Re: I've mastered moderate alcohol use/vs.helplessness

[Guest guest]

> the epidemiology is actually

> very clear that *moderate* use of alcohol is very good for one's

> health...

and

> although moderate cannabis use probably isnt harmful either except

> perhaps to the lungs...

Both alcohol and pot harm the human mind and body. In small amounts

they produce small but cumulative damage. Long-term use could result

in permanent damage. Neither is necessary for a healthy human life.

The most rational approach would be to discard these and other body

toxins.

But this does not mean that government should prevent the use of pot

or any other mind-disorienting drug. The only proper role of

government is to protect citizens from the use of initiatory force,

coercive threats, and fraud.

Hunter

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

[snip]

>

> Both alcohol and pot harm the human mind and body. In small amounts

> they produce small but cumulative damage. Long-term use could result

> in permanent damage. Neither is necessary for a healthy human life.

> The most rational approach would be to discard these and other body

> toxins.

[snip]

Didn't Ayn Rand smoke cigarettes, though? I seem to recall some passage in

The Fountainhead (not too clearly, since it was 35 years ago that I read the

thing) where she goes on at some length about the wonderfulness of

cigarettes, how they help one to focus one's rational mind, how the glowing

ember of the burning tip symbolizes the Individual alone in the infinite

abyss of dark Otherness, how cigarettes and alcohol produce Pleasure and

anybody who disapproves of them ain't nothin but a no-good looter or

second-hander or something...

And besides, virtually anything one does with the human body produces " small

but cumulative " damage to one system or another. We have organs (e. g. liver

& kidneys) that function to process and filter toxic substances. If a

rational approach to life as a creature on Planet Earth were the complete

avoidance of activities and substances that cause some degree of bodily

damage, then surely we would have evolved differently. Everything is a

trade-off. Alcohol, consumed in reasonable quantities, might turn out to

directly whack a few brain & liver cells while promoting efficient digestion

and relieving emotional stress in such a manner as to indirectly prevent the

demolition of other brain & liver cells, for a net beneficial effect.

Besides, " effect on the body " is not the single rational measure of value.

Who's to say how many units of pleasure, relaxation, enhanced perception and

creativity equate to how many neurons?

--wally

[Guest guest]

Alcohol, consumed in reasonable quantities, might turn

out to

> directly whack a few brain & liver cells while promoting efficient

digestion

> and relieving emotional stress in such a manner as to indirectly

prevent the

> demolition of other brain & liver cells, for a net beneficial

effect.

Hi Wally

As I said before the epidemiology is quite clear that moderate alcohol

use is good for you. I've never heard of any suggestion of a

discernable effect on the brain except for chronic alcoholics. Even

then indirect factors like Vitamin B deficiency may be the chief

culprits, and that kind of alcohol use is a bad idea for the impact on

other organs is any case.

P.

[Guest guest]

Alcohol, consumed in reasonable quantities, might turn

out to

> directly whack a few brain & liver cells while promoting efficient

digestion

> and relieving emotional stress in such a manner as to indirectly

prevent the

> demolition of other brain & liver cells, for a net beneficial

effect.

Hi Wally

As I said before the epidemiology is quite clear that moderate alcohol

use is good for you. I've never heard of any suggestion of a

discernable effect on the brain except for chronic alcoholics. Even

then indirect factors like Vitamin B deficiency may be the chief

culprits, and that kind of alcohol use is a bad idea for the impact on

other organs is any case.

P.

[Guest guest]

Alcohol, consumed in reasonable quantities, might turn

out to

> directly whack a few brain & liver cells while promoting efficient

digestion

> and relieving emotional stress in such a manner as to indirectly

prevent the

> demolition of other brain & liver cells, for a net beneficial

effect.

Hi Wally

As I said before the epidemiology is quite clear that moderate alcohol

use is good for you. I've never heard of any suggestion of a

discernable effect on the brain except for chronic alcoholics. Even

then indirect factors like Vitamin B deficiency may be the chief

culprits, and that kind of alcohol use is a bad idea for the impact on

other organs is any case.

P.

[Guest guest]

> Didn't Ayn Rand smoke cigarettes, though? I seem to recall some

passage in

> The Fountainhead (not too clearly, since it was 35 years ago that I

read the

> thing) where she goes on at some length about the wonderfulness of

> cigarettes...

As I stated in a previous post, Rand had her personal faults. She

held that it was anti-life *not* to smoke. But that was her personal

view -- not part of her Objectivist philosophy.

> And besides, virtually anything one does with the human body

produces " small

> but cumulative " damage to one system or another.

Even if this was true, we still do not need cigarettes, caffeine,

alcohol, pot, cocaine, acid, and heroin to live happily or

successfully. These toxins hinder our survival mechanism: the

conscious mind.

> Besides, " effect on the body " is not the single rational measure of

value.

Alcohol & drugs have a negative effect on both the mind & body. If a

person values his or her life, then alcohol & drugs are a disvalue.

Hunter

http://www.localgroup.net

[Guest guest]

> Didn't Ayn Rand smoke cigarettes, though? I seem to recall some

passage in

> The Fountainhead (not too clearly, since it was 35 years ago that I

read the

> thing) where she goes on at some length about the wonderfulness of

> cigarettes...

As I stated in a previous post, Rand had her personal faults. She

held that it was anti-life *not* to smoke. But that was her personal

view -- not part of her Objectivist philosophy.

> And besides, virtually anything one does with the human body

produces " small

> but cumulative " damage to one system or another.

Even if this was true, we still do not need cigarettes, caffeine,

alcohol, pot, cocaine, acid, and heroin to live happily or

successfully. These toxins hinder our survival mechanism: the

conscious mind.

> Besides, " effect on the body " is not the single rational measure of

value.

Alcohol & drugs have a negative effect on both the mind & body. If a

person values his or her life, then alcohol & drugs are a disvalue.

Hunter

http://www.localgroup.net

[Guest guest]

> Didn't Ayn Rand smoke cigarettes, though? I seem to recall some

passage in

> The Fountainhead (not too clearly, since it was 35 years ago that I

read the

> thing) where she goes on at some length about the wonderfulness of

> cigarettes...

As I stated in a previous post, Rand had her personal faults. She

held that it was anti-life *not* to smoke. But that was her personal

view -- not part of her Objectivist philosophy.

> And besides, virtually anything one does with the human body

produces " small

> but cumulative " damage to one system or another.

Even if this was true, we still do not need cigarettes, caffeine,

alcohol, pot, cocaine, acid, and heroin to live happily or

successfully. These toxins hinder our survival mechanism: the

conscious mind.

> Besides, " effect on the body " is not the single rational measure of

value.

Alcohol & drugs have a negative effect on both the mind & body. If a

person values his or her life, then alcohol & drugs are a disvalue.

Hunter

http://www.localgroup.net

[Guest guest]

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " Hunter " <egroups@l...>

>

> [snip]

> >

> > Both alcohol and pot harm the human mind and body. In small

amounts

> > they produce small but cumulative damage. Long-term use could

result

> > in permanent damage. Neither is necessary for a healthy human

life.

> > The most rational approach would be to discard these and other

body

> > toxins.

> [snip]

>

> Didn't Ayn Rand smoke cigarettes, though? I seem to recall some

passage in

> The Fountainhead (not too clearly, since it was 35 years ago that I

read the

> thing) where she goes on at some length about the wonderfulness of

> cigarettes, how they help one to focus one's rational mind, how the

glowing

> ember of the burning tip symbolizes the Individual alone in the

infinite

> abyss of dark Otherness, how cigarettes and alcohol produce

Pleasure and

> anybody who disapproves of them ain't nothin but a no-good looter or

> second-hander or something...

<laughs> Yes--only it was in " Atlas Shrugged. "

Ayn Rand smoked like a big dog. She died of lung cancer in 1982.

[Guest guest]

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " Hunter " <egroups@l...>

>

> [snip]

> >

> > Both alcohol and pot harm the human mind and body. In small

amounts

> > they produce small but cumulative damage. Long-term use could

result

> > in permanent damage. Neither is necessary for a healthy human

life.

> > The most rational approach would be to discard these and other

body

> > toxins.

> [snip]

>

> Didn't Ayn Rand smoke cigarettes, though? I seem to recall some

passage in

> The Fountainhead (not too clearly, since it was 35 years ago that I

read the

> thing) where she goes on at some length about the wonderfulness of

> cigarettes, how they help one to focus one's rational mind, how the

glowing

> ember of the burning tip symbolizes the Individual alone in the

infinite

> abyss of dark Otherness, how cigarettes and alcohol produce

Pleasure and

> anybody who disapproves of them ain't nothin but a no-good looter or

> second-hander or something...

<laughs> Yes--only it was in " Atlas Shrugged. "

Ayn Rand smoked like a big dog. She died of lung cancer in 1982.

[Guest guest]

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " Hunter " <egroups@l...>

>

> [snip]

> >

> > Both alcohol and pot harm the human mind and body. In small

amounts

> > they produce small but cumulative damage. Long-term use could

result

> > in permanent damage. Neither is necessary for a healthy human

life.

> > The most rational approach would be to discard these and other

body

> > toxins.

> [snip]

>

> Didn't Ayn Rand smoke cigarettes, though? I seem to recall some

passage in

> The Fountainhead (not too clearly, since it was 35 years ago that I

read the

> thing) where she goes on at some length about the wonderfulness of

> cigarettes, how they help one to focus one's rational mind, how the

glowing

> ember of the burning tip symbolizes the Individual alone in the

infinite

> abyss of dark Otherness, how cigarettes and alcohol produce

Pleasure and

> anybody who disapproves of them ain't nothin but a no-good looter or

> second-hander or something...

<laughs> Yes--only it was in " Atlas Shrugged. "

Ayn Rand smoked like a big dog. She died of lung cancer in 1982.

[Guest guest]

--- In 12-step-freeegroups, " Baby Strange " <babystrange@e...>

My God,

I wish I'd known this when my sponsor was rabbiting on about her so

much! Just shows what a dork she was. Reminds me also of her

religious opposite, M Peck, who wrote about " delayal of

gratification " and couldnt stop smoking either. IIRC He also hints at

drinking too much.

P.

> > Didn't Ayn Rand smoke cigarettes, though? I seem to recall some

> passage in

> > The Fountainhead (not too clearly, since it was 35 years ago that

I

> read the

> > thing) where she goes on at some length about the wonderfulness of

> > cigarettes, how they help one to focus one's rational mind, how

the

> glowing

> > ember of the burning tip symbolizes the Individual alone in the

> infinite

> > abyss of dark Otherness, how cigarettes and alcohol produce

> Pleasure and

> > anybody who disapproves of them ain't nothin but a no-good looter

or

> > second-hander or something...

>

> <laughs> Yes--only it was in " Atlas Shrugged. "

>

> Ayn Rand smoked like a big dog. She died of lung cancer in 1982.

[Guest guest]

Hunter wrote:

>

<---snip--->

> > And besides, virtually anything one does with the human body

> produces " small

> > but cumulative " damage to one system or another.

>

> Even if this was true, we still do not need cigarettes, caffeine,

> alcohol, pot, cocaine, acid, and heroin to live happily or

> successfully. These toxins hinder our survival mechanism: the

> conscious mind.

Hunter,

You are absolutely correct there. These drugs have us throwing out

Constitutional protections, shooting each other, financing foreign wars

against poor farmers, providing billions to organized crime and

corrupting law enforcement. And this the effects from only the subgroup

of those who _don't_ take them.

> > Besides, " effect on the body " is not the single rational measure of

> value.

>

> Alcohol & drugs have a negative effect on both the mind & body. If a

> person values his or her life, then alcohol & drugs are a disvalue.

What ever happened to " the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of

happiness " ? I have no problem with anyone choosing not to smoke

cigarettes, pot or opiates, drink coffee or beer, snort cocaine or take

hallucinogens. As a matter of fact, most people when they decide to do

so are obviously making the right decision for themselves.

I never cease to be appalled by the arrogance of some people who know

what is good for everybody else, what everyone else needs and everyone

else doesn't need.

Ken Ragge

P.S. What about red meat?

> Hunter

> http://www.localgroup.net

[Guest guest]

What about whoopie cushions? Aren't they also dangerous?

[Guest guest]

The lady to heads MM Moderate Management also thought she mastered moderate

drinking, but look what happened.

sparkydawg69@... wrote:

What about

whoopie cushions? Aren't they also dangerous?

[Guest guest]

The lady to heads MM Moderate Management also thought she mastered moderate

drinking, but look what happened.

sparkydawg69@... wrote:

What about

whoopie cushions? Aren't they also dangerous?

[Guest guest]

The lady to heads MM Moderate Management also thought she mastered moderate

drinking, but look what happened.

sparkydawg69@... wrote:

What about

whoopie cushions? Aren't they also dangerous?

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>

> The lady to heads MM Moderate Management also thought she mastered

> moderate drinking, but look what happened.

>

,

What would you think of someone who suggested to someone who believed

they were doing well abstaining that they would inevitably drink? Do

you think _that_ would help anyone? What is wrong with you that you

have to tear down someone's efforts, work to destroy their

self-confidence, try to place images of failure in their heads? What in

the world motivates you to try to sabotague other peoples' efforts?

And Audrey Kishline, founder of Moderation Management, also thought she

could abstain so she left MM and joined AA a few months before the

accident. Might she (and the family she killed) have been better off if

she had never tried abstinence? Probably.

Of course, that doesn't make either goal, moderation or abstinence, the

right goal for everyone or for anyone in particular. But sabotaguing

others' efforts for either goal is just plain malicious and won't be

tolerated on this list.

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>

> The lady to heads MM Moderate Management also thought she mastered

> moderate drinking, but look what happened.

>

,

What would you think of someone who suggested to someone who believed

they were doing well abstaining that they would inevitably drink? Do

you think _that_ would help anyone? What is wrong with you that you

have to tear down someone's efforts, work to destroy their

self-confidence, try to place images of failure in their heads? What in

the world motivates you to try to sabotague other peoples' efforts?

And Audrey Kishline, founder of Moderation Management, also thought she

could abstain so she left MM and joined AA a few months before the

accident. Might she (and the family she killed) have been better off if

she had never tried abstinence? Probably.

Of course, that doesn't make either goal, moderation or abstinence, the

right goal for everyone or for anyone in particular. But sabotaguing

others' efforts for either goal is just plain malicious and won't be

tolerated on this list.

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>

> The lady to heads MM Moderate Management also thought she mastered

> moderate drinking, but look what happened.

>

,

What would you think of someone who suggested to someone who believed

they were doing well abstaining that they would inevitably drink? Do

you think _that_ would help anyone? What is wrong with you that you

have to tear down someone's efforts, work to destroy their

self-confidence, try to place images of failure in their heads? What in

the world motivates you to try to sabotague other peoples' efforts?

And Audrey Kishline, founder of Moderation Management, also thought she

could abstain so she left MM and joined AA a few months before the

accident. Might she (and the family she killed) have been better off if

she had never tried abstinence? Probably.

Of course, that doesn't make either goal, moderation or abstinence, the

right goal for everyone or for anyone in particular. But sabotaguing

others' efforts for either goal is just plain malicious and won't be

tolerated on this list.

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

you mean she killed 2 people within 3 months of rejoining aa,

being told she was powerless, and that if she didnt abstain she

would a fail? guess absitence kills? or is it just aa's way of

teaching it?

maybe is she was offered some practical tools for living life

sober, rather than relgious conversion, something other than

prayer, turning her will over to her " Living Creator " , calling a

sponsor or reading the blathering of bill wilson, she may have

abstained successfully. we will never know.

ethier way she is ultimatly repsonsiable for her choice to join AA,

the drinking and the deaths she caused did while practicing aa

mind fuck program.

nor does her mishap have any releavnce for those who

moderate and live productive lies, becuase she was trying to

abstain! and she was taught if she drank she would lose control,

and guess what, she did what she was taught to do.

>

> > What about whoopie cushions? Aren't they also dangerous?

> >

[Guest guest]

you mean she killed 2 people within 3 months of rejoining aa,

being told she was powerless, and that if she didnt abstain she

would a fail? guess absitence kills? or is it just aa's way of

teaching it?

maybe is she was offered some practical tools for living life

sober, rather than relgious conversion, something other than

prayer, turning her will over to her " Living Creator " , calling a

sponsor or reading the blathering of bill wilson, she may have

abstained successfully. we will never know.

ethier way she is ultimatly repsonsiable for her choice to join AA,

the drinking and the deaths she caused did while practicing aa

mind fuck program.

nor does her mishap have any releavnce for those who

moderate and live productive lies, becuase she was trying to

abstain! and she was taught if she drank she would lose control,

and guess what, she did what she was taught to do.

>

> > What about whoopie cushions? Aren't they also dangerous?

> >

[Guest guest]

you mean she killed 2 people within 3 months of rejoining aa,

being told she was powerless, and that if she didnt abstain she

would a fail? guess absitence kills? or is it just aa's way of

teaching it?

maybe is she was offered some practical tools for living life

sober, rather than relgious conversion, something other than

prayer, turning her will over to her " Living Creator " , calling a

sponsor or reading the blathering of bill wilson, she may have

abstained successfully. we will never know.

ethier way she is ultimatly repsonsiable for her choice to join AA,

the drinking and the deaths she caused did while practicing aa

mind fuck program.

nor does her mishap have any releavnce for those who

moderate and live productive lies, becuase she was trying to

abstain! and she was taught if she drank she would lose control,

and guess what, she did what she was taught to do.

>

> > What about whoopie cushions? Aren't they also dangerous?

> >

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: I've mastered moderate alcohol

use/vs.helplessness

> And Audrey Kishline, founder of Moderation Management, also thought she

> could abstain so she left MM and joined AA a few months before the

> accident. Might she (and the family she killed) have been better off if

> she had never tried abstinence? Probably.

>

> Ken Ragge

>

>

>

Is it unrealistic for a person to believe they can abstain?

What does it mean to " try abstinence " ? Doesn't that depend on the degree of

conditionality? I will abstain IF x,y,z,... .

AA abstinence can only be " tried " . It can never be " achieved " . In fact

there are so many absurd conditions it could be considered a form of

moderation. Step 3, and 4. Step 8, 9. Do step 10. Do it again. Step 11

never ends, nor does step 12. OH $#!% !!!! THIS IS A BUNCH OF CRAP! LET

ME OUTTA HERE!! AAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!

What about unconditional abstinence? Is that something that can be " tried " ?

How many times can a person make a commitment to unconditional abstinence?

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: I've mastered moderate alcohol

use/vs.helplessness

> And Audrey Kishline, founder of Moderation Management, also thought she

> could abstain so she left MM and joined AA a few months before the

> accident. Might she (and the family she killed) have been better off if

> she had never tried abstinence? Probably.

>

> Ken Ragge

>

>

>

Is it unrealistic for a person to believe they can abstain?

What does it mean to " try abstinence " ? Doesn't that depend on the degree of

conditionality? I will abstain IF x,y,z,... .

AA abstinence can only be " tried " . It can never be " achieved " . In fact

there are so many absurd conditions it could be considered a form of

moderation. Step 3, and 4. Step 8, 9. Do step 10. Do it again. Step 11

never ends, nor does step 12. OH $#!% !!!! THIS IS A BUNCH OF CRAP! LET

ME OUTTA HERE!! AAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!

What about unconditional abstinence? Is that something that can be " tried " ?

How many times can a person make a commitment to unconditional abstinence?

Dave Trippel