Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey

[Guest guest]

> ~

>

>

> I would have to disagree with your analysis of Trimpey. He is very

hard to

> get along with and too autocratic in dealing with people who were

> facilitators in RR.

>

> It matters not I suppose, but I wouldn't invest time in becoming

part of the

> RR " family " .

>

> Piper

I was a facilitator of RR meetings for 4 years. I never felt any

pressure to run meeting any way, but the way I saw fit.

I didn't know that there was a RR faimly to join.

[Guest guest]

> ~

>

>

> I would have to disagree with your analysis of Trimpey. He is very

hard to

> get along with and too autocratic in dealing with people who were

> facilitators in RR.

>

> It matters not I suppose, but I wouldn't invest time in becoming

part of the

> RR " family " .

>

> Piper

I was a facilitator of RR meetings for 4 years. I never felt any

pressure to run meeting any way, but the way I saw fit.

I didn't know that there was a RR faimly to join.

[Guest guest]

>Yes, please

cut short

> the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism)

and

> folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You

are

> preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper.

Trimpey and my Step Nazi rehab running ex-sponsor would probably get

along famously politically. How funny that their similar

authoritarianism should maker them adopt such apparently contrary

positions. In reality supposedly impacable enemies often resembel each

other, and this is no exception.

P.

[Guest guest]

>Yes, please

cut short

> the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism)

and

> folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You

are

> preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper.

Trimpey and my Step Nazi rehab running ex-sponsor would probably get

along famously politically. How funny that their similar

authoritarianism should maker them adopt such apparently contrary

positions. In reality supposedly impacable enemies often resembel each

other, and this is no exception.

P.

[Guest guest]

>Yes, please

cut short

> the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism)

and

> folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You

are

> preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper.

Trimpey and my Step Nazi rehab running ex-sponsor would probably get

along famously politically. How funny that their similar

authoritarianism should maker them adopt such apparently contrary

positions. In reality supposedly impacable enemies often resembel each

other, and this is no exception.

P.

[Guest guest]

If people wonder if speaking out against XA is useless, it was Kack

Trimpey's web site that planted the seed that XA was full of myth,

superstitution and downright lies. (Others here would say I'm being kind

with these words). The seed was planted that XA doctrine contained no

absolute truths about addiction and that in fact much of it is harmful to

capable individuals looking to solve their addiction problems.

He is human though and his message that his AVRT/Beast method is the only

way (He told me that in a personal e-mail) to beat addiction doesn't help

me. However, I can take his method or leave it.

Chris

[Guest guest]

If people wonder if speaking out against XA is useless, it was Kack

Trimpey's web site that planted the seed that XA was full of myth,

superstitution and downright lies. (Others here would say I'm being kind

with these words). The seed was planted that XA doctrine contained no

absolute truths about addiction and that in fact much of it is harmful to

capable individuals looking to solve their addiction problems.

He is human though and his message that his AVRT/Beast method is the only

way (He told me that in a personal e-mail) to beat addiction doesn't help

me. However, I can take his method or leave it.

Chris

[Guest guest]

i too give trimpley credit for being vocal, if nothing else he has

drawn attention to AA dark side. and although i never used rr , the

things he says about beast and internal dialouge make some

sense and were similar to techniques i discovered on my own

when i quit.

i do hate that term, " beast " however, every time i read rr stuff and

see it, i cringe, its a silly metaphor which comes across as

superstious anything aa says, regardless of what it is refering

too. that alone probably keeps treatment profsionals from taking

it seriously, although it is far less comical than a faith healing

HP.

> If people wonder if speaking out against XA is useless, it was

Kack

> Trimpey's web site that planted the seed that XA was full of

myth,

> superstitution and downright lies. (Others here would say I'm

being kind

> with these words). The seed was planted that XA doctrine

contained no

> absolute truths about addiction and that in fact much of it is

harmful to

> capable individuals looking to solve their addiction problems.

>

> He is human though and his message that his AVRT/Beast

method is the only

> way (He told me that in a personal e-mail) to beat addiction

doesn't help

> me. However, I can take his method or leave it.

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

Barker wrote:

> If people wonder if speaking out against XA is useless, it was Jack

> Trimpey's web site that planted the seed that XA was full of myth,

> superstitution and downright lies.

Are you saying that Trimpey's web site is where you first encountered the

above ideas? Or are you saying that is where all criticism of the 12 step

movement originally germinated? While I applaud Trimpey's pioneering work in

demystifying the 12 step faith healing movement, I can't agree that he planted

THE seed with his web site. Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques

of aa decades earlier.

Peace,

[Guest guest]

can you tell me more about ellis's critique and where i may find

it?

Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques

> of aa decades earlier.

>

> Peace,

>

[Guest guest]

can you tell me more about ellis's critique and where i may find

it?

Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques

> of aa decades earlier.

>

> Peace,

>

[Guest guest]

can you tell me more about ellis's critique and where i may find

it?

Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques

> of aa decades earlier.

>

> Peace,

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I don't know if anyone hit on this yet but JT took the cognitive therapy

aspects out of AVRT because the Beast uses and Mine did for sure the

cognitive ascpects to justify going back to getting high. So the autocratic

approcah is black and white, perfectionistic the way a chess game is or a

crossword puzzle and the decision is not contingent on anything period.

Do you see the difference? Putting any idea like " I shouldn't be a

perfectionist about quitting. Afterall, no one is perfect. " just leaves the

door open wide and happily to have another round of drinks. When it is over

it is over no matter what comes your way.

Carol

12-step-freeegroups wrote:

>

> In a message dated 1/7/01 5:27:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> njacobs@... writes:

>

> << My question is:  What about Jack Trimpey?  From what I've read he's kind

> of difficult to get along with.  A person can tell from his site

> www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I

can

> see how his jihad would turn some people off.  I think this was part of the

> reason behind his split with SMART Recovery.

>  

>  What do you know out there? >>

>

>

> Nate~

>

> Yes, Trimpey is very difficult to get along with.  Something happened along

> the way in establishing RR.  My feeling was that he wanted to make a lot of

> money from RR in starting AVRT " treatment " groups in centers of some kind.  

> He didn't seem to play well with others.  He was to autocratic in his

> dealings with those running RR groups in various parts of California and I

> assume other places.  His writing began to take on political overetones of

> survivalist politics, which seemed pretty screwy to me.  People running RR

> groups were usually very competent and creative thinkers.  He made it

> impossible to stay with RR with all of HIS rules and conditions for being

RR

> facilitators.

>

> His basic writings, which are based almost soley on Albert Ellis's Rational

> Emotive Behavioral Therapy concepts, are good concepts.  As a self-help

> movement RR just didn't make it and there was a split from RR to Smart

> Recovery for many people.

>

> There is more if you are interested, but that is my basic take on the

Trimpey

> saga.

> Piper.

>

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[Guest guest]

Sme with me . No pressure to run it any way at all or at all. You could

run the " Final Fix " tapes, make your own posters, discuss, take parts of the

book, but JT did say if you have fun with it you are doing it right. I never

had any interference and yeah there's no family. There is an international

network but then you guys are one already.

Take care,

Don't be so serious. JT hasn't lost his sense of humor. The book was funny

too.

HT also has a terrific sense of humor which for those who remember reading

the Book " Rational Recovery: The New Cure " will recall laughing out loud.

Cheers,

Carol

12-step-freeegroups wrote:

>

>

> > ~

> >

> >

> > I would have to disagree with your analysis of Trimpey.  He is very

> hard to

> > get along with and too autocratic in dealing with people who were

> > facilitators in RR.

> >

> > It matters not I suppose, but I wouldn't invest time in becoming

> part of the

> > RR " family " .

> >

> > Piper

>

>

> I was a facilitator of RR meetings for 4 years. I never felt any

> pressure to run meeting any way, but the way I saw fit.

>

> I didn't know that there was a RR faimly to join.

>

>

>

__________________________________________________________________

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at

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[Guest guest]

Yes, they are wonderful people. Jack gave me total hope when I spoke to him

the first time and his words keep unfolding for me. A terrific, generous (his

whole education is on the net for free) and Lois is soft and compassionate

with a strong belief in the abilities of people to manage their lives without

interference. Horray for us to have them.

Carol

12-step-freeegroups wrote:

>

> Nate: I have met Jack, I have been to his house (for the yearly beast

party) and I can say I have never meet two more caring people than Jack and

his wife Lois.

> While Jack has very strong beliefs about addiction, I don't think that he

is hard to get along with.

> His disdain for AA comes from in part hearing the horror stories from the

hundreds of people who call RR every week.

>

> You have it backward, Smart split from RR after they unsuccessfully tried

to get control of his trademarked material.

> If you have any questions you can e-mail jack he is very good about

replying to his mail.

>

__________________________________________________________________

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at

http://webmail.netscape.com/

[Guest guest]

What I wrote has to do with me personally. It was the first time I had

read anything against AA,

CB

Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey

> Barker wrote:

>

> > If people wonder if speaking out against XA is useless, it was Jack

> > Trimpey's web site that planted the seed that XA was full of myth,

> > superstitution and downright lies.

>

> Are you saying that Trimpey's web site is where you first encountered

the

> above ideas? Or are you saying that is where all criticism of the 12 step

> movement originally germinated? While I applaud Trimpey's pioneering work

in

> demystifying the 12 step faith healing movement, I can't agree that he

planted

> THE seed with his web site. Albert Ellis and others were publishing

critiques

> of aa decades earlier.

>

> Peace,

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques

> > of aa decades earlier.

> >

> > Peace,

> >

[Guest guest]

> Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques

> > of aa decades earlier.

> >

> > Peace,

> >

[Guest guest]

> Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques

> > of aa decades earlier.

> >

> > Peace,

> >

[Guest guest]

At 12:58 AM 1/10/01 -0000, Railroad Rita wrote:

>

>

>> can you tell me more about ellis's critique and where i may find

>> it?

>>

>--------------------

>

> Ellis wrote a book called " When AA Doesn't Work For You: Rational

Steps to Quitting Alcohol " . It wasn't quite the same thing Trimpey had in

mind with AVRT -- it was much more therapy-oriented -- but truly Ellis was

no great fan of AA, particularly regarding the unhealthy " powerlessness "

idea. It's available in paperback from Amazon.com, probably you can get a

cheaper one from that discount bookseller Stuart mentioned a while back,

can't remember the name.

>

>~Rita

There are several used copies listed on bookfinder.com starting at $7.95,

though it shows fatbrain selling it new with a price of $11.95. If you want

to save every penny you can, look at all the cheap sellers and add their

shipping costs to their price to get the total purchase price.

There are some interesting reader reviews at Amazon here:

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520067541>

I recall a while back discussion on the list of the third review, where

the reviewer says his brother quit AA and killed himself while reading

the book.

The most recent review is also interesting in the context of this

thread.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 12:58 AM 1/10/01 -0000, Railroad Rita wrote:

>

>

>> can you tell me more about ellis's critique and where i may find

>> it?

>>

>--------------------

>

> Ellis wrote a book called " When AA Doesn't Work For You: Rational

Steps to Quitting Alcohol " . It wasn't quite the same thing Trimpey had in

mind with AVRT -- it was much more therapy-oriented -- but truly Ellis was

no great fan of AA, particularly regarding the unhealthy " powerlessness "

idea. It's available in paperback from Amazon.com, probably you can get a

cheaper one from that discount bookseller Stuart mentioned a while back,

can't remember the name.

>

>~Rita

There are several used copies listed on bookfinder.com starting at $7.95,

though it shows fatbrain selling it new with a price of $11.95. If you want

to save every penny you can, look at all the cheap sellers and add their

shipping costs to their price to get the total purchase price.

There are some interesting reader reviews at Amazon here:

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520067541>

I recall a while back discussion on the list of the third review, where

the reviewer says his brother quit AA and killed himself while reading

the book.

The most recent review is also interesting in the context of this

thread.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 12:58 AM 1/10/01 -0000, Railroad Rita wrote:

>

>

>> can you tell me more about ellis's critique and where i may find

>> it?

>>

>--------------------

>

> Ellis wrote a book called " When AA Doesn't Work For You: Rational

Steps to Quitting Alcohol " . It wasn't quite the same thing Trimpey had in

mind with AVRT -- it was much more therapy-oriented -- but truly Ellis was

no great fan of AA, particularly regarding the unhealthy " powerlessness "

idea. It's available in paperback from Amazon.com, probably you can get a

cheaper one from that discount bookseller Stuart mentioned a while back,

can't remember the name.

>

>~Rita

There are several used copies listed on bookfinder.com starting at $7.95,

though it shows fatbrain selling it new with a price of $11.95. If you want

to save every penny you can, look at all the cheap sellers and add their

shipping costs to their price to get the total purchase price.

There are some interesting reader reviews at Amazon here:

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520067541>

I recall a while back discussion on the list of the third review, where

the reviewer says his brother quit AA and killed himself while reading

the book.

The most recent review is also interesting in the context of this

thread.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

You know, ever since I first encountered the 'autocratic' version of RR (6

years ago, when I read 'AVRT: The Final Fix') I have considered it flawed.

Decisions (e. g., to quit drinking forever) are either rational or

arbitrary. If rational, they are subject to reconsideration based on new

information, value system changes, personal growth, etc. If arbitrary, then

they can be changed just as arbitrarily as they were made to begin with.

RR(2) seems to place the decision to abstain 'outside the program,' giving

you AVRT -- a method for not drinking which presumes that you have already

decided not to drink. But I've never had a problem not drinking when I

didn't want to (at least not since I managed to shuck the 'powerlessness'

brainwashing...)

Maybe I'm just too rational for Rational Recovery :-)

--wally

----- Original Message -----

> Hi,

> I don't know if anyone hit on this yet but JT took the cognitive therapy

> aspects out of AVRT because the Beast uses and Mine did for sure the

> cognitive ascpects to justify going back to getting high. So the

autocratic

> approcah is black and white, perfectionistic the way a chess game is or a

> crossword puzzle and the decision is not contingent on anything period.

> Do you see the difference? Putting any idea like " I shouldn't be a

> perfectionist about quitting. Afterall, no one is perfect. " just leaves

the

> door open wide and happily to have another round of drinks. When it is

over

> it is over no matter what comes your way.

> Carol

[snip]

[Guest guest]

The earliest RET vs alcohol dependency book intended as a recovery manual

for the drinker was by Maultsby, Maxie C.: A Million Dollars for Your

Hangover: The Illustrated Guide for the New Self-Help Alcoholic Treatment

Method ; Lexington,Kentucky: Rational Self-Help Books, 1978.

Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey

>

> > Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques

> > > of aa decades earlier.

> > >

> > > Peace,

> > >

>

>

> eGroups Sponsor

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Wally

Nice critique of the RR counterpart of AA dogma. If I cant be helped

by a support group to not do something that is 100% in my control, why

should I be helped by AVRT either? I just dont do it, right?

Before you start escribbling Dave T the only thing I want to say to

you is that I failed to mention RR in a recent post simply because I

forgot about it, no other reason. If you were on ADD_MED you would

know that I have I think three times mentioned AVRT and/or RR WITHOUT

EVEN MENTIONING OTHER AA ALTERNIATIVES in my posts. In other words,

AVRT might appear to be *preferred* by me by those who saw only my

posts on *that* list. Before you indulge in your sneering, it might

be a good idea to get your facts straight.

Have the last word if you want but if it's more of your McEnroe

" Waddido, waddidsay? " routine jam it. With regard to the above the

only thing I will read from you is an apology.

> You know, ever since I first encountered the 'autocratic' version of

RR (6

> years ago, when I read 'AVRT: The Final Fix') I have considered it

flawed.

> Decisions (e. g., to quit drinking forever) are either rational or

> arbitrary. If rational, they are subject to reconsideration based on

new

> information, value system changes, personal growth, etc. If

arbitrary, then

> they can be changed just as arbitrarily as they were made to begin

with.

> RR(2) seems to place the decision to abstain 'outside the program,'

giving

> you AVRT -- a method for not drinking which presumes that you have

already

> decided not to drink. But I've never had a problem not drinking when

I

> didn't want to (at least not since I managed to shuck the

'powerlessness'

> brainwashing...)

>

> Maybe I'm just too rational for Rational Recovery :-)

>

> --wally

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: <CarolFrancey@n...>

>

> > Hi,

> > I don't know if anyone hit on this yet but JT took the cognitive

therapy

> > aspects out of AVRT because the Beast uses and Mine did for sure

the

> > cognitive ascpects to justify going back to getting high. So the

> autocratic

> > approcah is black and white, perfectionistic the way a chess game

is or a

> > crossword puzzle and the decision is not contingent on anything

period.

> > Do you see the difference? Putting any idea like " I shouldn't be a

> > perfectionist about quitting. Afterall, no one is perfect. " just

leaves

> the

> > door open wide and happily to have another round of drinks. When

it is

> over

> > it is over no matter what comes your way.

> > Carol

> [snip]