Addoction Is a Choice

May 2, 2001

Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of

Schaler but didn't know he had written any books (that's being a little

generous, I think, but I don't know what else to call it) until I saw it in

the bookstore last week and bought it. I'm not normally a literary critic but

next to the Hazelden propaganda this is probably the worst book written on

addictions I've ever read. One would think in a fairly brief text (under 150

pages) some original idea would be emphasized...or at least brought up. There

is nothing original that I could find in this book! Isn't the comparison of

addictive " disease " to diabetes getting kind of old? What really seemed

bizarre was the paranoid tone, and constant references to " Orwellian

double-think " , etc., (the " Project MATCH " cover-up??) as well as his stance

on moderation, that the heaviest drinkers are the best " moderators " . So that

means that those who drink less have more difficulty with moderation? I

suppose maybe that was the intention of this book, to tout moderation again.

It's too bad there can't be more open criticism of AA which doesn't have a

tone of criticizing abstinence as well.

Nick

May 3, 2001

> Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of

> Schaler but didn't know he had written any books (that's being a

little

> generous, I think, but I don't know what else to call it) until I

saw it in

> the bookstore last week and bought it. I'm not normally a literary

critic but

> next to the Hazelden propaganda this is probably the worst book

written on

> addictions I've ever read.

Hi Nick,

When I read that one, it was the ONLY non-AA viewpoint that I'd ever

read--so it holds a bit of a fond place in my heart. That said, I

agree, it is a terrible book, but at least he had SOME sort of an

editor. Have you read this website?

There was an interesting book review of this on the

12-step-questioners site that expressed my viewpoint well. Pete?

May 3, 2001

> Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of

> Schaler but didn't know he had written any books (that's being a

little

> generous, I think, but I don't know what else to call it) until I

saw it in

> the bookstore last week and bought it. I'm not normally a literary

critic but

> next to the Hazelden propaganda this is probably the worst book

written on

> addictions I've ever read.

Hi Nick,

When I read that one, it was the ONLY non-AA viewpoint that I'd ever

read--so it holds a bit of a fond place in my heart. That said, I

agree, it is a terrible book, but at least he had SOME sort of an

editor. Have you read this website?

There was an interesting book review of this on the

12-step-questioners site that expressed my viewpoint well. Pete?

May 3, 2001

> Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of

> Schaler but didn't know he had written any books (that's being a

little

> generous, I think, but I don't know what else to call it) until I

saw it in

> the bookstore last week and bought it. I'm not normally a literary

critic but

> next to the Hazelden propaganda this is probably the worst book

written on

> addictions I've ever read.

Hi Nick,

When I read that one, it was the ONLY non-AA viewpoint that I'd ever

read--so it holds a bit of a fond place in my heart. That said, I

agree, it is a terrible book, but at least he had SOME sort of an

editor. Have you read this website?

There was an interesting book review of this on the

12-step-questioners site that expressed my viewpoint well. Pete?

May 4, 2001

Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of Schaler but didn't know he had written any books

I have read a few of his articles, including one in which he advocated that Audrey Kishline should be given an opportunity to kill herself. That was about all I needed to know of him to decide his views were of limited interest to me. Being anti-AA is not at all sufficient to being possessed of common sense and human decency.

--Mona--

May 4, 2001

Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of Schaler but didn't know he had written any books

I have read a few of his articles, including one in which he advocated that Audrey Kishline should be given an opportunity to kill herself. That was about all I needed to know of him to decide his views were of limited interest to me. Being anti-AA is not at all sufficient to being possessed of common sense and human decency.

--Mona--

May 4, 2001

Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of Schaler but didn't know he had written any books

I have read a few of his articles, including one in which he advocated that Audrey Kishline should be given an opportunity to kill herself. That was about all I needed to know of him to decide his views were of limited interest to me. Being anti-AA is not at all sufficient to being possessed of common sense and human decency.

--Mona--

May 5, 2001

Im sure Audrey Kishline felt like killing herself many times , What happened

was terrible but I have a degree of sympathy with her .

There are people who for whatever reason dont seem to be able to conquer

their addictions, at one time I thought I was going to be one of them .

May 5, 2001

Im sure Audrey Kishline felt like killing herself many times , What happened

was terrible but I have a degree of sympathy with her .

There are people who for whatever reason dont seem to be able to conquer

their addictions, at one time I thought I was going to be one of them .

May 5, 2001

Im sure Audrey Kishline felt like killing herself many times , What happened

was terrible but I have a degree of sympathy with her .

There are people who for whatever reason dont seem to be able to conquer

their addictions, at one time I thought I was going to be one of them .

May 5, 2001

ny-come-lately here. Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she? For

that matter I'd never heard of Schaler either. I searched via

Google.com and found his website but didn't have a great deal of time to

read the things that were there.

Cheers,

nz

May 5, 2001

ny-come-lately here. Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she? For

that matter I'd never heard of Schaler either. I searched via

Google.com and found his website but didn't have a great deal of time to

read the things that were there.

Cheers,

nz

May 5, 2001

ny-come-lately here. Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she? For

that matter I'd never heard of Schaler either. I searched via

Google.com and found his website but didn't have a great deal of time to

read the things that were there.

Cheers,

nz

May 5, 2001

Audrey Kishline was wrong to get into her car .

When I was at my worst , I got into my car after a whole bottle of gin in 12

hours .

I drove very slowly , only to go round the corner to get another bottle ,

along quite streets .

it was getting near to closing time and I was desperate .

I got my first and only DUI . I was mortified because I am not normally a

person that breaks the law or does dangerous things .

That DUI got me sober . I was bonkers , the drink took away my better

judgement , leaving me to do things which rationally were completely wrong .

I just thank god i didnt kill or injure someone, but that was only luck .

I thnk the Kishline thing drew more controversy than I have ever seen on the

lists .

It was so much worse because she courted so much publicity for Moderation

Management, and even the gurus have feet of clay !

May 5, 2001

Audrey Kishline was wrong to get into her car .

When I was at my worst , I got into my car after a whole bottle of gin in 12

hours .

I drove very slowly , only to go round the corner to get another bottle ,

along quite streets .

it was getting near to closing time and I was desperate .

I got my first and only DUI . I was mortified because I am not normally a

person that breaks the law or does dangerous things .

That DUI got me sober . I was bonkers , the drink took away my better

judgement , leaving me to do things which rationally were completely wrong .

I just thank god i didnt kill or injure someone, but that was only luck .

I thnk the Kishline thing drew more controversy than I have ever seen on the

lists .

It was so much worse because she courted so much publicity for Moderation

Management, and even the gurus have feet of clay !

May 5, 2001

Audrey Kishline was wrong to get into her car .

When I was at my worst , I got into my car after a whole bottle of gin in 12

hours .

I drove very slowly , only to go round the corner to get another bottle ,

along quite streets .

it was getting near to closing time and I was desperate .

I got my first and only DUI . I was mortified because I am not normally a

person that breaks the law or does dangerous things .

That DUI got me sober . I was bonkers , the drink took away my better

judgement , leaving me to do things which rationally were completely wrong .

I just thank god i didnt kill or injure someone, but that was only luck .

I thnk the Kishline thing drew more controversy than I have ever seen on the

lists .

It was so much worse because she courted so much publicity for Moderation

Management, and even the gurus have feet of clay !

May 5, 2001

At 06:36 AM 5/5/01 -0400, wrote:

>ny-come-lately here. Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she?

Let's see if I can synopsize:

She started Moderation Management about five (six) years ago, wrote

the book by that name describing the movement, been on radio and TV

interviews promoting it as an alternative for 'problem drinkers', while

saying that 'true alcoholics' need to go to AA.

[My opinion/observation: most AA folk regard 'problem drinkers' as

people who haven't been to enough AA meetings yet - they're just 'true

alcoholics' in denial.]

This sounds ordinary, but the story gets dramatic and tragic:

Around the end of 2000 Audrey announce she was going to go abstinent,

and attend (if I remember) both Women For Sobriety and AA meetings. A

few months later (March 2001, as I recall), she was driving drunk and

had an accident which caused the death of someone in another vehicle.

I also recall this story (that the founder of MM killed someone in

a drunk driving accident) didn't make the news, and this list, until

several months later. And when it did, most everyone (both in this

list and in general) had an opinion on it. I know there was something

about it on <http://www.peele.net>, probably with links to news stories.

>For

>that matter I'd never heard of Schaler either. I searched via

>Google.com and found his website but didn't have a great deal of time to

>read the things that were there.

Strangely enough, I have both Schaler's and Kishline's books, but haven't

read more than a cursory scanning of either. But they're part of my

'personal library' on 'the recovery movement'.

>

>Cheers,

>

>nz

>

May 5, 2001