Guest guest Posted September 3, 2000 Report Share Posted September 3, 2000 Hello all. Guess what. I just went to dogpile to look for 12 step free zone like I have many times in the past. What I got back was.....all AA sites. Help! How can I get back to 12 step free?? I have a friend that wants to see it (and I'm irritated beyond belief!) Thanks for your help Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2000 Report Share Posted September 3, 2000 One of the reasons Dr. Szaz is so frequently quoted here is because his views lend themselves readily to being interpreted to include cohersion in treatment of addictions which according to this country is a mental disorder. The further his ideas propagate the quicker an end to cohersive addictions treatment or forced XA. I firmly believe that. If our arguments are based on his work, which they have been on occasion, by a few of this lists members, then I believe questioning the association between he and the CofS is fair game and on topic. I agree that a letter from this group wouldn't be appropriate. I believe Dr. Szaz to be what Scientologists refer to as a squirrel. Someone who distances themselves from the church proper after involvement with it. As I've already offered my opinions and some of the information from which I've based it and as I'm not quoting the doctor I feel no need to disprove my opinions. If the Dr. wanted to quiet the speculation, which judging from Dr. Schaler's response has happened previously, he would have taken the time to do so. AFAIK he hasn't. So far I've seen: A denial by Dr. Schaler of Dr. S's connection with the ideology of CofS which is patently untrue given that they share many views as they relate to the cohersive nature of the psychiatric community which culminated in his being cofounder of the organization funded by the CofS namely CCHR. This btw from the same dr who himself has taken pains to differentiate himself from Dr. Szaz. " I've no interest in being a second-rate Szaz. In short, I have committed much of my life over the past ten years to teaching college students about the dangers that the therapeutic state poses to democracy in our contemporary society. In order to prevent totalitarianism we must be vigilant regarding the " pedigree of ideas, " as Lord Acton put it, leading to totalitarianism. In this sense, Tom and I are similarly popular and unpopular. However, as Sinatra once sang it, I did it my way. " I've seen first and second hand accounts, from former cult members, of the connection between Dr Szaz and CofS from as early as they can remember from within the cult. I agree that this gives, at best, circumstantial evidence of concordance between the two. Some might look at this evidence and deny the possibility of further involvement with the church. I look at it and not only see the possibility but see the possible ramifications on the credibility of his work. In any event it's more than anyone, with a contrary view point has offered to date. To include Dr. Szaz AFAIK. What credibility does Dr. Szaz have if he's thought of as a Scientology Lackey? Either way I wanted to know what I was dealing with in regards to Dr. Szaz. One way or another I'm not averse to supporting Dr. Szaz' work. I think it's extremely important to everyone being forced into XA for various reasons. I just wanted to know if a CofS disclaimer needed to accompany that support. > Re: Cult Busters > > > > I think the issue of Dr. Szasz's ties with the Scientology cult > are far enough removed from the purposes of this group that a quasi- > official letter would not be appopriate. > > For those who feel a particular ideological affinity for Dr. > Szasz's views a personal letter might be in order. > > If Szasz was prominent in opposing AA coercion then we should > raise our concerns. Or if he were being proposed as a board member or > advisory council member for an anti-AA organization, then we might > need to know more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2000 Report Share Posted September 4, 2000 Jim: The term " Cult Buster " was mine no theirs. They have their own objective system (nine phases SP1 - SP9) to indicate the level of animosity the CofS has for them. Based on CofS actions against them. I tend to agree with you that the term cult buster is sensationalistic not unlike the way I use the term Planet of the AApes. (wish that one were originally mine) ly I'm thinking maybe I could copyright it (Cult Buster). I'm thinking I'll create the International Cult Buster Association (ICBA) and give people awards for their efforts along those lines. Critic doesn't begin to describe the extent of personal involvement of a Cult Buster. A critic criticizes a cult buster thoroughly discredits. Copyright © 2000 Arroyo for the International Cult Buster Association (ICBA). All rights reserved > Re: Cult Busters > > I was pointing out that > *to me* " cult buster " is a loaded, newspeak perversion of language on par > with " Drug Czar. " Both terms are common--I wasn't trying to > correct or mock > you. " cult buster " is an emotionally charged way of saying " critic. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2000 Report Share Posted September 4, 2000 , I agree with you that Dr. Szasz's opinions concerning psychiatric coercion and abuse are connected to 12-step coercion issues. I don't necessarily agree that Dr. Szasz has not, sometime in the past, tried to 'quiet the speculations'. Dr. Schaler either may not be aware of his efforts (although this is porbably unlikely since he maintains a Szasz site), or Dr. Schaler may not have mentioned any verbal efforts (as opposed to 'taking a stand' as he did with Breggin). The fact that Dr. Schaler maintains a Szasz website would indicate to me that, while he may differentiate himself from him, he also highly respects him. I also agree with Jim here that much of what I am saying is conjecture...and, it really bothers me that I don't have a real answer as I deeply respect the work of Dr. Szasz. Ellen > As I've already offered my opinions and some of the information from which > I've based it and as I'm not quoting the doctor I feel no need to disprove > my opinions. If the Dr. wanted to quiet the speculation, which judging from > Dr. Schaler's response has happened previously, he would have taken the time > to do so. AFAIK he hasn't. > > So far I've seen: A denial by Dr. Schaler of Dr. S's connection with the > ideology of CofS which is patently untrue given that they share many views > as they relate to the cohersive nature of the psychiatric community which > culminated in his being cofounder of the organization funded by the CofS > namely CCHR. This btw from the same dr who himself has taken pains to > differentiate himself from Dr. Szaz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2000 Report Share Posted September 4, 2000 Kayleigh, I have sent you an off-line response. I do want to say publicly that there is a connection between 12-step coercion (and the disease model of addiction), and the more global views of Dr. Szasz concerning mental illness and psychiatric abuses. Ellen kayleighs@... writes: > I admit I am also puzzled why Dr. Szasz's beliefs about scientology > should concern us. I guess most of us agree that we do not want to > regard addiction as a disease, to the extent that addiction as > disease > and AA as treatment have been bound together. Yet we all know that > AA > type approaches are not employed for other entities that we would all > agree are diseases. To me, whether or not addiction=disease is a > futile point to argue. The question should be not whether it's a > disease, but what to do about it. > > We've debated whether or not AA should be considered a cult, and > frankly, I think Chaz Bufe came up with the best answer to that > question: community-based AA is not a cult (by a hair), and > " institutional " (i.e., treatment based) AA is a cult. I don't think > there is any quarrel that scientology is a cult, is there? I have > read a lot of the sites that people have posted and am absolutely > appalled at the practices that scientologists engage in and what they > apparently believe. > > Aren't we getting away from the subject of how to free ourselves from > 12-step thinking? Will it assist us in that endeavor to know whether > Dr. Szasz identifies himself as a scientologist or supports the > practices and beliefs of scientology? > > Actually, I can't believe that Dr. Szasz would ally himself with the > practices of scientology, to the extent that they actually consist of > a different method of brain-shrinking than contemporary psychiatry > endorses, and additionally, are far more coercive than most > psychiatric practices are. Additionally, though there isn't really a > logical connection here, I can't believe that a man who doesn't > believe in mental illness could accept the view that the various > malaises in our lives are caused by the existence of thetan " ghosts " > in our bodies, who have survived for 76 billion or trillion years. > > People ally themselves with other groups who have similar ideas, and > it's certainly true that if Dr. Szasz and scientology find themselves > on the same side of the psychiatric issue, then Dr. Szasz runs the > risk of being identified with other scientological beliefs. But just > because he aligns himself with them on that issue, doesn't mean he > does agree with everything else they do and believe, no matter how > unfortunate that alliance may seem to us. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2000 Report Share Posted September 4, 2000 ..thanks for the clarification! arroyoh@... writes: > Hi Ellen: > > I didn't say that Dr. Szaz hasn't attempted to quiet it I said as far as I > know he hasn't it's really not the same. > AFAIK - As far as I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2000 Report Share Posted September 4, 2000 Hi Ellen: I didn't say that Dr. Szaz hasn't attempted to quiet it I said as far as I know he hasn't it's really not the same. AFAIK - As far as I know. > Re: Re: Cult Busters > > > > , > > I agree with you that Dr. Szasz's opinions concerning psychiatric > coercion > and abuse are connected to 12-step coercion issues. I don't necessarily > agree that Dr. Szasz has not, sometime in the past, tried to 'quiet the > speculations'. Dr. Schaler either may not be aware of his > efforts (although > this is porbably unlikely since he maintains a Szasz site), or > Dr. Schaler > may not have mentioned any verbal efforts (as opposed to 'taking > a stand' as > he did with Breggin). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2000 Report Share Posted September 4, 2000 Tommy, Yes, I too am puzzled. This was a good opportunity to 'hear it from the horse's mouth'. I felt that there were some pretty strong objections to Dr. Szasz's theories, based on his alleged connections, and I also felt that the objectors were entitled to voice their concerns to Dr. Szasz himself. Oh well. The reason I admire him so much is not because I agree with his thinking (although I do), it is because he has had the courage to speak against what he sees as wrong, despite the fact that he has been speaking against both his profession, and his cohorts. Judging by the level of criticism I have seen on this list in connection to his theories (this existed even before the Scientology connection issue was brought up), it would seem likely that even today, the mental health profession at large feels pretty much the same way. Despite this, he persists. I, on the other hand, wanted to 'turn tail and run'. I would love to have even 10% of his courage. This has brought up another point in my mind: Is it possible that we each of us has to hold onto a central belief that there is some authority (institution or otherwise) out there who has the answers? If so, could this be why 12-steppers are so combative when confronted with the fallacies inherent in the 12-step ideology? This is like someone trying to take away what each thinks is finally 'the answer'. I see some similarities here, if this is so. Thinkers like Szasz, Peele, and Schaler contend that there is no answer out there. Could it be that this is very threatening to the facade of security? Just a thought... perkinstommy@... writes: > Ellen, > > I'm puzzled also. At one point I had heard enough about what Szasz > had " not " done, as if anyone here knows everything he has done. That > is why I offered to forward the letter. I thought that, rather than > taking up for Szasz, I would see if he wanted to take up for himself. > He is a big boy. As far as Szasz being prominent in opposing AA > coercion, he is perhaps the most prominent of all time, but has fried > many many other big fish also. AA coercion is but one of many types > of coercion in the Therapeutic State. The quote in my website from > " Cerimonial Chemistry " was written before young Stanton Peele and > Archie Brodsky ever even published " Love and Addiction. " Tell me > Szasz didn't hit the nail on the head with that one. There is also > another good slam dunk of AA coercion in CC that I cannot quote off > the top of my head. > > Tommy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2000 Report Share Posted September 4, 2000 Ellen, I'm puzzled also. At one point I had heard enough about what Szasz had " not " done, as if anyone here knows everything he has done. That is why I offered to forward the letter. I thought that, rather than taking up for Szasz, I would see if he wanted to take up for himself. He is a big boy. As far as Szasz being prominent in opposing AA coercion, he is perhaps the most prominent of all time, but has fried many many other big fish also. AA coercion is but one of many types of coercion in the Therapeutic State. The quote in my website from " Cerimonial Chemistry " was written before young Stanton Peele and Archie Brodsky ever even published " Love and Addiction. " Tell me Szasz didn't hit the nail on the head with that one. There is also another good slam dunk of AA coercion in CC that I cannot quote off the top of my head. Tommy > Stuart, > > I would be inclined to agree with you that this issue appears to be > far-removed from AA coercion issues. However, Dr. Szasz is at the forefront > of the viewpoint that alcoholism (and drug addiction) are not real illnesses, > but are, in fact, personal choices. His thinking diametrically opposes the > disease-model which is the basis of AA philosophy. It is this connection > that I consider to be of importance to us here. > > Also, I am puzzled. Your comments are part of the reason that this issue as > been pursued. I enclose them below. > > >> I think the issue of Dr. Szasz's ties with the Scientology cult > are far enough removed from the purposes of this group that a quasi- > official letter would not be appopriate. > > For those who feel a particular ideological affinity for Dr. > Szasz's views a personal letter might be in order. > > If Szasz was prominent in opposing AA coercion then we should > raise our concerns. Or if he were being proposed as a board member or > advisory council member for an anti-AA organization, then we might > need to know more.<< > > > >>Ellen, > > Thanks for following up with Schaller and for sharing his > reply. > > I have to say that Schaller's second take on the issues is, if > anything, even less satisfactory than the first. > > Rather than explaining or defending Szasz's ties with the > Scientologists, Schaler fogs the issue with the allegation that the > critics " are most likely upset about other things he has written. " > Even if true, that would in no way give Szasz a blank check to avoid > responsibility for making an alliance with a dangerous organization > like the Scientologists. > > Schaler says that Szasz has not written anything critical of the > Scientologists, but also hasn't criticized AA or other cults. I > don't think that will do since Szasz has apparently worked with the > Scientologists in their front group the CCHR for a very long period. > > Schaler's first email, moreover, seems to accept the Scientologists > contention that they are a religion. That is something which critics > very much dispute. They view the CO$ as being an elaborate criminal > conspiracy which when it suits its purposes claims to be a religion > or science, but which is neither.<< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2000 Report Share Posted September 4, 2000 For the new members here is my site: http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2000 Report Share Posted September 4, 2000 > Actually, I can't believe that Dr. Szasz would ally himself with the > practices of scientology, to the extent that they actually consist of > a different method of brain-shrinking than contemporary psychiatry > endorses, and additionally, are far more coercive than most > psychiatric practices are. Kayleigh, I don't believe that he does either, but you have brought up something that may come into the picture. How can Scientology be more coercive than institutional psychiatry when a person can walk away from Scientology, and in many cases are incarcerated or under threat of incarceration by institutional psychiatry including coerced AA. Tommy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2000 Report Share Posted September 4, 2000 The connection between Szasz' anti-coercion stance and the same stance vis-a-vis AA. > Huh??? > > kayleighs@m... writes: > > > Thanks to you and a couple others, I see that now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2000 Report Share Posted September 4, 2000 As to scientology's coercion, read Steve Fishman's site. As to institutional psychiatry, for the most part, a patient's HMO will dropkick him right out of that hospital ASAP. Do you know of anyone hospitalized against their will who wasn't a private pay? > > > > Actually, I can't believe that Dr. Szasz would ally himself with > the > > practices of scientology, to the extent that they actually consist > of > > a different method of brain-shrinking than contemporary psychiatry > > endorses, and additionally, are far more coercive than most > > psychiatric practices are. > > Kayleigh, > > I don't believe that he does either, but you have brought up > something > that may come into the picture. How can Scientology be more coercive > than institutional psychiatry when a person can walk away from > Scientology, and in many cases are incarcerated or under threat of > incarceration by institutional psychiatry including coerced AA. > > Tommy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2000 Report Share Posted September 5, 2000 Hi Kayleigh, > As to institutional psychiatry, for the most part, a patient's HMO > will dropkick him right out of that hospital ASAP. > > Do you know of anyone hospitalized against their will who wasn't a > private pay? > Absolutely. Don't forget that the majority of americans have insurance of some kind: Private, HMO, Medicaid, and Medicare. Most people would be shocked to learn that, in general (there is also state involvement), Medicaid is great insurance--certainly better than most HMO policies for non-indigents. I am not saying that this is neccesarily a bad thing, but it demonstrates how screwed up the system is. Psych hospitals are very creative (and mercinary) when it comes to playing the insurance game. Rather than long admisions, they try to rotate their mealtickets with multiple short term admisions interspersed with longer rides at outpatient facilities that are ussually another arm of the business. This is not including the public mental health center racket which is another topic. Have you read the stories about the American gulag for rich kids? Well, the richer the kid, the worse the prognosis. The same goes for psych care, only it's the rich insurance coverage here. The better your insurance coverage, the more likely you will be committed, the more likely your dx will be severe, and the more likely you won't see the light of day for some time. Choose your shrink carefully if you have great insurance coverage. And never, ever, forget that, unlike prison, they can drug you into a potted plant for as long as they want. I am dead serious. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2000 Report Share Posted September 5, 2000 Kayleigh, What I am talking about has nothing to do with HMO's. It has to do with a judge having the power to lock someone up who has not even been charged with a crime, let alone convicted of one, all based on the hocus pocus " expert " testimony of some jive ass, ticket-to-kidnap shrink. If involuntary commitment laws in this country have been abolished then that is news to me. Do you have a link to Fishman's site. It will be a real shocker if Scientology has such power over people. And I'm real interested to see who is not free to walk away from Scientology. Tommy > > > > > > > Actually, I can't believe that Dr. Szasz would ally himself with > > the > > > practices of scientology, to the extent that they actually > consist > > of > > > a different method of brain-shrinking than contemporary > psychiatry > > > endorses, and additionally, are far more coercive than most > > > psychiatric practices are. > > > > Kayleigh, > > > > I don't believe that he does either, but you have brought up > > something > > that may come into the picture. How can Scientology be more > coercive > > than institutional psychiatry when a person can walk away from > > Scientology, and in many cases are incarcerated or under threat of > > incarceration by institutional psychiatry including coerced AA. > > > > Tommy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2000 Report Share Posted September 5, 2000 Not to mention the toxic drugs these people are forced to swallow. Is it any wonder that Szasz refers to institutitional psychiatrists as jailers and poisoners masquerading as doctors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2000 Report Share Posted September 5, 2000 Well said, Tommy. I remember one poor bastard, a young guy, who made two mistakes: #1 He checked himself in for a few days of R & R and to get consuling for the loss of his wife in a car accident. #2 He had the misfortune of having good insurance. Well, surprise, surprise! They promptly had him committed--for his own good, of course. He was one pissed off camper, let me tell you. This story has a happy ending. He had a miraculous recovery the very same day the money ran out. Another success story made possible by institutional psychiatry:-) Jim > Kayleigh, > > What I am talking about has nothing to do with HMO's. It has to do > with a judge having the power to lock someone up who has not even > been > charged with a crime, let alone convicted of one, all based on the > hocus pocus " expert " testimony of some jive ass, ticket-to-kidnap > shrink. If involuntary commitment laws in this country have been > abolished then that is news to me. > > Do you have a link to Fishman's site. It will be a real shocker if > Scientology has such power over people. And I'm real interested to > see who is not free to walk away from Scientology. > > Tommy > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I can't believe that Dr. Szasz would ally himself with > > > the > > > > practices of scientology, to the extent that they actually > > consist > > > of > > > > a different method of brain-shrinking than contemporary > > psychiatry > > > > endorses, and additionally, are far more coercive than most > > > > psychiatric practices are. > > > > > > Kayleigh, > > > > > > I don't believe that he does either, but you have brought up > > > something > > > that may come into the picture. How can Scientology be more > > coercive > > > than institutional psychiatry when a person can walk away from > > > Scientology, and in many cases are incarcerated or under threat > of > > > incarceration by institutional psychiatry including coerced AA. > > > > > > Tommy > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2000 Report Share Posted September 5, 2000 Hi Bill, Talk about a small world! My brother-in-law works for the Service Workers Employees Union - some sort of agent I think. Gibbs is his last name. Ever run into him? He is doing quite a bit of organizing in nursing homes. Also, since my father has been in assisted living I've seen firsthand the struggle to get adequate care providers to work at these places. He pays $2,460.00 a month for his residency. Multiply that times 70 residents equals $172,200 a month the place gets. There's been a few times my father has waited up to an hour or so to get a response to his buzz for assistance. I doubt any of the other places are much better. The residents' families were given a questionnaire to fill out a couple months ago. I pointed out that they could use the money they spend on interior decorating to hire more help. Believe me, taking care of disabled elders is hard work - worth alot more than $8.00 an hour and I reckon there are some who are only getting $6.00. jan > Hey Jim ... > > I'm very new here but veteran in the residential & forensic MH industry. What > you say is true, be it mental retardation, senior care, D & A ... across the > board. > > Very, very good & caring people earning $8/hour with chickenshit benefits. > Here in Pittsburgh, the Service Workers Employees Union is making some > headway in organizing line workers. > > Some of us are trying to help the union, but it's dangerous and frustrating. > The workers NEED these jobs. In the birthplace of the United Steel Workers, > this is a disgrace. > > Seems the simplest way to run an MH non-profit with virtual immunity is to > put a dim-bulb state legislator or county judge on the board of directors. > > Nice rant ... thanks for the ride - Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2000 Report Share Posted September 5, 2000 Here, people can be held involuntarily for 72 hours, then they are entitled to a hearing. And believe me, it will matter whether or not the institution gets paid. I have a friend whose brother has been diagnosed as schizophrenic, and at one point he went off his meds, stopped eating, and exhibited some very paranoid behavior. Twenty years ago he would have been observed for three days, but upon my friend's mother's and father's request (the man's guardians) they would not commit him to reestablish him on his meds (he even had a job before he went off them) and get some food into him. There is no question in my mind that by the appropriate legal standard, he was a danger to himself (no one else). Why not? They were an HMO, and wouldn't even refer him to a shrink for an opinion. It would play hell with their capitation fee for that month. > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I can't believe that Dr. Szasz would ally himself with > > > the > > > > practices of scientology, to the extent that they actually > > consist > > > of > > > > a different method of brain-shrinking than contemporary > > psychiatry > > > > endorses, and additionally, are far more coercive than most > > > > psychiatric practices are. > > > > > > Kayleigh, > > > > > > I don't believe that he does either, but you have brought up > > > something > > > that may come into the picture. How can Scientology be more > > coercive > > > than institutional psychiatry when a person can walk away from > > > Scientology, and in many cases are incarcerated or under threat > of > > > incarceration by institutional psychiatry including coerced AA. > > > > > > Tommy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2000 Report Share Posted September 5, 2000 Try this for general background: http://wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de/~krasel/CoS/index.html You can get to Fishman from there, but if you really didn't know how coercive the scientologists are, you better look at the background first. They are a much better example of a classic cult than AA. > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I can't believe that Dr. Szasz would ally himself with > > > the > > > > practices of scientology, to the extent that they actually > > consist > > > of > > > > a different method of brain-shrinking than contemporary > > psychiatry > > > > endorses, and additionally, are far more coercive than most > > > > psychiatric practices are. > > > > > > Kayleigh, > > > > > > I don't believe that he does either, but you have brought up > > > something > > > that may come into the picture. How can Scientology be more > > coercive > > > than institutional psychiatry when a person can walk away from > > > Scientology, and in many cases are incarcerated or under threat > of > > > incarceration by institutional psychiatry including coerced AA. > > > > > > Tommy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2000 Report Share Posted September 5, 2000 That's a lot to look through. Can anyone give me even a hint where I can find an account of someone who is or was not free to walk away from Scientology. I cannot imagine an example of a cult being more dangerous than the XA cult. After all, the wealthiest and most powerfull government on earth taxes its people mercilessly, not only to promote it but also to force millions into it. All in violation of its own Constitution, I might add. Did you folks know that in 1895 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the income tax to be unconstitutional. Eighteen years later it took a constitutional amendment to get this " freedom " added to our Constitution. Tommy > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Cult Busters >Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 04:26:43 -0000 > >Try this for general background: > >http://wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de/~krasel/CoS/index.html > >You can get to Fishman from there, but if you really didn't know how >coercive the scientologists are, you better look at the background >first. They are a much better example of a classic cult than AA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I can't believe that Dr. Szasz would ally himself >with > > > > the > > > > > practices of scientology, to the extent that they actually > > > consist > > > > of > > > > > a different method of brain-shrinking than contemporary > > > psychiatry > > > > > endorses, and additionally, are far more coercive than most > > > > > psychiatric practices are. > > > > > > > > Kayleigh, > > > > > > > > I don't believe that he does either, but you have brought up > > > > something > > > > that may come into the picture. How can Scientology be more > > > coercive > > > > than institutional psychiatry when a person can walk away from > > > > Scientology, and in many cases are incarcerated or under threat > > of > > > > incarceration by institutional psychiatry including coerced AA. > > > > > > > > > Tommy > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2000 Report Share Posted September 5, 2000 tommy, there are a ton of ex-scientolgy web pages on net. after i left AA i started researching cults. scientology is total insanity, its far worse than AA, no doubt. just read up who " Xenu " is. ist more dangerous because they have let people die by denying them medical treatment in favor of Hubbards own mystical remedies. here are some good links or you, also check the scientology newsgroup, its filled with people around the world who are ex scientologists. http://www.xenu.net/ it may seem strange but its totally legit and serious, which is whats scary scientology. great site. http://www.ronthewarhero.org/ L ron Hubbard was pathological liar, this site documents the inconsistencies of his military record vs what he claimed over his life. his own son has said he was biggest liar he ever knew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2000 Report Share Posted September 6, 2000 > That's a lot to look through. Can anyone give me even a hint where I can > find an account of someone who is or was not free to walk away from > Scientology. > Probably the most famous case of someone who was not free to walk away from Scientology is McPherson. http://www.b-org.demon.nl/scn/deaths/room174.html Police say McPherson, 36, entered the Fort on Hotel, Scientology's Clearwater headquarters, in November 1995. They say she was physically healthy but psychologically disturbed. Seventeen days later she died. An autopsy determined her death was due to a blood clot brought on by ``severe dehydration'' and ``bed rest.'' Pinellas- Pasco Medical Examiner Joan Wood has said the medical evidence indicates McPherson went without fluids for five to 10 days, possibly longer, and was comatose for at least 24 hours before she died. Bites on her hands were most likely made by cockroaches, Wood has said. (Tampa Tribune, June 1, 1997) Two Scientology programs call for false imprisonment. http://www.scientology-lies.com/imprisonment.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2000 Report Share Posted September 6, 2000 > That's a lot to look through. Can anyone give me even a hint where I can > find an account of someone who is or was not free to walk away from > Scientology. > >>Probably the most famous case of someone who was not free to walk away from Scientology is McPherson. http://www.b-org.demon.nl/scn/deaths/room174.html>>> Stuart, The way I see it, she had her entire adult life to walk away from them but chose to remain. She was a big girl who was well aware of what they were about--over 20 years experience. The tragick circumstances of her death don't change this fact. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2000 Report Share Posted September 6, 2000 Dave and Stuart, Thanks for the info. Again, it will take a while but I plan to read it all. My first reaction is-- wow, how horrible. I somehow knew that there had to be some corruption of government for people to get away with things like this. Also, I lived in Clearwater for four years in the late seventies while in the Coast Gurad. I drove by the Fort on Hotel many times. Also for some reason, the case of son ( " Insanity Inside Out " ) came to mind. I remember what an impact that story had on me about ten years ago, and it also had its beginning at the Pinellis (sp) County courthouse in Clearwater. http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange- glance/Y01Y4321817Y8544473/qid=968286154/sr=1-1/ref=aps_sr_z_2_1/104- 8809361-0749563 Tommy > > That's a lot to look through. Can anyone give me even a hint where > I can > > find an account of someone who is or was not free to walk away from > > Scientology. > > > > Probably the most famous case of someone who was not free to walk > away from Scientology is McPherson. > > http://www.b-org.demon.nl/scn/deaths/room174.html > > Police say McPherson, 36, entered the Fort on Hotel, > Scientology's Clearwater headquarters, in November 1995. They say she > was physically healthy but psychologically disturbed. Seventeen days > later she died. An autopsy determined her death was due to a blood > clot brought on by ``severe dehydration'' and ``bed rest.'' Pinellas- > Pasco Medical Examiner Joan Wood has said the medical evidence > indicates McPherson went without fluids for five to 10 days, possibly > longer, and was comatose for at least 24 hours before she died. Bites > on her hands were most likely made by cockroaches, Wood has said. > (Tampa Tribune, June 1, 1997) > > Two Scientology programs call for false imprisonment. > http://www.scientology-lies.com/imprisonment.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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