Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 IT is really sad to here that someone will,burn the american flag,of a fallen solider,right after his funeral.As a father of a son in the army,i could never accept any type of freedom of speech or excuse of why that was done.I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is done.God bless all of you in your daily duties. NREMT-I,EMSI,FF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 In a message dated 7/25/2005 11:43:16 A.M. Central Daylight Time, texaslp@... writes: slam dunk arson charge Sadly absent some really clear video of dropping the match I am not sure if there is such an animal and even in light of some video arson is by and far a tough crime to get a conviction on but I agree with you Tater. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI LNMolino@... (IFW Office) (Cell Phone) (IFW Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 What is justice for this incident, in your opinion? Mike > I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Mike, How about stacking the people ho did it in a pile, pouring gasoline on them, and lighting them on fire? Sounds like eye for an eye to me............Just kidding. However, nothing reasonable could be punnishment enough for what they did! > > I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 At the very least it's a slam dunk arson charge. It worst, it can be prosecuted as a hate crime. Tater Mike wrote: What is justice for this incident, in your opinion? Mike > I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 At the very least, a workable charge might be unauthorized burning. Remember, there are state/county/municipal regulations regarding outdoor burning. I'm surprised a firefighter hasn't thought of that ;-) -Wes Re: RE off topic but important In a message dated 7/25/2005 11:43:16 A.M. Central Daylight Time, texaslp@... writes: slam dunk arson charge Sadly absent some really clear video of dropping the match I am not sure if there is such an animal and even in light of some video arson is by and far a tough crime to get a conviction on but I agree with you Tater. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI LNMolino@... (IFW Office) (Cell Phone) (IFW Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Jail time for arson (where the person or persons in question would undergo sensitivity training and other counseling)as wel as posible hate crime charges and replacement of the destroyed property. Also a public, formal, face to face apology. Crosby EMT-B Re: RE off topic but important > What is justice for this incident, in your opinion? > > Mike > > >> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is >> done > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 The appropriate remedy to me seems to be charges for theft and criminal mischief. Probated sentence with mandated community service to veteran's organizations, perhaps groundskeeping work at a veteran's cemetery. There should be full financial restitution for the stolen flags and a public, written apology in the local newspaper. I'd also suggest a written essay to be approved by the court. The topic of the essay should be on how our armed services have made sacrifices to protect one's constitutional right to dissent. I'd also order the defendant to attend a military funeral. I'm only suggesting probation because in most jurisdictions, probation is the only way to impose community service requirements. -Wes Re: RE off topic but important Jail time for arson (where the person or persons in question would undergo sensitivity training and other counseling)as wel as posible hate crime charges and replacement of the destroyed property. Also a public, formal, face to face apology. Crosby EMT-B Re: RE off topic but important > What is justice for this incident, in your opinion? > > Mike > > >> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is >> done > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 -- ExLngHrn@... wrote: The appropriate remedy to me seems to be charges for theft and criminal mischief. Probated sentence with mandated community service to veteran's organizations, perhaps groundskeeping work at a veteran's cemetery. There should be full financial restitution for the stolen flags and a public, written apology in the local newspaper. I'd also suggest a written essay to be approved by the court. The topic of the essay should be on how our armed services have made sacrifices to protect one's constitutional right to dissent. I'd also order the defendant to attend a military funeral. I'm only suggesting probation because in most jurisdictions, probation is the only way to impose community service requirements. That sounds like a sentence from the 'Ted Poe Manual on inventive sentencing'. I LIKE it! Have you considered running for judge? I can see a natural progression... Roy Bean ... Ted Poe ... Wes Ogilvie! " Service is love made visible. Friendship is love made personal. Kindness is love made tangible. Giving is love made believable " - Anonymous Larry in Houston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 In a message dated 7/25/2005 4:32:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, wjince@... writes: Peace Officer. That might explain some of my views. Of course it does and that is OK as it is OK for everyone to agree to disagree but at times this thread has edged towards flaming and the like. I am almost sorry I posted the original piece! Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI LNMolino@... (IFW Office) (Cell Phone) (IFW Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Public service is all well and good for minor crimes, but arson is a more serious charge, and the crime that was comitted. A similar crime (minus the flag and dead soldier issue) happened in the neighborhood my mother lives in. The person was caught and convicted of arson and served time. Perhaps jail time for arson, and probation and public service for the lesser charges. Re: RE off topic but important > > >> What is justice for this incident, in your opinion? >> >> Mike >> >> >>> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is >>> done >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 -- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence. As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the place in the statute or relevant Texas case law. § 28.02. ARSON. (a) A person commits an offense if the person starts a fire, regardless of whether the fire continues after ignition, or causes an explosion with intent to destroy or damage: (1) any vegetation, fence, or structure on open-space land; or (2) any building, habitation, or vehicle: (A) knowing that it is within the limits of an incorporated city or town; ( knowing that it is insured against damage or destruction; © knowing that it is subject to a mortgage or other security interest; (D) knowing that it is located on property belonging to another; (E) knowing that it has located within it property belonging to another; or (F) when the person is reckless about whether the burning or explosion will endanger the life of some individual or the safety of the property of another. ( It is an exception to the application of Subsection (a)(1) that the fire or explosion was a part of the controlled burning of open-space land. © It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(2)(A) that prior to starting the fire or causing the explosion, the actor obtained a permit or other written authorization granted in accordance with a city ordinance, if any, regulating fires and explosions. (d) An offense under this section is a felony of the second degree, except that the offense is a felony of the first degree if it is shown on the trial of the offense that: (1) bodily injury or death was suffered by any person by reason of the commission of the offense; or (2) the property intended to be damaged or destroyed by the actor was a habitation or a place of assembly or worship. -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT Austin, Texas Re: RE off topic but important Public service is all well and good for minor crimes, but arson is a more serious charge, and the crime that was comitted. A similar crime (minus the flag and dead soldier issue) happened in the neighborhood my mother lives in. The person was caught and convicted of arson and served time. Perhaps jail time for arson, and probation and public service for the lesser charges. Re: RE off topic but important > > >> What is justice for this incident, in your opinion? >> >> Mike >> >> >>> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is >>> done >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 For all those of you who agree with burning the flag here is the law in the great state of texas. Also how many people know the meanings of the parts of the flag? Do not dishonor those who fought to give you your freedoms by burning the symbol of that which they give all to protect. 42.11. DESTRUCTION OF FLAG. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly damages, defaces, mutilates, or burns the flag of the United States or the State of Texas. ( In this section, " flag " means an emblem, banner, or other standard or a copy of an emblem, standard, or banner that is an official or commonly recognized depiction of the flag of the United States or of this state and is capable of being flown from a staff of any character or size. The term does not include a representation of a flag on a written or printed document, a periodical, stationery, a painting or photograph, or an article of clothing or jewelry. © It is an exception to the application of this section that the act that would otherwise constitute an offense is done in conformity with statutes of the United States or of this state relating to the proper disposal of damaged flags. (d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor. ExLngHrn@... wrote: -- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence. As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the place in the statute or relevant Texas case law. § 28.02. ARSON. (a) A person commits an offense if the person starts a fire, regardless of whether the fire continues after ignition, or causes an explosion with intent to destroy or damage: (1) any vegetation, fence, or structure on open-space land; or (2) any building, habitation, or vehicle: (A) knowing that it is within the limits of an incorporated city or town; ( knowing that it is insured against damage or destruction; © knowing that it is subject to a mortgage or other security interest; (D) knowing that it is located on property belonging to another; (E) knowing that it has located within it property belonging to another; or (F) when the person is reckless about whether the burning or explosion will endanger the life of some individual or the safety of the property of another. ( It is an exception to the application of Subsection (a)(1) that the fire or explosion was a part of the controlled burning of open-space land. © It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(2)(A) that prior to starting the fire or causing the explosion, the actor obtained a permit or other written authorization granted in accordance with a city ordinance, if any, regulating fires and explosions. (d) An offense under this section is a felony of the second degree, except that the offense is a felony of the first degree if it is shown on the trial of the offense that: (1) bodily injury or death was suffered by any person by reason of the commission of the offense; or (2) the property intended to be damaged or destroyed by the actor was a habitation or a place of assembly or worship. -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT Austin, Texas Re: RE off topic but important Public service is all well and good for minor crimes, but arson is a more serious charge, and the crime that was comitted. A similar crime (minus the flag and dead soldier issue) happened in the neighborhood my mother lives in. The person was caught and convicted of arson and served time. Perhaps jail time for arson, and probation and public service for the lesser charges. Re: RE off topic but important > > >> What is justice for this incident, in your opinion? >> >> Mike >> >> >>> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is >>> done >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Yes, I do know the usual practice, but in a flip moment suggested something that was not usual. As to the arson charge, the charge would not be for the burning of the flags, but of the car. § 28.02. ARSON. (a) A person commits an offense if the person starts a fire, regardless of whether the fire continues after ignition, or causes an explosion with intent to destroy or damage: (2) any building, habitation, or vehicle: (D) knowing that it is located on property belonging to another; (F) when the person is reckless about whether the burning or explosion will endanger the life of some individual or the safety of the property of another. (this asuming that the car was near a home, and that the family was in the home at the time) I am not a lawyer of any kind, but setting somebodies car on fire on their property does sem to fit, no matter what was used to set the fire. It is of course normal to focus on the sensational aspects of a crime reported in a news story, but since the Supremes said that burning a flag is free speech I was looking at the crime as a whole, not the individual elements. However, I don't see any DA in their right mind omiting the fact in a courtroom that several flags were stolen from peoples yards in order to set the fire (proving premeditation), and using the story of the US Serviceman just being put to rest to influance the jury toward a more harsh sentence. Just my opinion. As far as flag burning goes, I do think it is wrong, and I do own a shirt with an American flag on it with a caption that invites anyone to try and burn it. I think there are better, more constructive ways protest that would get people to listen to your view, instead of what you are doing. Re: RE off topic but important -- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence. As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the place in the statute or relevant Texas case law. -clipped- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 , the question was not necessarily if they set the car on fire, but whether they had INTENT to destroy or damage the car. That's a much harder burden that merely proving the car was on fire. You can prove the premeditation for theft, undoubtedly. But can you prove the arson charge? I'm with you, I think flag burning is right down there with cross burning. Both are despicable acts, but in a free society, we have a right to engage in speech (either verbal or symbolic) that others find disgusting. I thank you for your service as a veteran, not the least of which is defending the rights of Americans to disagree with the prevailing opinion. -Wes Re: RE off topic but important Yes, I do know the usual practice, but in a flip moment suggested something that was not usual. As to the arson charge, the charge would not be for the burning of the flags, but of the car. § 28.02. ARSON. (a) A person commits an offense if the person starts a fire, regardless of whether the fire continues after ignition, or causes an explosion with intent to destroy or damage: (2) any building, habitation, or vehicle: (D) knowing that it is located on property belonging to another; (F) when the person is reckless about whether the burning or explosion will endanger the life of some individual or the safety of the property of another. (this asuming that the car was near a home, and that the family was in the home at the time) I am not a lawyer of any kind, but setting somebodies car on fire on their property does sem to fit, no matter what was used to set the fire. It is of course normal to focus on the sensational aspects of a crime reported in a news story, but since the Supremes said that burning a flag is free speech I was looking at the crime as a whole, not the individual elements. However, I don't see any DA in their right mind omiting the fact in a courtroom that several flags were stolen from peoples yards in order to set the fire (proving premeditation), and using the story of the US Serviceman just being put to rest to influance the jury toward a more harsh sentence. Just my opinion. As far as flag burning goes, I do think it is wrong, and I do own a shirt with an American flag on it with a caption that invites anyone to try and burn it. I think there are better, more constructive ways protest that would get people to listen to your view, instead of what you are doing. Re: RE off topic but important -- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence. As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the place in the statute or relevant Texas case law. -clipped- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 In a message dated 7/25/2005 5:57:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time, paramedicop@... writes: Well, since you don't want to see ME in daisy dukes... Wes seems more like Roscoe, and me more like Boss Hogg... would that make Gandy be Uncle , and Bledsoe be Cooter? Mike I've got the figure for Boss Hogg and the legs for Daisy dukes (that will likely end this thread). Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI LNMolino@... (IFW Office) (Cell Phone) (IFW Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Do you think a defense lawyer would try to prove that the flags accidently caught on fire and just happened to find their way underneath the car owned by a person who just lost a serving family member? Or perhaps that setting a fire underneath a car wouldnt be expected to cause damage cause any damage? The intent sure seems to be there unles spontanious combustion ocoured. Re: RE off topic but important -- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence. As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the place in the statute or relevant Texas case law. -clipped- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Mr. Ince -- I have never AGREED with burning the flag. Rather, I am pointing out established constitutional precedent as enacted by the United States Supreme Court. I'd refer you to Texas v. , 491 U.S. 397 (1989). In this case, the Supreme Court affirmed the court of criminal appeals' decision when the Court found that petitioner's interest in preventing breaches of the peace did not support respondent's conviction because his conduct did not threaten to disturb peace; petitioner's interest in preserving the flag as a symbol of nationhood did not justify a criminal conviction for engaging in political expression. Part of honoring our country and its heritage is to respect the law and our institutions. One of those institutions founded in law is our Supreme Court. Our laws and Constitution give the Supreme Court the power to interpret the law. Until the Supreme Court revisits the case or an amendment to the Constitution is passed by a 2/3 majority of the House and Senate, then ratified by 3/4 of the state legislatures, the right to burn a flag, while despicable, is protected under law. -Wes Ogilvie damned lawyer Re: RE off topic but important Public service is all well and good for minor crimes, but arson is a more serious charge, and the crime that was comitted. A similar crime (minus the flag and dead soldier issue) happened in the neighborhood my mother lives in. The person was caught and convicted of arson and served time. Perhaps jail time for arson, and probation and public service for the lesser charges. Re: RE off topic but important > > >> What is justice for this incident, in your opinion? >> >> Mike >> >> >>> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is >>> done >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Interesting tidbit of information: US Code, Title 4 Chapter 1 Section 8(k) - " The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning. " Rick LaChance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 -- the defense lawyer would not have to prove a thing. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. We have the presumption of innocence. The prosecutor has to prove that the defendant intended to set the car on fire. There's a slam-dunk case for theft of the flags and for criminal mischief by burning the flags. However, to win an arson case, the prosecution has to establish, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant lit the flags on fire with the intent to burn the car. -Wes Re: RE off topic but important Do you think a defense lawyer would try to prove that the flags accidently caught on fire and just happened to find their way underneath the car owned by a person who just lost a serving family member? Or perhaps that setting a fire underneath a car wouldnt be expected to cause damage cause any damage? The intent sure seems to be there unles spontanious combustion ocoured. Re: RE off topic but important -- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence. As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the place in the statute or relevant Texas case law. -clipped- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 What of the burned car? ExLngHrn@... wrote: The appropriate remedy to me seems to be charges for theft and criminal mischief. Probated sentence with mandated community service to veteran's organizations, perhaps groundskeeping work at a veteran's cemetery. There should be full financial restitution for the stolen flags and a public, written apology in the local newspaper. I'd also suggest a written essay to be approved by the court. The topic of the essay should be on how our armed services have made sacrifices to protect one's constitutional right to dissent. I'd also order the defendant to attend a military funeral. I'm only suggesting probation because in most jurisdictions, probation is the only way to impose community service requirements. -Wes Re: RE off topic but important Jail time for arson (where the person or persons in question would undergo sensitivity training and other counseling)as wel as posible hate crime charges and replacement of the destroyed property. Also a public, formal, face to face apology. Crosby EMT-B Re: RE off topic but important > What is justice for this incident, in your opinion? > > Mike > > >> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is >> done > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Wes, The alleged " protest " (we're assuming that's what it was about) caused the complete destruction of an automobile. This is well within the code for arson. The perpetrators would be charged as such here in County, but as most of you know we're tough on crap here. Tater ExLngHrn@... wrote: -- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence. As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the place in the statute or relevant Texas case law. § 28.02. ARSON. (a) A person commits an offense if the person starts a fire, regardless of whether the fire continues after ignition, or causes an explosion with intent to destroy or damage: (1) any vegetation, fence, or structure on open-space land; or (2) any building, habitation, or vehicle: (A) knowing that it is within the limits of an incorporated city or town; ( knowing that it is insured against damage or destruction; © knowing that it is subject to a mortgage or other security interest; (D) knowing that it is located on property belonging to another; (E) knowing that it has located within it property belonging to another; or (F) when the person is reckless about whether the burning or explosion will endanger the life of some individual or the safety of the property of another. ( It is an exception to the application of Subsection (a)(1) that the fire or explosion was a part of the controlled burning of open-space land. © It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(2)(A) that prior to starting the fire or causing the explosion, the actor obtained a permit or other written authorization granted in accordance with a city ordinance, if any, regulating fires and explosions. (d) An offense under this section is a felony of the second degree, except that the offense is a felony of the first degree if it is shown on the trial of the offense that: (1) bodily injury or death was suffered by any person by reason of the commission of the offense; or (2) the property intended to be damaged or destroyed by the actor was a habitation or a place of assembly or worship. -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT Austin, Texas Re: RE off topic but important Public service is all well and good for minor crimes, but arson is a more serious charge, and the crime that was comitted. A similar crime (minus the flag and dead soldier issue) happened in the neighborhood my mother lives in. The person was caught and convicted of arson and served time. Perhaps jail time for arson, and probation and public service for the lesser charges. Re: RE off topic but important > > >> What is justice for this incident, in your opinion? >> >> Mike >> >> >>> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is >>> done >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Rick, The key phrase here is " dignified way " . I don't think any of us would say on the ground, under a car, is in any way dignified. Tater LaChance wrote: Interesting tidbit of information: US Code, Title 4 Chapter 1 Section 8(k) - " The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning. " Rick LaChance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Wes, I think in California, your arguement might be credible. However, I don't think any prosecutor in Texas will have a bit of trouble getting a conviction on this charge. Ohio? Who knows.... Tater ExLngHrn@... wrote: -- the defense lawyer would not have to prove a thing. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. We have the presumption of innocence. The prosecutor has to prove that the defendant intended to set the car on fire. There's a slam-dunk case for theft of the flags and for criminal mischief by burning the flags. However, to win an arson case, the prosecution has to establish, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant lit the flags on fire with the intent to burn the car. -Wes Re: RE off topic but important Do you think a defense lawyer would try to prove that the flags accidently caught on fire and just happened to find their way underneath the car owned by a person who just lost a serving family member? Or perhaps that setting a fire underneath a car wouldnt be expected to cause damage cause any damage? The intent sure seems to be there unles spontanious combustion ocoured. Re: RE off topic but important -- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence. As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the place in the statute or relevant Texas case law. -clipped- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 -- calling me a California lawyer? Them's fighting words.... Seriously, just trying to point out that this may not be a slam-dunk arson case. Definitely a sure-fire theft and criminal mischief case. Ya know, being a lawyer is sometimes like being a medic. We have to help those who we find disgusting. And sometimes, we have to do things that sound, to outsiders, wrong. (Rectal temperatures, putting a patient on a hard board, poking the patient with needles, etc.) -Wes Re: RE off topic but important Do you think a defense lawyer would try to prove that the flags accidently caught on fire and just happened to find their way underneath the car owned by a person who just lost a serving family member? Or perhaps that setting a fire underneath a car wouldnt be expected to cause damage cause any damage? The intent sure seems to be there unles spontanious combustion ocoured. Re: RE off topic but important -- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence. As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the place in the statute or relevant Texas case law. -clipped- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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