Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey

[Guest guest]

I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism. I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT.

My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery.

What do you know out there?

Nate

[Guest guest]

I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism. I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT.

My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery.

What do you know out there?

Nate

[Guest guest]

I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism. I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT.

My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery.

What do you know out there?

Nate

[Guest guest]

Nate: I have met Jack, I have been to his house (for the yearly beast party) and I can say I have never meet two more caring people than Jack and his wife Lois.

While Jack has very strong beliefs about addiction, I don't think that he is hard to get along with.

His disdain for AA comes from in part hearing the horror stories from the hundreds of people who call RR every week.

You have it backward, Smart split from RR after they unsuccessfully tried to get control of his trademarked material.

If you have any questions you can e-mail jack he is very good about replying to his mail.

[Guest guest]

Nate: I have met Jack, I have been to his house (for the yearly beast party) and I can say I have never meet two more caring people than Jack and his wife Lois.

While Jack has very strong beliefs about addiction, I don't think that he is hard to get along with.

His disdain for AA comes from in part hearing the horror stories from the hundreds of people who call RR every week.

You have it backward, Smart split from RR after they unsuccessfully tried to get control of his trademarked material.

If you have any questions you can e-mail jack he is very good about replying to his mail.

[Guest guest]

Nate: I have met Jack, I have been to his house (for the yearly beast party) and I can say I have never meet two more caring people than Jack and his wife Lois.

While Jack has very strong beliefs about addiction, I don't think that he is hard to get along with.

His disdain for AA comes from in part hearing the horror stories from the hundreds of people who call RR every week.

You have it backward, Smart split from RR after they unsuccessfully tried to get control of his trademarked material.

If you have any questions you can e-mail jack he is very good about replying to his mail.

[Guest guest]

Nate s wrote:

I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely

helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism.

I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking

or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT.

My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what

I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can

tell from his site www.rational.org

that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his

jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of

the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery. What do you know

out there?

Hi Nate and list,

While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses,

to sell it as total solution for addiction as Trimpey seems to is a bit

of an over simplification. In the early period of my abstinence I

would personify my urges to use in order to carry out an internal dialog

with my "addict". While I always knew I was talking to myself I found

this "dialectic in my head" useful in making better decisions about using.

I have some problems with demonizing the "addictive voice" as the "Beast".

Besides being a little oafish, demonizing the subconscious workings of

our minds does not strike me completely healthy. I personally would

have found the principals of AVRT wholly inadequate for changing the things

I had to in order to free myself from the self destructive use of drugs.

While you may have gathered from my other post that

I'm no fan of the 12 step faith healing movement, I find some of Trimpey's

tactics and critiques of XA to be counter productive. I think the

man might have lost sight of one of his original objections, the de facto

monopoly on "treatment" enjoyed by XA. He now promotes, as a for

profit business, AVRT as the only cure for addiction. I believe all

the resources of AVRT and much more are available through SMART at no charge.

(To be fair donations are requested by SMART)

Here is an example of one Trimpey's "tactics" I

find objectionable. The following is a quote taken from the RR web

site.

"I really love the free enterprise system and

the opportunities it makes available to everyone. One of the most common

attacks upon me is that I am a greedy, fat cat exploiting the misery of

others as president of an evil, for-profit corporation. This juvenile criticism

always comes from 12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit

organization it is morally superior to Rational Recovery."

While I have made this basic criticism of RR I am

by no means one of the "12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit

organization it is morally superior to Rational Recovery." And yet,

according to Trimpey, this criticism "always" comes from defenders of the

moral superiority of the 12 step faith healing movement.

On the other hand, Trimpey is undeniably a true

pioneer in the struggle expose the 12 step faith healing movement as the

religious organization it is. I would also accept that AVRT has helped

far more people deal effectively with addictive behavior than XA has or

ever will. For this I believe Trimpey deserves much gratitude and

thanks for his tireless efforts.

Peace,

[Guest guest]

Nate s wrote:

I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely

helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism.

I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking

or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT.

My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what

I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can

tell from his site www.rational.org

that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his

jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of

the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery. What do you know

out there?

Hi Nate and list,

While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses,

to sell it as total solution for addiction as Trimpey seems to is a bit

of an over simplification. In the early period of my abstinence I

would personify my urges to use in order to carry out an internal dialog

with my "addict". While I always knew I was talking to myself I found

this "dialectic in my head" useful in making better decisions about using.

I have some problems with demonizing the "addictive voice" as the "Beast".

Besides being a little oafish, demonizing the subconscious workings of

our minds does not strike me completely healthy. I personally would

have found the principals of AVRT wholly inadequate for changing the things

I had to in order to free myself from the self destructive use of drugs.

While you may have gathered from my other post that

I'm no fan of the 12 step faith healing movement, I find some of Trimpey's

tactics and critiques of XA to be counter productive. I think the

man might have lost sight of one of his original objections, the de facto

monopoly on "treatment" enjoyed by XA. He now promotes, as a for

profit business, AVRT as the only cure for addiction. I believe all

the resources of AVRT and much more are available through SMART at no charge.

(To be fair donations are requested by SMART)

Here is an example of one Trimpey's "tactics" I

find objectionable. The following is a quote taken from the RR web

site.

"I really love the free enterprise system and

the opportunities it makes available to everyone. One of the most common

attacks upon me is that I am a greedy, fat cat exploiting the misery of

others as president of an evil, for-profit corporation. This juvenile criticism

always comes from 12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit

organization it is morally superior to Rational Recovery."

While I have made this basic criticism of RR I am

by no means one of the "12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit

organization it is morally superior to Rational Recovery." And yet,

according to Trimpey, this criticism "always" comes from defenders of the

moral superiority of the 12 step faith healing movement.

On the other hand, Trimpey is undeniably a true

pioneer in the struggle expose the 12 step faith healing movement as the

religious organization it is. I would also accept that AVRT has helped

far more people deal effectively with addictive behavior than XA has or

ever will. For this I believe Trimpey deserves much gratitude and

thanks for his tireless efforts.

Peace,

[Guest guest]

Nate s wrote:

I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely

helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism.

I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking

or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT.

My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what

I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can

tell from his site www.rational.org

that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his

jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of

the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery. What do you know

out there?

Hi Nate and list,

While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses,

to sell it as total solution for addiction as Trimpey seems to is a bit

of an over simplification. In the early period of my abstinence I

would personify my urges to use in order to carry out an internal dialog

with my "addict". While I always knew I was talking to myself I found

this "dialectic in my head" useful in making better decisions about using.

I have some problems with demonizing the "addictive voice" as the "Beast".

Besides being a little oafish, demonizing the subconscious workings of

our minds does not strike me completely healthy. I personally would

have found the principals of AVRT wholly inadequate for changing the things

I had to in order to free myself from the self destructive use of drugs.

While you may have gathered from my other post that

I'm no fan of the 12 step faith healing movement, I find some of Trimpey's

tactics and critiques of XA to be counter productive. I think the

man might have lost sight of one of his original objections, the de facto

monopoly on "treatment" enjoyed by XA. He now promotes, as a for

profit business, AVRT as the only cure for addiction. I believe all

the resources of AVRT and much more are available through SMART at no charge.

(To be fair donations are requested by SMART)

Here is an example of one Trimpey's "tactics" I

find objectionable. The following is a quote taken from the RR web

site.

"I really love the free enterprise system and

the opportunities it makes available to everyone. One of the most common

attacks upon me is that I am a greedy, fat cat exploiting the misery of

others as president of an evil, for-profit corporation. This juvenile criticism

always comes from 12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit

organization it is morally superior to Rational Recovery."

While I have made this basic criticism of RR I am

by no means one of the "12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit

organization it is morally superior to Rational Recovery." And yet,

according to Trimpey, this criticism "always" comes from defenders of the

moral superiority of the 12 step faith healing movement.

On the other hand, Trimpey is undeniably a true

pioneer in the struggle expose the 12 step faith healing movement as the

religious organization it is. I would also accept that AVRT has helped

far more people deal effectively with addictive behavior than XA has or

ever will. For this I believe Trimpey deserves much gratitude and

thanks for his tireless efforts.

Peace,

[Guest guest]

> I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely helpful in

gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism. I recommend

the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit

drinking should learn AVRT.

>

> My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's

kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site

www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book

but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this

was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery.

>

> What do you know out there?

I know Jack and Lois personally, and have met with them for an access

TV show a couple of times and have talked extensively on the phone to

Lois.

Both of them very much care about people with alcohol problems. I

think they've done a terrific service for these people,and for the

cause in general. While some people think they have too much hatred

of AA, others greatly benefit from the deprogramming aspects of the

RR attitude toward recovery groups. I'll never forget the laughs I

got 5 years ago, detoxing after a weeklong drunk and reading the

Small Book.

Everyone of us with whatever attitudes we have toward AA has his/her

place.

[Guest guest]

> I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely helpful in

gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism. I recommend

the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit

drinking should learn AVRT.

>

> My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's

kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site

www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book

but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this

was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery.

>

> What do you know out there?

I know Jack and Lois personally, and have met with them for an access

TV show a couple of times and have talked extensively on the phone to

Lois.

Both of them very much care about people with alcohol problems. I

think they've done a terrific service for these people,and for the

cause in general. While some people think they have too much hatred

of AA, others greatly benefit from the deprogramming aspects of the

RR attitude toward recovery groups. I'll never forget the laughs I

got 5 years ago, detoxing after a weeklong drunk and reading the

Small Book.

Everyone of us with whatever attitudes we have toward AA has his/her

place.

[Guest guest]

Being an anarchist by heart, autocratic systems, like the rehabs I've

worked for, are by nature, in my belief, non healing, non growth, and

except by miracle, non effective except by the leaders definition. And I

would avoid the " family "

like the plague.

Larry

Pipercubxt@... wrote:

>

> ~

>

> I would have to disagree with your analysis of Trimpey. He is very hard to

> get along with and too autocratic in dealing with people who were

> facilitators in RR.

>

> It matters not I suppose, but I wouldn't invest time in becoming part of the

> RR " family " .

>

> Piper

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/7/01 5:27:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,

njacobs@... writes:

<< My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind

of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site

www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can

see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of the

reason behind his split with SMART Recovery.

What do you know out there? >>

Nate~

Yes, Trimpey is very difficult to get along with. Something happened along

the way in establishing RR. My feeling was that he wanted to make a lot of

money from RR in starting AVRT " treatment " groups in centers of some kind.

He didn't seem to play well with others. He was to autocratic in his

dealings with those running RR groups in various parts of California and I

assume other places. His writing began to take on political overetones of

survivalist politics, which seemed pretty screwy to me. People running RR

groups were usually very competent and creative thinkers. He made it

impossible to stay with RR with all of HIS rules and conditions for being RR

facilitators.

His basic writings, which are based almost soley on Albert Ellis's Rational

Emotive Behavioral Therapy concepts, are good concepts. As a self-help

movement RR just didn't make it and there was a split from RR to Smart

Recovery for many people.

There is more if you are interested, but that is my basic take on the Trimpey

saga.

Piper.

[Guest guest]

~

I would have to disagree with your analysis of Trimpey. He is very hard to

get along with and too autocratic in dealing with people who were

facilitators in RR.

It matters not I suppose, but I wouldn't invest time in becoming part of the

RR " family " .

Piper

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/7/01 8:42:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, Stigmata@...

writes:

<< While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses, to sell it as total

solution for addiction as Trimpey seems to is a bit of an over

simplification.

In the early period of my abstinence I would personify my urges to use in

order

to carry out an internal dialog with my " addict " . While I always knew I was

>>

~~

I think this is an excellent analysis of the Trimpey situation. It is not

only 12-steppers who object to the capitalizing on what should be a

profit-free zone of self-help recovery. You don't have to be a moron to

object to profiteering.

Also, Trimpey became extremely anti-intellectual. The AVRT is obviously an

over- simplification of a complex neural process of addiction in the brain.

That it can be a useful SINGLE technique in a larger system is not a problem.

That it should be MARKETED for " treatment centers " doesn't warm the cockles

of my heart. Trimpey used to be fond of ridiculing those with advanced

degrees, who wanted to discuss issues such as these in more detail. It was

usually his way, or the highway.

That Trimpey is a pioneer, too, is not at question, and most are grateful for

what he initiated.

Mixing in politics (survivalist as far as I can tell) with ramblings about

guns and the government, does not seem to embelish his addiction theory.

I say good luck to he and Lois and let the buyer beware.

Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/8/01 1:15:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, kenr1@...

writes:

<< f you have ever spent time on a discussion list where there are those

with advanced degrees, there is quite a bit of reason to ridicule them.

The addictions field is long on folklore and religious zeal, short on

science.

Ken Ragge >>

Umm. The thinkers are the ones who do the science?? Yes, please cut short

the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism) and

folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You are

preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/8/01 1:15:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, kenr1@...

writes:

<< f you have ever spent time on a discussion list where there are those

with advanced degrees, there is quite a bit of reason to ridicule them.

The addictions field is long on folklore and religious zeal, short on

science.

Ken Ragge >>

Umm. The thinkers are the ones who do the science?? Yes, please cut short

the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism) and

folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You are

preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/8/01 1:15:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, kenr1@...

writes:

<< f you have ever spent time on a discussion list where there are those

with advanced degrees, there is quite a bit of reason to ridicule them.

The addictions field is long on folklore and religious zeal, short on

science.

Ken Ragge >>

Umm. The thinkers are the ones who do the science?? Yes, please cut short

the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism) and

folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You are

preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper.

[Guest guest]

Very much so, but whose politics?

I know many highly degreed people that just follow what is politicaly

correct.

12 step programs are very popular and acadamians to get or hold tenur

must please the acadamy and thier constituents. So sometimes the

statistics you get are not the most reliable.

They are the most self advancing to the researcher.

Larry

> Since reliable statistics for meaningful outcomes are so expensive and

> difficult to accumulate, isn't politics an important consideration?

>

> Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

Very much so, but whose politics?

I know many highly degreed people that just follow what is politicaly

correct.

12 step programs are very popular and acadamians to get or hold tenur

must please the acadamy and thier constituents. So sometimes the

statistics you get are not the most reliable.

They are the most self advancing to the researcher.

Larry

> Since reliable statistics for meaningful outcomes are so expensive and

> difficult to accumulate, isn't politics an important consideration?

>

> Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

Very much so, but whose politics?

I know many highly degreed people that just follow what is politicaly

correct.

12 step programs are very popular and acadamians to get or hold tenur

must please the acadamy and thier constituents. So sometimes the

statistics you get are not the most reliable.

They are the most self advancing to the researcher.

Larry

> Since reliable statistics for meaningful outcomes are so expensive and

> difficult to accumulate, isn't politics an important consideration?

>

> Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

Pipercubxt@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 1/7/01 8:42:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, Stigmata@...

> writes:

>

> << While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses, to sell it as total

> solution for addiction as Trimpey seems to is a bit of an over

> simplification.

> In the early period of my abstinence I would personify my urges to use in

> order

> to carry out an internal dialog with my " addict " . While I always knew I was

> >>

>

> ~~

>

> I think this is an excellent analysis of the Trimpey situation. It is not

> only 12-steppers who object to the capitalizing on what should be a

> profit-free zone of self-help recovery. You don't have to be a moron to

> object to profiteering.

,

I find myself in the odd position (for me) of sticking up for one of the

" alternatives " to AA with someone other than an AA.

I don't think " profiteering " is a fair charge. Why should someone in

the alcoholism field have to work (or do anything) for free? It

certainly isn't done by the Steppers or anyone else except for

" self-help " meetings, which RR simply doesn't have and which, pretty

much across the board, are, for better or worse, " selling " an ideology

of their own. RR doesn't have meetings for what to me seem very valid

reasons.

> Also, Trimpey became extremely anti-intellectual. The AVRT is obviously an

> over- simplification of a complex neural process of addiction in the brain.

> That it can be a useful SINGLE technique in a larger system is not a problem.

Doubtless, AVRT is an over-simplification as you say. However, would it

be more effective if further complicated?

> That it should be MARKETED for " treatment centers " doesn't warm the cockles

> of my heart.

Is it now marketed for treatment centers? That's new.

> Trimpey used to be fond of ridiculing those with advanced

> degrees, who wanted to discuss issues such as these in more detail. It was

> usually his way, or the highway.

If you have ever spent time on a discussion list where there are those

with advanced degrees, there is quite a bit of reason to ridicule them.

The addictions field is long on folklore and religious zeal, short on

science.

Ken Ragge

> That Trimpey is a pioneer, too, is not at question, and most are grateful for

> what he initiated.

>

> Mixing in politics (survivalist as far as I can tell) with ramblings about

> guns and the government, does not seem to embelish his addiction theory.

>

> I say good luck to he and Lois and let the buyer beware.

>

> Piper.

[Guest guest]

Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey

> In a message dated 1/8/01 1:15:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, kenr1@...

> writes:

>

> << f you have ever spent time on a discussion list where there are those

> with advanced degrees, there is quite a bit of reason to ridicule them.

> The addictions field is long on folklore and religious zeal, short on

> science.

>

> Ken Ragge >>

>

> Umm. The thinkers are the ones who do the science?? Yes, please cut

short

> the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism) and

> folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You are

> preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper.

>

Since reliable statistics for meaningful outcomes are so expensive and

difficult to accumulate, isn't politics an important consideration?

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey

> In a message dated 1/8/01 1:15:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, kenr1@...

> writes:

>

> << f you have ever spent time on a discussion list where there are those

> with advanced degrees, there is quite a bit of reason to ridicule them.

> The addictions field is long on folklore and religious zeal, short on

> science.

>

> Ken Ragge >>

>

> Umm. The thinkers are the ones who do the science?? Yes, please cut

short

> the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism) and

> folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You are

> preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper.

>

Since reliable statistics for meaningful outcomes are so expensive and

difficult to accumulate, isn't politics an important consideration?

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

> ~

>

>

> I would have to disagree with your analysis of Trimpey. He is very

hard to

> get along with and too autocratic in dealing with people who were

> facilitators in RR.

>

> It matters not I suppose, but I wouldn't invest time in becoming

part of the

> RR " family " .

>

> Piper

I was a facilitator of RR meetings for 4 years. I never felt any

pressure to run meeting any way, but the way I saw fit.

I didn't know that there was a RR faimly to join.