Re: A Couple of Things to Say

[Guest guest]

>

> I think one of the reasons OA doesn't have the sort of stranglehold

> on the weight management industry like AA does over alcohol

treatment

> is because the silliness of the whole idea is so easily spotted.

I've seen a newcomer crack up giggling when she read out: " Remember we

are powerless over food - cunning, baffling, powerful. "

>

> Along the lines of your UA idea, I was thinking of a program for

> people who don't exercise enough. Afterall, if too much can be an

> addiction, why not too little? CPA (Couch Potatoes

>Anonymous),anyone?

A handout my GP gave me states that in the UK anyway the average diet

contains fewer calories than that 20 yrs ago - but we are getting

fatter and fatter through lack of exercise. Yet in OA overweight is

always thought of as a sign of overeating, and exercising to control

weight as a symptom of addiction.

P.

[Guest guest]

>

> I think one of the reasons OA doesn't have the sort of stranglehold

> on the weight management industry like AA does over alcohol

treatment

> is because the silliness of the whole idea is so easily spotted.

I've seen a newcomer crack up giggling when she read out: " Remember we

are powerless over food - cunning, baffling, powerful. "

>

> Along the lines of your UA idea, I was thinking of a program for

> people who don't exercise enough. Afterall, if too much can be an

> addiction, why not too little? CPA (Couch Potatoes

>Anonymous),anyone?

A handout my GP gave me states that in the UK anyway the average diet

contains fewer calories than that 20 yrs ago - but we are getting

fatter and fatter through lack of exercise. Yet in OA overweight is

always thought of as a sign of overeating, and exercising to control

weight as a symptom of addiction.

P.

[Guest guest]

>

> I think one of the reasons OA doesn't have the sort of stranglehold

> on the weight management industry like AA does over alcohol

treatment

> is because the silliness of the whole idea is so easily spotted.

I've seen a newcomer crack up giggling when she read out: " Remember we

are powerless over food - cunning, baffling, powerful. "

>

> Along the lines of your UA idea, I was thinking of a program for

> people who don't exercise enough. Afterall, if too much can be an

> addiction, why not too little? CPA (Couch Potatoes

>Anonymous),anyone?

A handout my GP gave me states that in the UK anyway the average diet

contains fewer calories than that 20 yrs ago - but we are getting

fatter and fatter through lack of exercise. Yet in OA overweight is

always thought of as a sign of overeating, and exercising to control

weight as a symptom of addiction.

P.

[Guest guest]

>

> There was an Emotions Anonymous at one point. Even my pet mouse

> has emotions, so the door's pretty much wide open as far as I can

> tell.

I think EA is quite big. My rehab running sponsor used to recommedn

it to folks who couldnt find an XA for their particular bag. EA is

probably the most dangerous XA of all, as it is essentially aimed at

those with mental disorders, and encourages ppl to

feel poweerless over their probemas and religion-over-meds. A former

gf went to it and suggested it to me as an alternative to meds.

P.

[Guest guest]

>

> There was an Emotions Anonymous at one point. Even my pet mouse

> has emotions, so the door's pretty much wide open as far as I can

> tell.

I think EA is quite big. My rehab running sponsor used to recommedn

it to folks who couldnt find an XA for their particular bag. EA is

probably the most dangerous XA of all, as it is essentially aimed at

those with mental disorders, and encourages ppl to

feel poweerless over their probemas and religion-over-meds. A former

gf went to it and suggested it to me as an alternative to meds.

P.

[Guest guest]

>

> There was an Emotions Anonymous at one point. Even my pet mouse

> has emotions, so the door's pretty much wide open as far as I can

> tell.

I think EA is quite big. My rehab running sponsor used to recommedn

it to folks who couldnt find an XA for their particular bag. EA is

probably the most dangerous XA of all, as it is essentially aimed at

those with mental disorders, and encourages ppl to

feel poweerless over their probemas and religion-over-meds. A former

gf went to it and suggested it to me as an alternative to meds.

P.

[Guest guest]

Right at this very moment there is a chap on APA Div 50 (the

listserv of the addictions division of the American Psychological

Association) who is advocating that politicians and Fortune 500 types

should be " prevailed upon " to practice 12 step to overcome their

" addiction to power " . He says that he just *knows* that addiction is

the root of all evil and 12 step the cure of it. apparently a recent

cause of his rantings is the postings on alt.recovery.from-12-steps of

SMART co-ordinator Vorous, a polite, mature man, questioning the

effectiveness of AA.

For all this man's commitment to 12-step, his commitment to anonymity

is rather illustratedby the fact that when questioned on his

professional qualifications to make such claims on a psychologists'

list, he listed his AA resume, as if that compared with professional

ceritification and clinical experience.

P.

> > > Mona tells us about someone who " ...insists working the steps

> > > cures all mental illnesses. I've asked him whether, if that is

> so,

> > then we

> > > had not better pray to HP that every bipolar, paranoid

> > schizophrenic, OCD, &

> > > etc...becomes afflicted with alcoholism or drug addiction, so

> that

> > they are

> > > given an opportunity to cure their mental illness by working the

> > steps. "

> > >

> > > Ummm....there are people who think that very thing! I remember

> > (lots of

> > > strolls down Memory Lane today) people who said that EVERYONE

> ought

> > to

> > > practice the 12 steps, alcoholic or not, and they'd get well.

> The

> > steps

> > > cure everything from cancer to ingrown toenails, y'know.

> > >

> > > Has the BB thumper come up with an answer yet?

> > >

> > > Cheers,

> > >

> > > nz

[Guest guest]

Right at this very moment there is a chap on APA Div 50 (the

listserv of the addictions division of the American Psychological

Association) who is advocating that politicians and Fortune 500 types

should be " prevailed upon " to practice 12 step to overcome their

" addiction to power " . He says that he just *knows* that addiction is

the root of all evil and 12 step the cure of it. apparently a recent

cause of his rantings is the postings on alt.recovery.from-12-steps of

SMART co-ordinator Vorous, a polite, mature man, questioning the

effectiveness of AA.

For all this man's commitment to 12-step, his commitment to anonymity

is rather illustratedby the fact that when questioned on his

professional qualifications to make such claims on a psychologists'

list, he listed his AA resume, as if that compared with professional

ceritification and clinical experience.

P.

> > > Mona tells us about someone who " ...insists working the steps

> > > cures all mental illnesses. I've asked him whether, if that is

> so,

> > then we

> > > had not better pray to HP that every bipolar, paranoid

> > schizophrenic, OCD, &

> > > etc...becomes afflicted with alcoholism or drug addiction, so

> that

> > they are

> > > given an opportunity to cure their mental illness by working the

> > steps. "

> > >

> > > Ummm....there are people who think that very thing! I remember

> > (lots of

> > > strolls down Memory Lane today) people who said that EVERYONE

> ought

> > to

> > > practice the 12 steps, alcoholic or not, and they'd get well.

> The

> > steps

> > > cure everything from cancer to ingrown toenails, y'know.

> > >

> > > Has the BB thumper come up with an answer yet?

> > >

> > > Cheers,

> > >

> > > nz

[Guest guest]

Right at this very moment there is a chap on APA Div 50 (the

listserv of the addictions division of the American Psychological

Association) who is advocating that politicians and Fortune 500 types

should be " prevailed upon " to practice 12 step to overcome their

" addiction to power " . He says that he just *knows* that addiction is

the root of all evil and 12 step the cure of it. apparently a recent

cause of his rantings is the postings on alt.recovery.from-12-steps of

SMART co-ordinator Vorous, a polite, mature man, questioning the

effectiveness of AA.

For all this man's commitment to 12-step, his commitment to anonymity

is rather illustratedby the fact that when questioned on his

professional qualifications to make such claims on a psychologists'

list, he listed his AA resume, as if that compared with professional

ceritification and clinical experience.

P.

> > > Mona tells us about someone who " ...insists working the steps

> > > cures all mental illnesses. I've asked him whether, if that is

> so,

> > then we

> > > had not better pray to HP that every bipolar, paranoid

> > schizophrenic, OCD, &

> > > etc...becomes afflicted with alcoholism or drug addiction, so

> that

> > they are

> > > given an opportunity to cure their mental illness by working the

> > steps. "

> > >

> > > Ummm....there are people who think that very thing! I remember

> > (lots of

> > > strolls down Memory Lane today) people who said that EVERYONE

> ought

> > to

> > > practice the 12 steps, alcoholic or not, and they'd get well.

> The

> > steps

> > > cure everything from cancer to ingrown toenails, y'know.

> > >

> > > Has the BB thumper come up with an answer yet?

> > >

> > > Cheers,

> > >

> > > nz

[Guest guest]

Gawd ,

As a newly dxed diabetic, youre giving me the heebie-jeebies!

Meetings for diabetes for cryssake? And in London too!

P.

> I was told by my doctors group ( doctors for gods sake ! ) when i

was not

> able to get treatment for my worsening diabetes for 3 months ( our

crap

> National Health Service ) that I should go to more meetings .

> At the time I was feeling very agitated with sky high blood sugars ,

and I

> had just arrived at the meeting . I am mandated to go , and I had

got caught

> in a storm in the middle of London , I was soaked literally through

to my

> knickers . I was also very angry , justifiably so I think .

> Fortunately I went out to bat for myself with the system and got

insulin

> injections 5 weeks later . I would have ended up in hospital if I

had taken

> the meetings cure !!!!

>

[Guest guest]

Gawd ,

As a newly dxed diabetic, youre giving me the heebie-jeebies!

Meetings for diabetes for cryssake? And in London too!

P.

> I was told by my doctors group ( doctors for gods sake ! ) when i

was not

> able to get treatment for my worsening diabetes for 3 months ( our

crap

> National Health Service ) that I should go to more meetings .

> At the time I was feeling very agitated with sky high blood sugars ,

and I

> had just arrived at the meeting . I am mandated to go , and I had

got caught

> in a storm in the middle of London , I was soaked literally through

to my

> knickers . I was also very angry , justifiably so I think .

> Fortunately I went out to bat for myself with the system and got

insulin

> injections 5 weeks later . I would have ended up in hospital if I

had taken

> the meetings cure !!!!

>

[Guest guest]

Gawd ,

As a newly dxed diabetic, youre giving me the heebie-jeebies!

Meetings for diabetes for cryssake? And in London too!

P.

> I was told by my doctors group ( doctors for gods sake ! ) when i

was not

> able to get treatment for my worsening diabetes for 3 months ( our

crap

> National Health Service ) that I should go to more meetings .

> At the time I was feeling very agitated with sky high blood sugars ,

and I

> had just arrived at the meeting . I am mandated to go , and I had

got caught

> in a storm in the middle of London , I was soaked literally through

to my

> knickers . I was also very angry , justifiably so I think .

> Fortunately I went out to bat for myself with the system and got

insulin

> injections 5 weeks later . I would have ended up in hospital if I

had taken

> the meetings cure !!!!

>

[Guest guest]

Benzo's didn't come out until the late 1950's. I wrote an interesting post a

few months ago that I edited and Jack put it in JRR (Journal of Rational

Recovery). The first, Librium, was believed to be used for alcoholic

withdrawal, then " facilitating a good therapist-patient relationship on the

road back from alcoholism " , " fewer anger outbursts, able to communicate

effectively " were the claims, all endorsed by the ASAM.

If you take a medication, your responsibility is 100%. If you say " I'm

addicted " , the doctor will take that into consideration. He should probably

ask you if you intend to take them as directed. But that's all. Of course,

every doctor when asked, or even without being asked and of course if you say

you've had a history of addiction, will give the addictive potential (mod. to

high physical, mod. emotional from what I understand as an average.) If you

were misinformed, that's another story. In the 1960's, apparently, physicians

didn't know that benzo's were addictive. But from the '70's on I think there

is widespread understanding of what they are and how they work. But the

bottom line: you want Ativan for sleep, he says you know it's a benzo

(addictive, etc.) you say yes, if you have a history of insomnia, Ativan or

Ambien are probably the two top pharmacological approaches. So then it's 100%

patient's responsibility. Controlled Substances are manufactured in quotas,

so you would be taking away from a patient if a shortage were to result. And

this is a TREMENDOUS problem among chronic pain patients. Doctors seem scared

out of their whits, from the family friends I talk to who are MD's as well as

other bits and pieces. Highly powerful painkillers are manufactured in the

smallest quotas (Schedule II-incidentally, Dexedrine, the very first

medication for alcoholic treatment, is and always has been a Schedule II

highly addictive!)

Kayleighs, you agree with this, right? As long as the doctor and patient are

informed?

[Guest guest]

Benzo's didn't come out until the late 1950's. I wrote an interesting post a

few months ago that I edited and Jack put it in JRR (Journal of Rational

Recovery). The first, Librium, was believed to be used for alcoholic

withdrawal, then " facilitating a good therapist-patient relationship on the

road back from alcoholism " , " fewer anger outbursts, able to communicate

effectively " were the claims, all endorsed by the ASAM.

If you take a medication, your responsibility is 100%. If you say " I'm

addicted " , the doctor will take that into consideration. He should probably

ask you if you intend to take them as directed. But that's all. Of course,

every doctor when asked, or even without being asked and of course if you say

you've had a history of addiction, will give the addictive potential (mod. to

high physical, mod. emotional from what I understand as an average.) If you

were misinformed, that's another story. In the 1960's, apparently, physicians

didn't know that benzo's were addictive. But from the '70's on I think there

is widespread understanding of what they are and how they work. But the

bottom line: you want Ativan for sleep, he says you know it's a benzo

(addictive, etc.) you say yes, if you have a history of insomnia, Ativan or

Ambien are probably the two top pharmacological approaches. So then it's 100%

patient's responsibility. Controlled Substances are manufactured in quotas,

so you would be taking away from a patient if a shortage were to result. And

this is a TREMENDOUS problem among chronic pain patients. Doctors seem scared

out of their whits, from the family friends I talk to who are MD's as well as

other bits and pieces. Highly powerful painkillers are manufactured in the

smallest quotas (Schedule II-incidentally, Dexedrine, the very first

medication for alcoholic treatment, is and always has been a Schedule II

highly addictive!)

Kayleighs, you agree with this, right? As long as the doctor and patient are

informed?

[Guest guest]

Benzo's didn't come out until the late 1950's. I wrote an interesting post a

few months ago that I edited and Jack put it in JRR (Journal of Rational

Recovery). The first, Librium, was believed to be used for alcoholic

withdrawal, then " facilitating a good therapist-patient relationship on the

road back from alcoholism " , " fewer anger outbursts, able to communicate

effectively " were the claims, all endorsed by the ASAM.

If you take a medication, your responsibility is 100%. If you say " I'm

addicted " , the doctor will take that into consideration. He should probably

ask you if you intend to take them as directed. But that's all. Of course,

every doctor when asked, or even without being asked and of course if you say

you've had a history of addiction, will give the addictive potential (mod. to

high physical, mod. emotional from what I understand as an average.) If you

were misinformed, that's another story. In the 1960's, apparently, physicians

didn't know that benzo's were addictive. But from the '70's on I think there

is widespread understanding of what they are and how they work. But the

bottom line: you want Ativan for sleep, he says you know it's a benzo

(addictive, etc.) you say yes, if you have a history of insomnia, Ativan or

Ambien are probably the two top pharmacological approaches. So then it's 100%

patient's responsibility. Controlled Substances are manufactured in quotas,

so you would be taking away from a patient if a shortage were to result. And

this is a TREMENDOUS problem among chronic pain patients. Doctors seem scared

out of their whits, from the family friends I talk to who are MD's as well as

other bits and pieces. Highly powerful painkillers are manufactured in the

smallest quotas (Schedule II-incidentally, Dexedrine, the very first

medication for alcoholic treatment, is and always has been a Schedule II

highly addictive!)

Kayleighs, you agree with this, right? As long as the doctor and patient are

informed?

[Guest guest]

Yet in OA overweight is

> always thought of as a sign of overeating, and exercising to control

> weight as a symptom of addiction.

>

> P.

Hi Pete,

My jaw literally fell open when I read these words!

[Guest guest]

Yet in OA overweight is

> always thought of as a sign of overeating, and exercising to control

> weight as a symptom of addiction.

>

> P.

Hi Pete,

My jaw literally fell open when I read these words!

[Guest guest]

Yet in OA overweight is

> always thought of as a sign of overeating, and exercising to control

> weight as a symptom of addiction.

>

> P.

Hi Pete,

My jaw literally fell open when I read these words!

[Guest guest]

> Yet in OA overweight is

> > always thought of as a sign of overeating, and exercising to

> >control

> > weight as a symptom of addiction.

> Hi Pete,

>

> My jaw literally fell open when I read these words!

>

>

I hope it wasnt to put food in!

[Guest guest]

> Yet in OA overweight is

> > always thought of as a sign of overeating, and exercising to

> >control

> > weight as a symptom of addiction.

> Hi Pete,

>

> My jaw literally fell open when I read these words!

>

>

I hope it wasnt to put food in!

[Guest guest]

Yet in OA overweight is

> always thought of as a sign of overeating, and exercising to

control

> weight as a symptom of addiction.

>

> P.

I remember this being the case, too. I hadn't thought about it in a

long time. I used to exercise quite a bit in high school, rather

compulsively, I have to admit. When I became a full fledged bulimic,

I saw exercise as a waste of time - I'd figured out an " easier way " .

When I was 19 and going to OA sometimes and AA most of the time and

living with a 39 year old man from AA, my Dad took my car away as a

punishment. He didn't care for the 39 year old man. My city has a bad

case of urban sprawl and terrible public transportation, so I had to

ride my bike everywhere. I remember my OA sponsor being concerned,

despite the far more destructive bulimia that was still going on,

that I might be " using " the incidental exercise I got from not having

a car. I still shake my head when I think about her. Even if the bike

riding hadn't been a necessity and even if I had been exercising

compulsively, that would have been far better than the method I *was*

using to control my weight. I guess she was never a fan of the " harm

reduction " idea.

Joan

>

> >

> > I think one of the reasons OA doesn't have the sort of

stranglehold

> > on the weight management industry like AA does over alcohol

> treatment

> > is because the silliness of the whole idea is so easily spotted.

>

> I've seen a newcomer crack up giggling when she read out: " Remember

we

> are powerless over food - cunning, baffling, powerful. "

> >

> > Along the lines of your UA idea, I was thinking of a program for

> > people who don't exercise enough. Afterall, if too much can be an

> > addiction, why not too little? CPA (Couch Potatoes

> >Anonymous),anyone?

>

> A handout my GP gave me states that in the UK anyway the average

diet

> contains fewer calories than that 20 yrs ago - but we are getting

> fatter and fatter through lack of exercise. Yet in OA overweight

is

> always thought of as a sign of overeating, and exercising to

control

> weight as a symptom of addiction.

>

> P.

[Guest guest]

i could tottaly wrong on this, given i know little about OA, but i can see how

stepper logic could

work to make exercise and act of control and empowerment, and as we know, in the

step world

we are told we our actualy powerless, and our attempts to manage out " diseases "

are

suppsoedly symptoms of it.

this all goes back to being powerless before god. if you were empowered, you

wouldnt need

god, and since XA is about god and not behavior, you msut in turn become to

think of yourself

as helpless before ytou become williing to belive in god given " miracles " .

> > Yet in OA overweight is

> > > always thought of as a sign of overeating, and exercising to

> > >control

> > > weight as a symptom of addiction.

>

> > Hi Pete,

> >

> > My jaw literally fell open when I read these words!

> >

> >

>

> I hope it wasnt to put food in!

[Guest guest]

i could tottaly wrong on this, given i know little about OA, but i can see how

stepper logic could

work to make exercise and act of control and empowerment, and as we know, in the

step world

we are told we our actualy powerless, and our attempts to manage out " diseases "

are

suppsoedly symptoms of it.

this all goes back to being powerless before god. if you were empowered, you

wouldnt need

god, and since XA is about god and not behavior, you msut in turn become to

think of yourself

as helpless before ytou become williing to belive in god given " miracles " .

> > Yet in OA overweight is

> > > always thought of as a sign of overeating, and exercising to

> > >control

> > > weight as a symptom of addiction.

>

> > Hi Pete,

> >

> > My jaw literally fell open when I read these words!

> >

> >

>

> I hope it wasnt to put food in!

[Guest guest]

i could tottaly wrong on this, given i know little about OA, but i can see how

stepper logic could

work to make exercise and act of control and empowerment, and as we know, in the

step world

we are told we our actualy powerless, and our attempts to manage out " diseases "

are

suppsoedly symptoms of it.

this all goes back to being powerless before god. if you were empowered, you

wouldnt need

god, and since XA is about god and not behavior, you msut in turn become to

think of yourself

as helpless before ytou become williing to belive in god given " miracles " .

> > Yet in OA overweight is

> > > always thought of as a sign of overeating, and exercising to

> > >control

> > > weight as a symptom of addiction.

>

> > Hi Pete,

> >

> > My jaw literally fell open when I read these words!

> >

> >

>

> I hope it wasnt to put food in!

[Guest guest]

I am not entirely sure what you are asking me. If the question is,

may doctors prescribe potentially addictive drugs as long as the

patient knows it is potentially addictive and the doctor knows the

patient's history of addiction, then the answer in this state is " No. "

There are certain exceptions, mainly for chronic pain patients, but

I'm not up-to-date on what they are, or even on how " chronic pain " is

defined.

I can also tell you from personal experience, however, that some

doctors believe that treatment is looney-tunes and the diagnoses of

alcoholism and addiction are often wrong, since they are made by

pseudo-professionals who have (perhaps not as much now as in the past)

a very strong profit motive. Those doctors will sneer at past

diagnoses and prescribe as they think is appropriate. They also make

distinctions, based on the behavior of the patient, as to whether the

patient is likely to abuse a particular drug or not. For example, my

doctor will prescribe Valium or pain pills for me without any fear

that I will abuse them. He would be much more cautious with my

husband. (Clarification: he prescribed five days worth of Valium for

me once to get me through a very anxiety producing, temporary,

situation. On two occasions he has prescribed one tablet for me to

get me through kind of scary medical procedures. On maybe three

occasions when I was injured he has prescribed pain pills that are

defined as potentially addictive for varying periods, depending on how

extreme the pain was. This is only my general practice physician,

doesn't include prescriptions that surgeons or orthopedists have given

me. The surgeons and orthopedists did not inquire about my history.)

> Benzo's didn't come out until the late 1950's. I wrote an

interesting post a

> few months ago that I edited and Jack put it in JRR (Journal of

Rational

> Recovery). The first, Librium, was believed to be used for alcoholic

> withdrawal, then " facilitating a good therapist-patient relationship

on the

> road back from alcoholism " , " fewer anger outbursts, able to

communicate

> effectively " were the claims, all endorsed by the ASAM.

>

> If you take a medication, your responsibility is 100%. If you say

" I'm

> addicted " , the doctor will take that into consideration. He should

probably

> ask you if you intend to take them as directed. But that's all. Of

course,

> every doctor when asked, or even without being asked and of course

if you say

> you've had a history of addiction, will give the addictive potential

(mod. to

> high physical, mod. emotional from what I understand as an average.)

If you

> were misinformed, that's another story. In the 1960's, apparently,

physicians

> didn't know that benzo's were addictive. But from the '70's on I

think there

> is widespread understanding of what they are and how they work. But

the

> bottom line: you want Ativan for sleep, he says you know it's a

benzo

> (addictive, etc.) you say yes, if you have a history of insomnia,

Ativan or

> Ambien are probably the two top pharmacological approaches. So then

it's 100%

> patient's responsibility. Controlled Substances are manufactured in

quotas,

> so you would be taking away from a patient if a shortage were to

result. And

> this is a TREMENDOUS problem among chronic pain patients. Doctors

seem scared

> out of their whits, from the family friends I talk to who are MD's

as well as

> other bits and pieces. Highly powerful painkillers are manufactured

in the

> smallest quotas (Schedule II-incidentally, Dexedrine, the very first

> medication for alcoholic treatment, is and always has been a

Schedule II

> highly addictive!)

>

> Kayleighs, you agree with this, right? As long as the doctor and

patient are

> informed?