Addoction Is a Choice

[Guest guest]

I think that it's important to understand the proper progression of events.

She was the founder of Moderation Management who, at a certain point, felt

no longer able to moderate. She then elected to use Alcoholics Anonymous to

maintain abstinence. Shortly into the program, it failed and - surprise!

surprise! surprise!- she became a multiple murderer. Moderation may have

eventually proven not to have worked as a permanent solution, but it's

principals seemed to have kept her from suffering negative consequences

while AA's principals seemed to have turned her into a murderer- or is that

mass-murderer?

Re: Addoction Is a Choice "

> Prior to being involved in the accident she had given up allretense at

> drinking in moderation and was once more drinking alcoholically, or

> abusively, whichever description you prefer.

> >From: MonaHolland@...

> > > Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she?

> >

> >She is founder of Moderation Management, a support group for those who

> >choose

> >attempting to moderate their use of alcohol over abstinence. About a

year

> >ago she drove incredibly drunk, and killed a man and his 12-year-old

> >daughter. She is currently in prison.

> >

> >--Mona--

>

> _________________________________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Talking about Kishline and suicide reminds me of something from way back .

My fathers'partner in his practice was married , and I really loved his wife

, she was Auntie Ana to me .

However she developed a drinking problem . This was a small town where

everyone knew everyone elses business

There were no real facilities 25 years ago for people like her , and nothing

seemed to help .

my dad kept telling Maurice to take the car keys off her .

Well one day she went out and crashed the car into a tree , nearly taking

another motorists life with her , she was killed out right .

Some said suicide , who knows what is going on in a persons head . I have

never forgotten her and I felt she got a bad deal in the treatment stakes .

My cousin died in her own vomit after taking alcohol in large quantities

coupled with valium tablets---was it suicide , dont know .

[Guest guest]

Talking about Kishline and suicide reminds me of something from way back .

My fathers'partner in his practice was married , and I really loved his wife

, she was Auntie Ana to me .

However she developed a drinking problem . This was a small town where

everyone knew everyone elses business

There were no real facilities 25 years ago for people like her , and nothing

seemed to help .

my dad kept telling Maurice to take the car keys off her .

Well one day she went out and crashed the car into a tree , nearly taking

another motorists life with her , she was killed out right .

Some said suicide , who knows what is going on in a persons head . I have

never forgotten her and I felt she got a bad deal in the treatment stakes .

My cousin died in her own vomit after taking alcohol in large quantities

coupled with valium tablets---was it suicide , dont know .

[Guest guest]

Talking about Kishline and suicide reminds me of something from way back .

My fathers'partner in his practice was married , and I really loved his wife

, she was Auntie Ana to me .

However she developed a drinking problem . This was a small town where

everyone knew everyone elses business

There were no real facilities 25 years ago for people like her , and nothing

seemed to help .

my dad kept telling Maurice to take the car keys off her .

Well one day she went out and crashed the car into a tree , nearly taking

another motorists life with her , she was killed out right .

Some said suicide , who knows what is going on in a persons head . I have

never forgotten her and I felt she got a bad deal in the treatment stakes .

My cousin died in her own vomit after taking alcohol in large quantities

coupled with valium tablets---was it suicide , dont know .

[Guest guest]

> Prior to being involved in the accident she had given up allretense at

> drinking in moderation and was once more drinking alcoholically, or

> abusively, whichever description you prefer.

>

-------------

That's a good point. It's sickening to hear people say " That's what

happens when someone moderates... " -- she was NOT " moderating " , and did not

claim to be.

I do wonder what was going on for her at the time though. It is known that

she was having marital and financial difficulties for a while preceding the

incident (and as Peele pointed out, there has to be a reason why someone who had

been drinking non-problematically for years would begin to drink very abusively

again). Some people on other lists have speculated that she may have been

trying (perhaps subconsciously) to commit suicide in a rather convoluted way.

Or maybe she was screaming for attention, for someone to hear whatever pain she

was in. Apparently no one listened.

~Rita

> >From: MonaHolland@a...

> >Reply-To: 12-step-free@y...

> >To: 12-step-free@y...

> >Subject: Re: Addoction Is a Choice "

> >Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 23:54:42 EDT

> >

> >In a message dated 5/5/01 5:31:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ghhws1@h...

> >writes:

> >

> >

> > > Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she?

> >

> >She is founder of Moderation Management, a support group for those who

> >choose

> >attempting to moderate their use of alcohol over abstinence. About a year

> >ago she drove incredibly drunk, and killed a man and his 12-year-old

> >daughter. She is currently in prison.

> >

> >--Mona--

[Guest guest]

It seems to me that after you've gone through a regime of Chinese-style

brainwashing to convince you that you can't control your drinking,

subsequent drinking may involve some unusual risks.

Yes, but Kishline was uniquely positioned to have been deprogrammed. I don't see any morality tale in her getting behind the wheel of a car with a BAC of .26, but my strong bias is that moderation is bullshit. As a technique of "harm management" I see value in promoting the concept that a slip need not equal a binge, and that one can and should get right back in the sobriety saddle again. Also, the sober time before the slip is not somehow negated.

Some have observed her life hit a real rough patch that undermined her successful track record of moderation; Duh? A lot of us go over the edge into heavy and harmful drinking during periods of crisis, and have more success being normal when things are relatively stable, when self-medication is not a felt need. But given that into every life a lot of rain can fall, and even flood, seeking moderation seems unwise for anyone who has crossed the line.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

It seems to me that after you've gone through a regime of Chinese-style

brainwashing to convince you that you can't control your drinking,

subsequent drinking may involve some unusual risks.

Yes, but Kishline was uniquely positioned to have been deprogrammed. I don't see any morality tale in her getting behind the wheel of a car with a BAC of .26, but my strong bias is that moderation is bullshit. As a technique of "harm management" I see value in promoting the concept that a slip need not equal a binge, and that one can and should get right back in the sobriety saddle again. Also, the sober time before the slip is not somehow negated.

Some have observed her life hit a real rough patch that undermined her successful track record of moderation; Duh? A lot of us go over the edge into heavy and harmful drinking during periods of crisis, and have more success being normal when things are relatively stable, when self-medication is not a felt need. But given that into every life a lot of rain can fall, and even flood, seeking moderation seems unwise for anyone who has crossed the line.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

It seems to me that after you've gone through a regime of Chinese-style

brainwashing to convince you that you can't control your drinking,

subsequent drinking may involve some unusual risks.

Yes, but Kishline was uniquely positioned to have been deprogrammed. I don't see any morality tale in her getting behind the wheel of a car with a BAC of .26, but my strong bias is that moderation is bullshit. As a technique of "harm management" I see value in promoting the concept that a slip need not equal a binge, and that one can and should get right back in the sobriety saddle again. Also, the sober time before the slip is not somehow negated.

Some have observed her life hit a real rough patch that undermined her successful track record of moderation; Duh? A lot of us go over the edge into heavy and harmful drinking during periods of crisis, and have more success being normal when things are relatively stable, when self-medication is not a felt need. But given that into every life a lot of rain can fall, and even flood, seeking moderation seems unwise for anyone who has crossed the line.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

I don't see Audrey having at all been uniquely positioned to have been

deprogrammed for a number of reasons. She was in a public position

where she believed that criticism of AA was not to be made.

Well, sure, and as a tactical PR decision that may have been wise. But she knows Peele and Schaler, and thus was far more familiar with alternatives and "AA bashing" than most people with alcohol issues. I, too, find it politic to keep my more rabid disgust with the Steppers muted in certain fora, but it simply wouldn't be possible for anyone to seduce me into Steppism, given all that I know. Surely she is/was as aware of these things as I or most on this list?

Don't get me wrong, I do have tremendous sympathy for the woman, simply because I cannot imagine how one goes on living having killed two innocent people, one of them a child. And let us be honest; she simply lost the crap shoot. On a number of occasions I could have killed someone when I got in a 3 ton moving machine while wasted, and drove. I'd wager that is true of any number of people reading this thread.

That's one hell of a terrible way to learn that abstinence is one's only option. My heart does go out to her.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

I don't see Audrey having at all been uniquely positioned to have been

deprogrammed for a number of reasons. She was in a public position

where she believed that criticism of AA was not to be made.

Well, sure, and as a tactical PR decision that may have been wise. But she knows Peele and Schaler, and thus was far more familiar with alternatives and "AA bashing" than most people with alcohol issues. I, too, find it politic to keep my more rabid disgust with the Steppers muted in certain fora, but it simply wouldn't be possible for anyone to seduce me into Steppism, given all that I know. Surely she is/was as aware of these things as I or most on this list?

Don't get me wrong, I do have tremendous sympathy for the woman, simply because I cannot imagine how one goes on living having killed two innocent people, one of them a child. And let us be honest; she simply lost the crap shoot. On a number of occasions I could have killed someone when I got in a 3 ton moving machine while wasted, and drove. I'd wager that is true of any number of people reading this thread.

That's one hell of a terrible way to learn that abstinence is one's only option. My heart does go out to her.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

I don't see Audrey having at all been uniquely positioned to have been

deprogrammed for a number of reasons. She was in a public position

where she believed that criticism of AA was not to be made.

Well, sure, and as a tactical PR decision that may have been wise. But she knows Peele and Schaler, and thus was far more familiar with alternatives and "AA bashing" than most people with alcohol issues. I, too, find it politic to keep my more rabid disgust with the Steppers muted in certain fora, but it simply wouldn't be possible for anyone to seduce me into Steppism, given all that I know. Surely she is/was as aware of these things as I or most on this list?

Don't get me wrong, I do have tremendous sympathy for the woman, simply because I cannot imagine how one goes on living having killed two innocent people, one of them a child. And let us be honest; she simply lost the crap shoot. On a number of occasions I could have killed someone when I got in a 3 ton moving machine while wasted, and drove. I'd wager that is true of any number of people reading this thread.

That's one hell of a terrible way to learn that abstinence is one's only option. My heart does go out to her.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

I think it's also worth pointing out that before starting MM, Ms. Kishline

had been through treatment and had attended AA, and (according to her book)

her drinking got worse after treatment.

It seems to me that after you've gone through a regime of Chinese-style

brainwashing to convince you that you can't control your drinking,

subsequent drinking may involve some unusual risks.

--wally

----- Original Message -----

>

>

> > Prior to being involved in the accident she had given up allretense at

> > drinking in moderation and was once more drinking alcoholically, or

> > abusively, whichever description you prefer.

> >

> -------------

>

> That's a good point. It's sickening to hear people say " That's what

happens when someone moderates... " -- she was NOT " moderating " , and did not

claim to be.

>

> I do wonder what was going on for her at the time though. It is

known that she was having marital and financial difficulties for a while

preceding the incident (and as Peele pointed out, there has to be a reason

why someone who had been drinking non-problematically for years would begin

to drink very abusively again). Some people on other lists have speculated

that she may have been trying (perhaps subconsciously) to commit suicide in

a rather convoluted way. Or maybe she was screaming for attention, for

someone to hear whatever pain she was in. Apparently no one listened.

>

> ~Rita

[Guest guest]

I think it's also worth pointing out that before starting MM, Ms. Kishline

had been through treatment and had attended AA, and (according to her book)

her drinking got worse after treatment.

It seems to me that after you've gone through a regime of Chinese-style

brainwashing to convince you that you can't control your drinking,

subsequent drinking may involve some unusual risks.

--wally

----- Original Message -----

>

>

> > Prior to being involved in the accident she had given up allretense at

> > drinking in moderation and was once more drinking alcoholically, or

> > abusively, whichever description you prefer.

> >

> -------------

>

> That's a good point. It's sickening to hear people say " That's what

happens when someone moderates... " -- she was NOT " moderating " , and did not

claim to be.

>

> I do wonder what was going on for her at the time though. It is

known that she was having marital and financial difficulties for a while

preceding the incident (and as Peele pointed out, there has to be a reason

why someone who had been drinking non-problematically for years would begin

to drink very abusively again). Some people on other lists have speculated

that she may have been trying (perhaps subconsciously) to commit suicide in

a rather convoluted way. Or maybe she was screaming for attention, for

someone to hear whatever pain she was in. Apparently no one listened.

>

> ~Rita

[Guest guest]

MonaHolland@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/7/01 11:45:17 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

> wagt@... writes:

>

>

>

>> It seems to me that after you've gone through a regime of

>> Chinese-style

>> brainwashing to convince you that you can't control your drinking,

>> subsequent drinking may involve some unusual risks.

>

> Yes, but Kishline was uniquely positioned to have been deprogrammed.

> I don't

> see any morality tale in her getting behind the wheel of a car with a

> BAC of

> .26, but my strong bias is that moderation is bullshit. As a

> technique of

> " harm management " I see value in promoting the concept that a slip

> need not

> equal a binge, and that one can and should get right back in the

> sobriety

> saddle again. Also, the sober time before the slip is not somehow

> negated.

>

> Some have observed her life hit a real rough patch that undermined her

>

> successful track record of moderation; Duh? A lot of us go over the

> edge

> into heavy and harmful drinking during periods of crisis, and have

> more

> success being normal when things are relatively stable, when

> self-medication

> is not a felt need. But given that into every life a lot of rain can

> fall,

> and even flood, seeking moderation seems unwise for anyone who has

> crossed

> the line.

>

> --Mona--

Mona,

I don't see Audrey having at all been uniquely positioned to have been

deprogrammed for a number of reasons. She was in a public position

where she believed that criticism of AA was not to be made. She took a

public stand that was pro-disease, at least in the sense, " There are

alcoholics and not-alcoholics. " It seems that the advice she got from

the experts was all focusing on alcohol rather than seriously addressing

the " problems in living " she most certainly was confronted with. There

were, from what I've heard from people who know her, chronic daily

problems with her family (e.g. marital problems) that weren't addressed.

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

MonaHolland@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/7/01 11:45:17 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

> wagt@... writes:

>

>

>

>> It seems to me that after you've gone through a regime of

>> Chinese-style

>> brainwashing to convince you that you can't control your drinking,

>> subsequent drinking may involve some unusual risks.

>

> Yes, but Kishline was uniquely positioned to have been deprogrammed.

> I don't

> see any morality tale in her getting behind the wheel of a car with a

> BAC of

> .26, but my strong bias is that moderation is bullshit. As a

> technique of

> " harm management " I see value in promoting the concept that a slip

> need not

> equal a binge, and that one can and should get right back in the

> sobriety

> saddle again. Also, the sober time before the slip is not somehow

> negated.

>

> Some have observed her life hit a real rough patch that undermined her

>

> successful track record of moderation; Duh? A lot of us go over the

> edge

> into heavy and harmful drinking during periods of crisis, and have

> more

> success being normal when things are relatively stable, when

> self-medication

> is not a felt need. But given that into every life a lot of rain can

> fall,

> and even flood, seeking moderation seems unwise for anyone who has

> crossed

> the line.

>

> --Mona--

Mona,

I don't see Audrey having at all been uniquely positioned to have been

deprogrammed for a number of reasons. She was in a public position

where she believed that criticism of AA was not to be made. She took a

public stand that was pro-disease, at least in the sense, " There are

alcoholics and not-alcoholics. " It seems that the advice she got from

the experts was all focusing on alcohol rather than seriously addressing

the " problems in living " she most certainly was confronted with. There

were, from what I've heard from people who know her, chronic daily

problems with her family (e.g. marital problems) that weren't addressed.

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

How many alternatives were available when Audrey founded MM? Audrey

may have known Peele and Schaler, but have they ever recommended any

alternatives? I think she was like most of us, flying blind.

> In a message dated 5/7/01 1:59:23 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

kenr1@c...

> writes:

>

>

> > I don't see Audrey having at all been uniquely positioned to have

been

> > deprogrammed for a number of reasons. She was in a public

position

> > where she believed that criticism of AA was not to be made.

>

> Well, sure, and as a tactical PR decision that may have been wise.

But she

> knows Peele and Schaler, and thus was far more familiar with

alternatives and

> " AA bashing " than most people with alcohol issues. I, too, find it

politic

> to keep my more rabid disgust with the Steppers muted in certain

fora, but it

> simply wouldn't be possible for anyone to seduce me into Steppism,

given all

> that I know. Surely she is/was as aware of these things as I or

most on this

> list?

>

> Don't get me wrong, I do have tremendous sympathy for the woman,

simply

> because I cannot imagine how one goes on living having killed two

innocent

> people, one of them a child. And let us be honest; she simply lost

the crap

> shoot. On a number of occasions I could have killed someone when I

got in a

> 3 ton moving machine while wasted, and drove. I'd wager that is

true of any

> number of people reading this thread.

>

> That's one hell of a terrible way to learn that abstinence is one's

only

> option. My heart does go out to her.

>

> --Mona--

[Guest guest]

How many alternatives were available when Audrey founded MM? Audrey

may have known Peele and Schaler, but have they ever recommended any

alternatives? I think she was like most of us, flying blind.

> In a message dated 5/7/01 1:59:23 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

kenr1@c...

> writes:

>

>

> > I don't see Audrey having at all been uniquely positioned to have

been

> > deprogrammed for a number of reasons. She was in a public

position

> > where she believed that criticism of AA was not to be made.

>

> Well, sure, and as a tactical PR decision that may have been wise.

But she

> knows Peele and Schaler, and thus was far more familiar with

alternatives and

> " AA bashing " than most people with alcohol issues. I, too, find it

politic

> to keep my more rabid disgust with the Steppers muted in certain

fora, but it

> simply wouldn't be possible for anyone to seduce me into Steppism,

given all

> that I know. Surely she is/was as aware of these things as I or

most on this

> list?

>

> Don't get me wrong, I do have tremendous sympathy for the woman,

simply

> because I cannot imagine how one goes on living having killed two

innocent

> people, one of them a child. And let us be honest; she simply lost

the crap

> shoot. On a number of occasions I could have killed someone when I

got in a

> 3 ton moving machine while wasted, and drove. I'd wager that is

true of any

> number of people reading this thread.

>

> That's one hell of a terrible way to learn that abstinence is one's

only

> option. My heart does go out to her.

>

> --Mona--

[Guest guest]

How many alternatives were available when Audrey founded MM? Audrey

may have known Peele and Schaler, but have they ever recommended any

alternatives? I think she was like most of us, flying blind.

> In a message dated 5/7/01 1:59:23 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

kenr1@c...

> writes:

>

>

> > I don't see Audrey having at all been uniquely positioned to have

been

> > deprogrammed for a number of reasons. She was in a public

position

> > where she believed that criticism of AA was not to be made.

>

> Well, sure, and as a tactical PR decision that may have been wise.

But she

> knows Peele and Schaler, and thus was far more familiar with

alternatives and

> " AA bashing " than most people with alcohol issues. I, too, find it

politic

> to keep my more rabid disgust with the Steppers muted in certain

fora, but it

> simply wouldn't be possible for anyone to seduce me into Steppism,

given all

> that I know. Surely she is/was as aware of these things as I or

most on this

> list?

>

> Don't get me wrong, I do have tremendous sympathy for the woman,

simply

> because I cannot imagine how one goes on living having killed two

innocent

> people, one of them a child. And let us be honest; she simply lost

the crap

> shoot. On a number of occasions I could have killed someone when I

got in a

> 3 ton moving machine while wasted, and drove. I'd wager that is

true of any

> number of people reading this thread.

>

> That's one hell of a terrible way to learn that abstinence is one's

only

> option. My heart does go out to her.

>

> --Mona--

[Guest guest]

Hi Mona,

>

> That's one hell of a terrible way to learn that abstinence is one's

only option. My heart does go out to her.

I agreed with every other thing in this thread, except this. Maybe

abstinence was HER only option (although it didn't seem to do her much

good - AA style), but " one's only option " seems to include all of us

in it. I don't consider it my only option.

Hicks

[Guest guest]

Hi Mona,

>

> That's one hell of a terrible way to learn that abstinence is one's

only option. My heart does go out to her.

I agreed with every other thing in this thread, except this. Maybe

abstinence was HER only option (although it didn't seem to do her much

good - AA style), but " one's only option " seems to include all of us

in it. I don't consider it my only option.

Hicks

[Guest guest]

Hi Mona,

>

> That's one hell of a terrible way to learn that abstinence is one's

only option. My heart does go out to her.

I agreed with every other thing in this thread, except this. Maybe

abstinence was HER only option (although it didn't seem to do her much

good - AA style), but " one's only option " seems to include all of us

in it. I don't consider it my only option.

Hicks

[Guest guest]

sorry, I hit " send " by accident, I was starting to type:

If you look at the ideology of the groups in chronological order, there seems

to be a progressive pattern to me, moving away from 12-step tenets...WFS, for

example, believes in disease concept and uses spiritually based ideology,

like AA, but used a more individual-empowering mindset but also focused on

group activity importance (of course AA is group-overdosed in ideology.) The

groups have grown more critical over the years and weaned down in group

thought (I've read in several places the old version of RR in '85 was the

first to criticize AA and recommended a limited period of group

participation, which was also unheard of prior to then.) I'm not a historian

on the groups so I won't try to summarize what I understand about each one,

I'm sure others have a general synopsis.

However, my main point is that the mind-control aspects of the 12-step groups

along with the covert web that has grown into coercion, mandated AA,

dominance in the medical profession, etc. has made the " only way " view, in a

sense, the current situation. And the other groups have certainly been

subject to AA's dominance and threats.

But all of the groups have carried over one AA creation, the group recovery

ideology, which has some inherent problems...for example, any line of thought

becomes limiting when used in a group setting in order to apply to everyone.

I think the idea of " self-help books " ideally is the best format...of course

a popular topic in the media is criticism of them, which isn't surprising

since a person is taking a crapshoot if they go into a Border's or other

large bookstore and randomly pick something out, and the marketing department

at WSO, not surprisingly, picked up on this early on with the Hazelden

publishing division, a typical organization which (in Ken's term) is " not

AA " . Some of the magazine articles have declared the idea of using a book too

anti-social and like the idea of " self-help meetings " , which I do not know

of, but perhaps that invention is down the road, it would certainly be a

breakthrough. (I'm being sarcastic, I think it is an oxymoron.) Anyways I

hope noone has suffered as a result of my overindulgent writing, I have had a

week off with nothing to do, which means I'm sliding down the slippery slope

and didn't realize it until I just typed that...this is the disease of denial

you know (and denial is not the river in Egypt, stupid!) my sponsor told me

that one, isn't it creative?

Nick

[Guest guest]

sorry, I hit " send " by accident, I was starting to type:

If you look at the ideology of the groups in chronological order, there seems

to be a progressive pattern to me, moving away from 12-step tenets...WFS, for

example, believes in disease concept and uses spiritually based ideology,

like AA, but used a more individual-empowering mindset but also focused on

group activity importance (of course AA is group-overdosed in ideology.) The

groups have grown more critical over the years and weaned down in group

thought (I've read in several places the old version of RR in '85 was the

first to criticize AA and recommended a limited period of group

participation, which was also unheard of prior to then.) I'm not a historian

on the groups so I won't try to summarize what I understand about each one,

I'm sure others have a general synopsis.

However, my main point is that the mind-control aspects of the 12-step groups

along with the covert web that has grown into coercion, mandated AA,

dominance in the medical profession, etc. has made the " only way " view, in a

sense, the current situation. And the other groups have certainly been

subject to AA's dominance and threats.

But all of the groups have carried over one AA creation, the group recovery

ideology, which has some inherent problems...for example, any line of thought

becomes limiting when used in a group setting in order to apply to everyone.

I think the idea of " self-help books " ideally is the best format...of course

a popular topic in the media is criticism of them, which isn't surprising

since a person is taking a crapshoot if they go into a Border's or other

large bookstore and randomly pick something out, and the marketing department

at WSO, not surprisingly, picked up on this early on with the Hazelden

publishing division, a typical organization which (in Ken's term) is " not

AA " . Some of the magazine articles have declared the idea of using a book too

anti-social and like the idea of " self-help meetings " , which I do not know

of, but perhaps that invention is down the road, it would certainly be a

breakthrough. (I'm being sarcastic, I think it is an oxymoron.) Anyways I

hope noone has suffered as a result of my overindulgent writing, I have had a

week off with nothing to do, which means I'm sliding down the slippery slope

and didn't realize it until I just typed that...this is the disease of denial

you know (and denial is not the river in Egypt, stupid!) my sponsor told me

that one, isn't it creative?

Nick

[Guest guest]

sorry, I hit " send " by accident, I was starting to type:

If you look at the ideology of the groups in chronological order, there seems

to be a progressive pattern to me, moving away from 12-step tenets...WFS, for

example, believes in disease concept and uses spiritually based ideology,

like AA, but used a more individual-empowering mindset but also focused on

group activity importance (of course AA is group-overdosed in ideology.) The

groups have grown more critical over the years and weaned down in group

thought (I've read in several places the old version of RR in '85 was the

first to criticize AA and recommended a limited period of group

participation, which was also unheard of prior to then.) I'm not a historian

on the groups so I won't try to summarize what I understand about each one,

I'm sure others have a general synopsis.

However, my main point is that the mind-control aspects of the 12-step groups

along with the covert web that has grown into coercion, mandated AA,

dominance in the medical profession, etc. has made the " only way " view, in a

sense, the current situation. And the other groups have certainly been

subject to AA's dominance and threats.

But all of the groups have carried over one AA creation, the group recovery

ideology, which has some inherent problems...for example, any line of thought

becomes limiting when used in a group setting in order to apply to everyone.

I think the idea of " self-help books " ideally is the best format...of course

a popular topic in the media is criticism of them, which isn't surprising

since a person is taking a crapshoot if they go into a Border's or other

large bookstore and randomly pick something out, and the marketing department

at WSO, not surprisingly, picked up on this early on with the Hazelden

publishing division, a typical organization which (in Ken's term) is " not

AA " . Some of the magazine articles have declared the idea of using a book too

anti-social and like the idea of " self-help meetings " , which I do not know

of, but perhaps that invention is down the road, it would certainly be a

breakthrough. (I'm being sarcastic, I think it is an oxymoron.) Anyways I

hope noone has suffered as a result of my overindulgent writing, I have had a

week off with nothing to do, which means I'm sliding down the slippery slope

and didn't realize it until I just typed that...this is the disease of denial

you know (and denial is not the river in Egypt, stupid!) my sponsor told me

that one, isn't it creative?

Nick

[Guest guest]

SMART is doing well here in northern Vermont. We have 2 weekly meetings, one in Burlington and one in St. Albians. About ten people attend each meeting. We have about 5 members who have been facilitating these meetings and we have been around for about 4 years. And oh....our meetings are not held in prisons. So there.

Neil