RE off topic but important

[Guest guest]

IT is really sad to here that someone will,burn the american flag,of a fallen

solider,right after his funeral.As a father of a son in the army,i could never

accept any type of freedom of speech or excuse of why that was done.I hope the

law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is done.God bless all

of you in your daily duties.

NREMT-I,EMSI,FF

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/25/2005 11:43:16 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

texaslp@... writes:

slam dunk arson charge

Sadly absent some really clear video of dropping the match I am not sure if

there is such an animal and even in light of some video arson is by and far a

tough crime to get a conviction on but I agree with you Tater.

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

LNMolino@...

(IFW Office)

(Cell Phone)

(IFW Fax)

" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

its

stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

[Guest guest]

What is justice for this incident, in your opinion?

Mike

> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is done

[Guest guest]

Mike,

How about stacking the people ho did it in a pile, pouring gasoline on

them, and lighting them on fire? Sounds like eye for an eye to

me............Just kidding. However, nothing reasonable could be

punnishment enough for what they did!

> > I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until

justice is done

[Guest guest]

At the very least it's a slam dunk arson charge. It worst, it can be prosecuted

as a hate crime.

Tater

Mike wrote:

What is justice for this incident, in your opinion?

Mike

> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is done

[Guest guest]

At the very least, a workable charge might be unauthorized burning. Remember,

there are state/county/municipal regulations regarding outdoor burning. I'm

surprised a firefighter hasn't thought of that ;-)

-Wes

Re: RE off topic but important

In a message dated 7/25/2005 11:43:16 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

texaslp@... writes:

slam dunk arson charge

Sadly absent some really clear video of dropping the match I am not sure if

there is such an animal and even in light of some video arson is by and far a

tough crime to get a conviction on but I agree with you Tater.

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

LNMolino@...

(IFW Office)

(Cell Phone)

(IFW Fax)

" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

its

stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

[Guest guest]

Jail time for arson (where the person or persons in question would undergo

sensitivity training and other counseling)as wel as posible hate crime

charges and replacement of the destroyed property. Also a public, formal,

face to face apology.

Crosby

EMT-B

Re: RE off topic but important

> What is justice for this incident, in your opinion?

>

> Mike

>

>

>> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is

>> done

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The appropriate remedy to me seems to be charges for theft and criminal

mischief. Probated sentence with mandated community service to veteran's

organizations, perhaps groundskeeping work at a veteran's cemetery. There should

be full financial restitution for the stolen flags and a public, written apology

in the local newspaper. I'd also suggest a written essay to be approved by the

court. The topic of the essay should be on how our armed services have made

sacrifices to protect one's constitutional right to dissent. I'd also order the

defendant to attend a military funeral. I'm only suggesting probation because in

most jurisdictions, probation is the only way to impose community service

requirements.

-Wes

Re: RE off topic but important

Jail time for arson (where the person or persons in question would undergo

sensitivity training and other counseling)as wel as posible hate crime

charges and replacement of the destroyed property. Also a public, formal,

face to face apology.

Crosby

EMT-B

Re: RE off topic but important

> What is justice for this incident, in your opinion?

>

> Mike

>

>

>> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is

>> done

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

-- ExLngHrn@... wrote:

The appropriate remedy to me seems to be charges for theft and criminal

mischief. Probated sentence with mandated community service to veteran's

organizations, perhaps groundskeeping work at a veteran's cemetery. There should

be full financial restitution for the stolen flags and a public, written apology

in the local newspaper. I'd also suggest a written essay to be approved by the

court. The topic of the essay should be on how our armed services have made

sacrifices to protect one's constitutional right to dissent. I'd also order the

defendant to attend a military funeral. I'm only suggesting probation because in

most jurisdictions, probation is the only way to impose community service

requirements.

That sounds like a sentence from the 'Ted Poe Manual on inventive sentencing'. I

LIKE it!

Have you considered running for judge? I can see a natural progression... Roy

Bean ... Ted Poe ... Wes Ogilvie!

" Service is love made visible. Friendship is love made personal. Kindness is

love made tangible. Giving is love made believable " - Anonymous

Larry in Houston

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/25/2005 4:32:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

wjince@... writes:

Peace Officer. That might explain some of my views.

Of course it does and that is OK as it is OK for everyone to agree to

disagree but at times this thread has edged towards flaming and the like. I am

almost sorry I posted the original piece!

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

LNMolino@...

(IFW Office)

(Cell Phone)

(IFW Fax)

" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

its

stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

[Guest guest]

Public service is all well and good for minor crimes, but arson is a more

serious charge, and the crime that was comitted. A similar crime (minus the

flag and dead soldier issue) happened in the neighborhood my mother lives

in. The person was caught and convicted of arson and served time. Perhaps

jail time for arson, and probation and public service for the lesser

charges.

Re: RE off topic but important

>

>

>> What is justice for this incident, in your opinion?

>>

>> Mike

>>

>>

>>> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is

>>> done

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

-- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone to

jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that probation used

to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's just like a probated

EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with the sentence so long as

certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit someone with jail/prison

(misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts go to prison) and probation

for the same crime. You can, in certain circumstances, require a minimal amount

of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or serving some weekends in jail) with a

probated sentence.

As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute

prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I may

not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag fits

the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the place in

the statute or relevant Texas case law.

§ 28.02. ARSON. (a) A person commits an offense if the

person starts a fire, regardless of whether the fire continues

after ignition, or causes an explosion with intent to destroy or

damage:

(1) any vegetation, fence, or structure on open-space

land; or

(2) any building, habitation, or vehicle:

(A) knowing that it is within the limits of an

incorporated city or town;

( knowing that it is insured against damage or

destruction;

© knowing that it is subject to a mortgage or

other security interest;

(D) knowing that it is located on property

belonging to another;

(E) knowing that it has located within it

property belonging to another; or

(F) when the person is reckless about whether the

burning or explosion will endanger the life of some individual or

the safety of the property of another.

( It is an exception to the application of Subsection

(a)(1) that the fire or explosion was a part of the controlled

burning of open-space land.

© It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection

(a)(2)(A) that prior to starting the fire or causing the explosion,

the actor obtained a permit or other written authorization granted

in accordance with a city ordinance, if any, regulating fires and

explosions.

(d) An offense under this section is a felony of the second

degree, except that the offense is a felony of the first degree if

it is shown on the trial of the offense that:

(1) bodily injury or death was suffered by any person

by reason of the commission of the offense; or

(2) the property intended to be damaged or destroyed

by the actor was a habitation or a place of assembly or worship.

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT

Austin, Texas

Re: RE off topic but important

Public service is all well and good for minor crimes, but arson is a more

serious charge, and the crime that was comitted. A similar crime (minus the

flag and dead soldier issue) happened in the neighborhood my mother lives

in. The person was caught and convicted of arson and served time. Perhaps

jail time for arson, and probation and public service for the lesser

charges.

Re: RE off topic but important

>

>

>> What is justice for this incident, in your opinion?

>>

>> Mike

>>

>>

>>> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is

>>> done

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

For all those of you who agree with burning the flag here is the law in the

great state of texas. Also how many people know the meanings of the parts of the

flag? Do not dishonor those who fought to give you your freedoms by burning the

symbol of that which they give all to protect.

42.11. DESTRUCTION OF FLAG. (a) A person commits an

offense if the person intentionally or knowingly damages, defaces,

mutilates, or burns the flag of the United States or the State of

Texas.

( In this section, " flag " means an emblem, banner, or

other standard or a copy of an emblem, standard, or banner that is

an official or commonly recognized depiction of the flag of the

United States or of this state and is capable of being flown from a

staff of any character or size. The term does not include a

representation of a flag on a written or printed document, a

periodical, stationery, a painting or photograph, or an article of

clothing or jewelry.

© It is an exception to the application of this section

that the act that would otherwise constitute an offense is done in

conformity with statutes of the United States or of this state

relating to the proper disposal of damaged flags.

(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

ExLngHrn@... wrote:

-- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone to

jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that probation used

to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's just like a probated

EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with the sentence so long as

certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit someone with jail/prison

(misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts go to prison) and probation

for the same crime. You can, in certain circumstances, require a minimal amount

of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or serving some weekends in jail) with a

probated sentence.

As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute

prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I may

not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag fits

the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the place in

the statute or relevant Texas case law.

§ 28.02. ARSON. (a) A person commits an offense if the

person starts a fire, regardless of whether the fire continues

after ignition, or causes an explosion with intent to destroy or

damage:

(1) any vegetation, fence, or structure on open-space

land; or

(2) any building, habitation, or vehicle:

(A) knowing that it is within the limits of an

incorporated city or town;

( knowing that it is insured against damage or

destruction;

© knowing that it is subject to a mortgage or

other security interest;

(D) knowing that it is located on property

belonging to another;

(E) knowing that it has located within it

property belonging to another; or

(F) when the person is reckless about whether the

burning or explosion will endanger the life of some individual or

the safety of the property of another.

( It is an exception to the application of Subsection

(a)(1) that the fire or explosion was a part of the controlled

burning of open-space land.

© It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection

(a)(2)(A) that prior to starting the fire or causing the explosion,

the actor obtained a permit or other written authorization granted

in accordance with a city ordinance, if any, regulating fires and

explosions.

(d) An offense under this section is a felony of the second

degree, except that the offense is a felony of the first degree if

it is shown on the trial of the offense that:

(1) bodily injury or death was suffered by any person

by reason of the commission of the offense; or

(2) the property intended to be damaged or destroyed

by the actor was a habitation or a place of assembly or worship.

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT

Austin, Texas

Re: RE off topic but important

Public service is all well and good for minor crimes, but arson is a more

serious charge, and the crime that was comitted. A similar crime (minus the

flag and dead soldier issue) happened in the neighborhood my mother lives

in. The person was caught and convicted of arson and served time. Perhaps

jail time for arson, and probation and public service for the lesser

charges.

Re: RE off topic but important

>

>

>> What is justice for this incident, in your opinion?

>>

>> Mike

>>

>>

>>> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is

>>> done

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I do know the usual practice, but in a flip moment suggested something

that was not usual. As to the arson charge, the charge would not be for the

burning of the flags, but of the car.

§ 28.02. ARSON. (a) A person commits an offense if the

person starts a fire, regardless of whether the fire continues

after ignition, or causes an explosion with intent to destroy or

damage:

(2) any building, habitation, or vehicle:

(D) knowing that it is located on property

belonging to another;

(F) when the person is reckless about whether the

burning or explosion will endanger the life of some individual or

the safety of the property of another.

(this asuming that the car was near a home, and that the family was in the

home at the time)

I am not a lawyer of any kind, but setting somebodies car on fire on

their property does sem to fit, no matter what was used to set the fire. It

is of course normal to focus on the sensational aspects of a crime reported

in a news story, but since the Supremes said that burning a flag is free

speech I was looking at the crime as a whole, not the individual elements.

However, I don't see any DA in their right mind omiting the fact in a

courtroom that several flags were stolen from peoples yards in order to set

the fire (proving premeditation), and using the story of the US Serviceman

just being put to rest to influance the jury toward a more harsh sentence.

Just my opinion.

As far as flag burning goes, I do think it is wrong, and I do own a

shirt with an American flag on it with a caption that invites anyone to try

and burn it. I think there are better, more constructive ways protest that

would get people to listen to your view, instead of what you are doing.

Re: RE off topic but important

-- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone

to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that

probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's

just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with

the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit

someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts

go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain

circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or

serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence.

As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute

prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I

may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag

fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the

place in the statute or relevant Texas case law.

-clipped-

[Guest guest]

, the question was not necessarily if they set the car on fire, but whether

they had INTENT to destroy or damage the car. That's a much harder burden that

merely proving the car was on fire.

You can prove the premeditation for theft, undoubtedly. But can you prove the

arson charge?

I'm with you, I think flag burning is right down there with cross burning. Both

are despicable acts, but in a free society, we have a right to engage in speech

(either verbal or symbolic) that others find disgusting.

I thank you for your service as a veteran, not the least of which is defending

the rights of Americans to disagree with the prevailing opinion.

-Wes

Re: RE off topic but important

Yes, I do know the usual practice, but in a flip moment suggested something

that was not usual. As to the arson charge, the charge would not be for the

burning of the flags, but of the car.

§ 28.02. ARSON. (a) A person commits an offense if the

person starts a fire, regardless of whether the fire continues

after ignition, or causes an explosion with intent to destroy or

damage:

(2) any building, habitation, or vehicle:

(D) knowing that it is located on property

belonging to another;

(F) when the person is reckless about whether the

burning or explosion will endanger the life of some individual or

the safety of the property of another.

(this asuming that the car was near a home, and that the family was in the

home at the time)

I am not a lawyer of any kind, but setting somebodies car on fire on

their property does sem to fit, no matter what was used to set the fire. It

is of course normal to focus on the sensational aspects of a crime reported

in a news story, but since the Supremes said that burning a flag is free

speech I was looking at the crime as a whole, not the individual elements.

However, I don't see any DA in their right mind omiting the fact in a

courtroom that several flags were stolen from peoples yards in order to set

the fire (proving premeditation), and using the story of the US Serviceman

just being put to rest to influance the jury toward a more harsh sentence.

Just my opinion.

As far as flag burning goes, I do think it is wrong, and I do own a

shirt with an American flag on it with a caption that invites anyone to try

and burn it. I think there are better, more constructive ways protest that

would get people to listen to your view, instead of what you are doing.

Re: RE off topic but important

-- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone

to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that

probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's

just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with

the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit

someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts

go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain

circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or

serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence.

As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute

prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I

may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag

fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the

place in the statute or relevant Texas case law.

-clipped-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/25/2005 5:57:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

paramedicop@... writes:

Well, since you don't want to see ME in daisy dukes...

Wes seems more like Roscoe, and me more like Boss Hogg... would that

make Gandy be Uncle , and Bledsoe be Cooter?

Mike

I've got the figure for Boss Hogg and the legs for Daisy dukes (that will

likely end this thread).

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

LNMolino@...

(IFW Office)

(Cell Phone)

(IFW Fax)

" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

its

stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

[Guest guest]

Do you think a defense lawyer would try to prove that the flags accidently

caught on fire and just happened to find their way underneath the car owned

by a person who just lost a serving family member? Or perhaps that setting a

fire underneath a car wouldnt be expected to cause damage cause any damage?

The intent sure seems to be there unles spontanious combustion ocoured.

Re: RE off topic but important

-- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone

to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that

probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's

just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with

the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit

someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts

go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain

circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or

serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence.

As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute

prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I

may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag

fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the

place in the statute or relevant Texas case law.

-clipped-

[Guest guest]

Mr. Ince --

I have never AGREED with burning the flag. Rather, I am pointing out established

constitutional precedent as enacted by the United States Supreme Court.

I'd refer you to Texas v. , 491 U.S. 397 (1989).

In this case, the Supreme Court affirmed the court of criminal appeals' decision

when the Court found that petitioner's interest in preventing breaches of the

peace did not support respondent's conviction because his conduct did not

threaten to disturb peace; petitioner's interest in preserving the flag as a

symbol of nationhood did not justify a criminal conviction for engaging in

political expression.

Part of honoring our country and its heritage is to respect the law and our

institutions. One of those institutions founded in law is our Supreme Court. Our

laws and Constitution give the Supreme Court the power to interpret the law.

Until the Supreme Court revisits the case or an amendment to the

Constitution is passed by a 2/3 majority of the House and Senate, then ratified

by 3/4 of the state legislatures, the right to burn a flag, while despicable, is

protected under law.

-Wes Ogilvie

damned lawyer

Re: RE off topic but important

Public service is all well and good for minor crimes, but arson is a more

serious charge, and the crime that was comitted. A similar crime (minus the

flag and dead soldier issue) happened in the neighborhood my mother lives

in. The person was caught and convicted of arson and served time. Perhaps

jail time for arson, and probation and public service for the lesser

charges.

Re: RE off topic but important

>

>

>> What is justice for this incident, in your opinion?

>>

>> Mike

>>

>>

>>> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is

>>> done

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Interesting tidbit of information: US Code, Title 4 Chapter 1 Section 8(k) -

" The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem

for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning. "

Rick LaChance

[Guest guest]

-- the defense lawyer would not have to prove a thing. The burden of proof

is on the prosecution. We have the presumption of innocence. The prosecutor has

to prove that the defendant intended to set the car on fire. There's a

slam-dunk case for theft of the flags and for criminal mischief by burning the

flags. However, to win an arson case, the prosecution has to establish, beyond a

reasonable doubt, that the defendant lit the flags on fire with the intent to

burn the car.

-Wes

Re: RE off topic but important

Do you think a defense lawyer would try to prove that the flags accidently

caught on fire and just happened to find their way underneath the car owned

by a person who just lost a serving family member? Or perhaps that setting a

fire underneath a car wouldnt be expected to cause damage cause any damage?

The intent sure seems to be there unles spontanious combustion ocoured.

Re: RE off topic but important

-- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone

to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that

probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's

just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with

the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit

someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts

go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain

circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or

serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence.

As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute

prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I

may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag

fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the

place in the statute or relevant Texas case law.

-clipped-

[Guest guest]

What of the burned car?

ExLngHrn@... wrote:

The appropriate remedy to me seems to be charges for theft and criminal

mischief. Probated sentence with mandated community service to veteran's

organizations, perhaps groundskeeping work at a veteran's cemetery. There should

be full financial restitution for the stolen flags and a public, written apology

in the local newspaper. I'd also suggest a written essay to be approved by the

court. The topic of the essay should be on how our armed services have made

sacrifices to protect one's constitutional right to dissent. I'd also order the

defendant to attend a military funeral. I'm only suggesting probation because in

most jurisdictions, probation is the only way to impose community service

requirements.

-Wes

Re: RE off topic but important

Jail time for arson (where the person or persons in question would undergo

sensitivity training and other counseling)as wel as posible hate crime

charges and replacement of the destroyed property. Also a public, formal,

face to face apology.

Crosby

EMT-B

Re: RE off topic but important

> What is justice for this incident, in your opinion?

>

> Mike

>

>

>> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is

>> done

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wes,

The alleged " protest " (we're assuming that's what it was about) caused the

complete destruction of an automobile. This is well within the code for arson.

The perpetrators would be charged as such here in County, but as most of

you know we're tough on crap here.

Tater

ExLngHrn@... wrote:

-- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone to

jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that probation used

to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's just like a probated

EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with the sentence so long as

certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit someone with jail/prison

(misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts go to prison) and probation

for the same crime. You can, in certain circumstances, require a minimal amount

of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or serving some weekends in jail) with a

probated sentence.

As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute

prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I may

not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag fits

the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the place in

the statute or relevant Texas case law.

§ 28.02. ARSON. (a) A person commits an offense if the

person starts a fire, regardless of whether the fire continues

after ignition, or causes an explosion with intent to destroy or

damage:

(1) any vegetation, fence, or structure on open-space

land; or

(2) any building, habitation, or vehicle:

(A) knowing that it is within the limits of an

incorporated city or town;

( knowing that it is insured against damage or

destruction;

© knowing that it is subject to a mortgage or

other security interest;

(D) knowing that it is located on property

belonging to another;

(E) knowing that it has located within it

property belonging to another; or

(F) when the person is reckless about whether the

burning or explosion will endanger the life of some individual or

the safety of the property of another.

( It is an exception to the application of Subsection

(a)(1) that the fire or explosion was a part of the controlled

burning of open-space land.

© It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection

(a)(2)(A) that prior to starting the fire or causing the explosion,

the actor obtained a permit or other written authorization granted

in accordance with a city ordinance, if any, regulating fires and

explosions.

(d) An offense under this section is a felony of the second

degree, except that the offense is a felony of the first degree if

it is shown on the trial of the offense that:

(1) bodily injury or death was suffered by any person

by reason of the commission of the offense; or

(2) the property intended to be damaged or destroyed

by the actor was a habitation or a place of assembly or worship.

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT

Austin, Texas

Re: RE off topic but important

Public service is all well and good for minor crimes, but arson is a more

serious charge, and the crime that was comitted. A similar crime (minus the

flag and dead soldier issue) happened in the neighborhood my mother lives

in. The person was caught and convicted of arson and served time. Perhaps

jail time for arson, and probation and public service for the lesser

charges.

Re: RE off topic but important

>

>

>> What is justice for this incident, in your opinion?

>>

>> Mike

>>

>>

>>> I hope the law in that part of the country do not rest until justice is

>>> done

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Rick,

The key phrase here is " dignified way " . I don't think any of us would say on

the ground, under a car, is in any way dignified.

Tater

LaChance wrote:

Interesting tidbit of information: US Code, Title 4 Chapter 1 Section 8(k) -

" The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem

for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning. "

Rick LaChance

[Guest guest]

Wes,

I think in California, your arguement might be credible. However, I don't think

any prosecutor in Texas will have a bit of trouble getting a conviction on this

charge. Ohio? Who knows....

Tater

ExLngHrn@... wrote:

-- the defense lawyer would not have to prove a thing. The burden of proof

is on the prosecution. We have the presumption of innocence. The prosecutor has

to prove that the defendant intended to set the car on fire. There's a

slam-dunk case for theft of the flags and for criminal mischief by burning the

flags. However, to win an arson case, the prosecution has to establish, beyond a

reasonable doubt, that the defendant lit the flags on fire with the intent to

burn the car.

-Wes

Re: RE off topic but important

Do you think a defense lawyer would try to prove that the flags accidently

caught on fire and just happened to find their way underneath the car owned

by a person who just lost a serving family member? Or perhaps that setting a

fire underneath a car wouldnt be expected to cause damage cause any damage?

The intent sure seems to be there unles spontanious combustion ocoured.

Re: RE off topic but important

-- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone

to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that

probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's

just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with

the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit

someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts

go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain

circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or

serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence.

As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute

prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I

may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag

fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the

place in the statute or relevant Texas case law.

-clipped-

[Guest guest]

-- calling me a California lawyer? Them's fighting words....

Seriously, just trying to point out that this may not be a slam-dunk arson case.

Definitely a sure-fire theft and criminal mischief case.

Ya know, being a lawyer is sometimes like being a medic. We have to help those

who we find disgusting. And sometimes, we have to do things that sound, to

outsiders, wrong. (Rectal temperatures, putting a patient on a hard board,

poking the patient with needles, etc.)

-Wes

Re: RE off topic but important

Do you think a defense lawyer would try to prove that the flags accidently

caught on fire and just happened to find their way underneath the car owned

by a person who just lost a serving family member? Or perhaps that setting a

fire underneath a car wouldnt be expected to cause damage cause any damage?

The intent sure seems to be there unles spontanious combustion ocoured.

Re: RE off topic but important

-- I beg to differ, but the usual practice is not to sentence someone

to jail/prison AND probation. If you read the law, you'll find that

probation used to be defined as a probated sentence. In other words, it's

just like a probated EMS suspension. The state does not follow through with

the sentence so long as certain conditions are met. Hence, you can't hit

someone with jail/prison (misdemeanor convicts go to jail, felony convicts

go to prison) and probation for the same crime. You can, in certain

circumstances, require a minimal amount of confinement (2-3 days in jail, or

serving some weekends in jail) with a probated sentence.

As to arson, I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the Texas statute

prohibiting arson. Could you prove each and every one of these elements? I

may not do much criminal law anymore, but I'm not seeing that burning a flag

fits the statutory elements. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the

place in the statute or relevant Texas case law.

-clipped-