books, visited nuymerous websites, and watched videos....and I can't do the

darn cradle hold to save my life. I hope someone @ LLL can show me next week!

I know that there are support groups out there(like LLLI)- now, I didn't @

first. I think those groups need to make themselves more vocal than formula

companies. I wonder5ed why the local LLL didn't leave pamphlets/fliers @ my

OBs or hospital. I would have attended while pg. I suppose that all has to

do with the fact that bfing is still a bit taboo. Perhaps thats where we

need to start....eliminating the stigma. 's NIP suggestion was good ;-)

Sorry for typos & fragments....Holden helped ;-)

~amanda

June 1, 1999

In a message dated 6/1/99 6:53:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

angehowe@... writes:

<< Everyone with milk overrunning your freezers, DONATE IT! >>

How could I find a milk bank in my area?

~

June 1, 1999

>Whoever sade formula was easy hasn't used formula in awhile.

I remember after having formula fed my first child thinking I was

forgetting somthing on one of our first outings. We did an all-day zoo

trip in another town. I remember stuffing about three diapers in my purse,

a little travel pack of wipes, and a cup for my son. As we loaded the kids

in the car my husband turned to me... all I had was my purse. He says, Is

that all you are taking? I felt giggly! lol No monster diaper bags of

formula, water to mix later so it wouldnt spoil, bottles, and STUFF...

When we go for long outings now, we only make sure we also take the

sling... thats about it. I no longer need a diaper bag and I love it!

BTW, shouldnt it be named a bottle bag, since thats what you really need

those for?

June 1, 1999

>I hope that you didn't think that in my post I meant that bm and fm are

even

>remotely similar in quality. I think some people misunderstood my point.

No, I didnt think that... but I think that women are told by authority

figures that they will fail before they ever fail. Just because its not a

cake walk doesnt mean you cant do it.

I really do equate alot of the breastfeeding failures with the way doctors

view childbirth. Just because we have the technology to remove most of the

pain doesnt mean we should. Pain is our bodys way of telling us to do

something, not to ignore it. If you cant feel the difference between labor

contractions and real pain, then you wont know that there is a real problem.

Dont get me wrong either, I am not criticizing anyone who used pain meds in

labor... I had three types of birth: pit with no meds, pit with an

epidural, and fresh air for the third. If I told you that the third

was no more painful than letting my hubby put all his weight on my big toe

every time I had a contraction, you wouldnt believe me. It really wasnt

more painful than that. Uncomfortable, accompanied by a sense of dread

that it was going to happen again in a few more minutes, but also

accompanied by the feeling of relief that it wouldnt last much longer, too.

It was never out of control, as my births with pitocin felt, and I never

felt like I wouldnt survive if I had to feel another one, like I did with

pit.

In fact, one of my neighbors (three c-sections, all formula fed) came with

us to check me in and take my kids to another friends house... came back to

keep me company and ended up staying for the whole birth as I never got to

a point of desperate panic -- like I did with pitocin. She was caught by

surprise when I told them I was going to push, and there popped the head.

June 1, 1999

>Like I said, I haven't been to the board...so I can't judge from that

>standpoint ;-)

Dont bother going to look for those messages... the whole discussion, 60

messages, were deleted!

June 1, 1999

>If a mom doesn't have these things then maybe she should've thought a little

>harder about being a mom. I'm sorry to sound harsh but let's face it,

>breastfeeding or not it does require patience, dedication and hard work to

>raise children! : )

>

But it doesnt always work that way, Dana. My first and third babies came

while I was actively trying to prevent a pregnancy. Some women dont become

mothers by choice. I was certainly thrilled that I was picked but I had

a long way to go to learn to be patient... and it was something I had to

want to learn, too.

>While I appreciate what you're saying here, I feel that I need to add...

MOST

>women can get/find the support if they try. It's really not all that hard.

>

Dana, most women are told by their doctors, before they get an opportunity

to feel that they need help, that they have already failed at

breastfeeding. For whatever reason, US doctors are hung up on that scale,

particularly the two week check up. If your baby hasnt hit the magic mark

of his birth weight or more, then breastfeeding gets scrapped.

Some doctors also perceive some mothers questions about starting solids as

mothers seeking permission to get an award for enduring breastfeeding as

long as they have (3-4 months) and happily pronounce them good mothers who

get permission to stop breastfeeding and start solids and formula, or juice.

My own doctor, on s one year check up said that it was OK to start

cows milk and start weaning! She has told some of the mothers in my LLL

group that she would never think of nursing a child (she doesnt have any

yet) *that long!*

Support is really hard to come by. Most doctors only give lip service and

say Breastfeeding is Best, but few really mean it.

>I would've been VERY sad had I formula fed and later

>realized all of the benefits of nursing.

>

This is usually how it happens... I know that when I started looking more

critically at the information I had learned, both as a student nurse and as

a mother, about both formula and breastfeeding, I was angry and felt

betrayed by people I should have been able to trust for impartiality. It

wasnt there, and it wont ever be there as long as mothers are happy to get

those Welcome Addition diaper bags, free cans of formula, and to see when

their baby is due on those cute little OB calendars given to the docs by

formula companies.

June 1, 1999

In a message dated 6/1/99 2:05:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

naturebaby@... writes:

<< ,

Why don't you have the option of a homebirth? I am just curious. Nursing

in front of a mirror helps to practice for nursing in public.

Wendi >>

Wendi~

There is something wrong with the positioning of my cervix. During Holden's

birth we learned that it is in a position which doesn't allow a baby to drop

down into my pelvis, which, obviously, is necessary for natural birth. I

don't fully understand how it all works...but I know that this also makes it

difficult to get a good reading on a PAP smear.

For this reason, I had a c-section with Holden and will do so with my future

children.

It was very disappointing to find out. I would have loved to participate in

a home water birth. But I'd much rather have a healthy baby ;-)

~

Thanks for the tip on NIP. I got some practice this weekend in front of

family members. I've also gotten the Lamaze shaul which should help. I'm

working up to be able to do it perfectly comfortably in 2 weeks for when we

begin going on out summer day trips! I think If/when I learn the cradle hold

that should make it easier too ;-)

June 1, 1999

In a message dated 6/1/99 7:36:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

angehowe@... writes:

<< Anybody see the analogy here?! >>

GREAT ANALOGY THERE!!

Cristina - who peels the bananas than open the jars!!

June 1, 1999

In a message dated 6/1/99 8:46:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

Mygrdntool@... writes:

<< I know that there are support groups out there(like LLLI)- now, I didn't @

first. I think those groups need to make themselves more vocal than formula

companies. I wonder5ed why the local LLL didn't leave pamphlets/fliers @ my

OBs or hospital. I would have attended while pg. >>

just a few notes on LLL & advertising. We have to be very suttle when

promoting ourselves. We do send notices to MD'S, but we can not make them set

them out. I think the " guilt factor " lies in here somewhere, heaven for bid

we make a mom guilty for not BF!! Also, the formula companies are so

prevalent in Hospital & clinic because they give $$ to them & hospitals have

to display them. That is why Baby Friendly is so hard to get established.

Unfortunatly it is hard to get $$ for BF education, there is not way to sell

it & make a profit to go do advertising!

Cristina

June 1, 1999

,

Does it matter? If it hurts and she doesn't like it and it's going to

prevent her from feeding her baby...it doesn't matter WHY.

It definitely does matter why. I have know a few bf women who almost

stopped because of pain and were completely ready to switch to formula.

They found out that the latch was wrong, fixed the problems and went on to

have extensive bf relationships. If you are having pain that you don't

think will ever go away you would stop doing what is causing you pain, but

if you knew that you could continue painfree by doing it different it would

give you hope.

Wendi

June 1, 1999

,

The reason LLL doesn't have fliers in OB offices is because LLL is a

volunteer org. I am trying to become a leader and if I want those

pamphlets in the offices I will have to spend several days calling to get

permission and then driving around to deliver them. We don't have a

multimillion dollar advertising campaign like formula companies. BTW I

have breastfed two children and still can't do the cradle hold. I think

that it is harder if you have large breasts, just as I can't nurse while

walking around. Don't beat yourself up it might not be the right hold for

you.

Wendi

Re: Breast vs. Formula

From: Mygrdntool@...

In a message dated 6/1/99 12:28:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

PhilsGal@...

writes:

<< If a mom doesn't have these things then maybe she should've thought a

little

harder about being a mom. I'm sorry to sound harsh but let's face it,

breastfeeding or not it does require patience, dedication and hard work to

raise children! : ) >>

Without question. But unless breastfeeding has been a breeze for you, you

must understand and acknowledge that this task requires a great deal more.

I can say this because I have had an extremely hard go at it...mainly

because

I knew nothing about it from the start.

<< there are TONS of books (if you don't have money there's

always the library) : ) and of course there's always LLL.>>

I'm not trying to make ANY excuses, just throwing out food for thought.

Yes,

there are books...I read many while pg and am continuing to do so now...but

there is nothing like " hands on " learning. For instance... I have read 10

books, visited nuymerous websites, and watched videos....and I can't do the

darn cradle hold to save my life. I hope someone @ LLL can show me next

week!

I know that there are support groups out there(like LLLI)- now, I didn't @

first. I think those groups need to make themselves more vocal than

formula

companies. I wonder5ed why the local LLL didn't leave pamphlets/fliers @

my

OBs or hospital. I would have attended while pg. I suppose that all has

to

do with the fact that bfing is still a bit taboo. Perhaps thats where we

need to start....eliminating the stigma. 's NIP suggestion was good

;-)

Sorry for typos & fragments....Holden helped ;-)

~amanda

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June 1, 1999

,

I would get a second opinion because I have the same thing and my daughter

didn't drop into my pelvis until I started pushing. It is virtually

impossible to see my cervix for a pap smear. I have given birth naturally

to both of my children. It is something worth getting a second opinion

about especially if you really wanted a water birth. Just my .02 sorry if

you have already done this.

Wendi

Re: Breast vs. Formula

From: Mygrdntool@...

In a message dated 6/1/99 2:05:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

naturebaby@... writes:

<< ,

Why don't you have the option of a homebirth? I am just curious. Nursing

in front of a mirror helps to practice for nursing in public.

Wendi >>

Wendi~

There is something wrong with the positioning of my cervix. During

Holden's

birth we learned that it is in a position which doesn't allow a baby to

drop

down into my pelvis, which, obviously, is necessary for natural birth. I

don't fully understand how it all works...but I know that this also makes

it

difficult to get a good reading on a PAP smear.

For this reason, I had a c-section with Holden and will do so with my

future

children.

It was very disappointing to find out. I would have loved to participate

in

a home water birth. But I'd much rather have a healthy baby ;-)

~

Thanks for the tip on NIP. I got some practice this weekend in front of

family members. I've also gotten the Lamaze shaul which should help. I'm

working up to be able to do it perfectly comfortably in 2 weeks for when we

begin going on out summer day trips! I think If/when I learn the cradle

hold

that should make it easier too ;-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Come join one of over 150,000 e-mail communities at ONElist!

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